Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan-Nov 21, 2015

[member_29247]

Suddenly I now have revise my opinion of Herpal Bector ji uvacha dang we all ganged up and. Sent him packing, with our over confidence in ... MAD capabilities.
Hope some one restores the sanity mine I mean

man my brain is humming in our chanikiyan spin of Modi ji shadi dawat khana

While shehnayee is playing

begani shadi may Abdula diwana....

Aisle man mauji ko mushkil hai samjana


Curtsy Jish Desh may Ganga behtaa hai......movie *ing Raak Kapoor and the very Oglalable Padmini...

[Baikul]

^^ A request Spinsterji - could you please keep your posts readable? All these musings are just befuddling.

[ramana]

Also Spinsterji getting emails asking you to tone it down. Folks remember your decade old stance of running down Indians during crisis.

[Raja Ram]

An appeal to all here. While it boils our blood that this incident has happened with the full complicit support of Pakistani establishment; we need to go beyond our emotional impulse when reacting in public. Like everyone else I am simply astounded by the response of our PM and his choice of words. It would have been better if he had maintained silence after condemning the attack as a terrorist one; waited for confirmation of who was behind it and then publicly state his decision on whether to resume talks or not. As a PM of India, I do not want him to state such vague "enemies of humanity" crap!

I would also like to point out that while the PM's stop over created a lot of noise, it was very clear that nothing concrete has been discussed and the only thing that happened was an agreement for resumption of talks. With this attack, that should have been put into question once again.

Whatever it is, let us not get into the handwringing headwhacking mode just as yet. Give it some time. Just my take

[ldev]

Pak condemns attack, Modi says soldiers ‘did not let enemies of humanity succeed’

Have to highlight some puke-worthy statements in this article....

Modi said “enemies of humanity” had attacked India

Sorry Mr. Modi, it was Pakistani terrorists who attacked India.

Foreign Secretary level talks between the two countries are due to begin on January 15. The Pathankot attack would not derail those talks, the government said on Saturday. “This process (talks) cannot be destroyed due to one attack…...

So how many attacks will it take to stop these talks? And how many more Indian lives?

Home Minister Rajnath Singh said that while India wanted peace with Pakistan, it would give a “befitting reply” to terrorist attacks. “Army jawans, NSG and the Punjab Police are giving a befitting reply to the attack… Pakistan is our neighbour and we want good relations not only with Pakistan, but all our neighbours. We also want peace, but if there is any sort of terrorist attack on India, we will give a befitting reply,” Singh said.

These two words "befitting reply" should be banned from official use in India. All that they do is highlight the utter impotence of all responses in the past and the present.

Sometimes I feel that the last true PM that India had was IG.

[ramana]

Now! now! She gave us the Emergency also and many young men were sterilized under her idiot son.

Rajaram Namo is giving Badmash the opportunity to act against terrorists. I see that as the meaning of his statement.

[Satya_anveshi]

^^a lot of people are on hair trigger alert to take a dump on Modi....we all know their reasons.

Contrast between Raja Ram ji's legit anguish vs other's dump on Modi ji couldn't be starker.

Forget that Indian agencies might still be ascertaining more specific facts around the real perpetrators and hence generic statement which is also saying something (if one has clue on reading).

[ramana]

SA. Battle is on SM. Here its controlled environment.

[ldev]

Ramana,

A leader has to be bold and innovative e.g. IG saw the US-China nexus and opportunistically pushed India into the Soviet orbit, but that gave India it's opportunity to permanently get rid of a 3 front war threat and the achilles heel of the Chicken Neck and the north east being permanently cut off.

The first nuclear explosion in 1974 which ultimately gave India it's deterrent.

These were game changing moves worthy of a great PM. I don't see any succeeding PM having the innovation or audacity that she had in reshaping India's neighborhood to India's advantage.

After that it's been a lot of talk, not much action. I am not saying that this attack has to have an immediate response. But the decision to keep on talking with Pakistan and Modi's refusal to even state the obvious are disappointing. The inference is that GOI is exonerating all Pakistani official machinery including the Pakistan Army, the ISI and the civilian Government of any responsibility in this attack. And implying that it was organized by independent elements. Hard to swallow.

[member_29247]

Saar ji I will do but it is out sheer audacity of TSP that goes unchecked we are I this state.thats My Humble opinion.

Is there a plan if an attack happens?

