IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2016 10:05

For comparison: VAYU in its latest latest issue,in a piece about the IN's "superfighter",the MIG-29K,describes the differences between it and the original base M29 version.Apart from triplex FBW,wide HUDs, IRST,avionics,radar,sensors,RAM, etc.,double the fuel capacity,etc. It also carries "combat capable" external fuel tanks and has buddy refueling capability too for extending the range of aircraft. I think that the max range has now been extended to around 900km.5500kg is the max payload. With the poss of also acquiring a new Russian BVRAAM whose range is supposed to be 200km,the aircraft should suffice for the IN's needs for a decade+. Beyond 2025, a larger stealth aircraft may be inevitable.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Jan 2016 10:07

^^ Philip , Can you scan the Vayu article and put it up ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2016 10:41

I see a LRSB kind of problem as inevitable. the chinese will set up a line of superbases from urumqi through the desert highway of gansu to yunnan (for support assets like tankers, awacs, EW, H6 alcm shooters and moving back fighters as needed) and then a string of smaller bases in tibet itself for fighters. fighting just the fighters is akin to fighting TSP in pathankot, the real assets are the supporting heavies and without them the fighters cannot do much beyond a limited radius and lose a lot of C3I.

I had floated the wild idea of converting the shourya to a submunition carrier (4-6 astra AAM) with 1500km range and cued by OTH radar to heavies in their slow high level predictable orbits deep north of himalayas. the AAMs to be released for the terminal phase rather than having the nearly burned out bulky shourya airframe take it up.

LRSB is obviously a much more flexible and powerful solution, one that is well beyond indias tech level right now.

we must do what we can in the meantime to deny safe operating areas to the enemy . else imagine a TSP safe rear area in tibet and yunnan and war always being fought over north indian skies. tibet and yunnan are the strategic depth of cheen before we even _scratch_ their heartland. all must be done to reduce this cushion of empty protected airspace they have the luxury of.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Jan 2016 17:34

Aus,will try tom.Upto eyeballs with other work.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Jan 2016 18:57

I see a LRSB kind of problem as inevitable.

That's not a problem that you go out and solve through the MMRCA, or a strike fighter for that matter. Its best to tackle that through a mix of larger more strategic assets, and ultimately UCAV's. One problem that even the heavies like the Su-34, and F-15E,SA,K have is that they need to attack IADS protected targets by going low, and possible fast. All this eats into the available mission radius of these aircrafts and also has payload implications. As air-defenses get more and more challenging, the standard Hi-Low-Hi profile will definitely start to have a much greater LOW component to it thereby adversely affecting your overall ability to deliver payload at long range. Electronic Warfare can and will help but it is also dependent upon RCS, and if your fleet is full of really high RCS targets, that has significant EW implications and you will essentially be forced to conduct jamming at a level that even the most highly kitted forces are incapable of conducting. Another option is to have longer ranged PGM salvos and aircraft that can do this. This then gives rise to issues of economics and sustaining an air-campaign. The farther away you go from 30-50 km, the more PGM's cost..and 100+ KM PGM"s have a significantly higher cost to them than simple glide bombs. Additionally, the adversary can counter that through investing in decoys and mobile targets, that then would make deploying large scale stand-off PGM"s unsustainable. Long range stand off also does not provide you the ability to find and fix targets that is essential to any successful air-ground operations and your space based assets can at best be significantly stressed, and at worst be knocked out of the sky. As I said, that is a strike mission that is best done by larger bomber, stealth fighters, or UCAV's and left out of the MMRCA domain. But there are a lot many other missions done by the IAF's Mig-29's and M2K's that the Rafale can easily take over, and actually do a better job at. Its a highly capable 4.5 generation fighter, among the best in its class by far.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jan 2016 22:53

Cross posting from Keypubs

Paris confirms the rumor (Les Echos from Tuesday)

Signature around the 28th of January
Contract around 5B€ which will certainly includes weapons, spares etc... What converges with the 80+M$ per bird as rumored and discussed earlier.

Trappier (Dassault's CEO) already claims for a second order!

