Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analysis-I

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deejay
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by deejay »

Anujan ji great post. All other discussions (including my posts) are wasting time. Now that you have pointed out very clearly I don't see why we should persist on the old scheme of things unless it is deliberate.

Just a suggestion :

May require moderation but can we start digging into what you have listed instead of self depreciation and calling everything India bad.
1. Why did Pakis do this so soon after Modiji's visit which indicated talks were about to be started
2. Does Badmash know and is playing a double game or is he just Mayor of Isloo and has no control over whatever TFTAs want
3. Badmash's brother is CM of Pakjab. How can huge terror training camps exist in his state without him knowing
4. What's up with the drug trade. Who are the fronts and behinds of it?
Karan M
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

For the caterwaulers & generally interested folks. Oh we should not compare.

Why?? Because it shows their politically motivated rubbish to be shown for what it is.

So an attack which was conducted on an AFB by the same type of attackers who attacked an IAF base, with similar training should be ignored. Inconvenient.

Camp Bastion Raid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September ... stion_raid
US/UK
Several hundred with Anglo-American air support
Casualties and losses
2 killed
9 wounded
8 aircraft destroyed or severely damaged

Taliban (IOW same jokers trained by SSG/Pak mil who are sent against us)
15 fighters
14 killed
1 (POW)
...............

SriLanka vs LTTE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandarana ... ort_attack
1 military garrison
Casualties and losses
7 killed, 12 wounded
Aircraft destroyed:
1 Mi-17 attack helicopter,
1 Mi-24 attack helicopter,
3 K-8 jet trainers,
2 Kfir fighter jets,
1 MiG-27 fighter jet,
3 Airbuses
Aircraft damaged:
5 K-8 jet trainers,
5 Kfir fighter jets,
1 MiG-27 fighter jet,
2 Airbuses,
1 other military aircraft
LTTE
14 suicide commandos
.............

Bad Taliban attack on PAF
March 21/13: Need a fix.

Saab announces a 5-year, SEK 1.1 billion ($170 million) contract that runs from 2013-2017, and covers a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control).” Unfortunately, “The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.”

The answer seemed obvious. Air forces using Saab turboprop AWACS include Sweden, Thailand and the UAE (Saab 340), and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (stretched Saab 2000 variant). Pakistan’s sale is well known and hasn’t been secret, so a Saab 2000 AEW&C customer insisting on secrecy must mean… Saudi Arabia.

Except that we might have been wrong. What even the February revelations in Pakistan hadn’t disclosed is that the attack on Minhas AB in Pakistan happened with 3 Erieye planes on the ground. One was destroyed – but 2 others were very badly damaged. That leaves Pakistan with a fleet of just 1 plane, until it gets those 2 fixed. That could explain this $170 million contract, with the sudden secrecy invoked because Pakistan doesn’t want to publicly admit the extent of the loss; indeed, if Saab doesn’t announce a separate SEK 1+ billion support contract soon, the default assumption for this deal must become Pakistan. The problem for Sweden, says Sweden’s Dagens Industri in an April 10/13 article, is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006 credit arrangement of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they’ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn’t viewed as a terrific credit risk.

...


Understand this, if you still CANNOT.

The speed at which NSA & IA/IAF/NSG acted prevented major losses. This time around. This is despite the rubbish that happened with PP.

There will be FURTHER attacks.

Some may succeed. Others wont.

The aim should be to deter TSP within TSP & build up conventional capabilities.


Or sit and wear political parochialism on the sleeve and curse Modi for leading a nation which has a wonderful neighbor.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by sudeepj »

That we lost 7 people is a really shitty fact, but one that is attributable to long term policy failures, not in much that Doval/DSC/others did. I feel its really bad form to question operations at a tactical level.. The people who laid their lives on the line did the best that they could given their training and resources. Those guys paid with their lives, what more can we ask for as a nation?

Perhaps the only thing that could have been better in the operation is that there should have been a heavier deployment of the Army but in recent encounters in Kashmir, for instance in Hafruda forests, even the SF have paid a relatively heavy price for each rat killed. And all airforce assets were protected, so I am not sure deploying the army/SF in a luka-chipi game would necessarily have had better results.

The other perspective is, how will the Garuds learn how to fly, if not in conditions like this? They look like they have the best tactical gear.. If from this episode it turns out that Garuds need better weapons, higher numbers, better training, then that is a lesson that they needed to learn and perhaps this was the only way in which they could learn it! Any force bleeds when it first faces fire.

Personally, I find it really disgraceful that writers with political connections are not disclosing their conflicts of interest before writing OpEds and their analysis. Gen Panag and Shukla come to mind right away.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Aditya G »

When was the last time we placed security forces in advance of imminent attack, that too the very specific attack?

http://m.rediff.com/news/special/blow-b ... 160107.htm

Nitin Gokhale, founder, BharatShakti.in, reports on how quick decisions saved a repeat of a Mumbai-like carnage at the key air force base.



As more details emerge on the Pathankot terror strike and India's response, it is becoming increasingly clear that the quick decision-making at the highest levels of the country's security apparatus saved a repeat of a Mumbai-like carnage at the frontline airbase.

Information pieced together from multiple conversations I have had with security officials also indicates excellent coordination at the field level, although many half-baked and ill-informed reports have appeared to the contrary.

Although there were generic intelligence reports about infiltration of terrorists into Punjab since the evening of December 31, 2015, the actual story begins post-lunch on New Year's Day when the general intelligence gets crystallised into a specific alert that the target definitely is the Pathankot air base. This is what happens in rapid succession after that:

3 pm: National Security Adviser Ajit Doval convenes a meeting to decide on the next course of action. In attendance are the Army chief, General Dalbir Singh Suhag, the Air Force chief, Air Marshal Arup Raha, and chiefs of intelligence agencies.

