LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Dec 2015 20:25

Thank you sir! Completely agree. I hope the LCA inspires many more scientists and many more people who want to fly the LCA to join the AF. Both are needed. The arm to give strength to the fist and the hand itself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2015 20:39

In any case a close friend of mine - son of a now deceased Air Force tech officer told me "Hey there's a new plane at Minsk square? Which one is it?"

And last year - on the golf course - two players with me commented on seeing a Tejas take off "That must be an F-16"

So the fellow who posted that comment is definitely not Fali Major. Just a random internet asshole who thinks he knows one fug of a lot. That comment should get no further mileage on this thread. It is Tarmak's problem

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2015 20:48

OneIndia Exclusive: Tejas may create history with flying demo at Bahrain air show

Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M

Bengaluru, Dec 08: Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is throttling to script history probably by becoming the first home-grown Indian fighter jet to have flown outside the country's airspace. If no last-minute glitches (from babudom or technical) get onboard, then Tejas will strut its stuff at the 4th edition of Bahrain International Air Show (BIAS), scheduled from January 21-23, 2016. BIAS-2016 is being held at the Sakhir Airbase.

Senior officials of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and Ministry of Defence (MoD) will brainstorm one last time in New Delhi on December 9 (Wednesday) to take a final call on Tejas' all-historic out-bound flying mission. "The green signal will be given on Wednesday after the crucial meeting. There are many nagging issues that need to be sorted out, including which country it would stop over during ferry to Bahrain," says an official. Two aircraft being readied ahead of the show As this report goes live on OneIndia, it is confirmed that two Tejas aircraft are being readied in Bengaluru, ahead of its possible historic ferry to Bahrain. With just over a month left for BIAS-2016, the officials are racing against time to put up a smooth show. Engineers and scientists in ADA and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are all excited about the bright prospects of Tejas flying at BIAS-2016. Ahead of ferrying the platforms to Bahrain, the HAL-ADA team members are working on a ‘special software build' to enable the pilots have decided to demonstrate extreme manoeuvres. On the demonstration menu are ‘Vertical Square' which demands an 8 G envelope, the ‘Knife Edge' and the ‘Opposite U-turns. The platforms being readied for BIAS-2016 are LSP-3 and LSP-4, out of which one will be doing the flying duties and other on static display. The SP-1, now under the command of Indian Air Force (IAF) and HAL, is likely to be kept as a stand-by in Bengaluru. Tejas was on static display at BIAS- 2014, with India's prying plane AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning Control) hitting the skies. DRDO had then claimed that the products were displayed with ‘the aim of exploring the potential of exporting them to friendly countries in the region.'

During Aero India 2015, Ahmed Al Nemah, then acting Under Secretary for Civil Aviation Affairs, Bahrain Ministry of Transportation and Telecommunications, had held discussions with Indian counterparts on BIAS-2016. The show is expected to see an increased participation by 60 percent since its first edition in 2010. Tejas flying picks up after a lull period The Tejas test-flights have started to pick up momentum after months of lull activities owing to technical glitches relating to the undercarriage. The flight plan was badly hit during the months of May, June, July and August this year. In November bad weather further added to the woes of ADA and HAL. The naval programme too slowed down owing to similar issues. The combined number of flights (all variants minus SP-1) stands at 2998 as on December 8, 2015, clocking around 1926 hours. The Tejas was out flying at HAL Airport on Tuesday.

"To put in perspective, Year 2015 has not been an inspiring one for Team Tejas. But the programme has seen worst challenges and we are confident of moving ahead," says an official. With the SP-2 reaching the flight integration stage at HAL, the programme is now heading towards the Final Operational Clearance (FOC) in mid-2016. An impatient IAF is finally on the Squadron formation mode with the DRDO pinning hopes on bagging 100 Tejas MK-I As orders soon. Flight-testing envelope will be expanded Ahead of the Bahrain trip, Tejas is expected to expand the flight envelope clearance to 8G and at a higher Alpha of 24 degrees and more. "These parameters allow the aircraft to perform at higher manoeuvrability. The demonstrations planned for BIAS-2016 will be different from Aero India 2015," says an official. If mission Bahrain finally gets cleared by Delhi on Wednesday, then DRDO-ADA has to quickly put in place the logistics.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/tejas-may ... 50118.html

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Dec 2015 20:52

^^^ Saw LCA aerobatics over my house today. It is a sign of an air show somewhere. Don't know where or when. Lots of LCAs flying. At least 03 different tail nos., maybe 04

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 08 Dec 2015 21:35

Jingo Kush huaaaaaaaaaa
Sirji, were they flying in formation?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Dec 2015 21:45

uddu wrote:Jingo Kush huaaaaaaaaaa
Sirji, were they flying in formation?