Il y en aura forcément une seconde, mais elle n’est pas encore définie »,
There will be a second one, but it's not defined already

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Jan 2016 03:27

^^^

It seems the GoI is following a regular practice where it breaks up the deal into parts to make look more "affordable". First signing is more or less just for the planes along with initial training and OEM support. Then that would be followed by a separate maintenance contract and associated offset/ToT/infrastructure. Finally, a separate deal for weapons package. Each would be multi-billion dollar deal in itself.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jan 2016 08:53

Kartik wrote:Cross posting from Keypubs

Paris confirms the rumor (Les Echos from Tuesday)

Signature around the 28th of January
Contract around 5B€ which will certainly includes weapons, spares etc... What converges with the 80+M$ per bird as rumored and discussed earlier.

Trappier (Dassault's CEO) already claims for a second order!

Il y en aura forcément une seconde, mais elle n’est pas encore définie »,
There will be a second one, but it's not defined already

Nothing new there.

IAF consulted on direct buy of Rafales: Parrikar

Q. So India will buy more Rafales after re-assessing requirements? Where does the LCA fit in the picture?

A. I feel that some more Rafale jets may be required but need to figure out how we can acquire them. But more importantly, we need large number of aircraft to replace MiG variants over the next 8-10 years, which is their extended life. So either we go in for large-scale manufacturing of the LCA or combine some other requirements and go for a medium-weight fighter under the Make in India plan.

Some of it can be replaced by even proper stockpiling of missiles. Nowadays, one can attack some targets by proper use of missiles.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Jan 2016 09:49

Kartik wrote:Cross posting from Keypubs

Paris confirms the rumor (Les Echos from Tuesday)

Signature around the 28th of January
Contract around 5B€ which will certainly includes weapons, spares etc... What converges with the 80+M$ per bird as rumored and discussed earlier.

Trappier (Dassault's CEO) already claims for a second order!

Il y en aura forcément une seconde, mais elle n’est pas encore définie »,
There will be a second one, but it's not defined already

[/quote]

As I said before intent is for more !

03 Nov 2015

Karan M wrote:plan is for 72, wait and watch

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... e#p1932348

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2016 09:53

Karan M wrote:plan is for 72, wait and watch

This should be in the Paki terrorism thread

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 09 Jan 2016 13:48

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:plan is for 72, wait and watch
This should be in the Paki terrorism thread

I hope IAF/MoD go in for a 2nd order of Rafale.
The other option of Griprn NG under make in India while being a good proposal in theorey has an embedded risk of getting LCA mk2 shelved.

Gripen in Indian scenario is totally non parvadable.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Jan 2016 14:01

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:plan is for 72, wait and watch
This should be in the Paki terrorism thread

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Jan 2016 15:08

nirav wrote:...

I hope IAF/MoD go in for a 2nd order of Rafale.
The other option of Griprn NG under make in India while being a good proposal in theorey has an embedded risk of getting LCA mk2 shelved.

Gripen in Indian scenario is totally non parvadable.

F 18. Assembly line and all.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Jan 2016 15:15

The other option of Griprn NG under make in India while being a good proposal in theorey has an embedded risk of getting LCA mk2 shelved.

For what it is worth, Swedes have offered to help on the LCA. They would prefer to make money both ways. And they seem to have calculated that both are possible.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Jan 2016 22:58

India, France to finalize Rafale deal ahead of Hollande visit

WASHINGTON, Jan. 8 (UPI) -- Indian and French government officials have reportedly finalized negotiations for the estimated $9 billion sale of 36 French Rafale fighter jets to India.

The agreement is likely to be signed before the arrival of French president François Hollande on January 25. During the visit, Hollande is scheduled to attend India's showcase Republic Day military Parade the following day, according to IHS Janes.

"A high-level French government team is in town to finalise the agreement and also discuss future scope of military cooperation," defense sources told Hindustan Times.

The Indian Air Force has been eyeing the twin-engine aircraft for over 10 years. Lengthy negotiations followed, partly over reinvestment of some proceeds to India and technology transfer agreements between Dassault and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, which was to manufacture the aircraft in India after an initial delivery from Dassault. An agreement was scheduled to be signed in late 2015, though issues including weapon technology and India's plans to set up two bases for the aircraft further delayed the signing.

The French Rafale is manufactured by Paris-based defense contractor Dassault Aviation. The jet was designed to be a multirole fighter, fit for air defense, air sovereignty missions, reconnaissance, ground force support, and deep strike missions.

