LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Dec 2015 17:41

Saw LCA doing some aerobatics from my terrace today afternoon. a bit far and too high, but luckily a clear day it was. 10min of shear pleasure. Then it came towards my home, deployed LG right over my head, banked left and went for landing approach peacefully. Made my otherwise extremely dull day wonderful.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2015 20:42

deejay, There is a Swedish Kongsberg 3-D printing machine used for aerospace mfg. Uses laser sintering for metal parts.
Some group in US is buying a dozen 3-d printers from Kongsberg and setting up shop for aerospace component mfg co.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 11 Dec 2015 21:06

ramana wrote:deejay, There is a Swedish Kongsberg 3-D printing machine used for aerospace mfg. Uses laser sintering for metal parts.
Some group in US is buying a dozen 3-d printers from Kongsberg and setting up shop for aerospace component mfg co.

Ramana Sir, that gives me an idea. But me no engineer

In the mean while I am willing to work in any aerospace - defence company willing to employ a non technical veteran.

The 03-D printing technology breaks a lot of barriers in entering into manufacturing. We should be seeing lot of action on these lines in India shortly.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Dec 2015 11:05

The 2015 CAG report has this paragraph in it

Delays in execution of LCA project with respect to project definition,
deficiencies in planning and financial management were commented upon in
Para 50 of Report No. 3 of 1989 of the C&AG of India, Union Government
Defence Services (AF&Navy) for the year ended 31 March 1988. Delay in
execution of Phase-I of LCA project which included development of Multi
Mode Radar, Flight control system, Digital Electronic Engine Control,
integration of Kaveri engine on LCA, etc and consequent up-gradation of
MiG-Bis aircraft, import of Su-30 MKI aircraft to cover the shortfall in fighter
aircraft, were highlighted in Para 28 of the Report No. 8 of 1999 of the C&AG
of India, Union Government, Defence Services (Air Force & Navy) for the
year ended 31 March 1998.

I tried to find but could not, the two older CAG reports mentioned in this (CAG website has reports only after 2000). Can anyone find these docs?? Could have some interesting info in them.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Dec 2015 21:18

A month before demise, Dr Kalam wished India’s RTA mission took off again
http://www.oneindia.com/india/a-month-b ... 54892.html

Bengaluru, Dec 13: Former President Dr A P J Abdul Kalam wanted aerospace brains in India to chase the dream of developing a homegrown Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA), an idea that got grounded many times.

Speaking to OneIndia on Sunday, Dr Kota Harinarayana, currently a visiting professor with IIT Mumbai said that Dr Kalam constantly reminded the scientific community to get the plane project back on the flightpath.

"My last meeting with Dr Kalam was during the last week of June this year and he wanted me to push various stakeholders to put some life back to the RTA project. He always said that India must have an own RTA programme. It was his intense desire," says Dr Kota.
Dr Kota is widely revered as the man who gave wing to India's desi fighter jet programme - the Light Combat Aircrfat (LCA). Often referred to as the ‘Father of LCA programme,' Dr Kota was closely associated with many missions of the former President.
Interestingly, India's transport aircraft dream was initially called as RTA-70 (70-seater) and later it became NCAD (National Civil Aircraft Development) project, with a 90-seater mandate.
The National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) played a major role initially and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) too joined hands later. The project saw feasibility studies undertaken by many experts, but finally NCAD ran out of funding and the idea was shelved quietly.
Dr Kota says he hasn't given up hopes and is pursuing Dr Kalam's vision. He is of the firm opinion that RTA should be a turbo-prop one, so that it gives an advantage to military operations.
Turboprop RTA best for military operations
"Two schools of thought always existed - the turbofan and turboprop -- and many feasibility studies were also held. I am backing turboprop for the simple reason that it will be easy for our armed forces. Short runways are always an advantage for military operations and only a turboprop can offer that," says Dr Kota.
He said all the five existing major RTA players are offering 14 different variants of turbofan platforms, including Embraer (Brazil), Bombardier (Canada), Superjet (Russia), MRJ (Japan) and ATR21 (France-Italy).
"ATR and Bombardier are also offering turboprop platforms and we saw a market potential in that segment. Dr Kalam wanted us to push the idea again with the government and industry so that a PPP (Private, Public Partnership) model was in place. He also wanted a proven international player be roped in as a risk-sharing partner," says Dr Kota.
Time will prove the worth of Tejas
He said only if India took on the challenges head-on, can we master technologies and inspire the industry.
"Now everyone is happy with Tejas and the knowledge the programme imparted to scientists, engineers, industry and the academia. It is the collective responsibility of all those who believe in India's aerospace capabilities to get the RTA programme going," he adds.
Dr Kota, who was the former head of Aeronautical Development Agency, also expressed his satisfaction over the government's decision to order 100 modified Tejas MK1As.
"Good decision and this will further the industrial growth in India. Unless the Indian Air Force buys Tejas in large numbers, how will others show interest? Time will prove the worth of this fighter made in India. Any amount of buying from abroad cannot build technology capabilities within the country," says Dr Kota, who is also now associated with IIIT, Jabalpur.
On reports of a possible outing by Tejas at the upcoming Bahrain International Air Show, the man who gave a major part of his life to the programme said: "More skies Tejas paint its success story, better days for India's aeronautical missions."
(The writer is a seasoned aerospace and defence journalist in India. Currently a Post-Doctoral Fellow with University of Mysore, he is a Consulting Editor (Defence) with OneIndia. He tweets @writetake.)