Or do we plan after an attack

What is the redline if there is one

Does the nation deserve to keep taking punches, we advertised much about Chase in Burma...

What purpose has Modi Ji visiting TSP has served?

What purpose will the talks serve at foreign secretary level

What is it that has not been discussed in the last 40 years after 1971 war... We even let go 99,000 POWs

We lamblast JLN for taking J&k issue after 66 years , then what is wrong in discussing this sudden peace overtures?

Some gut wrenching questions....

Finally is this crisis the nation is just going about its business except that we at BRF are getting worked up ( at least me )

That's all folks
Thanks for tolerating and no more from me, because nothing has changed and will not

My apologies

[Raja Ram]

MOD statement says that a major calamity was avoided as the bases were prepared based on Intel reports on the possibility of an attack. So far there has been no major official source or indication of an intel failure. Statements from the PM, HM and RM have all stated that a major attack has been foiled. There is nothing to contradict the position that is credible and available as of now.

Consider the following facts:

1. The terror team had crossed in the night of 31 December.
2. They had hijacked an official vehicle of the Gurdaspur SP but did not who he was. Police knew of the missing vehicle and the fact that it was close to the border should have instigated an alert and search
3. The terror group had used a phone recovered from the site to be in touch with a control centre in Pakistan
4. The reports indicate maximum casualty was in the initial moments of the attack and the perimeter force reacted fast and took the terrorists head on
5. The terrorists were isolated very quickly in an area away from technical area where priced air assets were present.
6. Base Commander and WAC Commander were on the ground
7. The whole area was secured and operations commenced thereafter and as per reports all terrorists were neutralised with no casualty on our side
8. Air assets were used for recce and spotting mission as per MOD and not on an attack mode.
9. One photograph of terrorist released that shows a lot of ammo was carried and they were well stocked.

Based on the above there are a few things that can be inferred

1. The installations were informed and were in a state of alert. That is why the response was well coordinated once the initial contact was made.

2. The initial losses are very high, especially when you take into account that this was a pattern starting from attack on parliament to attackss on Army Camps in J&K, Kabul Embassy Attack, Gurdaspur attack etc. The initial contact claimed maximum casualty on perimeter guard duty. Given the alert, and the report of missing car of the police SP near the border in a case of carjacking; the perimeter guards should have been adequately protected with full body armour; reinforcing of approach defences must have been in place way ahead of entry and a clear vantage view and surveillance should have been in place in all approaches. Indications are that these were not there or it was not adequate enough

3. I have always wondered why QR teams or Special Ops teams reacting to such attacks are not accompanied by a mobile Medvac team that is stocked to prevent blood loss or do field level emergency surgery. Should it not become SOP by now? Maybe it is there and these fatalities are despite that (due to head shots or grenade attacks)

4. I have also wondered why cant there be stand off defence systems that can neutralize approaching terrorists at a field level. Like maybe Drones or small intensity guided munitions that can be launched on a isolated area where the terrorists who infiltrate can be boxed in. In this case, the terrorists were boxed into the administrative area and by all accounts there were no hostages or friendlies inside that area. The operation took 15 + hours and after 4 of the 5 were killed it took a long time to neutralise the last one.

5. There seems to have been casualties in the mopping up phase when a grenade or some explosive has gone off during disarming. Again could this loss not been avoided due to use of technology such as robots or explosive sensors during combing?

These are some questions that come up. Maybe someone can contact an expert like Lt Gen Hasnain to get some answers.

[ramana]

Please xpost in Pathankot attack thread in mil forum also.

[shiv]

I am simply astounded by the response of our PM and his choice of words.

Taking a kindly view of his choice of words, one could rationalize that he has exonerated (for whatever reason) the civilian establishment of Pakistan with Nawaz Sharif as its head and is blaming someone else. He is not specifically blaming the Pakistan army, though.

Again, taking a very liberal view I can only assume that Modi and his advisers believe that there is a constituency inside Pakistan that does not include the Sharif led government that is sponsoring terrorist attacks such as this one. But since he has not blamed the army directly I can only surmise one of two things

1. Modi blaming the Paki army directly puts Nawaz Sharif at risk - which is counter to what Modi is trying to say/do
or
2. Modi (and GoI) believe that there is a subsection of the army that is doing this

In answer to the question "Why don't all these groups (Nawaz and anti-terror faction of Paki army) simply say out loud that there are others who support terror?" - the fact is that they do. Many in Pakistan - including some whose faces I would like to smash in like Satraj Aziz have been saying that they don't support terror but someone else (people against humanity) support terror.

