Indian Military Helicopters

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 06 Nov 2015 18:16

i think we should supply them with Arjun, LCA as well? let afganistan be our trial ground?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Nov 2015 18:44

manjgu wrote:i think we should supply them with Arjun, LCA as well? let afganistan be our trial ground?

Sales is always about support and a logistics support chain. Without the latter sale means nothing. Taliban will knock out one Arjun and it will be posted all over internet as Indian tin can. That will not be good for Indian industry.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 06 Nov 2015 19:02

ofc ofc..i meant provide all that it takes to test the machines... spares, tech support or train afghans for maintenance...

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Nov 2015 22:51

Nick_S wrote:4 Mi-24 to be transferred to Afghan.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 683593.cms

Dafuq? We need these choppers to be in India or worst supporting our troops in un missions.

I would like them to be deployed in gun only config in naxal areas for sanitizing DZs.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 06 Nov 2015 23:04

Four Mi-25 attack helicopters for Afghanistan: India’s bold move

We can test firing powers of LCA in Afg. Two sgould be enough to show case video of bombing Talibunny hideouts in areas bordering pakistan afg border.

Now we know there is a different govt in power in delhi.

During the visit of Afghan National Security Advisor, Mohammad Hanif Atmar to Delhi later this week, it is expected that India will announce the transfer of four Mi-25 attack helicopters to Afghanistan. As per agency reports, an Indian security official has confirmed that, “We are going to give them the helicopters, this is a one-off arrangement”.

Afghanistan’s military has been in dire need of helicopters. Besides approaching India, Kabul had reportedly asked Russia directly for the same. Even earlier, US had purchased smaller helicopters from Russia for the Afghan air force but that was stopped after Moscow intervened in the Ukraine.

Afghanistan during President Hamid Karzai’s rule, sought military hardware from India but the deal did not go through during the UPA government. The equipment requested by the Afghan government in 2013 included tanks and artillery to boost land-based firepower; Kabul had asked for helicopters but these were for medical evacuation and not attack helicopters.

By agreeing to transfer attack helicopters now, India will send a strong signal of cooperating with Afghanistan in its fight against Taliban. The Since the Taliban leadership is based in Pakistan and Pakistan continues to support the Taliban leadership, it also sends out a strong message to Islamabad. Such a deal would need the tacit approval of the US, and because the equipment is of Russian origin, the transfer will have to be approved by Moscow. With so many countries coming together, notwithstanding the number and vintage of helicopters involved, the transfer assumes greater geo-strategic significance.

Another indication of the significance of India’s decision to transfer the Mi-25 helicopters is the critical shortage of attack helicopters in its own inventory. India’s Mi-25 helicopters are the export version of the old Soviet Union’s Mi-24D helicopters and were inducted in the No. 125 Helicopter Unit of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in May 1984. They were deployed against the LTTE during the IPKF operations in Sri Lanka. Their usage during the Kargil War, however, brought out their limitations as the Mi-25 has a service ceiling of 14,500 feet.

Besides Mi-25, the IAF also has the Mi-35 attack helicopters which are the export version of Soviet Union’s Mi-24V helicopters. There are currently two units of Mi-25 and Mi-35 helicopters; they are army assets for use with Strike Corps although they are still manned, controlled and operated by the IAF.

Both the Mi-25 and Mi-35 helicopters are obsolete now and need replacements on priority. They will be replaced by the 22 Apache helicopters – PM Modi signed a deal for them with Boeing during his visit to the US in September. They will form part of the IAF inventory. The army has also asked for an additional 33 Apache helicopters for its three Strike Corps.

The first Apache helicopter will be inducted in the IAF after two years. Once India transfers the four Mi-25s to Afghanistan, there will be a shortfall of attack helicopters for India’s strike corps operations till the Apaches are inducted and operationalised. That India is willing to leave that gap in its offensive military capabilities in order to help Afghanistan indicates the importance Delhi attaches to defeating terror in the neighbourhood

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Nov 2015 08:43

manjgu wrote:ofc ofc..i meant provide all that it takes to test the machines... spares, tech support or train afghans for maintenance...

OT for this thread but have you thought about how we can create a logistics chain for supplies to Afghanistan without direct land access?

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Nov 2015 13:56

shiv.. the choppers are of russian origin. maybe india does not have direct access to Af. but finding spares. logistics chain etc should not be a problem with russian help.. we have to have approval of the russians even before we can sell them. spares etc can also be routed thru iran. stocking spares etc for 4 or more choppers can be done IMHO.

srai · Post by **srai** » 07 Nov 2015 14:09

shiv wrote:LCH set to achieve final clearance in November
The indigenously designed and built Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is all set to achieve final clearance anytime this month. Following that, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will start serial production of the attack choppers. The 5.8 tonne multirole attack chopper is intended to play a major role in providing close air support to ground forces and is the only attack helicopter in the world that can operate at heights of 12,000 feet.