4 pm: Meeting concludes with specific tasks allotted to each stakeholder. Army moves nine columns (nearly 1,000 men) from nearby cantonments into the Pathankot airbase.

The National Security Guard is told to get ready with two teams to be flown out from Manesar near Delhi as soon as possible.

6 pm: Army columns start arriving into the air base and get deployed at key locations. Their main task: To secure the air assets in the technical area (fighter aircraft, helicopters, missiles, ammunition dump, etc) and guard the residential quarters that house nearly 3,000 families within the base.

In Delhi NSG teams emplane for Pathankot. They are being pre-positioned in case any hostage situation develops or the terrorists get into houses or built-up areas.

9 pm: The technical area is sealed; NSG gets deployed. The wait and search for terrorists begins. There is no definite information on their exact location.

January 2, 3.30 am: Gunfire is heard; the terrorists have emerged from hiding and have entered the cookhouse of the Defence Security Corps personnel. Four unarmed personnel of the force get killed instantly. One of their unarmed colleagues runs after a terrorist, turns his gun on him and kills him before being shot by other terrorists.

Moments later, a Garud commando confronts the other terrorists, gets shot.


Daybreak: Hunt begins for the well-armed terrorists and a cordon is thrown around a small area of 250 metres by 250 metres. They are suspected to have entered into a building.

By evening, four terrorists are eliminated, one by one, by the army troops who come into action immediately.

After nightfall, the focus area is kept under surveillance with floodlights keeping the area lit. Intermittent firing continues. The advantage is now with the security forces; they have confined the terrorists to a small patch and have the luxury of time to eliminate them in daylight.

Next day the remaining two terrorists are eliminated, but not before a lieutenant colonel dies during the removal of the body of a slain terrorist.

Key takeaways: In the absence of key ministers like Rajnath Singh (home) and Manohar Parrikar (defence) from the capital on January 1, there was no time to lose, to wait for the Cabinet Committee on Security to meet.

Instant decision had to be taken, which was done by the NSA in consultation with the key stakeholders. The swift action saved the day in Pathankot.

Moreover, the terrorists were eliminated before they could achieve their key objective of destroying the air assets or take hostages in the base.

The criticism that the operation took too long is a matter of opinion. If the terrorists were neutralised without losing any further men, it is to the credit of the security forces and their coordination on the ground, notwithstanding the time they took.

There will, of course, be questions asked about the ease with which the terrorists managed to cross the border and also get into the airbase without being detected, but that is a matter of review and revamp.

For the moment, all key players -- from NSA Ajit Doval to senior officers, from the brave but unheralded men of the DSC to the ground troops of the Indian Army, the Garud commandos and the NSG -- need to be commended for a clinically executed anti-terror operation.
Last edited by ramana on 08 Jan 2016 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added bold ramana
Karan M
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

Aditya, I am going to requote this with the key items in bold. So all the rubbish about excellence and this and that is repudiated.
Aditya G wrote:http://m.rediff.com/news/special/blow-b ... 160107.htm

Nitin Gokhale, founder, BharatShakti.in, reports on how quick decisions saved a repeat of a Mumbai-like carnage at the key air force base.

As more details emerge on the Pathankot terror strike and India's response, it is becoming increasingly clear that the quick decision-making at the highest levels of the country's security apparatus saved a repeat of a Mumbai-like carnage at the frontline airbase.

Information pieced together from multiple conversations I have had with security officials also indicates excellent coordination at the field level, although many half-baked and ill-informed reports have appeared to the contrary.

Although there were generic intelligence reports about infiltration of terrorists into Punjab since the evening of December 31, 2015, the actual story begins post-lunch on New Year's Day when the general intelligence gets crystallised into a specific alert that the target definitely is the Pathankot air base. This is what happens in rapid succession after that:

3 pm: National Security Adviser Ajit Doval convenes a meeting to decide on the next course of action. In attendance are the Army chief, General Dalbir Singh Suhag, the Air Force chief, Air Marshal Arup Raha, and chiefs of intelligence agencies.


4 pm: Meeting concludes with specific tasks allotted to each stakeholder. Army moves nine columns (nearly 1,000 men) from nearby cantonments into the Pathankot airbase.

The National Security Guard is told to get ready with two teams to be flown out from Manesar near Delhi as soon as possible.

6 pm: Army columns start arriving into the air base and get deployed at key locations. Their main task: To secure the air assets in the technical area (fighter aircraft, helicopters, missiles, ammunition dump, etc) and guard the residential quarters that house nearly 3,000 families within the base.


In Delhi NSG teams emplane for Pathankot. They are being pre-positioned in case any hostage situation develops or the terrorists get into houses or built-up areas.

9 pm: The technical area is sealed; NSG gets deployed. The wait and search for terrorists begins. There is no definite information on their exact location.

January 2, 3.30 am: Gunfire is heard; the terrorists have emerged from hiding and have entered the cookhouse of the Defence Security Corps personnel. Four unarmed personnel of the force get killed instantly. One of their unarmed colleagues runs after a terrorist, turns his gun on him and kills him before being shot by other terrorists.

Moments later, a Garud commando confronts the other terrorists, gets shot.

Daybreak: Hunt begins for the well-armed terrorists and a cordon is thrown around a small area of 250 metres by 250 metres. They are suspected to have entered into a building.

