Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2015 07:55

in terms of large DDG hulls they are building them at a rate not seen in history except in the heyday of the DDG51 build program when I believe they were inducting some 3 ships annually.

13 other heavy DDGs before this, spread across 051C, 052B, 052C, 052, 051B

plus 27 054 class frigates of 4000t and dozens more in the 2000t class.

not even the khan was building ships at this rate in the cold war.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Dec 2015 08:07

They better have stuff to defend.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Dec 2015 08:23

That applies equally to us if not more.

vina · Post by **vina** » 11 Dec 2015 08:53

Noob pooch: it is known that IN uses thicker guage steel on its ships. That must account for higher ship displacement. I am wondering how much lighter will Kamorta be if it were made using 8 MM or 5 mm steel

Light ship weight out of total displacement will be around 2% for a large vessel, for a smaller vessel (say a fishing boat /trawler/ say upto 100m length) will be a bit higher say 4% max.

So using 8mm or even 11 mm gauge plates instead of 5 mm or so the soviets use will at best make around a marginal difference and considering the displacement of the ship of between 1500 to 3500 tons we are talking about, it is a rounding error.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 11 Dec 2015 09:24

It is 1 .5 hr flight for commercial flights from Shanghai to Fukuoka which is the southernmost post in Japan. Add another 1 hr to Tokyo Bay. There is the island Jeju? in between this route which looks to part of SoKo.

As of today, the PLAN is not even in a position to attack Japan let alone Pearl Harbor or the LA/SD/Seattle. They need at least 8 Nimitz class carriers to impose a blockade on Japan. This involved at least 100+ capital sized ships + more Subs to secure the sea lanes to protect the carriers when they cross over to east side of Japan. Eleven has a lot of work to do if they want to get past the first chain of islands. The other nations are like a pack of dogs who will never allow the PLAN to come out unmolested in the Pacific ocean. If this is the state in East China Sea how does the PLAN realistically hope to dominate the IOR where its only noteworthy proxy has less than 10 capital ships. The conclusion I am drawing is that the bogey of PLAN streaming across the Malacca straits into the BoB is a overstated one for the next 2 decades at least.

Shanghai-Tokyo route

Looking at this I am thinking that the primary threat to NE India will be from SE China in Yunnan where PLAAF aircraft can take off with full load and attack bases in Assam and AP. To counter this IAF Sukhois need to be prepared to take off from North A&N Islands to Yunnan (10 hr commercial) or Tezpur to Yunnan. IAF in Assam needs to be prepared for attacks from PLAAF from North (Tibet) as well as East (yunnan)

Tezpur Yunnan

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2015 09:59

^^ thats what the akashs and SRSAMs are for - A&N is too far away to matter.

> blocade

this can be done by submarines, if the PLANAF can defend the skies over the operating areas and keep LRMP planes at bay. but a war with japan will devastate cheen economy also given how deeply tied they are. its far far easier to pick on someone like vietnam or philipines and beat them up...and thats precisely what they are aiming to do. US will go to war if japan were attacked and it looked like they could not manage...or atleast keep the sea lanes open to east and pump in supplies to japan , USN will think 10 times before going in to defend vietnam (not an ally) or philipines (former colony and ally, but weak in economic and military importance)

if the PLAN even sends a fraction of its ships - like say 5 DDG + 10 FFG + 2 carriers + 3 nuclear subs + 4 supply ships thats a powerful strike force.....

japan is one country that could have a good use case for brahmos - land, air and sea borne. philipines is another. I expect they are working on some hypersonic ASM.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 11 Dec 2015 10:25

Vietnam and India are the countries for whom US is least likely to come to for support. However Vietnam is also the country that is most prepped psychologically to take on the Chinese. Maybe the Cambodians can canpressured to stab the Vietnamese in the back as a diversion.

Philipines is too far away but the least prepared to take on the Chinese should a conflict break out in the near future. Their Navy is still not too strong to keep the USN off balance. But the PLAN will not risk taking on the USN at this stage in the game.

It has to be a country where the Chinese can bring their land forces into play since their 2nd artillery corps can be deployed.

