Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

svinayak
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby svinayak » 21 Jan 2004 02:15

Originally posted by sunil s:
>

iirc Beg's brother was killed in a helo crash at MeS in Afghanistan. He was with a bunch of ISI guys directing the battle at MeS in 1997.

My records don't show MAB as having been DG ISI.
On August 17, 1988, President Zia, ten Pakistani generals, and Arnold L. Raphel, the United States Ambassador to Pakistan, were killed in the crash of Zia’s Air Force C-130 a few miles north of the garrison town of Bahawalpur.

Gen Aslam Beg declined Zia request to board the same plane. He was in another plane and circled the downed plane which killed Zia.

Gen ASLAM Beg becomes the new COAS in 1988.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 21 Jan 2004 02:17

there is hidden nugget in this message.

'They also serve those who Lie-down for the nations cause.' Spinster ;)
****
From: "Shawn Mahmood" <mrm15@h...>
Date: Thu Feb 11, 1999 6:07 am
Subject: [PAKISTAN-JOURNAL] Re: Global Economic Order and The Muslim Ummah - By Gen. Mirza Aslam Beg



I only have a couple of questions for you Mr. Aslam Beg.

How much money are you taking from CIA/America as your pension. Gen. Ayub got $70K/year for life for allowing America the U2 flights. That
was pretty good for the 60s.

Have you arranged for enough or did you sell out too cheap and "qaum ki
naak tou neheen kata dee"?

As for as your articles/speeches are concerned, talking about the Global Ummah does not suite you well, you filthy, useless rangroot of a make
belief/urbanized army. The army that can only conquer its unarmed civilians, like it is conquering Karachi for the last seven years.

I talked about Pakistani and Indian Armymen having border campfires. Now my suspicions are coming true. Nawaz Sharif is being awarded "Punjabi Ratan Award" by the World Punjabi Organization (WPO). The Cheif
Organizer of the WPO is no other than the ex-Prime Minister of India, Ander Gajral. (sic) The memnbers include Muslim Punjabis, Hindu Punjabis and Sikhs.

And Punjabis call us Ghaddar!

<u>By the way, did you have Indian lady friends like Gen. Niazi did?</u>

Mujhay Hay Hukm-e-Azan, La Ilaha Illallah
Shawn Mahmood

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby jarugn » 21 Jan 2004 09:16

TSP prohibits nuke scientists from leaving town!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/21/international/asia/21STAN.html

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby ramana » 21 Jan 2004 10:17

Very fascinating story is unfolding. So TSP offered to Iraq designs obtained in 1980s from CERN. It then under Gen. Beg transferred centrifuge designs etc from 1988 onwards to Iran. Mind you this was right after the gruesome Iran-Iraq war ended. So where was the Sunni-Shia divide supposed to be guiding the TSP? What did KSA think about all this - especially with Iran under the Ayatollahs!
And while this was going on Libya enters the picture. Again a radical regime at odds with KSA. Looks like TSP was destabilizing the Arab world above all.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby member_6035 » 21 Jan 2004 10:24

Ramana Iran,Pakistan,Iraq,KSA etc- are all an axis of Rogue states. They are all self serving crapocracies. I bet even while India and Iran are mulling friendship, the Pakis are cookin somethin with their disliked Shiite brethren. None of those states are to be trusted with anything.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Vivek_A » 21 Jan 2004 19:11


Editor
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Editor » 21 Jan 2004 19:15

Can someone please write a summary of the developments in Pakistan, specifically analyse the pattern of arrests relating to proliferation?

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rangudu » 21 Jan 2004 19:23

Originally posted by Editor:
Can someone please write a summary of the developments in Pakistan, specifically analyse the pattern of arrests relating to proliferation?
I can try. When do you want it by?

BTW Calvin, what happened to my paper on TSP Nuke proliferation and its ties to terrorism? It needs updates from the last 3 weeks, but I need feedback please.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Div » 21 Jan 2004 19:28


Rangudu
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rangudu » 21 Jan 2004 19:40

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36%257E53%257E1904174,00.html#

Feds fight bail for nuke-sale suspect
U.S.: Israeli's deal violates export laws


By Jim Hughes
Denver Post Staff Writer

Wednesday, January 21, 2004 -

The shadow of international terrorism fell Tuesday on the case of an Israeli man arrested at the start of his Colorado ski vacation and charged with selling nuclear bomb components.

Asher Karni, 50, who was arrested at Denver International Airport on Jan. 2 on his way to Summit County, sold nuclear parts he bought from a U.S. company to a Pakistani businessman with ties to terrorists, federal prosecutors charged Tuesday.

A resident of Cape Town, South Africa, Karni is accused of buying devices that can be used as triggers for nuclear bombs and reselling them to Pakistan, a violation of U.S. export laws.

The Pakistani man accused of buying the devices, Humayun Khan, is connected to a terrorist group in the disputed Kashmir region separating Pakistan and India, federal prosecutor Jay Bratt said Tuesday in a hearing in federal court in Washington, D.C.

"It is an organization that has ties to militant Islamic groups," and the alleged sale represents "a serious breach of national security policy," Bratt said.


Tuesday's hearing was for the government's appeal of Karni's potential release from custody pending his trial in federal court in Washington. It was conducted by video conference, with Karni and his lawyers in Denver, and the prosecutors who charged him in Washington, appearing before a judge there.