By evening, four terrorists are eliminated, one by one, by the army troops who come into action immediately.

After nightfall, the focus area is kept under surveillance with floodlights keeping the area lit. Intermittent firing continues. The advantage is now with the security forces; they have confined the terrorists to a small patch and have the luxury of time to eliminate them in daylight.

Next day the remaining two terrorists are eliminated, but not before a lieutenant colonel dies during the removal of the body of a slain terrorist.

Key takeaways: In the absence of key ministers like Rajnath Singh (home) and Manohar Parrikar (defence) from the capital on January 1, there was no time to lose, to wait for the Cabinet Committee on Security to meet.

Instant decision had to be taken, which was done by the NSA in consultation with the key stakeholders. The swift action saved the day in Pathankot.

Moreover, the terrorists were eliminated before they could achieve their key objective of destroying the air assets or take hostages in the base.

The criticism that the operation took too long is a matter of opinion. If the terrorists were neutralised without losing any further men, it is to the credit of the security forces and their coordination on the ground, notwithstanding the time they took.

There will, of course, be questions asked about the ease with which the terrorists managed to cross the border and also get into the airbase without being detected, but that is a matter of review and revamp.

For the moment, all key players -- from NSA Ajit Doval to senior officers, from the brave but unheralded men of the DSC to the ground troops of the Indian Army, the Garud commandos and the NSG -- need to be commended for a clinically executed anti-terror operation.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by sudeepj »

rajanb wrote:I wouldn't blame the Armed Forces chiefs.
Unless they are politically appointed?

Camp Bastion attack?
So we do not set our own standards?
We compare? Do you even comprehend the term excellence?
A country with millennia of history and knowledge, stoops to compare with Camp Bastion?

This line of commentary is really strange to say the least. You compare with the US when its convenient to you and say 'we are better' at other times.

When the bullets start flying in a tactical situation, its obvious that sometimes people at all levels will make mistakes. To berate them in such a manner is not right.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Sid »

chetak wrote: the paramilitary forces like ITBP, BSF etc are as tough and as well trained. Some other paramilitary forces are not as extensively trained because their job description does not require/warrant such continuous, intense and very expensive training as well as the costly maintenance of the keen battle ready edge.

I have worked in the forces, worked outside, met people from all services who were extended and those who were not allowed to extend. I helped many of them who left to get a job because it was in my good fortune to have access to create such openings. Almost all my staff were and currently are ex military. I am not generalizing. The guidelines for extensions are rigidly formulated and even more ruthlessly implemented. At my level of filtering, in the service, I had to turn down many dozens of requests for extensions. Both by officers and men. It made me feel bad, momentarily. We all moved on. Of course, many contested such decisions and did not agree with me or even other similarly placed officers on the refusals but I cannot recall a single instance where such decisions were overturned. I have of course known/heard of officers with political patti, who got what they wanted. Shit happens.

The DSC are professional soldiers but with known limited capabilities and are accepted as such for specialized duties. no one is berating them in any way.
Underline part if the most important one. For rest of your points I do agree with you.

Our disagreement was only on how we perceived Gen Panag's email, which my opinion is still BS. FYI, check his twitter handle too.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Anujan »

My post was not to stifle debate. Our AF and even netas are reasonably smart and competent. (For example, Chidambaram's NCTC was a reasonably good idea, was junked because no state wanted yet another central agency with powers of arrest within their own state). So our AF, Netas, NSA and security apparatus will learn after they dissect this incident. If DSC was ineffective, they will reform it. If mandate of Garuds were vague, they will set it right. If NSG is suited only for CQB, Army SF will be brought in for such ops in the future. Collectively from Shukla-ji to everyone screaming over their shoulders while they go about studying and learning is probably a waste of time.

Recall that in JK, though it took a few years, we did come up with concepts like area domination and put an anti-terror grid.

On the other hand, some "universal truths" of Pakis have not been debated or disseminated widely.

I still clearly recall, an article in India today during Kargil war which went along the lines of "Nobody known if it was Mujahids or regular army, India says its Paki regulars but who knows really?". Given the arms and ammo that they had and given that they were using artillery and even aircraft for patrolling and given that they had MANPADS such a debate now seems silly. But trust me, for years, in papers like Hindu/Indian Express, "Were they really regulars?!" was debated. Even then questions were asked how "rag tag jihadis" could resist our army for so many months.

Even now, if Musharraf or someone gives an interview, and has a slipup, our DDM breathlessly proclaims "MUSHARRAF ADMITS ARMY REGULARS FOUGHT IN KARGIL!!!! ZOMG!!!!". Like that is news. We havent internalized and disseminated that when ABV was looking to normalize ties, Pakistan FOUGHT A WAR with us. No anchor asks their Paki guest this question in so many words and no article has been written clearly stating this and asking "What has changed now anyway? Whether or not Nawaz knew about Kargil is immaterial, point is, either he doesnt contol the army and/or we arent willing to acquiesce to what they really want, which is destruction of India"

Similarly this attack and also Mumbai. In the huge din and noise of what really happened, could we have reacted better, we fail to grasp that this was a state sponsored special forces raid. It should be called as such and debated as such. Mango SDREs, once they grasp this is when they will start thinking what our options are.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by SRoy »

I think Karan just quoted the example of Camp Bastion to press a point.

Basic thought process is that threat perception has changed. DSC alone cannot respond. SF (IA SF / Garud / MARCOS )are too few in numbers.

Why not impart basic infantry training to every combatant?