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Dec 2015 07:56

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 165514.cms

World's smallest combat jet's Mark-II avatar to be longer

Chethan Kumar | TNN | Dec 14, 2015, 03.32 AM IST

BENGALURU: The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas, pegged as the world's smallest combat jet, will become longer by 500mm-550mm in its Mark-II avatar, which is expected to take off after 2021, the defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has said. Besides, the cost of Mark-IA, the upgraded version of the series production (SP) fighters, will be Rs 190 crore up from Rs 160-crore estimated last year, due to integration of more systems as requested by the Indian Air Force.
READ ALSO: Tejas, once combat-ready, will be able to outgun the Pakistan JF-17 fighters
The IAF, which among other improvements has specified the need for higher thrust in the upgraded version - it means MK-II - will migrate to the GE-414 engine from GE-404 engine with that.
"For this, we will have to insert one fuselage that is larger by 500-550mm than the present one. This means that the aircraft has to be made bigger," HAL chairman T Suvarna Raju told TOI. The LCA has three fuselages - the front, centre and rear - and the change is expected in the centre one.
Arguing that the tweaks in design to accommodate the fuselage may seem simple on paper, Raju said: "But that would mean a change in the airframe and once the aircraft changes in size, a set of new tests will have to be done."

LCA division general manager V Sridharan said: "It is keeping in mind all this (the long process for the changes) that we said we would accommodate 43 of the 57 requests for action (RFAs) in the MK-IA version, which will have the 404 engine. Now that it's been accepted and the standard of preparation (SOP) is frozen, we will go through with this for the 100-odd aircraft."

Raju added that most of the 43 RFAs will be accommodated from the fifth or sixth aircraft that is to be produced for the IAF.
On the cost of the LCA MK-IA increasing by Rs 30 crore compared to the SP version, Sridharan said: "The cost is bound to go up when new things have to be integrated. And when some of the things include complex systems like the electronic warfare suit, new radar and mid-air refueling, it will (cost will go up)."
He said the MoD and the IAF have been intimated of this and that HAL is going ahead with the improvements as sought.

Edited out comments

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Dec 2015 08:07

deejay wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 165514.cms

World's smallest combat jet's Mark-II avatar to be longer

... Besides, the cost of Mark-IA, the upgraded version of the series production (SP) fighters, will be Rs 190 crore up from Rs 160-crore estimated last year, due to integration of more systems as requested by the Indian Air Force.
...

At current rates of 1 USD to 67.06 INR, this is the fly-away cost of LCA:

1 x LCA Mk.1 IOC-II/FOC -> INR 160 crore = USD 23.86 million
1 x LCA Mk.1A -> INR 190 crore = USD 28.33 million

For a squadron of 20 LCA, the fly-away cost would be:

20 x LCA Mk.1 IOC-II/FOC -> INR 3200 crore = USD 477.2 million
20 x LCA Mk.1A -> INR 3800 crore = USD 566.6 million

For the entire 120 LCA on order, the fly-away cost would be:

1 sqdn x LCA Mk.1 IOC-II/FOC -> INR 3200 crore = USD 477.2 million
5 sqdn x LCA Mk.1A -> INR 19,000 crore = USD 2.833 billion [(INR 3800 crore = USD 566.6 million) x 5 sqdn]

Total (6 LCA squadrons): INR 22,200 crore = USD 3.31 billion

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Dec 2015 08:16

srai wrote:...