On Jan. 12, Magistrate Judge Michael Watanabe ruled in Denver that Karni could go free on $75,000 cash bond if he wore an electronic ankle bracelet and lived with a rabbi who volunteered to put him up in Potomac, Md.

The government appealed Watanabe's ruling and argued its case Tuesday before a federal judge in Washington, where the case originated.

Karni's lawyer, Harvey Steinberg, argued that Karni should be released. He is accused of "nothing more than a licensing violation," Steinberg said.

And even if Khan diverted the devices to terrorist groups, Karni had no knowledge of that, Steinberg said. :roll:

Karni has not been indicted but could be within a month, Bratt said.

He also could face more charges, Bratt said.

So far, prosecutors have accused Karni of buying 200 high-speed electronic switches from a Massachusetts company and sending them to Pakistan, despite knowing that doing so was illegal.

"What we have here is a known component of a nuclear weapon, and we have it being sent to someone (Karni) knows is an arms dealer," Bratt said.

Judge Thomas Hogan of the U.S. District Court in Washington will rule Tuesday on Karni's detention.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby JE Menon » 21 Jan 2004 19:43

The nuclear proliferation hunt that has gained urgency in recent weeks may not be related solely to the issue. Getting guys like Beg, Qadeer, etc. in the net for questioning may also give them space to bring in questions about 9/11. Gullible Hameed, Javed Nasir et al are still out in the open. It is only a matter of time, IMHO, before these guys are netted on the proliferation question as well - once they are in, you can be sure that the queries will not relate solely to proliferation.

The US believes it is under threat from WMD, whether nuke or dirty nuke is almost irrelevant in terms of the impact such an event will have. It is pretty clear that Pakistan has proliferated nuclear expertise to a wide variety of customers prepared to spend money, share ideology, etc. What would have prevented them from sharing this expertise with Al Qaida? There were also reports IIRC about Pakistan having stored some of its nukes in Afghanistan. What are the circumstances of such storage? Are they stored under Al Qaida "safeguard"?

If I were anybody in the US security establishment, I sure as hell would want to question these guys about what exactly made Al Qaida so confident that they could hit America in America and live to tell the tale, and not just that, to threaten of even worse to come...

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Div » 21 Jan 2004 19:46

Pakistan Sent Nuke Investigators to Iran
``Yes, we sent our own teams to Iran and Libya and the debriefings began after that,'' said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. He said the interrogations sprung from information learned on the trips, as well as evidence handed to Pakistan by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 21 Jan 2004 20:15

Pakistan to sell nuclear material

Special report: India and Pakistan

Rory McCarthy in Islamabad and Julian Borger in Philadelphia
Thursday August 3, 2000
The Guardian

The military regime in Pakistan is to allow the export of radioactive material and equipment for nuclear reactors, in apparent breach of recently drafted guidelines.
The news surprised and confused US officials, who said it appeared to undermine much of the recent progress made in talks on introducing greater controls on nuclear materials.

In a full-page newspaper advertisement the Pakistani commerce ministry has published an application form for the export of 11 radioactive substances, including depleted uranium, enriched uranium, plutonium and tritium, and 17 types of equipment, including nuclear power reactors, nuclear research reactors and reactor control systems.

It is the first time Pakistan has openly authorised the sale of nuclear materials since it became the world's newest acknowledged nuclear power in May 1998, when it conducted six bomb tests in direct response to tests in India.

Would-be exporters, who have to pay up to £1,400 in application fees, must declare that the sale is for peaceful purposes only and the material will not be re-exported.

They must reveal the source of the material or equipment, supply an end-user certificate, and obtain a "no-objection certificate" from the government. Although almost all nuclear material is held by the government, there are some private contractors.

"This is a fulfilment of our commitment to transparency," Javed Jabbar, the information minister, said yesterday. "There is absolutely no scope left for any kind of misuse or pilferage or illegal export of any substance. We are doing it only in order to be a good nuclear citizen."

He said Pakistan had exported no nuclear material in the past and had no immediate plans for exports now.

Ishfaq Ahmed, the head of the Pakistani atomic energy commission, said the export of fissionable material, including enriched uranium and plu tonium, was banned but other nuclear material exports would be considered. His statement contradicted the advertisment's suggestion that enriched uranium and plutonium could be exported.

"We made a commitment to the international community that we would put in a place a system to exercise controls on nuclear exports and that is what this is," he said.

A US state department official said: "This is not exactly what the US had in mind when we talked to them about nuclear controls."

Another, engaged in monitoring Pakistan's nuclear programme, said export control guidelines had been drawn up by Islamabad only two weeks ago, and the advertisement seemed to contradict them.

"Up to now the Pakistanis have not supported the idea of making money out of selling this stuff," the official said. "We're still trying to figure out what all this new stuff means."

Pakistan's newest nuclear reactor went operational last month. The 300Mw plant at Chasma, in Punjab, was built with Chinese help. Another on the same site should be ready within 10 years.

The country's first plant, a 125Mw reactor in Karachi, began operations in 1971. Pakistan also operates a research reactor at Khushab, near Lahore, also built with Chinese help. It produces enough weapons-grade plutonium for five nuclear warheads every year, according to the Federation of American Scientists.