No. Single aircraft aeros. The numerous LCAs flying is from multiple days not just today. Apologies for not being clear.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Dec 2015 23:35

Nice heartwarming news. One day it will touch the sky over France (Paris air show) in glory. One day.

Even though LCA is now a full blown mature product, why a huge team of scientist is required to baby sit it during its stay in Bahrain (and during its pit stops).

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Dec 2015 23:57

That will be a big step for all of India and IAF/ADA/HAL/MOD.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Dec 2015 00:49

8G and 24+ AoA! FOC is near then ... at least from flight envelope pov.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Dec 2015 02:44

Good news indeed, but why pick the Bahrain Air Show for these debuts? Even the EMB-145I was first flown outside India at the Bahrain Air Show.

the Dubai Air Show, Farnborough and Le Bourget are the air shows that get the maximum press, maximum participation. If the idea is to pitch Indian products to a foreign audience, these are the air shows that must be attended.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Dec 2015 04:03

Big win if the Stop over enroute to Bahrain is scheduled for pakiland.

Will make for some good photo op. Aman ki asha and all that jazz.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Dec 2015 09:07

With 3 drop tanks, we may only need to refuel once maybe. Perhaps it will be Bhuj to Muscat and then to Bahrain..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2015 09:34

Remove wings. Load on to C-17. Fly to Bahrain direct

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 09 Dec 2015 10:12

^^ I also thought of the same, but it would be a good show for its ferry range/capability if it is flown directly there on its own.

Good to see SDREs going aggressive with special FCS build for airshow.

Fingers crossed....

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 09 Dec 2015 11:49

Why not make a stop over in Iran? it sends multiple signals aiming at different people. Could offer it to Iran also

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 09 Dec 2015 11:59

Iran is involved in a lot of politics. Oman becoming the first customer for Tejas do exist.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Dec 2015 13:05

uddu wrote:Iran is involved in a lot of politics. Oman becoming the first customer for Tejas do exist.

We have GE engine also. Uncle may not be happy.

I think the basic idea is to have an international market for LCA.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 09 Dec 2015 13:55

deejay wrote:^^^ Saw LCA aerobatics over my house today. It is a sign of an air show somewhere. Don't know where or when. Lots of LCAs flying. At least 03 different tail nos., maybe 04

Deejay saar, sure you are a keen observer.
As per ADA site, between 28th Nov and 8th Dec: PV5 (1 flight), LSP4 (1 flight), LSP8 (4 flights).

No of flights passed 3000 mark.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Dec 2015 14:04

I can't find the link to test flights on ADA website. Can you pls post the link here?

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Dec 2015 14:10

LCA -> 3000 flights

member_29258 · Post by **member_29258** » 09 Dec 2015 14:16

Go to achievements, flight news current year...

JTull wrote:I can't find the link to test flights on ADA website. Can you pls post the link here?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Dec 2015 14:20

https://www.ada.gov.in/images/flighttestnews.htm

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Dec 2015 14:20

Thx. 3002 flights!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Dec 2015 18:10

shiv wrote:OneIndia Exclusive: Tejas may create history with flying demo at Bahrain air show

Written by: Dr Anantha Krishnan M

Bengaluru, Dec 08: Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas is throttling to script history probably by becoming the first home-grown Indian fighter jet to have flown outside the country's airspace. If no last-minute glitches (from babudom or technical) get onboard, then Tejas will strut its stuff at the 4th edition of Bahrain International Air Show (BIAS), scheduled from January 21-23, 2016. BIAS-2016 is being held at the Sakhir Airbase.

... There are many nagging issues that need to be sorted out, including which country it would stop over during ferry to Bahrain," says an official. ....

Tejas was on static display at BIAS- 2014, with India's prying plane AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning Control) hitting the skies. DRDO had then claimed that the products were displayed with ‘the aim of exploring the potential of exporting them to friendly countries in the region.'