The larger issue of Pakis having brought the war to our door steps (as pointed out by Shiv and Anujan) is something to be dealt upon, in the mean while in short term there are smaller far flung military facilities virtually unguarded.
Any assault on these isolated locations need to be defended by tradesmen posted there itself.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

deejay wrote:Now I am a loyal forces guy but I have scant respect for Lt Gen Panag. Also, he is not new to controversy and making statements to discredit the IA.

While the link is not on current discussions but here we are questioning a lot of people to defend what Gen Panag has said so I shall post an old story to explain how much a person can be compromised. I was desisting from posting this but I am now else a lot of credit is being given to a very narrow minded act (The article has amongst its authors Praful Bidwai so read it before you shoot me). Also, this link because I have lost a better piece by someone else.

https://barmaidtoemperess.wordpress.com ... l-20-2012/
SO it now turns out, as many had suspected, that The Indian Express story alleging that there was unusual and un-notified movement on January 16 of two Army attack formations towards the national capital, which “spooked New Delhi”, was a complete fabrication. The barely hidden suggestion in the story was that the troop movement ominously took place the night before the Chief of the Army Staff General V.K. Singh moved the Supreme Court on the date of birth issue; it was a not-too-subtle way of the Army flexing its muscle against civilian authority.

The troop movement violated no protocol of standard operating procedure. Such movements need to be notified to the Defence Ministry only if they involve corps-level strength. The story appears to be wrong on other details too, and has been dismissed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Defence Minister A.K. Antony, and General V.K. Singh.

However, the real question is who fed or planted the story, and with what motive. One may never know for certain the answer to the first question, but the plausible motive seems to have been to discredit Gen. V.K. Singh. One of his detractors, former Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. H.S. Panag, said that the troop movement was an attempt by a “compromised [military] hierarchy” to “pre-empt” a likely decision by the Defence Ministry to sack the COAS. Lt Gen. Panag was relieved of his command after an anti-corruption inquiry in 2008, and has since retired. But he is a member of the Armed Forces Tribunal. Thus, it was totally out of order for him to make these remarks. A similar story was planted earlier about Gen. V.K. Singh having ordered the clandestine interception of telephone conversations involving top Defence Ministry officials. This pointed to grave indiscipline. But the charge was never substantiated.

...
Link to Lt Gen Panag's troop movement statement to Manu Pubby

http://indianexpress.com/article/news-a ... gen-panag/

While you all may disagree, this single episode was, IMVHO, the single most damaging act to the very fibre of Indian Armed Forces.

Deejay, so am I. Actually I know a bit about HS Panag's command of Northern Command. He did give a more offensive intent to the command and that did lead to some success. We don't know who it was that colluded with IE in that hatchet job on Gen VK Singh. There were rumors of someone in the PMO too. I won't take what the press says as gospel. I completely disagree with Gen Panag on some of his comments and yes, he has been quite parochial of late. DSC has an important role to play and I would never call them rag tag. They did a great job here and I salute them. Garud's of course are specialized troops and one of their key roles (you would know more Deejay) is AF installation protection against exactly this kind of attack. However Gen Panag does make two very relevant points, both of which were also made by Maroof and Gen Hasnain. And I completely concur.

1. There needs to be a clear chain of command with one person in command, both in case of attacks on civilian targets and military targets. In the latter case it must be a clearly with the military for many reasons, the principal of which is that of morale and signalling to the enemy. For these purposes NSG SAGs are military. Having them around in this case was good as a huge hostage situation could have arisen. But command, control and coordination could have been better. There is an institutional problem vis a vis the babu control here.

2. Once it was clear (and that took some time), the CASO type operations should have been lead by the Army as it was a bread and butter infantry op. But remember, in the fog of war that clarity took some time so I don't want to comment on whether more troops etc could be used.

There is too much cacophony on the media on some of these issues. I think our troops on ground showed valour again and definitely foiled the enemy. But to me the crux is this - What is our response?

We are wasting time and energy on the wrong issue. I have said this before and will say it again. The problem lies in Pakiland. How are we going to respond from a military, offensive defense, covert op, Sindh/Baluch, assassinating ISI offrs perspective.

Lets stop blaming ourselves for a terrorist/regular forces attack on our soil and figure out how we will take the battle to them !!!
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 07 Jan 2016 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

SRoy
>>I think Karan just quoted the example of Camp Bastion to press a point.

Exactly. Camp Bastion was attacked by Pak trained specialist troops the same way we were. The base was defended by US, UK's RAF Regiment (on whom, its reported the Garuds are modeled) and Tonga troops.

Things were so bad, that USMC regular pilots and maintainers (in line with USMCs everyone's a grunt) picked up guns and fought.

Even so, 8 Harriers lost & bunch of soldiers killed.

This is the quantum of threat, India faced and overcame. This time.

The Pakis will keep attacking. And as Indian citizens we need to figure out how to deter Pakistan. . Instead we have the we hate Mudi, them chauvinist indoos need to go types using this incident to make hay.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:

---
chetak what do they mean modified AK-47s not with UBGL but more like mortar launchers?

Do they mean they have 2" mortar barrel strapped to a AK-47?

Wont the 2" mortar recoil force blow your arm away?
2" mortar is about 52mm and has a baseplate to transfer the recoil forces to the ground.
awaiting further details. The authorities have already confiscated some photos taken of these weapons and have clamped down after they realized that these weapons were not standard issue.

sources have dried up for now. The spooks have taken over
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Aditya G »

Praveen swami returns. I had quoted his previous one and the timeline reported by him turned out to be total shyte.