I have never believed them though.

Why don't these Pakis name those who feel they are against peace and pro terror? Here I have to cling on to hope that these people have been named in private to Modi (and to MMS before Modi). And I have to build a conspiracy theory in my mind in which I tell myself that naming the pro-terror factions in Pakistan will make the lives of anti-terror people in Pakistan very difficult.

All in all I have to build an elaborate story in my own mind to believe that Pakistan really has people who oppose terror but they cannot be named and shamed because they are powerful and dangerous and they need to be opposed only by handling them with velvet gloves.

Not easy given the open hostility that Pakistanis show in the media and in public discourse on the internet

[Raja Ram]

From a strategic response perspective, besides the obviously wrong choice of words by the PM, I think he has been careful in not jumping the gun and blaming Pakistan nor has he exonerated them as some think. As PM it is prudent to get things properly ascertained, analysed and then make a statement apportioning blame based on facts. He cannot do it any other way.

Further more, much as we are tired about this "befitting reply" type of reactions, what is to be noted that none of them, PM or HM or RM have made any reference to the talks. It is only Prakash Javdekar that has said talks will not stop. I don't think a decision has been reached on this point. It is futile to assume this will have no affect relations if the post incident investigations nail Pakistani establishment complicity as preliminary reports suggest.

From the Pakistani perspective, the initial reaction seem to spin in Paki media this as a homegrown incident in Punjab given the initial spins by those connected to the ISI. However, there is also a sense of suspense and fear given that so far whenever transgressions have happened, there has been a disproportionate response and it has caused pain.

Just a ramble as usual. Take it for what it is worth.

[Satya_anveshi]

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office renewed on Saturday its offer to India to cooperate against terrorism.

“Pakistan remains committed to partner with India as well as other countries in the region to completely eradicate the menace of terrorism afflicting our region,” said an FO statement condemning the terrorist attack on an airbase in the Indian town of Pathankot.

Perhaps the above is taken at face value and hope they really cooperate.

Gurdaspur attack happened on July 27th. I am not linking anything but just observing:

Malik Ishaq and his entire top coterie was eliminated (July 29th). It is a different matter that after that incident, LeJ took out Pakjab's home minister Shuja Khanzada (on Aug 16th) so a price was paid by the civvies. Shuja Khanzada himself an ex-serviceman so may have been hand-in-glove with some of these elements as well.

Interestingly just a day before Shuja Khanzada died, Hamid Gul, the grand old man of Paki jihadis died (on Aug 15th) silently when some nerves in his brain wore soosai belts and exploded causing great mayhem within.

Hope to see Masood Azhar, Hafeez Sayeed etc meet the same fate even if actual response for Pathankot incident is due somewhere else.

[Gus]

at this moment, i wish there is something, whatever that something is, more than the usual platitudes in MMS era attacks. if platitudes is 0 and outright war is 100, let us at least go to 1.

[arun]

‘Kissing’ Pakistani soil ‘soaked’ in Indian blood will prove ‘costly’: Shiv Sena to PM Modi

It is One Week since Modi held Nawaz Sharifs hand

Two sons/husbands/fathers lost

It is One Week since Modi held Nawaz Sharifs hand,

Seven Sons/Husbands/Fathers lost.

Pathankot Attack: 7 Soldiers Martyred, Another Injured In Fresh Blast

[Karan M]

Also Spinsterji getting emails asking you to tone it down. Folks remember your decade old stance of running down Indians during crisis.

Exactly. Akhand steel knees Vajpayee. White Paper LK Advani... all sorts of rants and complaints against national leaders during each crisis. Reduced forum morale and also did severe propaganda against NDA Govt, and what came thereafter was 100x worse.

One thing to be upset, we all are, but the constant semi-mocking doggerels are just too much.

[Karan M]

I am simply astounded by the response of our PM and his choice of words.

Taking a kindly view of his choice of words, one could rationalize that he has exonerated (for whatever reason) the civilian establishment of Pakistan with Nawaz Sharif as its head and is blaming someone else. He is not specifically blaming the Pakistan army, though.