“Having completed all performance trails, final clearance is expected anytime soon from the Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) in Bangalore. After that we will integrate weapons and finalise configuration as per the requirements of the end users — the Army and Air Force,” a senior HAL official told The Hindu.

HAL already has a firm order for 65 from the Air Force and 114 from the Army. This number is expected to go up given the army’s plan to have attack helicopters embedded in all formations for close air support.

HAL officials explained that unlike fixed wing aircraft which need Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC), helicopters usually get a final clearance. The government had earlier informed Parliament that production plans for LCH have been made from 2017-18.

How long does it take for the weapons integration and other user requirement configurations? Can production begin before that is done?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Nov 2015 09:05

Should not take too long. The systems are very similar to Rudra!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Nov 2015 10:13

^^^"User requirements" in Indian context is a relative term. Will depend on who you are asking

But lets hope for the best, as our projects always follow "Murphy's law" by heart.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2015 17:16

There was an earlier report that we would be bankrolling Afghan mil-eqpt. which would be of Ru origin. With the LCH coming of age and requirement in the hundreds,we could easily in time pass off veteran attack helos to the Afghan army.Armed versions of both Dhruv and MI-17Vs are both being inducted in large qty,which will complement the attack helos.I wonder what the cost of an LCH is in comparison with an Apache.The last time one ckd,the Apaches were phenomenally expensive,almost that of a front-line fighter.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Nov 2015 21:17

The news of Apache sale with co-manufacture by TASL made it to local news in San Francisco.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 09 Nov 2015 21:29

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -with-tata

Boeing to Make Apache Attack Helicopter Body in India With Tata

srai · Post by **srai** » 10 Nov 2015 04:27

Sid wrote:^^^"User requirements" in Indian context is a relative term. Will depend on who you are asking

But lets hope for the best, as our projects always follow "Murphy's law" by heart.

That is what should have us worried about. If other indigenous efforts, like the Arjun MBT or the LCA are anything to go by, LCH may get stuck in R&D hell for the next 5-10 years with shifting user requirements and the desire for perfection before any induction.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Nov 2015 09:06

LCH versus WZ-10 Watch LCH run rings round the WZ-10

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9Pkv2aeIHc

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Nov 2015 12:40

^^^ Wonderful Shiv Sir. Enjoyed the video.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Nov 2015 16:08

^^
Thanks deejay. I have a couple more "helo specials" coming up that I am working on.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 26 Nov 2015 12:23

The above pic is from Simon Watsons IronFist 2013 album on BR.
Is there a second person in the rear seat?

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 26 Nov 2015 23:05

There's provably some form of communications hatch between the 8 man cabin at the back and the pilot's cockpit. So that's prolly the door gunner.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 27 Nov 2015 09:13

^^^^^^^
I always thought that the MI35 was a 3 man crew with the third radio operator kind of person sitting behind the cockpit....

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 27 Nov 2015 13:17

^Nope, there may be a crew chief, but there is also space for an 8 man squad.

Shubham · Post by **Shubham** » 27 Nov 2015 16:00

^^ A legacy of twin engine helicopter fleet of Russian Origin. The guy is a Flight Engineer and has a small seat in the cramped space connecting Captain cockpit to the passenger cabin.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 Dec 2015 19:10

India May Order 50 Ka-226T Helicopters From Russia, Make 150 More In India

India could buy 50 Ka-226T Helicopters off- the-shelf from Russian helicopters and manufacture up to 150 more In India under the Make-in-India program.

Russian sources told defenseworld.net that among the proposals being considered for this project was import a quarter of the order from Russia and manufacture the rest in India. A second option to manufacture the full order in India was also being considered.

Meanwhile a Tass report quoting an Indian MoD statement stated Friday that India has approved a proposal for joint production of Ka-226T helicopters.

The statement didn’t specify the number of helicopters, which India might purchase. It quoted a source close to the Indian Air Force stating that "an initial order for about 50 helicopters" was possible, the Russian news agency said.

In May 2015, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) had accorded Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for procurement and co-production in India of the Russian Ka-226T Helicopters for the Indian Army and Air Force.

The plan is to build the helicopters in India under the “Make in India” program. The state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and a couple of private Indian industrial enterprises are reportedly interested in partnering Russian helicopters for this project.