At current rates of 1 USD to 67.06 INR, this is the cost of LCA:

LCA Mk.1 IOC-II/FOC -> Rs 160 crore = USD 23.86 million

LCA Mk.1A -> Rs 190 crore = USD 28.33 million

It is not just the smallest but the cheapest, most robust and most all round capable 4th gen light fighter in the world. And I will smack a hammer on the head who argues with me on this.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2015 10:08

So, the date for LCA Mk-II first flight goes up from 2019 to 2021? Good we have had the LCA Mk-1A or it would've been another wild goose chase for the IAF.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Dec 2015 13:46

^^^

Does the IAF still have requirement for LCA Mk.2? AFAIK, the IAF has requirement for only 120 LCA so far and this is getting fulfilled through Mk.1 and Mk.1A.

LCA Mk.2 has always been more of a naval requirement and a lot more design changes have been incorporated in that regard. The dimensions of the NLCA Mk.2 is that of a Mirage-2000-class "medium" fighter.

The IAF should probably be follow the NLCA Mk.2 and use that as a baseline for its AF version. With a more powerful engine F414, design it to be Mirage-2000-sized class fighter and give it longer legs since that is what the IAF desires nowadays. Order another 6 squadrons (120 units) of it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2015 18:26

I like this RFA from IAF, that ensures a solid framework to verify and validate in tranche model development.
We should perhaps have a body of people from IAF and DRDO do periodic user acceptance tests (no matter ready or not), to get into a TDD (IT defn) methodology.

aim for 1-3 RFAs per test per month.

---

an armchair RFA from me would be: having taken the fuselage modifications, they could as well increase radar t/r panel cross-section IOW increase space by the width of the fuselage for reducded frontal drag, reduce the height of the cockpit., basically compressing the front look.

increased space, more real estate for retractable refueling pod, extra large radar (200km range), and room for under the nose/cockpit EW suite.

reducing the height of the fuselage can reduce the drag (basically go for horizontal major axis (ellipse)). of course it does not mean, cutting legs and heads.

did I just said something that would make it look like Rafale?

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 14 Dec 2015 20:34

rohitvats wrote:So, the date for LCA Mk-II first flight goes up from 2019 to 2021? Good we have had the LCA Mk-1A or it would've been another wild goose chase for the IAF.

Wrt the highlighted part above ... the below is what really happened:

Fearful of having to do something with the goose, once it's caught, IAF quite disingenuously dressed up an Falcon as a goose and asked the SDRE scientists to go-fetch.

Oh what an entertainment it was for the TFTA IAF, and it's assorted cheerleaders, watching the wild chase for the Goose by the SDRE scientists, for all these years.

Until ofcourse, the SDREs finally figured out the fast one being pulled on them and trapped the high-flying falcon-dressed-as-a-goose and delivered it to the TFTA IAF - however this did spoil not only the ongoing entertainment but also all hopes of showing-off their mastery over-a-videshi-eagle to all and sundry, that they had been cherishing all along.

Thus, all that is left now is the helpless snide remarks as above and jaziya-collection-spree-from-the-videshi-masters by certain worthies, for all clowning-commentary-sideshow services to the above wild-goose chase spree over the years.

So there ...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2015 20:48

Maitya, True that.

I hope we now stop all snide remarks and follow the LCA induction.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2015 21:13

The Mk2 timeline could have logically been pushed out to account for the extra work to now introduce an intermediate Mk1A.
Radar, EW, weapons, 43 improvements out of the 57 which were originally planned for Mk2, now available in Mk1A itself including LRU reallocation.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2015 21:16

SRai, indeed. In fact the above quote should be Naval version of LCA Mk2 (which is what the program is, now) will have its first flight 6 years from now. No certainty the IAF has committed to a Mk2 today. If they do, its likely that bird will fly later than 2021 because the concern is the IAF will repeat its earlier mistakes and not coordinate with the Navy over a joint Mk2. So any AF Mk2 which is significantly different needs more time.

srai wrote:^^^

Does the IAF still have requirement for LCA Mk.2? AFAIK, the IAF has requirement for only 120 LCA so far and this is getting fulfilled through Mk.1 and Mk.1A.