Again, taking a very liberal view I can only assume that Modi and his advisers believe that there is a constituency inside Pakistan that does not include the Sharif led government that is sponsoring terrorist attacks such as this one. But since he has not blamed the army directly I can only surmise one of two things

1. Modi blaming the Paki army directly puts Nawaz Sharif at risk - which is counter to what Modi is trying to say/do
or
2. Modi (and GoI) believe that there is a subsection of the army that is doing this

In answer to the question "Why don't all these groups (Nawaz and anti-terror faction of Paki army) simply say out loud that there are others who support terror?" - the fact is that they do. Many in Pakistan - including some whose faces I would like to smash in like Satraj Aziz have been saying that they don't support terror but someone else (people against humanity) support terror.

I have never believed them though.

Why don't these Pakis name those who feel they are against peace and pro terror? Here I have to cling on to hope that these people have been named in private to Modi (and to MMS before Modi). And I have to build a conspiracy theory in my mind in which I tell myself that naming the pro-terror factions in Pakistan will make the lives of anti-terror people in Pakistan very difficult.

All in all I have to build an elaborate story in my own mind to believe that Pakistan really has people who oppose terror but they cannot be named and shamed because they are powerful and dangerous and they need to be opposed only by handling them with velvet gloves.

Not easy given the open hostility that Pakistanis show in the media and in public discourse on the internet

Or he is doubling down on failure. That he too is human and needs to go through the entire deal with TSP charade to realize that peace talks with Nawaz are of no practical use to an Indian state which anyway has to deal with the consequences of TSP being TSP irrespective of "good Nawaz, bad Army".

However if your theory is correct, then Modi and co have been backstabbed by the deep state despite assurances to the contrary (his visit to Pakistan could not have been possible without official Pak mil support).

[Karan M]

From a strategic response perspective, besides the obviously wrong choice of words by the PM, I think he has been careful in not jumping the gun and blaming Pakistan nor has he exonerated them as some think. As PM it is prudent to get things properly ascertained, analysed and then make a statement apportioning blame based on facts. He cannot do it any other way.

Further more, much as we are tired about this "befitting reply" type of reactions, what is to be noted that none of them, PM or HM or RM have made any reference to the talks. It is only Prakash Javdekar that has said talks will not stop. I don't think a decision has been reached on this point. It is futile to assume this will have no affect relations if the post incident investigations nail Pakistani establishment complicity as preliminary reports suggest.

From the Pakistani perspective, the initial reaction seem to spin in Paki media this as a homegrown incident in Punjab given the initial spins by those connected to the ISI. However, there is also a sense of suspense and fear given that so far whenever transgressions have happened, there has been a disproportionate response and it has caused pain.

Just a ramble as usual. Take it for what it is worth.

Also, was it not a given that once Modi and Nawaz talked, the deep state aka ISI would hit back?

If our folks did not take that into account, we have to really step back and reevaluate what capability we have built up to understand and deal with TSP.

[SSridhar]

It is only Prakash Javdekar that has said talks will not stop.

Prakash Javdekar is a senior minister, Raja Ram, and his words would be taken as coming from the government. He is in no way connected with the on-going situation, being a Cabinet Minister for Environment & Forests. May be he thought since the terrorists came through the forests, he has a right to talk. The. BJP ministers must know when to talk, who should talk etc., unless & until this was a decision of the GoI to convey 'some' information of which we do not know. However, Prakash Javdekar's statement seems completely unwarranted and unconvincing.

That being said, I am sure that the current government would not let this go without punishment. I continue to believe that the PA is testing the resolve. Nawaz Sharif is either a witting or an unwitting accomplice. He cannot act against terrorists. He has conceded that policy of the state to the Army too when the COAS signs the death warrants. Even in normal times, no Pakistani terrorist acting against India could be prosecuted by the civilian government of Pakistan.

JeM *IS* an army outfit to boot.

[Karan M]

SSridhar this is just a Kargil (in a manner of speaking) all over again. This time, its JeM, then it was "fidayeen"..who turned out to be NLI..how long before we get intel ISI planned this and trained the Pathankot attackers in some SSG facility.

[SSridhar]

Shiv, there has been a talk for a long time now of a vague 'peace constituency' within Pakistan and off and on it has included BB and NS too though both of them are known hawks too. We have no way of knowing the truth now about NS's real intentions but looking at the Pakistani population as a whole, one cannot be convinced at all of there being a 'peace constituency' there.