The total demand for light utility helicopters from the Indian armed forces is said to be around 400. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi had earlier proposed to Russian President Putin that the Ka-226T built in India not only for Indian consumption but also for exports.

The Kamov Ka-226T is a versatile helicopters which can be configured as a utility, attack and special purpose chopper.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 08 Dec 2015 12:15

Other defence deals, which may on the table include the purchase of 48 Mi-17V5 attack helicopters for the IAF and 50 Kamov multirole choppers for the Indian Navy.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ussia-1160
Don't know how reliable the source is, but more Kamovs for the Navy?!

And 48 More V5s over the 139(80+59) already ordered?(If so, I could not be happier)
Sikorsky S70B deal updates have fizzled out as well.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Dec 2015 13:57

Nothing Made in India- direct import from Russia? My gut feeling like many media reports, I dont think we will spend 70,000 crores on S-400, goes against the grain of current thinking. This is the arms dealers are deliberately putting out mis information for the Indian public.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 09 Dec 2015 11:42

Update on the S70B deal:

The Indian Navy is finally set to open price negotiations with Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation for buying 24 Seahawk S-70B shipboard multi-role helicopters (MRHs) for its operational requirements.

As for the current status in negotiations with the Indian Navy, the chief of the naval staff, Admiral Robin Dhowan, when asked about the Seahawks, replied that the process was now in an "advanced stage".

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 32012.html

mody · Post by **mody** » 09 Dec 2015 13:22

Finalizing 24 S70B would be a good deal. Should go ahead with it ASAP. For the balance requirement of 100 plus medium helos for the navy, we can also explore the option of partnering with the Ruskies for a follow on to the Ka-27/28 design. This would make sense if we can be equal development partners in the platform and get the latest and greatest anti-sub warfare suite in the helos, that mother Russia can offer. No watered down export version.

This way we will get export version american anti-sub hardware and software in the S70B and P8I's and latest Russian ware in the new helos, along with a few of our own tweaks. We can also use the medium heli platform for our own version of the Ka-31, the DRDO developed AESA radar.
The Russians themselves need a replacement for the Ka-27/28 in the near future as well and partnering with us, gives them a 100-120 numbers of additional helos to reduce the cost.

For the IAF and IA we have already settled on the Mi-17V5 as the standard medium heli.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Dec 2015 14:13

If our ABM systems have been perfected,like Akash,they would certainly be ordered. Unfortunately,anything Russian is taboo for some worthies,little objectiveness,more's the pity.Perhaps they prefer the Patriot!

I still can't fathom the 50 KA-226 order for the IN.What the IN desperately needs are multi-role med helos like the NH-90,Sikorsky whatever.Over 100 are needed.The major surface combatants are juicy targets for Paki subs without integral ASW helos,as their ASW weaponry does not possess long range ASW missles/long-endurance torpedoes.The IN's sub fleet is in a real crisis and the top priority should've been given to ordering more subs from abroad as an interim measure ,including a second Akula to meet the PLAN challenge.
The desi LUH is also supposed to be on the verge of making its first flight. The naval version of the ALH is already in service,without ASW eqpt. but is being used in the utility role. The KA-226 as of now has no ASW naval variant.One would be very interested to hear how the IN has plumped for this LUH.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 09 Dec 2015 18:12

IAF For Indian EW Suite For Mi-17 V5 Fleet
By SP's Special Correspondent

November 30, 2015: In a commitment towards Indian avionics and electronic technology that have made a global mark in recent years, the Indian Air Force has announced its intention to procure and install electronic warfare (EW) suites comprising Radar Warning Receiver (RWR), Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and Counter Measure Dispensing System (CMDS) on all Mi-17 V5 helicopters. Additionally, limited Mi-17 V5 would also be integrated with Laser Warning Receiver (LWR) and Directed Infrared Counter Measure (DIRCM). The proposals are invited from Indian vendors only, stipulates the request for information that is likely to be hotly contested by a raft of firms that have generated capabilities in this field through collaborations and organic research in recent years.

http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=518 ... 7-V5-Fleet

DIRCM for Mi-17. Sounds good. Would likely expand to LCH and Dhruv as well.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2015 06:19

Today it is 44 years since the start of the "Meghna airlift" and the "Sylhet airlift". These events were the masterful use of helicopters by the IAF and Army to transport troops across broad rivers in east Pakistan, bypassing Pakistani centers of resistance and bottling up Pakistani troops so that the Indian army advanced towards Dhaka and liberated Bangladesh in what was later to be called a "Blitzkrieg without tanks"

I have tried to tell the story in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7v9-UJ4xj0

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 10 Dec 2015 20:02

MOSCOW: India and Russia are set to sign a landmark deal to jointly manufacture new generation of light military choppers under the Make in India initiative during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Moscow later this month.