It has at least two uranium enrichment plants and two plutonium reprocessing plants.

The decision to invite nuclear exports comes as the government struggles to revive the economy. With $38bn (£25.5bn) in foreign debt still to be paid, it must raise revenue quickly.

"The purpose of this is very clear: it is to earn much-needed money," a former army chief, General Mirza Aslam Beg, said. "It shows we have enough material to maintain our low-level nuclear deterrence and so much in surplus that we can sell it in the open market. <u>It is a respectable way of earning money." </u>

*****
Note the dual (purpose)nature of the above statements.

1) Proliferate Nukes to Islamic regimes that are threat to US.

2) Its all for money Honey, just give more money and we will be happy. aka Black Mail.

Jem>> The effort of unkil will be restricted and limited purely to uncover the threat of WMD attack on US but not to find the real culprit in the proliferation.
WHy so?
The answer is child play, PRC The commie buddies of GOTUS under Nixon, then under Carter were encouraging the PRC to proliferate Nukes and Missiles.

Need proof, just google away the role of papa bush as ambassador to china, Brezenski (carter admin)


"CHINA'S NUCLEAR AND MISSILE PROLIFERATION
Since the 1970s, China has been instrumental in Pakistan's nuclear and missile programs. China provided Pakistan with highly enriched uranium, ring magnets necessary for processing the uranium, and education for nuclear engineers. Pakistan's nuclear bomb, in fact, is widely believed to be based on Chinese blueprints. Worse, in 1990 and 1992, China provided Pakistan with nuclear-capable M-11 missiles that have a range of 186 miles. China reportedly has provided the technology for Pakistan to build a missile that could strike targets within a 360-mile range.

Outside the region, and of perhaps greater immediate significance to the United States, China has been assisting Middle Eastern states with missile and nuclear programs. In 1988, China sold Saudi Arabia 50 to 60 1,200-mile-range DF-3 missiles. China has provided ballistic missile technology to Iran as well as other lethal technologies. In 1996, Iran received China's 72-mile-range C-802 antiship missiles, which is a threat to U.S. ships in the Persian Gulf and potential source of know-how for building longer-range cruise missiles. China also is believed to have given Iran technology that could help that country's nuclear weapons program."
and jokers like this advice the GOTUS
Spreading Nuclear Instability to the Middle East
By helping Pakistan's nuclear program, China has spread instability outside of South Asia. <H3>To its credit, Pakistan thus far has expressed no inclination to proliferate nuclear technology further.</H3> :rotfl:
<small> Article written in 1998</small>

But the praise for Pakistan's nuclear achievement by radical Islamic leaders highlights fears of more "Islamic bombs." For example, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, spiritual leader of the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas, hailed Pakistan's nuclear tests as an "asset to the Arab and Muslim nations." Iran's foreign minister, Kamal Kharrazi, praised Pakistan's weapons achievement as a potential deterrent to Israel's presumed nuclear capability, and went on to say, "From all over the world, Muslims are happy that Pakistan has this capability." And Sheik Hayyan Idrisi of Jerusalem's Al-Aqsa Mosque went so far as to proclaim that "The Pakistani nuclear bomb is the beginning of the resurgence of Islamic power."
Now there are too many skeletons that will come tumbling down or shall we say POP up like in the video of Thriller if everything is exposed. :lol:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rudra » 21 Jan 2004 20:28

the frantic moves lately in western media and elsewhere certainly point to a feeling of credible threat from WMD....

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rangudu » 21 Jan 2004 20:34

Jumrao Garu,

Please post links to the above. Thanks

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 21 Jan 2004 20:48

1)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,349793,00.html

2)
http://www.heritage.org/Research/AsiaandthePacific/EM532.cfm

also read this Ti(d)(t) bit
**************************
chief of the U.S. liaison office in China (1974–75), and director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) (1976–77).
***
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise. Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

***
Helloooooo citizens of spin city, ever heard of the story of Mohini Bhasmasura ? :lol:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Sunil » 21 Jan 2004 21:14

Jumrao,

> citizens of spin city..

I don't think they are listening. That savant berzinski is going to kill us all.

Hi all,

> In a full-page newspaper advertisement the Pakistani commerce ministry has published an application form for the export of 11 radioactive substances, including depleted uranium, enriched uranium, plutonium and tritium, and 17 types of equipment, including nuclear power reactors, nuclear research reactors and reactor control systems.

If I claim that this is a list of things that have already been sold without a transparent monitoring system can someone prove me wrong?

All this public dirty laundry washing makes total sense now. This is Pakistan's way of legitimizing its covert proliferation activities heretofore and creating a pedestal for doing all the stuff legally now.

I bet my chair that they are going to go through a massive exercise of investigating all those senior people and then they will let them off as being `innocent' or with a slap on the wrist, saying `don't do it illegally again' - meaning next time do it legally through all the channels we have set up.

The non-proliferation community in the US can please begin searching for new jobs now.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 21 Jan 2004 21:27

you want more laughter at the SOuth Asian
exper_tease in Spin city. :D

read this
State Department opposition centers on concern over potential leakage of technology due to a lack of export laws and safeguards of technologies in India. "We have seen India attempting to take steps [to control such leakage] but in many cases not being able to finish the process," said a senior State Department official
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Looks like everybody is a standup in the spin city. (did you notice even yesterday when the president was speaking on a solemn occasion they had to do the stand up in his presence seriuosly)
:lol:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Vijay J » 21 Jan 2004 23:32

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040121/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_nuclear_detentions_7

Several scientists were detained in a first wave of questioning that began late last year, including Mohammad Farooq, the former director general of Khan Research Laboratories, Pakistan's top nuclear weapons lab, and Yasin Chuhan, a senior engineer at the lab.