Our support to NS, assuming he is a genuine peace dove (a wrong assumption to make IMHO), is not going to bring us any dividends at all. The Army and the Islamist/Jihadi Terrorist combination is far, far powerful for NS to take on. In fact, he has been steadily conceding space to the Army in every sphere and today he is lame duck.

The Army can remove him at any time and the so-called 'world community' would once again stand behind the PA at this time of critical developments in Afghanistan, West Asia etc.

[shiv]

Shiv, there has been a talk for a long time now of a vague 'peace constituency' within Pakistan and off and on it has included BB and NS too though both of them are known hawks too. We have no way of knowing the truth now about NS's real intentions but looking at the Pakistani population as a whole, one cannot be convinced at all of there being a 'peace constituency' there.

Our support to NS, assuming he is a genuine peace dove (a wrong assumption to make IMHO), is not going to bring us any dividends at all. The Army and the Islamist/Jihadi Terrorist combination is far, far powerful for NS to take on. In fact, he has been steadily conceding space to the Army in every sphere and today he is lame duck.

The Army can remove him at any time and the so-called 'world community' would once again stand behind the PA at this time of critical developments in Afghanistan, West Asia etc.

Sridhar there can be few people in India with a deeper understanding of Pakistan than you. I can't understand what is going on

[SSridhar]

X-post from Internal Security Threat

Jaish-e-Mohammed militants suspected to be planning attacks in Delhi: Police -PTI, Economic Times

Two Jaish-e-Mohammed militants were suspected to have sneaked into the national capital and were planning high profile attacks, including taking hostages, following which security was today stepped up in the city, a day after the Pathankot air base strike by the same Pakistan- based outfit.

Delhi Police received specific intelligence input about the presence of militants. Police Commissioner BS Bassi today held a meeting with its top brass and the department sought help of central paramilitary forces in providing security, especially around vital installations in the city, said a senior police official.

"We have inputs regarding two Jaish-e-Mohammed key members who have sneaked into Delhi and are suspected to be planning high profile attacks or hostage crisis.

"We have also got a few additional companies of paramilitary forces to increase security following the alert," said the official.
The national capital was already put on high alert yesterday in the wake of the Pathankot attack.

Security was significantly heightened at the airport, railway stations, bus stands and other vital installations in the city.

Vigil was also heightened in several areas, including popular market places, in South Delhi, Central Delhi and the VIP movement zone in Lutyens' Delhi, a senior police official said.

Sleuths of Crime Branch and special cell of Delhi Police were also roped in and the security unit has been asked to form a strategy in connection with potential threats to VIPs in the national capital, the official said.

Earlier in the day, the Delhi-Lucknow Shatabdi was halted for searches at Ghaziabad and movement of several other trains disrupted after Northern Railways was alerted about a possible bomb threat to trains plying between Delhi and Kanpur.

"We received a call from the railway control room in the morning in which they said that they had received information about a potential bomb threat on a train plying between Delhi and Kanpur," a senior police official said.

A search operation was launched across all railway stations in the city covering all trains on the said route, the official added.

[Raja Ram]

SSridhar ji, I think Prakash talking is because he is some sort of spokesperson for BJP. But completely agree that ministers across the board should know when to keep their mouth shut. Ideally only three should talk HM, NSA and RM. Others should just shut up.

Apparently HM's Presser and a briefing by Air Commodore Khosla clearly state that the Intel was not the issue. No Air Assets lost, they have determined that the main objective has been thwarted. Not confirming the exact casualties nor the number of terrorists. AC Khosla says operation never stopped and is near completion.

Looks like it was a major attack and is not likely that will not have an impact on bilateral relations. Apparently the media is not being told anything. Most of them are just rumour mongering or indulging in deliberate disinformation.

[Peregrine]

X-post from Internal Security Threat
Jaish-e-Mohammed militants suspected to be planning attacks in Delhi: Police -PTI, Economic Times

SSridhar Ji:

Cwapistan's Terrorist Arm and ISI has now made it patent that they are totally against Peace and Amity between India and Pakistan.

As such India should put itself on a War Footing against Cwapistani Terrorism and immediately seal the Border with Cwapistan, withdraw from the TAPI project, stop all trade and send all Cwapistanis on an India Visit for all purposes -except Religious Visits - back to Cwapistan thereby obviating any further Cwapistani Terrorists entering into India.