... Flight-testing envelope will be expanded Ahead of the Bahrain trip, Tejas is expected to expand the flight envelope clearance to 8G and at a higher Alpha of 24 degrees and more. "

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/tejas-may ... 50118.html

babudom is pure BRF term (was my thought).

konark airport near chabahar is an easy guess

+24* is awesome.. also note the rains have slowed testing this year. global warming works in different ways.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2015 22:24

jayasimha wrote:correction

He told our scientist and def. organisations. to "think" and "work" for something what we need 30 - 40 years later rather that spend resources on current requirement since "we already have all that we need today".......

in a josh to type,, i made a mistake

This is a concept from US R&D. They brainstorm about what would a future 30-40 years from would look like and backward project what technologies are need to get there.
And fund those incrementally based on progress.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Dec 2015 22:55

^ That is DARPA thinking which unfortunately has phases where it is strongly opposed by both establishment S&T community (DSB types) and the short-next-election cycle - sighted ruling class.... That and similar organizations are largely (TTO aside) concerned with what is commonly known as developing 'pre-requirements' that is figuring out what technologies would be required to enable concepts of the future and then setting out to mature those technologies (or production/manufacturing processes for that matter). Some examples include ARPA Net, Maser research leading up to Directed energy possibilities now, and creating synthetic environments and simulation analysis that are now being fully exploited (as Jack Thorpe envisioned) with Live-Virtual construct. The most important portion of DARPA research is not in its programs at all, its in the theoretical scientists and engineers that figure our future concepts before developing engineering challenges that then get handed over to the program managers to develop and demonstrate. Insiders call this funding "questions".

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Dec 2015 00:48

srai wrote:LCA -> 3000 flights

Next would be number of hours 1926+ hrs ... close to 2,000 hrs. Worldwide, IOC tends to happen at 1200 hrs and FOC usually occurs around 2000 hrs.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 10 Dec 2015 14:14

✈Anantha Krishnan M✈ ‏@writetake

Even as an impatient #IAF awaits for #Tejas, HAL unveiled a full-scale model of the fighter at Minsk Square today.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 10 Dec 2015 20:45

Anantha Krishnan's statement is rather asinine. I drive past there everyday. It is a mock-up.
Wonder why he has to make such stupid comments.
And having seen the Tejas, at various Aero India's, HAL has used discarded parts.

there you go Shiv. I am back after being a silent observer for years.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2015 20:52

rajanb wrote:Anantha Krishnan's statement is rather asinine. I drive past there everyday. It is a mock-up.
Wonder why he has to make such stupid comments.
And having seen the Tejas, at various Aero India's, HAL has used discarded parts.

there you go Shiv. I am back after being a silent observer for years.

Welcome back. Did you know that "your" story has gone completely ballistic on YouTube? Although I could make a second video telling the pilots story - which you must have read online by now.

I agree that Ananthakrishnan could have avoided that bitchslap

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 11 Dec 2015 00:39

brar_w wrote: The most important portion of DARPA research is not in its programs at all, its in the theoretical scientists and engineers that figure our future concepts before developing engineering challenges that then get handed over to the program managers to develop and demonstrate. Insiders call this funding "questions".

From what I've observed, each field then gets a set of metrics established to measure progress. This then drives progress since everyone starts to compete to win awards and funding based on making progress on the metrics.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Dec 2015 01:06

vera_k wrote:
brar_w wrote: The most important portion of DARPA research is not in its programs at all, its in the theoretical scientists and engineers that figure our future concepts before developing engineering challenges that then get handed over to the program managers to develop and demonstrate. Insiders call this funding "questions".
From what I've observed, each field then gets a set of metrics established to measure progress. This then drives progress since everyone starts to compete to win awards and funding based on making progress on the metrics.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=1948813#p1948813

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 11 Dec 2015 04:06

shiv wrote:
rajanb wrote:Anantha Krishnan's statement is rather asinine. I drive past there everyday. It is a mock-up.
Wonder why he has to make such stupid comments.
And having seen the Tejas, at various Aero India's, HAL has used discarded parts.

there you go Shiv. I am back after being a silent observer for years.
Welcome back. Did you know that "your" story has gone completely ballistic on YouTube? Although I could make a second video telling the pilots story - which you must have read online by now.

I agree that Ananthakrishnan could have avoided that bitchslap

OT for this thread. Those u tube videos are awesome.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 11 Dec 2015 07:26

TOI has this on HAL's preparation and increase in production capability for increased LCA orders:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 131181.cms

Team LCA gears up for increased orders
Chethan Kumar,TNN | Dec 11, 2015, 06.43 AM IST

BENGALURU: From imported robotic machine to drill holes to Bengaluru based 3D printing of components, Team LCA is gearing up for increased orders for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas for the Indian Air Force.

With IAF increasing its order of LCAs forcing HAL to manufacture 108 aircraft for six squadrons, the defence PSU is scaling up quality and speed.