At least one other person, whose name has not been revealed, was also taken in at the time, but Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said only Farooq remains in custody from the first detentions.

Eight more scientists and engineers were detained over the weekend, sparking an outcry by family members accustomed to being treated as heroes in a country deeply proud of having produced the only "Islamic bomb" as a deterrent to nuclear-armed rival India.

A small cadre of family members gathered in the rain outside Parliament on Wednesday to protest the detentions.

Protesters held placards with slogans such as "Where is my husband?" and "Why are you disgracing national heroes?"

"First, they treated them as heroes of the nation," Sobia Nazeer Ahmad, the daughter of one of those detained, said Tuesday. "Then they treated them like criminals."

Ahmed on Wednesday insisted the detained scientists and engineers detained were the government's "honored guests," not prisoners. Ahmed promised that family visits were being arranged with the scientists and that the questioning would be over "within a week."

He also said the men were innocent until proven guilty and that most would likely be cleared.

"We are conducting these debriefings to dispel the propaganda against Pakistan's nuclear program," he said, adding that the country was against nuclear proliferation.

Relatives of the detained men question the government figures, saying as many as 24 people, many of them respected scientists, may be in custody. Family members say the government has not said where the men are being held or when they might be released.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Vijay J » 21 Jan 2004 23:34

http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/21/top5.htm

ISLAMABAD, Jan 20: Some scientists of the Khan Research Laboratories, including Dr Saeed, who had been picked up by a secret agency some time ago for "debriefing", were released on Tuesday , the federal information minister and sources close to one of the released scientists said.

Information Minister Shaikh Rashid Ahmed confirmed that some of the KRL scientists had been released but did not specify their exact number or their names.

"I will be in a position to give details about the released officials on Wednesday," he said. A source close to Dr Saeed, who was picked up on Dec 3, 2003, said the scientist arrived at his home at about 1pm, adding he (Dr Saeed) had been told not to disclose anything about the debriefing session and he was not forthcoming in this regard even to the members of his own family.

Meanwhile, family members of another senior KRL official, Muhammad Farooq, who was reportedly picked up on Nov 23, 2003, said he had not been released so far.

Mr Farooq's daughter said her family had been receiving telephone calls since Tuesday morning from people who wanted to confirmed if her father had been released.

She said her family had met her father Muhammad Farooq at a house probably located in sector G-9/1 on Dec 1. The meeting was arranged by some officials of the Inter-Services Intelligence, she added.


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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby svinayak » 21 Jan 2004 23:45

Originally posted by ramana:
Very fascinating story is unfolding. So TSP offered to Iraq designs obtained in 1980s from CERN. It then under Gen. Beg transferred centrifuge designs etc from 1988 onwards to Iran. Mind you this was right after the gruesome Iran-Iraq war ended. So where was the Sunni-Shia divide supposed to be guiding the TSP? What did KSA think about all this - especially with Iran under the Ayatollahs!
And while this was going on Libya enters the picture. Again a radical regime at odds with KSA. Looks like TSP was destabilizing the Arab world above all.
The above events are due to dialogue between Unkil and TSP. The talk was about permission to attack the eastern nieghbour after Zia death. Since it was not allowed the successors to Zia started proliferating to take revenge. Hence KSA was not part of this deal.
KSA cameup after the afghan picture became clear and Taliban was created in 1994. Hence the Taliban front was a deception to stop proliferation which started in 1988.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Sunil » 21 Jan 2004 23:58

Ramana and Acharya,

The US cut aid to Pakistan citing that it was no longer able to guarentee that Pakistan was not making nuclear weapons. Perhaps in order to spite the US for this step, MAB and company authorised sales of nuclear tech to Iran.

Zia went out in a blaze of glory. He had effectively stared Brasstacks and the one before that down. Per Pakistani piskology (copyright Shiv) at the time they were convinced that they had nothing to fear from India. Op K2 was in full swing at the time and Siachen was bleeding India more than it was bleeding Pakistan, and India would breakup on her own per Pakistani logic. So Zia was King - except that is for his inability to get the US to let Pakistan make more nukes.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby svinayak » 22 Jan 2004 00:04

The US aid was cut in 1990 after US realised that the Paki jehadi army cannot be controlled. But from 1988 to 1990 they tried to create an alternate employment for the PA.
They could create the employment effectively only after Taliban came to existence.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Sunil » 22 Jan 2004 00:06

Hi Acharya,

US pressure to avoid doing nuclear stuff were there even before 1988. Actually one Pakistani theory is that the US killed Zia because he was too gung-ho about going nuclear. Recall there were the Chinese missile and weapons tech transfers in the period before this.

So I may have got the aid cut timing mixed up but I think the broad factors still hold. BTW.. I just realized we don't have an exact date on the transfers to Iran.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby jarugn » 22 Jan 2004 00:47

TSP sent teams to Libya and Iran before detaining scenetists.