The aircraft is armed with a GIAT 30/M791 autocannon in addition to air-to-air, air-to-ground, and nuclear deterrence missiles.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 10 Jan 2016 05:47

^^^^
Thats $250 million a pop with no TOT - madness.

member_27806 · Post by **member_27806** » 10 Jan 2016 23:42

While Israel purchased 33 F-35A fighters jets at an average cost of 110 million dollars per aircraft. And they will start getting them from this year end.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Jan 2016 23:57

They became an FMS customer in 2010 and will be getting first deliveries later this year. They bought into a developmental program and will be making wings for their own aircraft, and those of some other countries as part of the deal they struck with the program.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 10 Jan 2016 23:59

anahata wrote:
neeraj wrote:Thats $250 million a pop with no TOT - madness.
While Israel purchased 33 F-35A fighters jets at an average cost of 110 million dollars per aircraft. And they will start getting them from this year end.

Surely there has to be more than what meets the eye when we're signing up for a "$250 mil Rafale" vs a "$110 mil F35" ¿¿
I mean we all trust the sarkari bufoons to be just that but, we expect them to rob public money behind the curtains not blow it like this¿
Or am I misunderstanding something?

Even if both the platforms were on par in terms of price, wouldn't it be better to buy the 35 then dance with the future Mrs. Kapoor?

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 11 Jan 2016 01:13

Two figures were quoted 5 billion and 9 billion.
Think 9 billion includes mijjiles bambs base facilities and stuff ..

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Jan 2016 02:47

$5 Billion without weapons, or $9 Billion with, is immaterial in the larger discussion. The cost difference between the F-35 and Rafale is fairly small for say 2018 deliveries, and not significant enough to make the raffy significantly more affordable (unlike say the difference between the F-35 and F-16, or F-35 and Gripen C). Looking at historical Foreign Military Sale deals (which did not have domestic production), Korea, paid $10.8 Billion for 60 F-35A's, and the package included training, spares, spare engines and all other stuff required to setup an operational capability (high fidelity simulators etc). 2016-2017 FMS orders would most likely include non trivial discounts over and above what SOKO paid since delivery slots are now only available for higher production batches (compared to what IDF, and ROKAF bought into in terms of delivery schedule).

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/ko ... r-aircraft

However, the problem isn't with the cost but with the politics of the entire deal which is complicated and I doubt the two nations are close enough geopolitically to negotiate the sort of contract for the aircraft (and solving issues that are likely to crop up in the process) in a relatively short period of time. From the IAF's perspective, the Rafale is an aircraft they evaluated, and what they like and what they can get with a fairly high degree of confidence over a relatively short period of time. For all practical purposes, the F-35 was not an option for the IAF to consider seriously, or the GOI to actually try to obtain. This could change in the future, but based on both original MMRCA timelines, and what appears to be current G2G delivery timelines, the rafale was an excellent choice except for the fact that it will end up costing nearly as much as a 5th generation fighter.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 11 Jan 2016 05:20

The problem with Rafale is the cost. We all know that from the start. Yet IAF wants it only. "There is no plan B". We are going to end up paying huge amounts now. On the other side, F35 is untested and may not even deliver as advertised. Khan dramas will always be there if we take f35.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jan 2016 06:09

It will deliver, but it surely has few problems.. they will overcome and look at certain missions with it. F35 does play its roles well.. the risk of flying light-weight afsars ejecting out issues must be resolved [which is not a big problem for LM].

There is always Amir Khan problems and there are always Russian problems in terms of chewing and spares. It is a trade off finally. nothing comes like your own a/c...#MakeInIndia no matter where it is designed, with no operational strings attached.

between Rafale and JSF, I would choose the later, on price/performance and it is a winner if #MakeInIndia is energized. The Amirs might open up! you are soon to experience some new waves. keep it watching., all depends on how the first squadron LCA Tejas is felt by IAF... things will be flowing inwards from then.