A robotic drilling machine in the final assembly hangar has reduced the time taken to drill a hole on the wing skin to just over a minute from 25-35 minutes it took manually.

The machine, which needs to drill around 8,000 holes, can manage 66% with the remaining done manually. "That will change soon; we'll soon have more efficiency," LCA division general manager V Sridharan told TOI. HAL is using Bengaluru-based 3D printing for some components. "A proposal to acquire such a printer is being prepared but now, we're outsourcing it," he said.

Sources in HAL said given the Centre's Make in India campaign and to save on time, outsourcing some manufacturing has happened and a few other projects are in the pipeline. The wing assembly has been outsourced to L&T, while 10 vendors will be in the fray for the centre and rear fuselage, for which tenders will be floated soon. "Outsourcing of 33 electrical panels, six mechanical assembly projects making of fin and rudder, etc is under way," they said.

Stating that the second Series Pro duction Tejas is in the final stages of assembly and will be ready for IAF in the next 45 days, Sridharan said: "By the fourth or fifth aircraft, we should be able further reduce the time."

Earlier this year, HAL handed over an aircraft to the IAF, which is undergoing some changes. The second in the series is almost ready . To enhance the rate of production, HAL had late last year sent a proposal to the defence ministry for setting up a second production line.A senior official said the ministry is likely to clear it by February .

HAL has invested Rs 150 crore for capacity augmentation. According to the proposal, HAL is expected to invest 50% of the Rs 1,200-crore estimated cost, while the IAF and the Navy will invest 25% each.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Dec 2015 08:25

deejay wrote:TOI has this on HAL's preparation and increase in production capability for increased LCA orders:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 131181.cms

Team LCA gears up for increased orders
...

The machine, which needs to drill around 8,000 holes, can manage 66% with the remaining done manually. "That will change soon; we'll soon have more efficiency," LCA division general manager V Sridharan told TOI. HAL is using Bengaluru-based 3D printing for some components. "A proposal to acquire such a printer is being prepared but now, we're outsourcing it," he said.

Sources in HAL said given the Centre's Make in India campaign and to save on time, outsourcing some manufacturing has happened and a few other projects are in the pipeline. The wing assembly has been outsourced to L&T, while 10 vendors will be in the fray for the centre and rear fuselage, for which tenders will be floated soon. "Outsourcing of 33 electrical panels, six mechanical assembly projects making of fin and rudder, etc is under way," they said.

...

^^^

Great news on Tier 1 level manufacture/assembly outsourcing of components!

Similar to EF production.

The Indian aerospace industry has has taken a big step forward! This is going to create a whole bunch of Tier1 to Tier3 aerospace manufacturers and assemblers.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 11 Dec 2015 09:03

Had it been some propaganda state like Russia, US or UK, by now we would have started seeing shows on TV, how great LCA is and how it is propelling India to a new orbit. Heroes would have been brought forward and text books would have started taking the examples of Tejas in maths, physics and other engineering problems.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Dec 2015 09:19

^^
+1

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 11 Dec 2015 10:01

Team LCA gears up for increased orders
Chethan Kumar,TNN | Dec 11, 2015, 06.43 AM IST

BENGALURU: From imported robotic machine to drill holes to Bengaluru based 3D printing of components, Team LCA is gearing up for increased orders for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas for the Indian Air Force.

With IAF increasing its order of LCAs forcing HAL to manufacture 108 aircraft for six squadrons, the defence PSU is scaling up quality and speed.

A robotic drilling machine in the final assembly hangar has reduced the time taken to drill a hole on the wing skin to just over a minute from 25-35 minutes it took manually.

The machine, which needs to drill around 8,000 holes, can manage 66% with the remaining done manually. "That will change soon; we'll soon have more efficiency," LCA division general manager V Sridharan told TOI. HAL is using Bengaluru-based 3D printing for some components. "A proposal to acquire such a printer is being prepared but now, we're outsourcing it," he said.

Sources in HAL said given the Centre's Make in India campaign and to save on time, outsourcing some manufacturing has happened and a few other projects are in the pipeline. The wing assembly has been outsourced to L&T, while 10 vendors will be in the fray for the centre and rear fuselage, for which tenders will be floated soon. "Outsourcing of 33 electrical panels, six mechanical assembly projects making of fin and rudder, etc is under way," they said.

Stating that the second Series Pro duction Tejas is in the final stages of assembly and will be ready for IAF in the next 45 days, Sridharan said: "By the fourth or fifth aircraft, we should be able further reduce the time."