LCA Mk.2 has always been more of a naval requirement and a lot more design changes have been incorporated in that regard. The dimensions of the NLCA Mk.2 is that of a Mirage-2000-class "medium" fighter.

The IAF should probably be follow the NLCA Mk.2 and use that as a baseline for its AF version. With a more powerful engine F414, design it to be Mirage-2000-sized class fighter and give it longer legs since that is what the IAF desires nowadays. Order another 6 squadrons (120 units) of it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 14 Dec 2015 22:02

If 2019 turns out to be what we all fondly hope and aspire for then IAF ( and Army too) top management would have been totally revamped and line of succession would get tuned to dharmic calls of duty. No more wild goose chase then. 19 licenses in defence sector has been awarded to private players and surely a nascent MIC would have developed by then catering to indic interests.These licenses were pending for four years and got awarded in one year and half of Dharmic rule. So LCA too got ordered despite goalposts kept changing. But now it is for HAL to deliver the goods. From what I read it appears to be on right track with induction of several new equipment designed to improve efficiency and automate many tasks. SOP has been frozen for the orders received. HAL is spending 150 cr in manufacturing facility ramp up. I only wonder why they do not go for more investment in enhancing the capacity given that LCA-Navy would also come along and perhaps share lot of components with both MK-1A and MK-2. It is good to know that HAL is outsourcing lot of jobs to private players, something that we felt ought to be done. I hope to see two sqdrns of LCA flying a reality now. In UPA-3( still born) it would have been wild goose chase.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Dec 2015 22:11

What we need is a 24/36 AC production facility with aggressive marketing drive. May be with more Khan developed equipment like radar added to LCA export version and marketed through Khan MIC complex.

Alternatively a Kaveri+ powered LCA for exports with all Indian systems.

There is huge market out their for light and cheap fighters of 4th Gen as most of the Mig21 and its clones are getting old. This opportunity shall be fully explored.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Dec 2015 22:23

The radar is not going to be a significant (or any at all) roadblock to foreign sales. First and foremost you need to have a production line to meet domestic demand and then you need to develop an FMS like program to not only market a product, but also provide assured logistics, training and support to customers and this would need integration with foreign suppliers as well (GE for engines, Israeli's if their kit is used). This is the single most important aspect of a foreign arms sales program and both the Soviets/Russians and the US have mastered this aspect and China has made some great advances in this area (particularly with its drones). Then there are the geopolitical considerations that play a significant role in promoting a particular defense system. The current cheap fighter market already has quite a few options ranging from the Thundaaar at the very bottom to the Gripen C at the very top with the T-50 and F/A-50 in the middle. All three of those options are atm reliant on propulsion that is from a source other than the nation marketing it (Russia in the case of the Thundaar and GE/US in the case of the F/A-50 or Gripen). A Kaveri version will obviously give 100% control from an export process pov but by when can it be ready? and what alternatives would exist in the marketplace by the time it arrives?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Dec 2015 22:30

How good will be an LCA with current version of Kaveri? I mean will it be a reasonable multi-role fighter? I am a mango man here. May be a higher thrust version can be developed for fully controlled export version. But a commercial decision needed to be made. As per some report I read there are some 5000 AC up for replacement. A cheap and reasonable product in the market aggressively pushed by India may find good number of buyers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Dec 2015 22:42

The problem is Kaveri apple has not fallen on Mango heads. It would be a national joke if we don't get Kaveri as is into one of the prototypes to collect metrics. Silence means K9 didn't bark at all in Russia for basic thrust.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2015 23:38

Seriously, the criticism these days on LCA has reached new lows. Aroor says its a *facepalm* moment that HAL has put an LCA at Minsk Square. So did the ex-air chief, each of them citing their own reasons of what Minsk square stood for. How about people let HAL to decide what to showcase in front of its headquarters? How about they define "aircrafts that they deemed momentous to HAL/India"?

I, for one, am very happy. Because 1) I am a Tejas-fan of the first order and 2) After all these years of turf-wars, HAL is showcasing LCA at its gates. If this is not a sign of a corner turned, then what is?