So here is the link. Let's investigate it:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... ign=buffer

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Singha »

maybe they rigged up something like the old german panzerfaust and welded it below the gun .... beats having to carry a RPG launcher along. panzerfaust was small and light and used by hitler youth towards the end. ideal for blowing up parked aircraft quickly.

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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by chetak »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
{quote="deejay"}Now I am a loyal forces guy but I have scant respect for Lt Gen Panag. Also, he is not new to controversy and making statements to discredit the IA.

While the link is not on current discussions but here we are questioning a lot of people to defend what Gen Panag has said so I shall post an old story to explain how much a person can be compromised. I was desisting from posting this but I am now else a lot of credit is being given to a very narrow minded act (The article has amongst its authors Praful Bidwai so read it before you shoot me). Also, this link because I have lost a better piece by someone else.

https://barmaidtoemperess.wordpress.com ... l-20-2012/
SO it now turns out, as many had suspected, that The Indian Express story alleging that there was unusual and un-notified movement on January 16 of two Army attack formations towards the national capital, which “spooked New Delhi”, was a complete fabrication. The barely hidden suggestion in the story was that the troop movement ominously took place the night before the Chief of the Army Staff General V.K. Singh moved the Supreme Court on the date of birth issue; it was a not-too-subtle way of the Army flexing its muscle against civilian authority.

The troop movement violated no protocol of standard operating procedure. Such movements need to be notified to the Defence Ministry only if they involve corps-level strength. The story appears to be wrong on other details too, and has been dismissed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Defence Minister A.K. Antony, and General V.K. Singh.

However, the real question is who fed or planted the story, and with what motive. One may never know for certain the answer to the first question, but the plausible motive seems to have been to discredit Gen. V.K. Singh. One of his detractors, former Northern Army Commander Lt Gen. H.S. Panag, said that the troop movement was an attempt by a “compromised [military] hierarchy” to “pre-empt” a likely decision by the Defence Ministry to sack the COAS. Lt Gen. Panag was relieved of his command after an anti-corruption inquiry in 2008, and has since retired. But he is a member of the Armed Forces Tribunal. Thus, it was totally out of order for him to make these remarks. A similar story was planted earlier about Gen. V.K. Singh having ordered the clandestine interception of telephone conversations involving top Defence Ministry officials. This pointed to grave indiscipline. But the charge was never substantiated.

...{/quote}


Link to Lt Gen Panag's troop movement statement to Manu Pubby

http://indianexpress.com/article/news-a ... gen-panag/

While you all may disagree, this single episode was, IMVHO, the single most damaging act to the very fibre of Indian Armed Forces.

Deejay, so am I. Actually I know a bit about HS Panag's command of Northern Command. He did give a more offensive intent to the command and that did lead to some success. We don't know who it was that colluded with IE in that hatchet job on Gen VK Singh. There were rumors of someone in the PMO too. I won't take what the press says as gospel. I completely disagree with Gen Panag on some of his comments and yes, he has been quite parochial of late. DSC has an important role to play and I would never call them rag tag. They did a great job here and I salute them. Garud's of course are specialized troops and one of their key roles (you would know more Deejay) is AF installation protection against exactly this kind of attack. However Gen Panag does make two very relevant points, both of which were also made by Maroof and Gen Hasnain. And I completely concur.

1. There needs to be a clear chain of command with one person in command, both in case of attacks on civilian targets and military targets. In the latter case it must be a clearly with the military for many reasons, the principal of which is that of morale and signalling to the enemy. For these purposes NSG SAGs are military. Having them around in this case was good as a huge hostage situation could have arisen. But command, control and coordination could have been better. There is an institutional problem vis a vis the babu control here.

2. Once it was clear (and that took some time), the CASO type operations should have been lead by the Army as it was a bread and butter infantry op. But remember, in the fog of war that clarity took some time so I don't want to comment on whether more troops etc could be used.

There is too much cacophony on the media on some of these issues. I think our troops on ground showed valour again and definitely foiled the enemy. But to me the crux is this - What is our response?

We are wasting time and energy on the wrong issue. I have said this before and will say it again. The problem lies in Pakiland. How are we going to respond from a military, offensive defense, covert op, Sindh/Baluch, assassinating ISI offrs perspective.

Lets stop blaming ourselves for a terrorist/regular forces attack on our soil and figure out how we will take the battle to them !!!

PMO --- TKA Nair

a gent who could cast a clear shadow in the darkest of mid nights.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by chetak »

Singha wrote:maybe they rigged up something like the old german panzerfaust and welded it below the gun .... beats having to carry a RPG launcher along. panzerfaust was small and light and used by hitler youth towards the end. ideal for blowing up parked aircraft quickly.

Image

Cant be welded, no??

something like this would have to be capable of being attached and removed quickly so that the weapon could also be used.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by deejay »

Kapoor Sir, absolutely agree. One important question that comes to my mind and has been asked elsewhere - What was the C-in-C WAC doing there?

But this is not the time for me to ask such questions. I am in touch with coursemates and their families there. It has been a tough time for all of them. Just too many explosions going around. I know a few things. But just because I know a little (which even I understand, so surely a General would have understood that it is not the full picture) should I start shooting my mouth off.

Couldn't this have waited? Let the IAF come out with their internal assessments. They will hold a COI at least - its procedure.

The whole base security SOP across board will need to change. If you ask me, IAF is living in another era. But this is an institutional failure which was years in the making. A long term redrawing will be needed.

The chain of command and who took Op responsibility, where, when should be an interesting discussion specially since 'killing the terrorists' was one aspect and securing air assets, radars and communication / signals equipment were different responsibility.