Cheers

[BRao]

Gentlemen on this forum go to great lengths to deflect any criticism of Modi. You cut too much slack to him. 'Enemies of humanity'? If MMS had said something like this, he would have been abused in great lengths on SM and on BR but since it happens to Mr.56" chest, all his utterances are chankian. I'm sure folks will find a chankian reason to justify his falling on Nawaz Sharif's mother's feet.

Question is why show so much love to the leader of an enemy nation? Even after knowing everything that has gone down between India & Pakistan and no doubt as PM he is privy to all the threats to the nation, he chooses to become a peacenik? Is that what the PM's gaddi does to you?

Even today BJP leaders say 'one small attack' should not derail piss process. How are they different from Congress?

They do nothing for Hindus, now they do nothing for national security too. Modi is coming across as a major major disappointment despite having a FANTASTIC cabinet. Economic development alone will not win them 2019, he should walk the bloody talk.

[A_Gupta]

Question is why show so much love to the leader of an enemy nation? Even after knowing everything that has gone down between India & Pakistan and no doubt as PM he is privy to all the threats to the nation, he chooses to become a peacenik? Is that what the PM's gaddi does to you?

It suggests that the magnitude of the threat to the nation is such, and the inadequacy of the apparatus to deal with it is such, that Prime Ministers are compelled to become peaceniks. "aur koi raastaa nahin hai". I am at a loss to draw any other conclusion.

[SSridhar]

Cwapistan's Terrorist Arm and ISI has now made it patent that they are totally against Peace and Amity between India and Pakistan.

As such India should put itself on a War Footing against Cwapistani Terrorism and immediately seal the Border with Cwapistan, withdraw from the TAPI project, stop all trade and send all Cwapistanis on an India Visit for all purposes -except Religious Visits - back to Cwapistan thereby obviating any further Cwapistani Terrorists entering into India.

Peregrine ji, we have seen this scenario repeat so many times in the last three decades that this cannot come as a surprise to us.

The talks cannot be made 'uninterrupted and uninterruptible' without India being internally prepared for a swift, powerful and disproportionate retaliatory action. Otherwise, Pakistan will only be increasing the frequency and intensity of the terror strikes on us under the safe assumption that talks would not end. Already, they are under the impression that India is effectively constrained from retaliating for terror strikes under the nuclear overhang. We have never disabused Pakistan of that notion too. We cannot allow Pakistan to add one more notion of 'uninterrupted talks' to that.

All the steps that you are listing are eminently to be followed. I will slightly modify what you stated. We must 'threaten' to withdraw from TAPI (since there is a seller-buyer relationship with Turkmenistan that does not involve Pakistan and Turkmenistan is a friendly country) and we must send every Pakistani back, even those on religious visits, except religious minorities from Pakistan who are here on a religious or social visit. Medical visas must be stopped until further orders and those patients in India who are not on a critical list should be asked to return. Pain *MUST* be inflicted on Pakistan and ordinary Pakistanis must feel it.

Essentially, we must walk the talk that we will be tough on Pakistan for every misdemeanour or misbehaviour. Diplomacy cannot be conducted in vacuum.

[sum]

Gentlemen on this forum go to great lengths to deflect any criticism of Modi. You cut too much slack to him. 'Enemies of humanity'? If MMS had said something like this, he would have been abused in great lengths on SM and on BR but since it happens to Mr.56" chest, all his utterances are chankian. I'm sure folks will find a chankian reason to justify his falling on Nawaz Sharif's mother's feet.

I generally would have fallen into the category of believing the NaMo-Doval combination but honestly, am still bamboozeled at NaMos ënemies of humanity"utterances and finding it tough to justify to anyone.

If MMS had said it, maybe entire BRF would have popped a vein.

[abhijitm]

When your defense is porous, your offense is your best defense.

Geography, lack of technology, dense population etc will always be the factors contributing soft defense. Also no country in the world, however advance it may be, who share such a long border with a hostile neighbor can have a foolproof defense system. Our only defense would be the disproportionate cost of such attacks inflicted upon the hostile neighbor.

This is a never ending game. But by having offensive defense we can ensure relatively low number of such attacks and casualties.

[deejay]

Shiv, there has been a talk for a long time now of a vague 'peace constituency' within Pakistan and off and on it has included BB and NS too though both of them are known hawks too. We have no way of knowing the truth now about NS's real intentions but looking at the Pakistani population as a whole, one cannot be convinced at all of there being a 'peace constituency' there.