LCA Mk2 will come. Both for AF and the Navy. It will be a great aircraft, based on the lessons learnt on LCA and AMCA. I am happy that Mk1A has been ordered as a stop gap. It was the only way forward. Three chairs to Parrikar! 8-10 LCAs at the price of one Rafale, three cheers to ADA/HAL! 120 LCA Mk1/Mk1As, three cheers to IAF. We have really turned a page here.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Dec 2015 00:08

Great post Indranil. LCA is the defacto MMRCA. Long live the Rafale- the dead Rafale!!

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 15 Dec 2015 00:27

How about they define "aircrafts that they deemed momentous to HAL/India"?

Surely the MiG-23 qualifies with its... uhh... glorious record in the IAF? Look at the sheer number of airframes on display all over the country.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2015 00:50

Chaiwallah says Tejas with AESA radar will dominate any other platform it will go up against. Used word, dominate.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 15 Dec 2015 01:10

Are we talking EL-2052 or desi one? I guess it doesn't matter.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2015 02:47

Around the world, in different languages, there is one well-tested philosophy: "One miracle per project!". Nobody waits for the perfect prototype, except in India. We have an LCA Mk1: a plane which can fight. We will build 40 of them in 4-5 years. So, the production of the first LCA Mk-1A should start in 3-4 years. So, the first prototype should be ready in 2-3 years, meaning that its build should start within the next 12-18 months.

So, realistically there is no time for finalizing Mk1A with upcoming things. They have to finalize it with existing solutions: EL-2052, known rearrangement/recombination of LRUs based on known maintenance issues and solutions, auxiliary inlet louvers, quartz radome and IFR probe by Cobham, multirack/sharper/tandem pylons, EW-suite from the PV-1 repackaged as a pod. At most they can change the hump behind the cockpit for better aerodynamics. Basically, it should be an exercise of repackaging Mk-1s in the best possible way, incorporating lessons learnt and solutions ready to be ported to the Mk2. There should be no gap in production because we are developing a perfect Mk-1A prototype.

member_29267 · Post by **member_29267** » 15 Dec 2015 03:53

Cross-posting

indranilroy wrote:Okay, this report by Ajai Shukla had more tidbits
Cutting-edge Israeli radar wins air force approval for Tejas fighter
Elta is ready to offer ELM-2052 with no development cost/time overhead if it is accepted by at least two aircrafts. HAL says its Mk1A, Jaguars and possibly the Mirages could use these radars. If IAF/HAL's plans work out and MoD doesn't dilly-dally:
1. All 123 Jaguras will be re-engined. 61 will be upgraded with the Darin-3 upgrades and the EL/M-2052 radars. Jaguars with the AESA radar, state of the art short-range and medium-range A2A missiles and 56 kN of dry thrust and 88kN of wet thrust, can easily defend itself.
2. 100 LCA Mk-1As will be having the EL/M-2052 radars
3. The recently upgraded Mirages will be upgraded with the EL/M-2052 radars.

That is about 200 radars.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Dec 2015 04:16

indranilroy wrote:Around the world, in different languages, there is one well-tested philosophy: "One miracle per project!". Nobody waits for the perfect prototype, except in India. We have an LCA Mk1: a plane which can fight. We will build 40 of them in 4-5 years. So, the production of the first LCA Mk-1A should start in 3-4 years. So, the first prototype should be ready in 2-3 years, meaning that its build should start within the next 12-18 months.

So, realistically there is no time for finalizing Mk1A with upcoming things. They have to finalize it with existing solutions: EL-2052, known rearrangement/recombination of LRUs based on known maintenance issues and solutions, auxiliary inlet louvers, quartz radome and IFR probe by Cobham, multirack/sharper/tandem pylons, EW-suite from the PV-1 repackaged as a pod. At most they can change the hump behind the cockpit for better aerodynamics. Basically, it should be an exercise of repackaging Mk-1s in the best possible way, incorporating lessons learnt and solutions ready to be ported to the Mk2. There should be no gap in production because we are developing a perfect Mk-1A prototype.

It think the current order is only for 20 Mk.1 before production is to switch over to 100 Mk.1A. But as is Mk.1 could continue to be produced until Mk.1A is ready for production.