Hence it will be the Taiwanese, Vietnamese or us!!!! Depending on who the Chinese assess as the weakest opponent and they have better logistics.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Dec 2015 10:30

in east asia, taiwan and vietnam are small but poisonous opponents. plus taiwan is a huge src of investment and technology the cheen craves and needs. philipines is a least risk target for a slapping - large, blundering, no superpawa backing, disputes with cheen, weak military ... all they have to do is make an example out it, humiliate the khan by making it stay out of the beatdown and all others will fall in line......will be a huge step up and expansion of strategic space for them if they can fight a short sharp naval war with philipines and let them know who is the big dog.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 11 Dec 2015 10:45

Japan (and korea) is base to the 7th fleet which comprises a bunch of carriers, arleigh burke destroyers, cruisers, marines and submarines. How exactly will cheen even attempt a blockade when there is such a large force to overcome?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 11 Dec 2015 13:26

brahmos at the most could be shared with Vietnam and Japan ... as it is one of our ace card. It is self defeating, to share it with everyone.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Dec 2015 13:42

er, Brahmos is not the only arrow in the quiver and certainly is not to be handed out. Eg: considering the black market for them, we can arrange the older-gen chinese made Iranian/xyz Silkworms to be carted to these shoals by philippines and installed with the new supersonic boosters we developed for the Styx.

Either the chinese mount every ship with a CIWS (if they trust their own Silkworms to work) to deal with it or they call the bluff and try attacking these batteries with the newer Indian engines (and god knows what new electronics). That way no tech goes out of hand, but chinese' cost increases exponentially.

we need to stop peppering every naval post with "brahmos", addictive as those vertical launch videos are

These are pricey

John · Post by **John** » 11 Dec 2015 17:58

Singha wrote:even the P15 has 48 shtil SAMs coming off 2 launchers. while A and B have 32 only with no sign of barak1.
one may argue the barak8 is a far superior missile while it is, but when N number of planes/subs release M missiles it doesnt matter you need atleast 1 missile per inbound and thats where A & B are under armed.

Kolkata looks like they were designed to carry pdms not barak1. And mainly they were designed to be cheaper/ affordable they cost slightly more than Shivalik and cheaper than other similar vessels in its class. Even 15b are lot cheaper than P17A based on proposed budget.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Dec 2015 20:38

Aditya G wrote:Noob pooch: it is known that IN uses thicker guage steel on its ships. That must account for higher ship displacement. I am wondering how much lighter will Kamorta be if it were made using 8 MM or 5 mm steel.

Some perspective on the small vs large ASW ships:

http://defencyclopedia.com/2015/09/18/k ... -corvette/

AdityaG, Ship survivability in war not in storms is a function of armour.
- UK ships with Al superstructure in Falklands would go up in flames with one hit from the Argentinians. - USN destroyers used to take lots of punishment in WWII due to their heavy armour.

Light weight ships are one shot wonders.
-Not for any sustained campaign.

Also displacement has bearing on ship seagoing capability in storms. Recall the Petya/Nanuchka class that was sunk in Bay of Bengal.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Dec 2015 00:10

yep, agree. i was only wondering if the displacement figures for our ships seems inflated due to heavier steel. Vina answered that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2015 08:47

ships with many watertight chambers and loaded with oil (tankers) proved almost impossible to sink in WW2. the oil would burn out in a while in the hit chamber, rest would be isolated and the massive buoyancy of the oil would keep the ship floating very strongly.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2015 08:54

M-48 torpedo is designed to detonate under the keel of a surface ship, breaking the ship's back and destroying its structural integrity.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Dec 2015 11:15

M-48 torpedo is designed to detonate under the keel of a surface ship, breaking the ship's back and destroying its structural integrity

This goes back to German designs in WW1. By WWII most torpedoes did exactly this. The US torpedoes had huge problems in doing this reliably before getting fixed.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Dec 2015 11:36

How Many of these are needed for Nimitz class carrier, pretty tough to do that, or you need a tactical nuke to get enough water force to break the Keel of a Nimitz?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Dec 2015 15:28

the russians designed a 23" diameter Type65 wake homing torpedo of enormous size to tackle the carrier problem. 450kg warhead. and option of 20KT warhead for a real ww3 situation.
kursk type subs have a couple of special tubes for it.

http://weaponsystems.net/image/s-lightb ... e65_v2.jpg

nice diagram of how the skhval works
https://rwhiston.files.wordpress.com/20 ... utaway.jpg

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2015 18:45

These torpedoes make use of water density to transfer explosive force. Japanese had higher explosive charge at start of WWII.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2015 18:50

Aditya_V wrote:How Many of these are needed for Nimitz class carrier, pretty tough to do that, or you need a tactical nuke to get enough water force to break the Keel of a Nimitz?