Our support to NS, assuming he is a genuine peace dove (a wrong assumption to make IMHO), is not going to bring us any dividends at all. The Army and the Islamist/Jihadi Terrorist combination is far, far powerful for NS to take on. In fact, he has been steadily conceding space to the Army in every sphere and today he is lame duck.

The Army can remove him at any time and the so-called 'world community' would once again stand behind the PA at this time of critical developments in Afghanistan, West Asia etc.

Sridhar there can be few people in India with a deeper understanding of Pakistan than you. I can't understand what is going on

We put ourselves in this binding spot. If the Lahore visit would not have happened reacting to this attack would have been easier for the GOI.

On the other hand there may not have been any attack if the visit had not happened.

Peace overtures from our side with our leadership making the moves which commit India to the process is a flawed approach. There have to be redlines and graded escalation approach to friendship with Pakistan which Pakistan as a state must cross for every move of ours before engagement at next higher levels of GOI. Trusting in an individual in Pakistan and putting India's security at risk based on such individual's promises is a mistake that has been made too many times.

Lessons need to be learnt. For once and forever. Since, the GOI is not ready to punitively strike back what authority does it have of encouraging strikes on Homeland by undertaking these pseudo summit meets. Was such a strike as that on Pathankot not anticipated when the meeting at Lahore happened?

[Avinash R]

In Pathankot, India has lost another opportunity to win the perception war

The lack of official communication during the attack in Punjab did little to bolster India’s case that it is a serious victim of terror.
Akash Banerjee · Today · 10:30 am

In the early hours of Saturday, at least five men launched a daring attack on an air force base in Punjab’s Pathankot district. They are believed to be members of the Jaish-e-Mohammad terror group, who slipped over the border from Pakistan. In the 15-hour battle that followed, five attackers and three Indian Air Force personnel were killed.

Given the strategic value of the target and the audacity of the plan, the attack seemed to recall the 26/11 attacks on Mumbai. However, unlike the 2008 attacks on the commercial capital, the intelligence inputs on this occasion were specific and the attack was thwarted to a large extent.

Another notable difference between Pathankot and Mumbai was the way in which the media reported the attacks. No crucial footage was aired that could have given anything away to handlers in another location, there was a delayed broadcast of combing operations and an attempt was made to stick to the facts. The media clearly seemed to have learned from its Mumbai misadventure.

However, while the media curbed its enthusiasm, the army and the security apparatus seem to have performed a vanishing act altogether.

Busy with combat operations through the day, they failed to brief the media on non-vital specifics of the operations – what had been done, who the perpetrators were and what was left to be achieved.

It is an army practice not to officially comment on an ongoing operation – but therein lies the problem.

Hunt for information

Reporting on the 26/11 attacks was distorted by a fog of rumours. This was because of the absence of official communication from the government and the security forces. In the postmortems that followed, media self-regulation and official briefings were suggested as standard protocol in such cases. While the media seemingly held up its end of the bargain during the Pathankot attack, the same cannot be said for the army.

While there was no information blackout, there was no official briefing during the encounter. Selective leaks to the media continued through the day, fuelling source-based journalism. News trickled through about the number of attackers, their path of entry, and details of their call logs linking them to them to Jaish-e-Mohammed.

While the army officially maintained a stoic silence on television and on Twitter, there was plenty of unconfirmed information coming out.

Unfortunately, such information has as much value as gossip picked up at a party and does little to bolster India’s case as a serious victim of Pakistani terror. Staying mum certainly isn’t going to win India the war of perception.

Communication during a terror attack is imperative to control the narrative that is going out to the world – certainly more so when BBC labels the Pakistani terrorists as “gunmen” and Pakistan issues innocent statements saying it will “eliminate terror” (but bypasses questions about the origin of the terror).

In such a situation, it would have been befitting for the army’s public relations officer to brief the world media regularly about the source of the infiltrators, their calls to the handlers in Pakistan and their nationality. Surely the army has the experience to decide just what information flows out, even as the operation to flush out the terrorists is live. India can follow protocol and hand over dossiers to Pakistan a few months down the line when the dust has settled – but hasn't proven to be very effective in the past. Once again, New Delhi has failed to capitalise on the moment.