From the latest news reports, it seems most of the 43 enhancements planned will be fitted into the first Mk.1 production lot from 5th or 6th airframe. I am guessing those will be FOC configuration that will include quartz radome, IFR probe, multirack, BVR, gun, supersonic tank? etc. Remaining for Mk.1A would be internal rearrangement for better maintenance, some weight reduction, some aerodynamic refinements, AESA radar and EW pod.

World's smallest combat jet's Mark-II avatar to be longer

...
LCA division general manager V Sridharan said: "It is keeping in mind all this (the long process for the changes) that we said we would accommodate 43 of the 57 requests for action (RFAs) in the MK-IA version, which will have the 404 engine. Now that it's been accepted and the standard of preparation (SOP) is frozen, we will go through with this for the 100-odd aircraft."

Raju added that most of the 43 RFAs will be accommodated from the fifth or sixth aircraft that is to be produced for the IAF.
...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2015 04:41

You are right. And if this is the path being taken then it is just awesome. Production should not be held hostage to development. Otherwise, the other side of knowledge and feedback suffers, namely operationalization.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 15 Dec 2015 04:52

For al practical purposes Kaveri is a gone case not even a deranged Kaveri is being thought of
Its core so called Kabini is the one they are playing with.

I still,can not fathom, the fact that if Kaveri has developed only fraction of the targeted thrust say 27 KN it is till a reasonable engine for a twin engine aircraft like Marut

Why not marry debated Kaveri to a proven airframe and make CLAW air craft?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Dec 2015 04:57

Spinster wrote:For al practical purposes Kaveri is a gone case not even a deranged Kaveri is being thought of
Its core so called Kabini is the one they are playing with.

I still,can not fathom, the fact that if Kaveri has developed only fraction of the targeted thrust say 27 KN it is till a reasonable engine for a twin engine aircraft like Marut

Why not marry debated Kaveri to a proven airframe and make CLAW air craft?

^^^ If you knew what you were typing, you would have realized what an exceptional fool you made of yourself. Your next attempt at trolling would be dealt with accordingly. Consider this a soft warning.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 15 Dec 2015 07:31

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/10 ... ssing.html

Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) is developing an indigenous AESA Fire Control Radar called UTTAM. It is being developed for the LCA Mk2 and Mk1 (presumably Mk-1A will be upgraded with the system) and also other aircraft upgrades such as the IAF's Jaguars and MiG-29Ks.

The timeline for the indigenous Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar has been set at 2017, two years from now. At Aero India 2009, it was revealed that the 3D MMR project has been superseded by the new 3D AESA FCR project led by LRDE. This Radar has the capability for Air to Ground mapping and targeting. This "hybrid" MMR has successfully undergone trials, and will be supplied for the initial LCA Tejas fighters of which 2 Squadrons have been ordered.

Now i dont understand the hurry to let in the Israelis through the backdoor.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2015 07:44

tough question, but 2017 means, IAF can expect only by 2020.
so, we could have them upgraded. this also gives them some AESA hands-on to give feedback to LRDE.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 15 Dec 2015 08:18

ELM-2052 in Mirages? Sounds ridiculous.

member_29247 · Post by **member_29247** » 15 Dec 2015 08:33

For the record

Part of DRDO's bold decision, confirms DG Refusing to divulge the finer details, Dr K Tamilmani, Director-General (Aero), DRDO, confirmed to OneIndia that the Kaveri project will be scrapped. "Yes. These are part of the bold stand being taken by DRDO. Whereever we have found bottlenecks for long time, with no realistic solutions, it's better to move on. It is an honest stand we are taking," Tamilmani said. When asked whether the decision was a fall out of the recent remarks made by Prime Minister Narendra Modi asking DRDO to come out of the delay trap, the senior official refused to make a direct comment. "If you are fit to run only for 50 km, why attempt 100 km? DRDO has realized its mistakes of the past and we have no hesitation in taking some bold steps," he said.

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/bengaluru/onein ... 65505.html

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 15 Dec 2015 08:39

If we agree to the Israeli terms there will be no orders for the uttam for at least 5-7 years after it is slated to be completed, by which time I suspect it will be buried. I'd rather get the first few Mk1As with the current radar and ask the Israelis to FO.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2015 09:01

srai wrote:^^^

Does the IAF still have requirement for LCA Mk.2? AFAIK, the IAF has requirement for only 120 LCA so far and this is getting fulfilled through Mk.1 and Mk.1A.