It's not water force. It is a bubble, so that moments after the explosion the ship is sitting on water at the two ends and an enormous air bubble below. Ships are not designed to sit like the span of a bridge with their weight resting on two ends, so the weight of the middle makes it fall into the bubble, causing it to break

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 12 Dec 2015 22:48

I dont know, but this chewing gum theory sounds all hocus pocus to me. I suspect a simpler answer, you cant sink a carrier. Any carrier. Even varyag without engines. They all have to go to alang at the end of life.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 13 Dec 2015 00:15

you dont need to sink a carrier, you need to ensure that no planes can take off from it - either by destroying runway using cluster munitions etc., or by hitting its power source so that launch abilities are hindered.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 13 Dec 2015 04:03

maxratul wrote:you dont need to sink a carrier, you need to ensure that no planes can take off from it - either by destroying runway using cluster munitions etc., or by hitting its power source so that launch abilities are hindered.

Kh-22 with a 1000 kg shaped charge is a beast in this regard.

vina · Post by **vina** » 13 Dec 2015 05:53

shiv wrote:It's not water force. It is a bubble, so that moments after the explosion the ship is sitting on water at the two ends and an enormous air bubble below.

Yes. The air bubble expands and then contracts and then collapses spewing a high speed jet upwards towards the surface

Ships are not designed to sit like the span of a bridge with their weight resting on two ends, so the weight of the middle makes it fall into the bubble, causing it to break

Not true. What you described are called sagging and hogging conditions which every ship is designed for (simple cases, wave trough in the middle of the ship and wave crests in the stem and stern of the ship , and wave crest in the middle and troughs at stem and stern).

Pliss to watch JooToob on this by a Desi.

And on how the ships actually behave in rough seas (this is for a large cargo ship, for a small boat/trawler, the motions will be violent)

The ship is exactly like a bamboo . Flexible, and strong. The secret of the strength of the bamboo is the solid nodes along the length, which is exactly what the bulkheads of the ship are too . The steel is flexible. So if it absolutely rigid, it would snap into two. Always think of a ship as a long flexible bamboo rod floating on water.

Now what a torpedo does is, because of the shock and the bubble effects, it increases the hogging and sogging way beyond design limits and the ship cracks into two and the final jet shooting upwards severs it into two.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2015 09:01

vina wrote: Now what a torpedo does is, because of the shock and the bubble effects, it increases the hogging and sogging way beyond design limits and the ship cracks into two and the final jet shooting upwards severs it into two.

Knew about the jet (from my experiments with truth) - didn't realise it was important

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Dec 2015 17:46

Key points

New mixer for large scale solid propellant boosters developed indigenously

Dr S Christopher, Secretary,
Department of Defence R&D
and DG DRDO, inaugurated the
largest Vertical Planetary Mixer
(VPM) of 3000 litre capacity in
Advanced Centre for Energetic
Materials (ACEM), Nasik, on
26 October 2015. Speaking on
the occasion, Dr Christopher
congratulated the team ACEM for
the achievement in self-reliance
and urged to gear up for future
challenges.
The mixer, built by Central
Manufacturing Technology
Institute (CMTI), Bengaluru, is
first of its kind in the country and is equipped with three
agitators made of CF8 steel with helical flute design.
A heavy-duty flame-proof electrical
motor of 80 kW with VFD drive rotates
the agitators in controlled axial and
planetary motions that can mix propellant
slurries of high viscosity (up to 1,00,000
Poise) in change-can bowls. Safety
mechanisms for protection of overload,
over-current and bowl overpressure and
over-torque are included in the design.

Details on several programs:
Dr Vemana Venkateswara
Rao, Sc H and Project Director,
Agni 3, obtained his BE in Mechanical
Engineering from AU College of
Engineering from Vishakhapatnam
and MTech (Thermal) from NIT,
Warangal. He has been awarded MBA from IGNOU,
New Delhi. He obtained PhD (Mechanical Engineering),
from JNTU, Hyderabad and received the Best PhD
Thesis Award from JNTU, Hyderabad in 2011

Since 2011 as Project Director, Agni 3, he has
delivered missiles at site and static training missile for
the regiment after providing training to the regiment. As
a Technology Director, SPRITE (2007-2014), he was
involved in managing a group of scientists and officers
for the design, development, integration and static
testing of various solid rocket motors of all programmes
of missile complex (SF&D, ANSP, ASTRA, HELINA,
PJ-10, AD, NAG, LRSAM etc.)