For good or worse, in the moment of crisis a set of decisions were taken. People died. Ideally no one should have. But I still feel, that during the Op, as a nation we need to back our guys and think before we attack negatively, our own people. If we politically colour our arguments we risk trivializing even the genuine points we make.

If you ask me, I thank God that those idiots Pakis went for the Technical area - it was easier to kill them there. Just imagine if they had hit the residential area - approx 1700 families living in that area. Also, now think whether NSG presence was justified or not?

Decision makers were taking all eventualities in consideration before they occurred. In hind sight it is good we are arguing over surplus of people acting and not their absence.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

These are UBGL Grenades...on his uniform...

Image
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Completely agree on all your points Karan. Lack of wisdom and too much ego.

Hows the morale? Especially of the kids and the families.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Whats the mood ? What do your course mates (AFA ? or NDA) say we should do ?
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by rajanb »

Karan M,
I have been around for quite some time and always appreciated your tech knowledge which has taught me a lot.

However:

a) All I am trying to say and ask, is it wrong to raise the bar, as far as we are concerned? Just a yes or No answer will suffice.
b) WE have been attacked many times before. So do we have a Standard Operating Procedure with an automatic chain of command for each valuable assets, including nuclear, Armed Forces Assets, Urban areas etc.
c) Wouldn't you improvise and use the best and closest assets at hand. Especially those who have years of experience in counter insurgency?

there are many questions you have side stepped in my posts.

And by the way, I use the USA when I deem fit? No. Never. Lovely people. Greedy polity.

Again, to me my country comes before any political party in power. Because the country has to survive. Not a political party(s) with so many scams to their name, including in defence procurement.

As for the press? Less said the better.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

Heres the DM and IA, IAF Chiefs meeting martyrs families. I appreciate their lack of ego and SDRE'ness. Same level as the families, squatting on the ground, not sitting as a VIP in some chair.

Image

Defence Min. Sh.@manoharparrikar and IA Chief Sh. Dalbir Suhag @ the house of martyr Lance Naik Kulwant Singh, DSC at Chak Sarif village,Gurdaspur
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Singha »

their wet dream would something like the beslan massacre. a impossible situation presented to the govt and MSM using that as a stick for next 50 years to beat namo regime up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_siege

it can happen anytime unless we are very careful
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Rajan B , I'll give you a good SOP

1. Establish where the attack came from H +24 (with the Pakis we usually know H + 1)
2. Assess enemy objective (pretty obvious....take J&K and keep attacking India to cause general mayhem)
3. Assess own damage
4. Designate enemy targets
5. Launch attack/covert op
6. Assess enemy damage
7. If enemy damage (material, personnel, morale) < 10 * own damage go to 4 else goto 8
8. Call for chai pe charcha
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 07 Jan 2016 22:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by deejay »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Whats the mood ? What do your course mates (AFA ? or NDA) say we should do ?
Folks were a bit shaken sir. Women, kids and occasionally some parents too. They lost people on base - never goes well.

Coursemates or otherwise, its like other times of Op. Initial reaction is "retaliate".
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

any options in their minds on how to retaliate ?
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Aditya G »

Tactical details trickling in:

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/pathankot- ... picks=true

Image
Pathankot: The calendar had just turned - it was the early hours of January 2. A helicopter with thermal imagers was getting ready to take-off and scan the Pathankot Air Base based on an alert that the high-value military asset was to be targeted by terrorists.

Within a few minutes of being air borne, the thermal imagers beamed down images of four suspects. They were first spotted in the dense jungle at the rear of the Mechanical Transport Area in the 2000-acre compound. Roughly 45 minutes later, the Mi-35 attack helicopter that was flying over the base with thermal sensors would beam back pictures to ground which showed the terrorist had moved just a few meters from their earlier location - to store huts of the Mechanical Transport base.

"They were moving slowly, to avoid any detection," a senior IAF official told NDTV.

At about 3 am, 12 Garud Commandos were deployed. Three teams of "buddy" pairs were deployed outside the Mechanical Transport Wing to prevent the suspects from moving. Another three pairs of commandos were asked to launch the attack on the Pakistanis.

Gursevak took cover behind a heavy earth-mover along with his buddy even as they made first contact. Gursevak took three bullets, but kept fighting.

Seeing Gursevak down, Sailesh and Katal - the second team - moved in quickly using Israel-made rifles and machine guns to return the terrorists' fire. Then, Sailesh was hit - more than half a dozen bullets in his lower abdomen. Bleeding profusely, he didn't abandon his post and, with buddy Katal, kept the operation going for nearly an hour, while they waited for back- up and replenishment.

The terrorists then managed to sneak out of the Mechanical Transport area, but were stopped from reaching the technical area - where they could have damaged the fighter jets and attack helicopters that are crucial for the Air Force.

The operation to eliminate them lasted nearly 80 hours and martyred seven military personnel and injured 20 - including Sailesh.

He was evacuated three hours after being pummelled with bullets to the hospital just outside the base. The 24 year-old from Ambala is now fighting for his life.
Last edited by Aditya G on 07 Jan 2016 22:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by rajanb »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:any options in their minds on how to retaliate ?
SOP will be now in place. And hopefully I am proved wrong.

Forget about it. And let the sacrifices made by brave soldiers and their families go in vain.

plenty of examples. On the net.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

rajanb wrote:However:

a) All I am trying to say and ask, is it wrong to raise the bar, as far as we are concerned? Just a yes or No answer will suffice.
Ask for something reasonable please. This question is more like have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no will suffice.. does it?

