LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jan 2016 21:28

Shreeman wrote: bahrain is NO Farnborough or Paris.

Whos ego got massaged here? If you wanted to send it abroad, surely there were better debut locations. Opening your picture in jhumri tallaya is no red carpet event.

Well depends on what you are reading
1. Gulf people account for more remittances into India than any other nation
2. For my videos, highest viewership is from India, and second highest is from Gulf countries when it comes to LCA and other Indian related videos. When I include all videos Gulf is 3 after US in second position

Clearly there is deep interest in India from the Gulf region - particularly Indians

By coincidence I read 15 minutes ago on Twitter a lament in an aviation portal that Paris and Farnborough are not what they used to be because of costs involved in going there. Airshows in other places are gaining mileage.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 14 Jan 2016 21:29

Go Navy!
It will be interesting if the Fizzlya Pilots talk to the Tejas TPs...
Fizzlya 1: We can land on the Islamabad-Rawalpindi Motorway! you know...for when you've taken out all our FOBs.
Tejas TP 1: That's cute!

Fizzlya 2: Your helmet has a screen?!
We got a Xiomi Cell phone with 2G Connectivity.
Our Engineers and Scientists at NASCOM,SUPARCo and PAC have successfully taped it to the insides of our Helmets.

After the flight demo (For Tejas) and Selfie time (For the JF17)...

Tejas TP 1: So.... How is Karachi now?
Fizzlya 1: Great! Our Stock market outperformed yours!
Tejas TP 1: Congratulations.
Fizzlya 1:Hmm... Let me tell you a funny story..
One night I rode out of the AFB to buy Razor blades and while I was coming back, was stopped by armed men who shouted "Haraam!" and stole my 2015 Honda CG125 and my Gilette!
I then had to call my second cousin who lived nearby to get his RPG. I used that to "confiscate"

a 2016 Honda CG125. This model has the updated stickers.
Fizzlya 2: Great story birather.
Hey Tejas guy...How is Goa?
Tejas TP 2: Sunny. And the Alcohol is cheap over there.
Fizzlya 2: Oh really?!
I sipped beer once, and ended up sleeping with seven of my cousins!
Three of whom were men!
And you know the funny thing about that incident?....The label said "Non Alcoholic Beverage"!

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 14 Jan 2016 21:31

Bangalore - Jamnagar - Muscat - Sakhir AFB, Bahrain: ~3366 km

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Jan 2016 21:37

PratikDas wrote:Bangalore - Jamnagar - Muscat - Sakhir AFB, Bahrain: ~3366 km

Nice one!

That map should be shown to anyone who has range anxiety over LCA's reach

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jan 2016 22:02

Shreeman wrote:shiv,

May be so. But isnt the AF day only weeks away now? Ought not the focus be there? The sitara is flying, probably a closer match to the thundaar anyway. Send that. It is a show plane via the original surya kiran plan. It did AI displays countless times. Why the LCA? That production line will not fulfill indian orders in the next decade, there is no scope for LCA exports. bahrain is NO Farnborough or Paris.

Whos ego got massaged here? If you wanted to send it abroad, surely there were better debut locations. Opening your picture in jhumri tallaya is no red carpet event.

Quit cribbing. It was a push from the political side and this is a huge morale booster and an event that brings the LCA firmly into the picture as a marketable product. an FOC test point being pushed by a couple of weeks does not make that big a difference in the big picture, whereas making analysts and air forces the world over take notice that the IAF is now out there speaking about the LCA makes a very big PR difference. and PR has been one of the weakest points of the LCA program.

added later: seeing Mao Sir's pics reminded me of my most memorable conversation with him at Aero India 2013. Even back then he said that he and Suneet Krishna had tremendous confidence in the Tejas. Can't wait to see a good quality video of the Tejas display at BIAS! Just hope we aren't disappointed by lack of such videos.

nits · Post by **nits** » 14 Jan 2016 22:24

Shreeman wrote:shiv,

May be so. But isnt the AF day only weeks away now? Ought not the focus be there? The sitara is flying, probably a closer match to the thundaar anyway. Send that. It is a show plane via the original surya kiran plan. It did AI displays countless times. Why the LCA? That production line will not fulfill indian orders in the next decade, there is no scope for LCA exports. bahrain is NO Farnborough or Paris.

Whos ego got massaged here? If you wanted to send it abroad, surely there were better debut locations. Opening your picture in jhumri tallaya is no red carpet event.