SF&D - Strategic Forces (aka Agni)
ANSP - Advanced Naval Systems Program (aka K-15/B-05)

Dr Reddy has made significant contributions in
providing solutions to a wide range of technological
issues by establishing welding technology for similar
and dissimilar advanced alloys. He focused on the
welding of armour steels, enhancement of ballistic
performance of armour steel welds, welding technology
for non-weldable Al alloys, incompatible materials
joining, ceramics-metal brazing, and enhancement of
weldability through microstructural control for difficult-to-
weld class of alloys. Dr Reddy and his team successfully
fabricated the nose cap shell for submarine launched
ballistic missile, through an innovative application of
Friction-stir welding.

Another Gent

Later as System Manager; he designed,
developed, realized and productionised for the first time
state-of-the-art brush-less DC Motor-based High power
ElectroMechanicalActuation System for underwater/
aerodynamic control of K-15 Missile System.
As Technology Project Leader, Shri M Ugender Reddy
developed four types of ElectroMechanicalActuation
System (1 rotary and 3 linear) for variety of programmes
like AD and K-15. During the process, he established
facilities for characterisation of permanent magnets,
winding of BLDC motors and evaluation of actuators.
As an offshoot, Agni and HSTDV also used the
technologies in realization of EMA.
In 2009, he was assigned the role of Project Director,
Medium Range Surface-to-Air Missile, an internationally
collaborated weapon system programme with Israel as a
turnkey project for IAF. The programme involves design,
development, production, deployment and support for
22 years. Under his able leadership, the programme
has graduated from drawing board to proto hardware
realization and qualification. He guided the programme
to achieve its multi-faceted goals satisfying multiple
stakeholders (design authority/international partner,
customer, certifying agencies etc.). The programme has
already realized hardware for first deliverable firing units
and expected to go for flight trial soon prior to handing
over to IAF. The programme has also realized its first
deployment site

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsletter/2015/dec_15.pdf

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Dec 2015 17:52

For the TLDR types

The programme has already realized hardware for first deliverable firing units
and expected to go for flight trial soon prior to handing
over to IAF. The programme has also realized its first
deployment site

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Dec 2015 07:19

It is always helpful to have USD 3 Billion dollars of confirmed orders without even first test flight. Will MoD sanction USD 3 Billion of confirmed orders for Astra or Akash-2, or AAD?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 14 Dec 2015 08:43

https://performancegurus.net/modified-i ... next-year/
Modified Indian combat jet to test-fire supersonic cruise missile next year

They are both of Russian origin and are made in India. Some time next year, a modified combat jet will test-fire a supersonic cruise missile in what will amount to a quantum leap in the firepower of the Indian Air Force (IAF).This will also make the BrahMos nuclear-capable short-range missile, a joint project between India’s Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia’s Federal State Unitary Enterprise NPO Mashinostroyenia (NPOM), capable of being operated from land, the sea and the air.India will be only the second Asian country, after China, capable of delivering a cruise missile from the air. According to a defence ministry official, one frontline Sukhoi Su-30MKI combat jet, the most potent in the IAF’s inventory, has already been upgraded for being armed with the BrahMos missile, which has a range of around 300 km and flies at a speed of Mach 2.8 – almost thrice the speed of sound.Another aircraft is also being upgraded and is likely to be delivered in the first quarter of 2016, the official, who spoke on strict condition of anonymity, told IANS.According to sources, the modification to the fighter includes hardened electronic circuitry to shield this from the electromagnetic pulse of a nuclear blast.Along with the aircraft, the missile – whose airframe is built of titanium and high-strength aluminium alloys, giving it a high-speed terrain-following profile – was also modified with a reduced booster and fins for stability.It can be released from a height of 14,000 metres to 500 metres. After release, the missile free-falls for 100-150 metres, then goes into a cruise phase and finally the terminal phase at 15 metres from the target.The airborne version of the missile is also lighter than its sea and land counterparts.An official said a decision on arming other IAF jets with the BrahMos will be taken after the Su-30 tests are done with. However, there is some talk of developing a smaller version of the BrahMos for the Rafale, 36 of which are being bought from France, and the Indian Navy’s carrier-borne MiG-29s.The proposal for arming the Su-30s was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in October 2012 and the IAF is to get over 200 air-launched versions of the BrahMos.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Dec 2015 22:13

Looks like the 40 Brahmos capable Su-30 MKIs are also going to be dual tasked for the nuclear role with the ALA (Air Launched Article) missile. A black project in every way.