Sounds like a massive cover up to get off uncle from the back!

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGANCG3TPPD.html

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 00:53

Here is a time line of Iran - Pakistani Nookular engagements

http://www.nti.org/e_research/e1_iran_nch_1988.html

http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1998/03/13/us/us.3.html

*****
Read this nugget

Khalid Hasan
General Ziaul Haq extracted a promise from President Ronald Reagan as the war in Afghanistan raged that Pakistan would work with the CIA against the Soviets in return for massive US aid and a US promise “to look the other way” when it came to Pakistan’s nuclear programme, which was then on the verge of producing a weapon.
According to ‘Charlie Wilson’s War,’ a book about former congressman Charlie Wilson, Zia had no illusions about Reagan standing up for Pakistan if Congress found out what was going on. Stephen Solarz, chairman of the sub-committee in the House dealing with South Asia was no friend of Pakistan and was getting ready to order hearings so that aid to Pakistan could be cut.

The book says that in 1985, the CIA had managed to penetrate Pakistan’s nuclear programme and was reporting on its progress. At the Solarz hearings, the CIA said that if funding to Pakistan was cut, Gen Zia might present a bill to the US for helping the CIA in Afghanistan running into several billion dollars a year. Zia told Washington’s UN ambassador Vernon Walters that Pakistan was not making a bomb. When later two senior State Department officials told the military president that he had misrepresented the situation, <h3>Zia replied, “It is permissible to lie for Islam.” </h3> <small> ha ha did we hear that from Mushy recently, 'Even the prohphet (PBUH) made a pact with jews' </small>
Despite continuing US pressure, Pakistan did not stop work on the bomb.

Wilson, the book claims, was also responsible for “putting Pakistan and Israel together” in a “back channel of communications and areas of mutual interest that they were pursuing. This was of enormous value to Pakistan which otherwise would have had to worry more about Israel sending planes or saboteurs to blow up its nuclear facilities.” <small> I had said this before dear reader </small>
Wilson maintains in the book that it was clear to the administration that “without Zia running Pakistan by martial law, there could be no Afghan war”. Solarz, who was working ceaselessly to have all aid to Pakistan cut off, was confronted at a Pakistan embassy dinner by Zbigniew Brzezinski, former US national security adviser, who asked him point blank if he knew what the success of his move would result in. The Afghan resistance would collapse. The Soviets would triumph. The Zia government in Pakistan would disappear and be replaced by an anti-American one in Pakistan armed with a nuclear weapon. <small> Same old same old Blcak mail story like old wine in new bottle is dole out by callin povell and his buddies </small>

To fight the opposition to Pakistan in Congress, Wilson organised a powerful delegation to Pakistan during the Thanksgiving holiday when Americans normally don’t leave home. <h3>In a speech at the official banquet, he turned to Zia and said, “Mr President, as far I’m concerned you can make all the bombs you want because you are our friends and they, the Indians, are our enemies.</h3> But not all Americans feel the same way, and there are some questions, Mr President, that you have to answer because this issue is getting hot.” In answer, Zia put away his prepared speech, sent out all the attendants, had the door bolted and assured the congressmen that Pakistan’s nuclear programme was peaceful and <h3>that it would never build a delivery system.</h3>
<small> How true the Pakis never built any delivery systems , because they couldnt and got Chinese/ or the Long Dongs to do that. And China my dear reader is hon Strategic partner in controlling proliferation!!</small>

He said at this stage in the Afghan war, if the Americans cut off aid, it would amount to a “betrayal of history.”

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rangudu » 22 Jan 2004 00:57

Hot off the presses.

Looks like the cover up is heading to an conclusion with Unkil's connivance.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040121-020055-3823r

Pakistan warned against nuclear ring

By Anwar Iqbal
UPI South Asian Affairs Analyst
Published 1/21/2004 2:27 PM

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, Jan. 21 (UPI) -- The U.N. nuclear watchdog has warned Pakistan that some of its scientists may have been involved with an international ring of smugglers dealing in nuclear equipment and technology, senior Pakistani officials told United Press International.

The Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency also has given Pakistan a list of six suspects involved in this racket, which includes at least two Pakistanis, the officials said.

"We first heard of some names from the Iranians and then from the IAEA," Pakistan's Foreign Minister Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri told UPI in Islamabad on Wednesday.

The foreign minister did not disclose the names but said the list includes "some Europeans possibly based in the Gulf and one or two Pakistani names."

Kasuri also disclosed that Iran gave the list to Pakistan soon after it conveyed the names to the IAEA late last year.

During the last two months, Pakistan has detained at least eight officials and scientists attached with the country's top nuclear facility, the Khan Research Laboratories, near Islamabad.

Although Pakistani officials deny that the father of the country's nuclear bomb, Dr. A. Q. Khan, is among those detained, they have acknowledged that he has been debriefed by the Pakistani intelligence agencies.

Khan is not allowed to meet journalists or to attend public gatherings without prior permission from the government and has not been seen in public for some time.

Soon after receiving the IAEA letter in mid-December, Pakistan ordered the country's top nuclear watchdog, the Strategic Planning Division of the Nuclear Command Authority, to conduct a thorough investigation, officials said.