Let me put it this way... does some one put pics of his new bike on FB to sell it... He put to build a image or sell himself that i can afford it.... you have to build a brand which is India and this is one small but significant step towards it. Enjoy the baby steps.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 14 Jan 2016 22:29

Are those mijjiles on the LCA @ the airport pic.. ?!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Jan 2016 22:32

brar_w wrote:There is also immense domestic importance to an Indian designed, Indian-built fighter performing maneuvers at a foreign air-show.

Yup. A lot of the Indian press and media are obsessed with "foreign success" and a lot of the foreign press will learn to go beyond the horseshit peddled by the Aroors and Pandits and learn to appreciate the aircraft and what Indian aerospace has achieved.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Jan 2016 22:39

The way I see this is as the IAF's/MOD's effort to build high brand-awareness for the LCA. The ultimate security for the program (that is agnostic of the government at the center) is if the public at large considers the LCA as something to be proud off, and is aware of not only its existence but also its capabilities. Having clips of it performing displays in a foreign country aired on a loop in the 24x7 media cycle will help immensely here. Should insulate the program somewhat from future threats to it from political and/or bureaucratic circles. One needs to YouTube how the Korean media covers the KAI T-50 for example.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jan 2016 22:45

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 14 Jan 2016 22:49

If you go to the airshow site (This link http://www.bahraininternationalairshow. ... craft/5_7/) --- there is no mentioning of JF-17 even participating---

India in addition to Tejas will also have Sarang display team, Desi Awacs and C-17 -- which probably carried the Dhruvs

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 14 Jan 2016 22:54

Interestingly Sudan also has a fairly decent aircraft manufacturer-- it is called Safat... and they have basic jet trainer.. !!
check this out..
http://safatavia.com/our-products/safat-03/

So speaking of Sudan you always think of Desert, Camels .....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Jan 2016 23:00

Prithwiraj wrote:If you go to the airshow site (This link http://www.bahraininternationalairshow. ... craft/5_7/) --- there is no mentioning of JF-17 even participating---

India in addition to Tejas will also have Sarang display team, Desi Awacs and C-17 -- which probably carried the Dhruvs

Check the link to the static displays. JF-17 is right next to the LCA on pad 15

Static aircraft display

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Jan 2016 23:09

The dissenting opinion has been expressed, so no more of this from me after this post.

There was no attempt to downplay shivs videos, just highlighting that the supposed effective PR comes from a hakim in Bangalore, kerala. This seems to have escaped the readers in their giddyness over parking next to the thundaar.

Fire a BVR from jamnagar or fly to bahrain. That is the reported set of choices.

All this itching to match the koreans or sudanese doesnt mean zilch on the ground. And no, displaying in bahrain does not insulate the project from paid criticism. It is a huge huge very long stretch to say since their are large remittances from the gulf, the air show receives influential indian eye balls there.

There isnt even a guarantee of decent media coverage by the official channels. The three pictures posted are clearly amateur work.

You can gloat over going across the pond, and sending signals over range anxiety and so on, when push comes to shove its the lack of BVR qualification that will be used to beat the project over its head.

The rest is making lemonade, when given rotten eggs instead of lemons. Sure you can pretend to enjoy it, but all it is, is loss of focus at the finishing line.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 14 Jan 2016 23:20

This seems more like a clear signal from the govt. to show to IAF that MoD is fully committed to Tejas future ---to bring the whole program to public spotlight and make IAF go with desi maal .. instead of uber expensive foreign maal ..

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 14 Jan 2016 23:24

Last time we displayed Desi AEWC. LCA was just in mock ups.
This time LCA not only going to be there but also showcase its flying abilities.. When talking about exports, it doesnt have to be SL or Bangladesh. Let the bandar be the poor guys' fighter ordered in single digit units .. MoD should certainly look at clients with deep pockets.Middle east countries are excellent opportunities. If they wanted Chinese maal, they would have got it straight from them.

With the talk of a second production line for the LCA it puts us in a very good position to sell fighters + AEWC. This is a great step by MoD.

Shreeman ji : KCCO.
A couple weeks of FOC postponement isnt going to break bank nor affect HALs current production ability.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 14 Jan 2016 23:39

nirav,

A discussion of export is separate from the debate above. I should be able to posit a few facts without running afoul of my own previous commitment.

The production line will produce 12-18, reaching its peak in around 5 years. That is if FOC is ever reached.

At this rate, it would be optimistic to say the output by 2020 (only 4 years, perhaps 2-3 post FOC) is at most to SP20. That leaves a hundred or at full envisioned capacity another 7 or so years worth of emergency replacements for the alleged widow makers.