It would be a perfect example of ignoring the context, the speed at which decision making was made & what the issues were.

Raise the bar & curse the present Govt for something unreasonable WHEN their outcome has been better than the US/UK, Sri Lankans, Pakistanis themselves.

b) WE have been attacked many times before. So do we have a Standard Operating Procedure with an automatic chain of command for each valuable assets, including nuclear, Armed Forces Assets, Urban areas etc.
Which is a fundamental issue with IA, IAF, IN SOPs as well, and this cannot be pinned on the current GOI. And will be fixed to some degree. The RR is a perfect example.
c) Wouldn't you improvise and use the best and closest assets at hand. Especially those who have years of experience in counter insurgency?
Sir, did you read the news reports which don't match the assumptions you are making??

1000 troops are inducted from the IA AFTER joint chiefs decide + NSG. What more needs be done at immediate notice?
there are many questions you have side stepped in my posts.
I didn't see any points you have made, which are relevant to the discussion and not colored by political likes/dislikes or media speculation (ingress via drain etc) for which we still don't have info. What I see is speedy decisions made by a NSA with the right people including the Chiefs and a rapid response by all parties concerned. Was it 100% perfect? No. That's combat..
And by the way, I use the USA when I deem fit? No. Never. Lovely people. Greedy polity.
So because the US has a greedy polity and... hence one of the most combat effective armies in the world & their experience against the same opponents we faced is to be disregarded?
Again, to me my country comes before any political party in power. Because the country has to survive. Not a political party(s) with so many scams to their name, including in defence procurement.
If there is any example of how your political bias is coloring your claims and arguments, it is this. First you began with "ah the op was a failure". Second, "ok but lets not compare to anyone else". Then "56 inch this, 56 inch that". Now "this party has scams".

Sir, with all due respect, if your arguments were about "country having to survive" the stuff about 56 inch, and VKS Singh and political party in question would not come up.

All the prior examples you quoted. Did you bring up the prior admins cronyism, corruption, nepotism which was 1000x of the current admin? Was it even relevant?

You are making political arguments & waving away every thing that contradicts your assumptions.
Last edited by Karan M on 07 Jan 2016 23:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Sid »

Karan M wrote:SRoy
>>I think Karan just quoted the example of Camp Bastion to press a point.

Exactly. Camp Bastion was attacked by Pak trained specialist troops the same way we were. The base was defended by US, UK's RAF Regiment (on whom, its reported the Garuds are modeled) and Tonga troops. Things were so bad, that USMC regular pilots and maintainers (in line with USMCs everyone's a grunt) picked up guns and fought. Even so, 8 Harriers lost & bunch of soldiers killed.

This is the quantum of threat, India faced and overcame. This time. The Pakis will keep attacking. And as Indian citizens we need to figure out how to deter Pakistan. . Instead we have the we hate Mudi, them chauvinist indoos need to go types using this incident to make hay.
Karan, another factor was low manpower. They reduced the guard strength from ~300 to 100 and lot of posts were not manned. Not sure we are any better.

But agree the people on station should be trained in fire-arms handling.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Prasad »

Getting hit in the lower abdomen seems strange. Even that should've been covered by BPJ no?
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Screambowl »

Anujan wrote: 1. Why did Pakis do this so soon after Modiji's visit which indicated talks were about to be started
The Pakis had already planned it soon after NSA meet in Bangkok. Because PM Modi was briefed about this attack before he landed in Lahore.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

Sid wrote:
Karan M wrote:SRoy
>>I think Karan just quoted the example of Camp Bastion to press a point.

Exactly. Camp Bastion was attacked by Pak trained specialist troops the same way we were. The base was defended by US, UK's RAF Regiment (on whom, its reported the Garuds are modeled) and Tonga troops. Things were so bad, that USMC regular pilots and maintainers (in line with USMCs everyone's a grunt) picked up guns and fought. Even so, 8 Harriers lost & bunch of soldiers killed.

This is the quantum of threat, India faced and overcame. This time. The Pakis will keep attacking. And as Indian citizens we need to figure out how to deter Pakistan. . Instead we have the we hate Mudi, them chauvinist indoos need to go types using this incident to make hay.
Karan, another factor was low manpower. They reduced the guard strength from ~300 to 100 and lot of posts were not manned. Not sure we are any better.

But agree the people on station should be trained in fire-arms handling.
We are not, and hence that is why the Camp Bastion attack is worth a careful consider. In our case, for all the talk on BRF, Garuds had to be brought in from other AFB. This tells me that the # of Garuds is still not sufficient for proper base security across all IAF high profile targets.

IAF now has to sit down with IA and earmark a SOP for all its prominent installations.

If anyone is reading this forum from GOI - they need to ask the USMC/UK about the parameters of the Bastion attack and what SOPs failed and what worked.

The Bastion attack was clearly conducted by people trained by SSG/Pak mil to a similar standard. The US/UK may not know this, or cant admit it due to PC issues, all we need to know is how was the attack run.

In our case, the only reason we managed to skate by is speed of response - of NSA and services. All the rest is usual fog of war & "no plan survives first contact with enemy".

Unfortunately fighting a defensive war means we will always be on backfoot.

If Pakistanis had killed SP and his driver and there was no intel alert to put Pathankot on alert, what then?

They are not stupid and we have put out far too many details because idiot media was doing FUD.