Lack of clarity

Instead, India seemed content being self-congratulatory through the day. Union Home Minister Rajnath Singh tried to maintain a balance, saying that while India “wanted friendship with Pakistan, terrorism will be given a befitting reply”. The minister didn’t quite elaborate about how a 15-hour gunbattle with terrorists was a befitting reply. The prime minister and the defence minister remained silent, even on Twitter.

Less than six hours into the gunbattle, with no information forthcoming from the government, so-called experts of all hues took centrestage on television, sharing their own versions of what could have happened and what should be done.

“Let us sort these terror groups, if Pakistan can’t” said one belligerent retired general, while some Pakistani experts claimed that there was no Jaish in Pakistan to begin with. While Indian soldiers were being killed in Pathankot, a political battle had broken out between the Bharatiya Janata Party and Congress over the futility of Narendra Modi’s impromptu visit to Pakistan last week.

The army (and the political class) are doing the men in uniform a grave disservice by failing to fight the information battle.

[Avinash R]

^Meanwhile the ISI controlled Bakistani media was quick to spin a conspiracy theory of Indian army removing the barricades around the base to allow the terrorists to attack the Air Force controlled station.

Trying to pit one service against the other and deflect attention from the bakistan based terrorists aka non-state actors.

[Avinash R]

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/683621329619161088

TIMES NOW ‏@TimesNow 2h2 hours ago
JS Dhamoon, AOC Pathankot Air Force Station briefs the media on #PathankotTerrorAttack

Operation is on and will continue till airbase is cleared of any intruders, terrorists: JS Dhamoon, AOC #PathankotTerrorAttack

[Peregrine]

Peregrine ji, we have seen this scenario repeat so many times in the last three decades that this cannot come as a surprise to us.

The talks cannot be made 'uninterrupted and uninterruptible' without India being internally prepared for a swift, powerful and disproportionate retaliatory action. Otherwise, Pakistan will only be increasing the frequency and intensity of the terror strikes on us under the safe assumption that talks would not end. Already, they are under the impression that India is effectively constrained from retaliating for terror strikes under the nuclear overhang. We have never disabused Pakistan of that notion too. We cannot allow Pakistan to add one more notion of 'uninterrupted talks' to that.

All the steps that you are listing are eminently to be followed. I will slightly modify what you stated. We must 'threaten' to withdraw from TAPI (since there is a seller-buyer relationship with Turkmenistan that does not involve Pakistan and Turkmenistan is a friendly country) and we must send every Pakistani back, even those on religious visits, except religious minorities from Pakistan who are here on a religious or social visit. Medical visas must be stopped until further orders and those patients in India who are not on a critical list should be asked to return. Pain *MUST* be inflicted on Pakistan and ordinary Pakistanis must feel it.

Essentially, we must walk the talk that we will be tough on Pakistan for every misdemeanour or misbehaviour. Diplomacy cannot be conducted in vacuum.

SSridhar Ji :

I agree with you totally but would request you to re-consider you stance on "Religious Terrorism".

Such a stance by India will alienate our Sikh brethren as the Colonising Power gave away Lahore - Hindu & Sikh Majority with, I believe, 80% of the Commerce, Industry and Property owned by Sikhs and Hindus - along with the Holiest of the Holy Places to Pakistan so that whenever Pakistan stood at a disadvantage vis-à-vis its disputes with India it could always resort to barring Sikhs from visiting their Holy Places in Nankana Saheb.

Cheers

[Paul]

There will be retaliation from Indian side for Pathankot attack.

It will come.....

[Peregrine]

Attack on Pathankot air base a 'heinous terrorist act': US

WASHINGTON: The deadly assault on an Indian air base near the Pakistan border Saturday was "a heinous" terrorist attack, the United States said, urging the two countries to work together to hunt down those responsible.

Three security officers were killed in the attack by suspected Islamist militants on Pathankot base in northern Punjab state earlier Saturday. At least four attackers also died in shootouts with security forces.

The possible involvement of Pakistan-based militants threatens to derail talks between nuclear-armed rivals India and Pakistan, who have fought three wars since independence in 1947.

"The United States is committed to our strong partnership with the Indian government to combat terrorism," State Department spokesman John Kirby said in a statement, condemning the assault.

"We urge all countries in the region to work together to disrupt and dismantle terrorist networks and to bring to justice the perpetrators of this heinous act."

Cheers

[Tamang]

AOC Pathankot said that first engagement with the terrorists happened in a building.