The Secret K missile family, Unnithan wrote:
Air-Launched Missile

Range 200 km

Weight of missile 2 tonne

Warhead 500 kg

length 4 m

Status Hypersonic missile project called the Air Launched Article. Designed to fit under the belly of a Su-30MKI. First prototype by 2012.

Air launched Brahmos is 2 tons plus and is Mach 2.8 with 290km range.
ALA above is 2 tons is Mach 5+ with 200 km range.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Dec 2015 22:22

this is why our corps need prahaar in numbers.

houthis smacked a big Saudi airbase second time and a bab el mandab camp with tochkas and converted sa2 missiles today. 150 kia, two colonels and eqpt damage.

heard on inet.
;-+Tochka is no scud...
They also used Scuds to good effect on other occasions.
But it speaks of their military sense that they use these assets in the intended role. They could just as easily lob them on a Saudi city for terror value.

Because most poorer states use them as poor man's terrence, many people fail to realize that short range ballistic missiles in soviet doctrine are division level artillery.
They're basically a "canned airstrike" a division commander can use to attack high value targets.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Dec 2015 12:31

Jhujar wrote:https://performancegurus.net/modified-i ... next-year/
Modified Indian combat jet to test-fire supersonic cruise missile next year
. . . Some time next year, a modified combat jet will test-fire a supersonic cruise missile

In November 2012, Defence sources said that firing of live missile against designated targets would take place towards the end of 2014. In October 2014, BrahMos Chief Dr. Sudhir Mishra said that a dummy missile would be air-dropped from a Su-30 MKI early 2015 and the actual missile would be fired in March, 2015. He later said in mid-September, 2015 that the air-launch tests will commence from November, 2015. In November 2015, the HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju sounded very positive of imminent tests. According to a October 2015 report, the first test, a dead weight one, of the BrahMos integrated Sukhoi was likely to take place soon.

We are now hearing of 'sometime next year'.

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 17 Dec 2015 13:17

Such news have been making headlines from years that next year the real testing be taking Place. Though considering its complexity and understanding the Brahmos is now 15 Years of development , India must Plan what type of system it needs in the next 10 years to start Planning now.

Monthly review should take place to ensure delivery and tests are made within the Budgetted Figures.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2015 14:00

Karan M wrote: the Air Launched Article.

Gotta love the name. Reminds me of a young doctor seeing an unconscious 90 year old man let out a load of stool (crap) for the first time was moved enough to exclaim "Materials! He has passed materials!"

member_28911 · Post by **member_28911** » 17 Dec 2015 16:00

Defence Acquisitions Council clears Rs 39,000 crore procurement of 5 S-400 air defence systems.

DAC also cleared 6 Pinaka missile regiments for Rs 14,600 crore

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 17 Dec 2015 16:46

S-400 down to 5 systems from 12

but the article mention 6000 missiles are to be procured which is good.

Maybe they will manufacture the remaining 7 systems (missiles at-least) at home under Make in India or better get DRDO to push for our VLR-SAM (not barak8) project .

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 17 Dec 2015 17:10

^^ Which could also mean that they are fairly confident about our own ABM and PAD programmes not to mention Akash.

Chaiwallah says ABM/PAD is well on track!!

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Dec 2015 17:29

I don't like any imports but one can live with S-400 purchase as it is game changing strategic purchase. Also I hope we are getting some important ToT in sensitive areas which will help DRDO (where-ever they may be stuck is some pending programmes). Or something like help in launching an indigenous Yasen Class SSN. Fine print & associated agreements may be as important as the main deal is such huge purchases.

Hopefully for Mid Range SAM we will press ahead with Akash-2 & AAD (rather then Bark-8 = Fake JV= No real ToT)

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 17 Dec 2015 17:42

AAD and Prahar is somethings which are not not in the news. Prahar also could be game changer.