Earlier this year, HAL handed over an aircraft to the IAF, which is undergoing some changes. The second in the series is almost ready . To enhance the rate of production, HAL had late last year sent a proposal to the defence ministry for setting up a second production line.A senior official said the ministry is likely to clear it by February .

HAL has invested Rs 150 crore for capacity augmentation. According to the proposal, HAL is expected to invest 50% of the Rs 1,200-crore estimated cost, while the IAF and the Navy will invest 25% each.

Ranjan.rao ji,

While, I wish we focus on the news and developments of HAL and the assembly lines and processes, tier 1 vendors etc, but if one has to understand how our media works then just read the bold part of the report and think "IAF forced HAL

" - one phrase introduced in an otherwise normal report playing subtly on the mind as if HAL is unhappy with the fact that additional orders were received. Forget the trumpeting of achievements and spreading the good news.

IMO, our media / journalists, set the lowest standards in any walk of Indian life. Agreed that there are notable exceptions but the bulk, meaty lot is sub par and they are not capable of quality work, identifying focus areas, recognizing positive change, identifying Indian achievements, drawing parallels with others who were setting bench marks, etc.

The media cannot do the propaganda or spread the good news across as it neither has the intent or technical capability to do so. I think, that forums like BRF fill this void where attempts are made to analyse and dissect each news for interested readers to better follow developments.

For now, based on the news posted, can we analyse if LCA production targets can be met for
> End Mar 2016: Qty (04?)
> End Mar 2017: Qty (+08?) / Total (12?)
> End Mar 2018 and so on till the existing orders are met.

viveksonkhla · Post by **viveksonkhla** » 11 Dec 2015 12:52

I just hope some sane media person picks this up and reads CAG comments:

Defence equipment parameters should be realistic

It has been reported that the secretary to the Department of Defence Production complained, in a lecture earlier this week at the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses, that the military frames such ambitious specifications for equipment being procured that Indian companies get left out of the procurement process - because they simply cannot fulfil those requirements. In doing so, he only voiced in public what many others have murmured in private. What the officer could also have said is that those requirements often baffle the world's most technologically advanced defence companies too. This results in tenders being frequently cancelled and years lost as acquisitions begin anew. Only now has the government begun questioning inflated specifications - termed "staff qualitative requirements", or SQRs. An example of this has been Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's insistence that the Air Force buy 100 or so Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, overruling the protests of air marshals that the fighter was not good enough and did not meet their SQRs.

The framing of SQRs has been criticised by many - but most trenchantly by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) in a 2007 report that audited 37 separate defence acquisitions between 2003 and 2006. After scrutinising 11 SQRs, the CAG found that four had spelt out requirements that were unavailable anywhere in the world. In four more cases, the requirements did not meet the military's stated operational needs. And in seven cases, there was no way of testing whether or not the equipment even met the SQRs. Many suggest that a key reason behind unrealistic SQRs is the military's desire to get the "best of the best". Officers framing SQRs combine the best qualities of several different equipment types into one, disregarding the well-known fact that weapons design involves trade-offs between different parameters. For example, a tank designer has to balance mobility, firepower and protection. The more armour is slapped on for additional protection, the less mobile that tank will be. For that reason, a tank cannot simultaneously be the world's best protected, most heavily armed, and also the most mobile. Similarly, in framing SQRs for a fighter, the more weaponry one wants the aircraft to carry, the less space there will be for fuel, reducing its range. An SQR cannot demand high weapons load as well as long range. Yet, by combining top-of-the-range parameters, officers have often arrived at SQRs that simply cannot be met.

A successful "Make in India" policy requires a deliberate and well-considered review of specifications, so that weaponry being bought is within the design capability of an industry still at an early stage of the learning curve. It is natural for soldiers, sailors and airmen to demand the world's best weaponry when putting their lives on the line. Imports are not the only solution; the answer will often lie in relatively simple equipment that costs less, can be procured in larger numbers, easily handled by those members of the armed forces who are relatively less educated, and built and maintained by Indian defence companies. These will inevitably improve incrementally as indigenous scientific and technological skills develop and mature.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 385_1.html

vina · Post by **vina** » 11 Dec 2015 15:27

Driving past Minsk square and the sweet fiberglass model of the Lca trainer. Always amazed at how cute it looks and indeed how small it actually is. From the Ajeet I always used to see there the Tejas is not very different in size, probably a little bigger, but my word what a jump in capabilities.