While the inter governmental contract for producing over 200 of the Kamov 226 choppers will be inked, a top Russian official has said that other details, including the selection of the Indian partner for the $ 1 billion deal will be decided later.

"We have been discussing the production of the Ka 226 in India for a long time and we hope that during the visit of the Indian Prime Minister we will sign the agreement. Russian Helicopters and its subsidiaries and component manufacturers are ready to supply kits for its assembly in India as well as to localize production," Deputy Minister Andrey Boginskiy of the Russian Ministry of Industry and Trade told ET.

The official said that a second level agreement would be signed between Russian Helicopters and the Indian partner at a later date. However, he said that it was up to India to choose who would manufacture the chopper under the Make in India plan.

"We are ready to work with any partner chosen by the Indian side. The main thing is that it should be financially and technically capable of taking on such a large project," Boginskiy said. As reported by ET earlier, the Russian side had already sent two letters to India, saying that it ready to partner with both Hindustan Aeronautics Limited ( HAL) and Anil Ambani owned Reliance Defence for the contract.
The initial choppers will be produced from Russian supplied kits but would be progressively indigenized. The Russian official said that France, which supplies the engines for the chopper, is already on board for technology transfer as well.

"This helicopter uses French engines and we have had talks with them and they are ready to sell, service and repair and carry out the whole cycle of work in India for the project," the official said.

The light choppers are desperately needed by the Army to replace its fleet of ageing Cheetah/Chetak helicopters that are deployed to support troops posted at high altitude areas, including the Siachen glacier. While the initial contract would be for 200 choppers, the number is expected to swell much beyond due to the massive demand as well as applications for the civil market.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 121810.cms-Manu Pubby

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Dec 2015 20:09

^Do not follow, why the KA 226 when we have the Dhruv?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Dec 2015 20:14

because one is half the size of the other and IA needs a small helo. BRF has had this discussion 100's of times.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 10 Dec 2015 20:27

Rahul M wrote:because one is half the size of the other and IA needs a small helo. BRF has had this discussion 100's of times.

OK, I will lookup the previous pages/archives on this one. Realize it is half the size et al, but from a capabilities and operations cost perspective, did not see a huge difference. Anyways, will read up on all there is to it. Thanks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Dec 2015 20:41

Rahul is right but I must point out one more thing. India needs literally hundreds of helos and there is no way Dhruv can meet the demand either in numbers or capability for some roles.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Dec 2015 09:23

ShauryaT wrote:
Rahul M wrote:because one is half the size of the other and IA needs a small helo. BRF has had this discussion 100's of times.
OK, I will lookup the previous pages/archives on this one. Realize it is half the size et al, but from a capabilities and operations cost perspective, did not see a huge difference. Anyways, will read up on all there is to it. Thanks.

One clue is in how the IA deploys helicopters in Dhruv and Cheetah/Chetak/Ka-226 class.

Dhruv forms the Utility Helicopter (UH) Squadrons of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC). A new class which came into being with induction of Dhruv. Cheetah/Chetak form part of the Recce & Observation (R&O) Squadrons of the AAC. And Ka-226 will end up being part of these squadrons.

As the name suggests, R&O squadrons and flight undertake reconnaissance and observation missions, along with moving senior officers around. For example, the winter patrols along LOC are undertaken by R&O flights. Using Dhruv in such roles will be non-economical.

From what I understand, the Combat Aviation Brigade intended for each Corps will have 1 x R&O squadron, 1 x UH squadron and 1 x Rudra squadron. LCH will fit in the structure as it enters service. In case of Strike Corps, it will be Apaches.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 11 Dec 2015 14:22

The right question to ask is ... why Ka-226 when we have LUH coming online during next years.

Few inducted Cheetals are performing excellent, may be we can introduce few more until LUH is online. This way we have most of the helicopter using the same engine, big logistic benefit.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 11 Dec 2015 14:36

RKumar wrote:The right question to ask is ... why Ka-226 when we have LUH coming online during next years.

A bird in the air is worth several at HAL, Bengaluru.
Not to mention that the LUH has not even flown yet.
Plus the Ka226T passed the Army's trials and they are in dire need of replacing the Cheetahs.
The first RFPs were issued in 2003(IIRC).

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Dec 2015 15:55

Turbomeca's Ardiden 3C engine has been provided to the Chinese for their AC352.

Ardiden 1 series (Shakti) used by HAL has 1400 shp, while the Ardiden 3 series will be 1700 to 2000 shp.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Dec 2015 16:58

Yes buy the Kamov and be held to ransom for decades.