Officials at the SPD indicated to UPI that they are close to winding up their investigation and will soon send their report to President Pervez Musharraf who told his parliament last week that Pakistan needs to satisfy international concerns about its nuclear program.

Investigations conducted by UPI show that the IAEA has informed Pakistan that individuals working for various Pakistani nuclear facilities have provided both nuclear know-how and technology to Iran.

Although the IAEA letter does not mention North Korea or Libya, reports in the Western media have claimed that these two countries might also have received assistance from Pakistani individuals.

Both North Korea and Libya deny receiving any assistance from Pakistan and officials in Islamabad also have rejected these allegations as "malicious" and "baseless."

UPI has learned that most of the nuclear transactions from Pakistan to Iran took place in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when the country's nuclear program was still in its initial stages and Pakistan did not have an effective command and control system.

Foreign Minister Kasuri also confirmed this. "Such transactions, by individuals, happened in the 1980s. Even some recent reports refer to equipment which might have been moved at that time," he said.

Kasuri said that the equipment that Iran is believed to have received from "Pakistani individuals appear outdated." Pakistan, he said, has "gone far beyond what the news reports say the Iranians have acquired."


Since 1974, when India first conducted a nuclear explosion, the Pakistani establishment, particularly the army, was consumed by a desire to match India's nuclear capability. It had formed an unofficial nuclear authority, which included both the president and prime minister of the country and the army chief. It had one-point agenda: to acquire nuclear capability and was authorized to use all possible means, both legal and illegal, to reach the target.

Even after 1998, when Pakistan tested its nuclear devices less than three weeks after similar tests by India, the Pakistani establishment did not have a proper command and control system. Since the tests had further tightened international sanctions, Pakistan also maintained clandestine routes it had established with suppliers in Western Europe and North America for acquiring equipment for its nuclear facilities.

The Nuclear Command Authority and its operational wing, the Strategic Planning Division, were effectively established in 2000, almost two years after Pakistan tested its nuclear devices.

Pakistani authorities, while talking to UPI, acknowledged that the absence of a proper control system might have allowed certain individuals within their nuclear establishment to "try and make a quick profit on the sidelines," as one of them said.

"There were certain consignments from certain addresses that customs and other law enforcement officials were not allowed to check. There were individuals who were allowed to send out and bring in anything they wanted," said the official.


Investigations conducted by Pakistani intelligence agencies indicate that certain people associated with the nuclear program might have used these channels for smuggling equipment like centrifuges that are used for purifying uranium to Iran.

The IAEA letter that Pakistan received last month also confirms this. "The IAEA has explicitly warned us that there exists an international gang of racketeers and black-marketeers ... the IAEA chief has publicly stated that he was amazed at the outreach of these racketeers," said Kasuri.

The foreign minister said that the gang had received equipment and material from other countries as well and warned that "not just Pakistan but many other countries need to look at this."

Other Pakistani officials said the IAEA letter also mentions Dubai as the possible meeting point for the gang.

The IAEA report, the officials said, also mentions Switzerland, Austria, China and Russia, besides Pakistan, as possible sources for the Iranian nuclear program. The IAEA points out that initially Iran received assistance from the United States as well, the officials said.

"But unfortunately, Pakistan is being singled out for reasons beyond our control," said Kasuri.

Pakistani officials say that all these channels were blocked once the national Nuclear Command Authority and its affiliated agencies were established. :roll: :lol:

"Pakistan has taken concrete steps for ensuring non-proliferation. These are in the knowledge of our close friends and major world powers and they are fully satisfied with those steps," said Kasuri.

The U.S. administration is also satisfied with these measures and has publicly said so."

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby ldev » 22 Jan 2004 01:01

Originally posted by sunil s:

I just realized we don't have an exact date on the transfers to Iran.
Sunil,

It may have been just before the alleged trisonic flights over Iran - sometime in the 1980s, dont have an exact fix.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Umrao » 22 Jan 2004 01:05

Even after 1998, when Pakistan tested its nuclear devices less than three weeks after similar tests by India, the Pakistani establishment did not have a proper command and control system.
;)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Rangudu » 22 Jan 2004 01:16

Thus spake Non-proliferation jihadi Gary Milhollin in a recent NPR interview.

I frankly didn't expect the Pakistanis to become an export problem. I always expected that the Pakistanis would simply be content to build a nuclear deterrent to India and stop there. But, unfortunately, I was wrong about that.
:roll:

If there is even a bit of self-respect left Milhollin and his ilk, they'd end their careers and take "sanyas" for the rest of their lives. There has never been an instance of a group of academics who were so consistently wrong and indeed proven so and who still come back and shamelessly peddle their tripe.

What an imbecile bunch of intellecutal cowards!!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Johann » 22 Jan 2004 01:16

Sunil,

From what I've heard the original agreement with Iran was in 1986, and the first transfer ('Pak-1' centrifuges) ocurred in 1987.

Such covert collaboration did not occur out of the blue. In the first years of the Iran-Iraq war Pakistan opened its military airfields to vital weapons shipments from North Korea and PRC to Iran.

Aslam Beg reacted to the 1990-91 Gulf War in the same way that most committed Islamists around the world. He felt angry and betrayed that the Saudis turned to the Americans and the West. Like Hekmatyar, Qazi, Bin Laden and others he publicly criticised the Saudi monarchy, which retaliated by cutting funds.