What exports? To whose benefit and where and when will they be made?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2016 23:53

Middle east want tech comparable to the west / yehudis.
They can't touch the yehudis. Western stuff is sometimes too expensive or off limits.

India sometimes has products that come close to the west/yehudis and with a sickular bonus. The gulf nations have traditionally traded with India for centuries onlee.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Jan 2016 00:04

Shreeman wrote:nirav,

A discussion of export is separate from the debate above. I should be able to posit a few facts without running afoul of my own previous commitment.

The production line will produce 12-18, reaching its peak in around 5 years. That is if FOC is ever reached.

At this rate, it would be optimistic to say the output by 2020 (only 4 years, perhaps 2-3 post FOC) is at most to SP20. That leaves a hundred or at full envisioned capacity another 7 or so years worth of emergency replacements for the alleged widow makers.

What exports? To whose benefit and where and when will they be made?

A lot of work is going on to increase production capacity from 8 to 16 and I dont want to discount the possibility of a second production line as was proposed by MoD.

As far as the air show deployment is concerned, it pushed back FOC byjust a couple weeks. Think the powers that be must have deliberated professionally and decided on the opportunity cost of delaying the FOC by a cpl weeks to making a presence felt at the air show.

That they chose to go ahead with the airshow shows their confidence in the maturity of the testing program and that the FOC finish line is not too far.

To say that 'IF FOC is ever reached' is a little too extreme.

Now that the LCAs are already there, might as well sit back and enjoy the flurry of pics/vids.
I hope ADA has taken the Photo-India guys along. They've come up with good stuff of the LCA trials vids ..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jan 2016 00:07

Guys. Enough. Why are we discussing non issues and wasting bandwidth?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 15 Jan 2016 00:38

The LCAs are carrying AAMs on the outer pylons? Or are these telemetry equipment or camera pods?

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 15 Jan 2016 00:44

Those can be dummy missile or smoker.....

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Jan 2016 00:46

They look like dummy R-77. I was expecting the usual smoke generators that they would carry for the demo.

Also....No especial paint scheme!! Some jazzy paint scheme would have spiced up the display.

Go Tejas GO!!!

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Jan 2016 00:51

The smoke winders look similar to a BVRAAM size wise ..

I doubt if its the smokewinders on the ferry flight ..
Could be dummy R73 for djinn aerodynamics purposes ..

Its interesting to note the usage of just 2 and not 3 tanks. I recall a PV pic kitted out with 3 of those big tanks ..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jan 2016 03:17

Yes its long been a puzzle as to why the Tejas is never seen flying with wing and under fuselage drop tanks all at the same time..a ferry flight would seemingly be when you'd want to have such a configuration in use..

unless the reason for having just the 2 underwing drop tanks was that with these 2 drop tanks itself the Tejas had adequate fuel to land at Muscat, allowing the pilots to disembark, take a short break and then depart for Bahrain.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Jan 2016 03:32

Kartik wrote:
unless the reason for having just the 2 underwing drop tanks was that with these 2 drop tanks itself the Tejas had adequate fuel to land at Muscat, allowing the pilots to disembark, take a short break and then depart for Bahrain.

Yes this could very well be the reason. I remember a quote by one of the test pilots about the LCAs fuel sipping nature and surprising range considering its size.

Got somehow lost in the "300KM combat range" hit job..

ravip · Post by **ravip** » 15 Jan 2016 05:31

I was wondering how the conservative BR'ians have been won over by the Paki physiological warfare by influencing them and make believe them that JF-17 is a paki fighter and find equivalence with India's LCA and high tech aerospace engineering. JF-17 is not a paki fighter and will never be one, it will always remain a Chinese fighter. In Bahrain it will be Indian Aerospace Engineering Vs Chinese Aerospace Engineering.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jan 2016 05:36

ravip wrote:I was wondering how the conservative BR'ians have been won over by the Paki physiological warfare by influencing them and make believe them that JF-17 is a paki fighter and find equivalence with India's LCA and high tech aerospace engineering. JF-17 is not a paki fighter and will never be one, it will always remain a Chinese fighter. In Bahrain it will be Indian Aerospace Engineering Vs Chinese Aerospace Engineering.