CMMI documents, plus technology IPR sharing is what is all the concern is, and not production engineering. There are give and takes. Currently, both these countries are worried about opening their backs. so, Russkies will find that as loophole and keep the tabs open.

we will see.. the game only begins when we announce we are equally capable and they get to see it! so, show our capability and they will come flocking with production engineering setup, and ToT immediately.. just to learn what we did. they are good at these. if we are game, and throw dharmic aspects outside the window.. we can emerge out of this rut brilliantly. we can begin our games very soon.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Jan 2016 06:28

SaiK wrote:It will deliver, but it surely has few problems.. they will overcome and look at certain missions with it. F35 does play its roles well.. the risk of flying light-weight afsars ejecting out issues must be resolved [which is not a big problem for LM].

There is always Amir Khan problems and there are always Russian problems in terms of chewing and spares. It is a trade off finally. nothing comes like your own a/c...#MakeInIndia no matter where it is designed, with no operational strings attached.

between Rafale and JSF, I would choose the later, on price/performance and it is a winner if #MakeInIndia is energized. The Amirs might open up! you are soon to experience some new waves. keep it watching., all depends on how the first squadron LCA Tejas is felt by IAF... things will be flowing inwards from then.

CMMI documents, plus technology IPR sharing is what is all the concern is, and not production engineering. There are give and takes. Currently, both these countries are worried about opening their backs. so, Russkies will find that as loophole and keep the tabs open.

we will see.. the game only begins when we announce we are equally capable and they get to see it! so, show our capability and they will come flocking with production engineering setup, and ToT immediately.. just to learn what we did. they are good at these. if we are game, and throw dharmic aspects outside the window.. we can emerge out of this rut brilliantly. we can begin our games very soon.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5092&p=1964045#p1964045

member_28880 · Post by **member_28880** » 11 Jan 2016 07:57

All Clear: India To Sign Deal For 36 Rafales This Month

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/01/ ... or-36.html

Courtesy: Livefist

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Jan 2016 17:10

Rafale jet fighter final contract signing likely to be delayed further

Intent agreement to be inked during French President’s visit

NEW DELHI, JANUARY 10:

Contrary to widespread belief, signing of the final contract to purchase 36 Rafale warplanes manufactured by French aviation major Dassault Aviation is likely to face further delay, even as both governments — India and France — are all set to sign an agreement stating India’s intention to buy the fighter jets during the visit of French President later this month.

The agreement will only lay down the objectives of both governments to continue negotiating the deal as a “symbolic gesture” to the visiting French President. The agreement, shaped as an Memorandum of Understanding between both countries, will only state that India will buy these jets from France while actual negotiations on pricing, offset obligations and changes in design will continue, sources told BusinessLine.

Key factors

Negotiations, however, are far from being over with discussions stuck between both sides mainly on two issues. According to sources, pricing these 36 jets has become the most important sticking point. The French, it is learnt, is not ready to bring down the cost, which is pegged at €4-5 billion. India, on the other hand, has asked for further concessions.

Sources said the Ministry of Defence is cash-strapped and with sudden surge in expenses due to the Seventh Pay Commission, One Rank One Pension (OROP) scheme and payment of past Defence contracts have tied the hands of the Centre to ink such expensive deals such as the Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft deal.

The French, it is learnt, have already secured billion-dollar contracts to sell Rafale jets to other countries such as Qatar and Malaysia, giving it an upper-hand in the ongoing negotiations with India.

Secondly, the Centre has fixed the offset requirements for this deal at 50 per cent from the usual norm of 30 per cent. This has also acted as another hurdle in the talks.

A team of French officials visited India last week for the final round of talks concerning pricing of the contract, offset requirements and how to bring the deal under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s flagship ‘Make in India’ campaign, sources said.

Apparently, French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian is embarking on a visit to India a week before their President François Hollande sets foot here as the Republic Day chief guest.

Meanwhile, the Ministry of Defence is believed to be in “desperate need” for these fighter jets for the India Air Force. Additionally, the Air Force has also demanded certain changes in the design of the 36 jets according to their needs.

“Pricing is definitely huge hurdle in this. We cannot pay more and they cannot give more concessions. The French just had a few sales of Rafale jets with other countries, so they are not ready for anymore bargain. Besides, with the seventh pay commission and past Defence purchases, the government is facing a severely right budget. So, it cannot afford to pay more for these jets. The Defence budget is extremely tight and the room to manoeuvre is too less,” said Manoj Joshi, distinguished fellow, Observer Research Foundation.

Although the French President is making his second visit to India, this will be his first as Republic Day chief guest. Hence, as “symbolic gesture” it has been decided that the agreement will be signed in the presence of both leaders.