Pakistanis are desparate for high profile successes now. The hard hitback on LOC has rattled them. They want to push current GOI on backfoot in return - we can hurt you too. To do this, they are willing to even train JEM/LET cadre in AFB attack running the risk of some of these cadre defecting to anti Pak mil units

More attacks are a given.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by V_Raman »

Maybe Modi used the info to stop all the chatter about no talks with the flash visit optics. We tried onlee... Now opposition cannot go on forever about no talks with Pak.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by rajanb »

KaranM
I would be as critical and bitter about 26/11. Which I still am.

I have no political leanings. Except what is right for India. Your constant reference to them, while I am quoting a 56 inch statement which was broadcast, and you cannot deny that happened.

Psychologically, the comparison of beating one's wife? Tells me a lot about you. I would never ever even think of such a topic. It needs very little intellect to choose a better example.

No more discussions with you.

I only hope your Bhakthi helps India. I still compliment you on your technical posts.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by shaun »

like i said before , we still don't know, to what degree those 20 plus are injured . Two cases , one the above and the other NSG commando who was with the LT Col , must be critical . Pray that they survive , recover and come back in force.

what is perplexing is , those pigs were detected and constantly monitored through aerial assets but still GARUDS were pinned down by them.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by kvraghav »

Rajan..what would you have done if PM of india? Just curious
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by kvraghav »

For people talking about 56 inches...remember the guy who beheaded our men in the border is dead. Overt or covert we will never know but id such a guy and killing signifies planned hit.
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Sid »

Aditya G wrote:Tactical details trickling in:

http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/pathankot- ... picks=true
Pathankot: The calendar had just turned - it was the early hours of January 2. A helicopter with thermal imagers was getting ready to take-off and scan the Pathankot Air Base based on an alert that the high-value military asset was to be targeted by terrorists.

Within a few minutes of being air borne, the thermal imagers beamed down images of four suspects. They were first spotted in the dense jungle at the rear of the Mechanical Transport Area in the 2000-acre compound. Roughly 45 minutes later, the Mi-35 attack helicopter that was flying over the base with thermal sensors would beam back pictures to ground which showed the terrorist had moved just a few meters from their earlier location - to store huts of the Mechanical Transport base.

"They were moving slowly, to avoid any detection," a senior IAF official told NDTV.

At about 3 am, 12 Garud Commandos were deployed. Three teams of "buddy" pairs were deployed outside the Mechanical Transport Wing to prevent the suspects from moving. Another three pairs of commandos were asked to launch the attack on the Pakistanis.

........................

This part is confusing, if they already had location on rodents in first sortie why wait for 45 min or they flew in Garuds in that time? Also why attack helo could not provide air cover or even directly engage rodents?
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Re: Pathankot AFB terrorist Attack After Action Analyisis-I

Post by Karan M »

rajanb wrote:KaranM
I would be as critical and bitter about 26/11. Which I still am.
And there are key differences. The main thing being this time around the admin acted at speed and not at leisure. That you refuse to see it & insist otherwise despite tons of evidence to the contrary, speaks volumes.
I have no political leanings. Except what is right for India. Your constant reference to them, while I am quoting a 56 inch statement which was broadcast, and you cannot deny that happened.
Sir your loathing of the present admin is no secret. You are welcome to it and everyone has their own choices, but your lack of objectivity is glaring, that's the only part that I am countering because thanks to it, you are running down what was otherwise, a rare event in Indian military ops, decisive politico-military synergy.

You are ignoring each & every bit of evidence that states the current admin acted as it should have, to the best of its knowledge & with speed. Here is what is ironic. You quote "56 inch again and again" but that's fine. My pointing out that you are fixated on a political slant using this rhetoric...no, that's a constant reference.
Psychologically, the comparison of beating one's wife? Tells me a lot about you. I would never ever even think of such a topic. It needs very little intellect to choose a better example.
Oh come on.. more rhetoric.

"Tells me a lot about you indeed". What does it tell you? That I know the english language and something known as a metaphor and chose the most direct example of a loaded question which even Wiki cites as the first and only example?

Have you stopped beating one's wife is a common phrase which is used to depict a question which is preset up to fail. It is equal to "heads I win, tails you lose".

That's the kind of question you asked.

You set up a question - "is it wrong to ask for higher standards" deliberately ignoring whatever examples existed of Indian forces getting off better (this time around) than all their worldwide peers (and the SOBs who actually had this attack done) & saying "yes, no" agree with my set up question.

When that was pointed out. We should have even higher standards.

I pointed out how fixed that question was.

You come back with this "I would never even think of such a topic" and take all sorts of umbrage.

Please tell us what you psychologically think of Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
A common way out of this argument is not to answer the question (e.g. with a simple 'yes' or 'no'), but to challenge the assumption behind the question. To use an earlier example, a good response to the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" would be "I have never beaten my wife".[5] This removes the ambiguity of the expected response, therefore nullifying the tactic. However, the askers of said questions have learned to get around this tactic by accusing the one who answers of dodging the question.
And guess what you did?
you have not answered the points I have raised
You are asking loaded questions, ignoring the evidence that contradicts your statements (ah we have higher standards than xyz, is that wrong), bringing up all sorts of rhetoric and then taking umbrage when I counter your rhetoric stating it is tiresome.
No more discussions with you.

I only hope your Bhakthi helps India.
Ah. So now we see the other usual jibe that we have folks of the INC/AAP dispensation make - "you bhakts" whenever anyone contradicts their points... and of course, its plausibly deniable as the term is bhakthi or devotion which can be spun any which way.

Mucho ironic given we are talking of how plausibly deniable individuals attacked an Indian installation.
I still compliment you on your technical posts.
Thanks much!
Last edited by Karan M on 07 Jan 2016 23:37, edited 4 times in total.
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