Like many other Islamists, he also turned to Iran as a potential replacement, which had not abandoned its confrontation with the West yet. He seemed to hope that Iran could become the new patron of the 'Islamic' bomb, perhaps trading conventional weapons instead of cash. This would also offset the loss caused by American military sanctions from 1989 onwards. Around the same time Hekmatyar in Afghanistan allied himself with the Iranian backed Shia Hezbi Wahadat, and against Massood and Rasool Sayyaf, a Salafi who remained loyal to al-Saud.

Unfortunately for Aslam Beg, most of the Pakistani establishment were not as committed to the Islamist cause for its own sake, and Iran itself was also slowly moving away from confrontation with the West.

Beg was tossed out along with Hekmatyar, relations were repaired with the Saudis, and Taliban Afghanistan became one of the areas that bound them together against the Iranians.

Saudi-Pakistani relations were in many ways stronger in the 1990s than the 1980s.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Kanu » 22 Jan 2004 01:33

Originally posted by Rangudu:
Thus spake Non-proliferation jihadi Gary Milhollin in a recent NPR interview.

I frankly didn't expect the Pakistanis to become an export problem. I always expected that the Pakistanis would simply be content to build a nuclear deterrent to India and stop there. But, unfortunately, I was wrong about that.
:roll:

If there is even a bit of self-respect left Milhollin and his ilk, they'd end their careers and take "sanyas" for the rest of their lives. There has never been an instance of a group of academics who were so consistently wrong and indeed proven so and who still come back and shamelessly peddle their tripe.

What an imbecile bunch of intellecutal cowards!!
There is some serious denial going on amongst these folks. We have been right everytime yet they see us as a threat, for God's sake admit it that the real threat is the damn TSOP. Its so obvious yet some people live in their own bubble, namely the State Dept! :lol:

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Sunil » 22 Jan 2004 01:36

Johann,

> From what I've heard the original agreement with Iran was in 1986, and the first transfer ('Pak-1' centrifuges) ocurred in 1987.

yes that sounds familiar but I can't remember where I read it.

> opened airfields for transport of Chinese and North Korean weapons systems.

I had heard of Iranian airplanes landing at Pakistani airbases but I do not have a time frame for these events.

I am guessing that given Beg's openly stated inclinations, if he did authorise anything nuclear related to Iran, it would have been out of a desire to spite the US. The Islamists of Pakistan, as I am sure you are aware were very upset at having been ditched by the US at the end of the Afghan War.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby ramana » 22 Jan 2004 01:52

I guess I should have spelt it out in my last post.
"Very fascinating story is unfolding. So TSP offered to Iraq designs obtained in 1980s from CERN. It then under Gen. Beg transferred centrifuge designs etc from 1988 onwards to Iran.
This shows TSP was playing both sides of the Arab-Iranian divide in addition to the Sunni-Shia divide. And this happened while the US had the Contra hearings going on where the US was found to be courting the Ayotollahs to get the US hostages released from Lebanoon

Mind you this was right after the gruesome Iran-Iraq war ended. So where was the Sunni-Shia divide supposed to be guiding the TSP? What did KSA think about all this - especially with Iran under the Ayatollahs!
The Iran-Iraq war started because of the ideological divide between Khomenism and Wahabi Saudis. Iranian adherents even tried to take over the Grand Mosque. And here TSP was aiding the Iranians. In 1987 the KSA threw out the TSP contingent. And also obtained long range CSS2 missiles from China to counter threat of Iranian missiles.

And while this was going on Libya enters the picture. Again a radical regime at odds with KSA.
Gaddafi belongs to the Nasserite school which wants overthrow the monarchies and sheikdoms. So this was another blow to KSA
Looks like TSP was destabilizing the Arab world above all. "
Not to mention ratchetting the tensions with India during the same time. Beg was quite an achiever by ummah standards!

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Prateek » 22 Jan 2004 01:57

From intelligenceonline.net

Pak hand in Burma’s N-programme
19 January 2004: Pakistan’s controversial nuclear scientist, A.Q.Khan’s private secretary and at least two scientists, M.L.Razzak and A.S.Saha, held high-level meetings in the Burmese capital of Yangon in August 2001, and subsequently followed up with several visits, with their Myanmarese visiting them in turn.


Diplomatic sources said that the two sides held meetings of escalating importance on nuclear technology transfer, and the exchanges began two months after General Pervez Musharraf made a high-profile visit to Myanmar in May 2001, less than a year after Burma’s army chief, General Khin Nyunt, visited Islamabad.

In November 2001, Pakistan slipped away two of his nuclear scientists, Muhammad Ali Mukhtar and Suleiman Asad, to Myanmar fearing interrogation by American agencies for their links to the AL-Qaeda.

We have previously reported China’s involvement in the sale of North-Korean ballistic missiles to Myanmar to counter India (Intelligence, “N.Korea ballistic missiles for Burma likely,” 14 October 2003), and Pakistan is now exposed as its nuclear collaborator with Beijing’s approval and encouragement.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Prateek » 22 Jan 2004 02:00

It appears that eventually the evil pentagon (China, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, NKorea and Iran) created by the Evil empire in Beijing will show up its face. :) It has to one day, Since it is not a myth. While the emperor will escape and survive (perhaps being a P5 member will give it some immunity :)

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Sunil » 22 Jan 2004 02:08

Ramana,

I completely missed that but it does put a lot of things in perspective.