The original plan, mooted under the previous UPA government to buy 126 Rafale fighter jets, got stuck due to several hurdles in the tendering process, including the plan to jointly produce these jets remained in a hiatus. It had been decided then while 18 jets will be bought off-the-shelf, remaining 108 will be manufactured in India.

Meanwhile, when Modi visited France in April last year he announced the plan to buy only 36 Rafale jets in ready-to-fly mode for the Indian Air Force, dealing a body blow to his ‘Make in India’ programme.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jan 2016 18:29

^^^

At this rate, Rafales will be out of production by the time India finally seals a deal!

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 11 Jan 2016 19:33

both India and rafale are hungry.
Both are giving bubble gum to each other.
.
it wont remove hunger,,,, but, but, but, to a third party, it looks as if lot of food has been given since the chewing never ends...

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Jan 2016 19:56

#Leverage

Rafale deliveries fell to single figures in 2015

Dassault delivered eight Rafales in 2015, the French manufacturer has announced, with its annual output having for the first time included aircraft delivered to an export customer.

Outlining its business activities for last year, Dassault on 5 January said: “Eight Rafale (five to France and three to Egypt) were delivered in 2015, in accordance with our forecasts.” The latter received its first three Rafales – all twin-seat examples – last July.The production total represented a decrease of three units from the combined 11 aircraft handed over to the French air force and navy during 2014. Additional work on the programme conducted last year included continuing activities linked to the nation’s F3-standard fleet retrofit, the manufacturer states.

Dassault says that as of 31 December 2015, its production backlog for the Rafale stood at 83 aircraft: 38 for France and 45 for international customers. The latter includes another 21 examples for the Egyptian air force and 24 for Qatar. Both nations signed up to acquire the type during 2015.

“The success of the Rafale on the export market and its deployment in numerous theatres of operations by the French air force and French navy confirmed Rafale’s intrinsic qualities,” the company says.

Dassault would need at least 2-3 jets a month to produce the aircraft at its most optimal cost and if the IAF order allows it to do that then its price competitiveness also improves for other competitions in Europe and outside.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jan 2016 21:19

Exactly. I don't trust any Indina media anymore.

BRF used to say DDM= DesiDork Media. Here they are guilty of being dorks only.
Unfortunately that is wrong diagnosis.
DDM= Desh Drhohi Media.

Traitors to the land they live in.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jan 2016 21:30

Desh Dhrohi Media is cent per cent correct, given the actions of many of these so called journalists.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 11 Jan 2016 23:22

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 538626.cms

Closing in on French fighter plane deal: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar

"It's closer to completion," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told reporters. He didn't give any details

Under the new deal that India and France are trying to seal, the planes will be brought off the shelf. "The procedure is going on," Parrikar said, declining to elaborate.

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 11 Jan 2016 23:40

This is how like a recruiter told a candidate post an interview "They really like you".....but never gave the offer...

It amuses me that this government is moving so sluggishly in this regard. I can put a bet that this deal will never go through...It will be great if I am proven wrong.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Jan 2016 23:43

dhiraj wrote:"The procedure is going on," Parrikar said, declining to elaborate.

Regardless of how things turn out, this is the sort of poker face that needs to be seen during any negotiation with any foreign vendor. Rather than 'there is no Plan B'.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2016 06:23

IndiaFrance Rafale saga is looking more and more to me like It's a quarter after one and I'm all alone and I need you now..

Only the weeeyoww weeeyoww violin is missing

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Jan 2016 20:20

Gasping to attain simultaneous orgasm!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jan 2016 21:02

Shiv and Philip other things are linked.
France is reluctant. Will eventually come around.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Jan 2016 04:08

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jan 2016 04:41

shiv wrote:IndiaFrance Rafale saga is looking more and more to me like It's a quarter after one and I'm all alone and I need you now..

Only the weeeyoww weeeyoww violin is missing

Male version of that line in that song goes like "It's a quarter after one and I'm a little drunk and I need you now ..."

member_29258 · Post by **member_29258** » 13 Jan 2016 10:17

ET report cites 60k cr for 36 rafales , including support and offsets plus ....
VITAL TECHNOLOGY For LCA

guru comments ?