LCA Mk.2 has always been more of a naval requirement and a lot more design changes have been incorporated in that regard. The dimensions of the NLCA Mk.2 is that of a Mirage-2000-class "medium" fighter.

The total IAF requirement was for 220 LCA - whether this comes in form of LCA Mk1A alone or LCA Mk1A+Mk2, remains to be seen. But what is given is that one the force structure stabilizes with LCA Mk1A, more Su-30MKI and whatever Rafale being finally inducted, the IAF will have more cushion to wait for LCA Mk2. IMO, once LCA Mk2 reaches a certain critical stage, I expect balance of LCA orders to be be filled by LCA Mk2.

With respect to the bold part - this somehow has become an urban legend on BRF. CAG Report clearly states that when the LCA committee met for the first time (in 2007 or 2009), the IAF had straightaway raised issue with the weight problem. And from these discussions emerged the requirement for LCA Mk2.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 15 Dec 2015 09:09

So a new radar(2052 or uttam) means testing all of the following
- validating the different modes
- new radome (assuming change in radar frequency etc)
- re-testing of existing/new missiles
- Physical, electrical and control law changes

Agreed that at some point in time the AESA would surpass the current MMR. The timelines look pretty tight, if HAL even manages to get it done. This is discounting all the weight reduction promised by HAL.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Dec 2015 09:25

maitya wrote:
rohitvats wrote:So, the date for LCA Mk-II first flight goes up from 2019 to 2021? Good we have had the LCA Mk-1A or it would've been another wild goose chase for the IAF.
Wrt the highlighted part above ... the below is what really happened:

Fearful of having to do something with the goose, once it's caught, IAF quite disingenuously dressed up an Falcon as a goose and asked the SDRE scientists to go-fetch.

Oh what an entertainment it was for the TFTA IAF, and it's assorted cheerleaders, watching the wild chase for the Goose by the SDRE scientists, for all these years.

Until ofcourse, the SDREs finally figured out the fast one being pulled on them and trapped the high-flying falcon-dressed-as-a-goose and delivered it to the TFTA IAF - however this did spoil not only the ongoing entertainment but also all hopes of showing-off their mastery over-a-videshi-eagle to all and sundry, that they had been cherishing all along.

Thus, all that is left now is the helpless snide remarks as above and jaziya-collection-spree-from-the-videshi-masters by certain worthies, for all clowning-commentary-sideshow services to the above wild-goose chase spree over the years.

So there ...

All valid points except for one minor details: The scientist promised to deliver a falcon when they'd not been able rear a sparrow! And inspite of the objections to contrary by those whose business is falconry, insisted on calling it a falcon. Finally, one some sense was knocked into the collective head of scientists and production agency, did they end up addressing the actual concerns. And thus, you've LCA Mk1A which ended up addressing IAF concerns which bedeviled the Mk1.

Lesson to scientists and 'patriots' on this forum: Unless you make a weapon system which addresses end-users requirement, it will remain a science project. And if you cannot achieve what YOU promised from the word go, say so rather than blaming the services for asking unobtanium.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Dec 2015 10:02

Chaiwallah input more: Lot of pressure on HAL to deliver. Regular monitoring and expectations from MOD also clear. Also legacy of a lot of mess from UPA era where HAL assets were being used by certain individuals for political purposes and on top of it, HAL bore the costs.

AF is also being asked to be rational. SQRs, needs being monitored. "This minister asks why do you need this". Big focus as has been posted on BR is survivability and serviceability of current assets. Orders being placed now will take several years to arrive. AF quick inductions is a myth, radar order was quoted as example. Orders placed several years before first one reached AF. Even gizmos need time to use and fix, apparently no vendor is immune or has a particular lockdown though maintaining legacy Russian stuff is a huge challenge, in fact AF has been frank with Russia that they must and should resolve all pending issues to India/AFs satisfaction and future cooperation is dependent on this.

Also proposal has been put that all 3 services must and should coordinate acquisitions. Right now RFI/RFP are still being delivered piecemeal.
Huge issue with unrealistic asks and changes is that there is no one person who remains in charge of the program. Multiple people are posted and rotated out. So original needs and why's and wherefores get lost.