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Leonard » 22 Jan 2004 02:12


SA 'nuke dealer's' shady past


Matthew Burbidge | Johannesburg

19 January 2004 14:49


Alleged nuclear weapons dealer Asher Karni (50) was fired from a South African company last year after it emerged that he had been secretly trading under his own name.

National chairperson of the Jewish Board of Deputies and labour lawyer Michael Bagraim, who was acting on behalf of a company called Eagle Technology, told the Mail & Guardian Online on Monday that he had dismissed Karni at a disciplinary hearing held last year at his offices in Cape Town.

Bagraim said it had come to light that Karni had been trading under his own name while employed at South African company Eagle Technology. Eagle Technology imports and manufactures components used in the medical, scientific and military industries.

Karni is now in jail in Denver, Colorado, and has been accused of supplying trigger devices to Pakistan that could be used to detonate nuclear weapons. He faces a 10-year jail sentence if convicted.

According to the New York Times US authorities charge in court documents that Karni was at the centre of a global operation that used front companies and false billing records to route the trigger devices from a private manufacturer in the US to South Africa, the United Arab Emirates and ultimately Pakistan.

Karni faces charges under the United States Export Administration Act. US officials arrested Karni at the Denver International airport on January 2, after he arrived for a skiing holiday with his family.

Speaking about Karni's dismissal, Bagraim said Eagle Technology had first got wind of Karni's dealings when some of its clients had contacted it and said that Karni was offering them products at cheaper prices.

Bagraim said Karni had disagreed with the disciplinary hearing's findings, and the matter was then referred to the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA).

Bagraim said he had then cross-examined Karni at the CCMA about his private arms deals for four days, after which Karni withdrew his case.

"It became absolutely clear that he was trading for his own account. In getting to that point we had to cross-examine about his private dealings. We also cross-examined him about the accounts of Top-Cape and Mask and where the money came from, and that became a bit embarrassing."

Karni owns a company called Top-Cape Technology, located in Cape Town. The company's website reports that Karni arrived in South Africa in 1985 and has a BSc degree from Bar Ilan University and an MBA from Tel Aviv University.

The website also reports that Top-Cape offers "a wide range of electronics products for the commercial and military industry". It reports that Karni's "experience, integrity, honesty and friendliness placed him and his company as prime supplier to the local and international electronics market place".

This weekend, the Sunday Times reported that a close associate of Karni's tipped off US authorities about the deal. The paper said the source had supplied US authorities with a disk apparently containing e-mails that had allegedly been exchanged between Cape Town-based Karni and Pakistani weapons buyers.

A US magistrate ruled last week that Karni could be released on a $75 000 cash bond, but the US government has appealed that decision. US prosecutors in Washington DC are expected to argue this week for Karni's continued detention. Prosecutors are to argue that if Karni were released on bail, he would flee to Israel or South Africa.

Rabbi Jonathan Altman of the Beit Midrash Morasha in Arthur's Road, Sea Point, Cape Town, told the Mail & Guardian Online on Monday that he had known Karni for two years, and that he was "very charitable and well liked".

Altman said it had come as a shock that such allegations had been put to such a person, and that it was the court's role to judge.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=29845&t=1

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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 25 Dec 2003

Postby Johann » 22 Jan 2004 02:37

Sunil,

The original centrifuge transfers ocurred under Zia at the height of the Afghan war, and at the height of American support.

Beg in 1991 was suggesting a new dimension to the Pakistani-Iranian nuclear relationship, and in fact making that the center of a strategic Pakistani-Iranian relationship to lead the ummah. As far as timing is concerned the key breach here was not with the US, but with Saudi Arabia, and it was prompted by Saudi choices in the Gulf War.

Its not very different from the way Osama Bin Laden broke with the Saudis, and then turned towards the Iranians during his period in Sudan. Khatami's election in 1997 ended that kind of relationship.

To Islamists like Beg, Qazi, Hekmatyar, OBL, etc, Saudi reliance on the West in the Gulf War undermined the image and rhetoric of 'Islamic brotherhood' they needed to sustain their movements. They blamed the Americans of course, designating them for the first time as the 'number one enemy of Islam', but they also feared that Al-Saud could no longer be relied upon for the driving support it had supplied since the early 1960s.

Ramana,

Libyan interest in the Pakistani bomb dates back to the 1970s, but the Libyans and Pakistanis fell out over the lack of Libyan access to the programme. The recent revelations referred to a second, much more recent go at it. This time the Libyans were not paying the Pakistanis for a finished product. They were paying the Pakistanis to help them, the Libyans build it.

The Saudis supported the Iran-Iraq war generously for sectarian reasons of course, but the almost the entire Arab world (with the exception of Syria, Iraq's rival for Ba'athist leadership), secular and fundamentalist were in favour of it. They all feared the revolution for their own reasons. In fact the war rehabilitated Egypt, which had been ostracised for signing a separate peace with Israel in 1979.

A perception of contributing to Arab and Islamic brotherhood always contributes to the popularity and legitimacy of governments in those countries, so they are reluctant to miss out on an opportunity to endorse an Arab or Islamic cause. The Palestinians, the Afghans, the Iraqis. The longer the war, the better.


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