Not just US. The media and even Shiv Aroor. But I must compliment one news source - can't recall which that posted a pic of the two together and said "Indian versus Chinese jet"

Abhay_S · Post by **Abhay_S** » 15 Jan 2016 05:48

shiv wrote:
ravip wrote:I was wondering how the conservative BR'ians have been won over by the Paki physiological warfare by influencing them and make believe them that JF-17 is a paki fighter and find equivalence with India's LCA and high tech aerospace engineering. JF-17 is not a paki fighter and will never be one, it will always remain a Chinese fighter. In Bahrain it will be Indian Aerospace Engineering Vs Chinese Aerospace Engineering.
Not just US. The media and even Shiv Aroor. But I must compliment one news source - can't recall which that posted a pic of the two together and said "Indian versus Chinese jet"

Sudhi ranjan sen frm NDTV. He also did a professional job of reporting the attack on pathankot AFB

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2016 06:24

DRDO BAHRAIN INTERNATIONAL AIRSHOW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1JnsTvrcm8

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jan 2016 06:48

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 2172845058
History created - for first time #LCA-Tejas flies into foreign airspace to participate in Bahrain AirShow.

member_29089 · Post by **member_29089** » 15 Jan 2016 08:05

Congratulations to DRDO, ADA, & Navy for showing up in Bahrain!

Even if the target sales item were ALH Dhruv or an AEWC, it makes a lot of sense to showcase as much real hardware as possible. Exporting Tejas may not be too feasible given the 404 engine.... still great foresight and courage to land there and be showing the flying capabilities.

I wish they had showcased the Akash / Prahaar missile or two as well.

BTW I did a "neutral observation test". Asked a few five year olds which plane looks prettier - Tejas or the JF-17. Score was 4:0 in favour of Tejas.

(As someone pointed out above, the possibility of Pakis throwing sand in the Tejas engine is real)

ravip wrote:I was wondering how the conservative BR'ians have been won over by the Paki physiological warfare by influencing them and make believe them that JF-17 is a paki fighter and find equivalence with India's LCA and high tech aerospace engineering. JF-17 is not a paki fighter and will never be one, it will always remain a Chinese fighter. In Bahrain it will be Indian Aerospace Engineering Vs Chinese Aerospace Reverse Engineering.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 15 Jan 2016 09:05

Asked a few five year olds which plane looks prettier - Tejas or the JF-17. Score was 4:0 in favour of Tejas.

Make that 5:0. That JF-17 sure is a dog.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jan 2016 09:16

Singha wrote:jamnagar being tacde has the ACMI ground and air based systems needed for mock fights and tracking to see how the missiles are guided out to the manouvering targets. this is different from just locking on to some sedate drone over the sea off goa and putting it down, blind fires or carriage trials.

TACDE moved many years ago to Gwalior.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jan 2016 09:30

Kartik wrote:Yes its long been a puzzle as to why the Tejas is never seen flying with wing and under fuselage drop tanks all at the same time..a ferry flight would seemingly be when you'd want to have such a configuration in use..

unless the reason for having just the 2 underwing drop tanks was that with these 2 drop tanks itself the Tejas had adequate fuel to land at Muscat, allowing the pilots to disembark, take a short break and then depart for Bahrain.

Guessing that the ferry range with 3 tanks is not enough to get to Bahrain with some reserve, and carrying that extra tank to Muscat would only consume more fuel

Jamnagar-Muscat 1200 km
Jamnagar-Bahrain 2000 km

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 15 Jan 2016 10:02

indranilroy wrote:Forgot another update from FB communications.

Indranil Roy wrote: And this (the ballast in the nose) is expected to come down after the IFR probe is bolted on? Is it likely that this ballast is completely done away with restructuring and reorganizing the LRUs/MLG on the Mk1A. Reports claim so. I have learnt not to believe reports.

AM wrote: If I'm not completely mistaken, the LSPs and the SPs already had the internal plumbing built-in for the IFR. So maybe hydraulics for the Probe, the Probe itself and the Probe-plumbing interface etc needs integrating - so I'd doubt the entire forward-fuselage ballast can be done away just by IFR integration. However what would be interesting to find out the weight-penalties wrt 2052 (vs 2032) integration

Indranil Roy wrote: Of course. I just meant ballast commiserate to the weight of just the probe will come off

Tejas - LCA wrote: Indranil Roy , You are absolutely right, Sir. The IFR probe will reduce the ballast weight. As currently, only the prototypes are flying, the ballast is a variable. Once, the final version, rather the frozen SOP starts flying, things will streamline.

AM Sir, the last of the LSPs are getting modified for the IFR probe.

A few more updates from the FB page:

AM wrote: Quick question - there are press reports that LSP-4/7 that're off to Bahrain Air show, would perform the BVR firing (Derby) tests for FOC after they have returned from it (i.e. post 23-Jan).
Question is, does this mean that LSP-4/7 are already retrofitted with Cobham built quartz radomes - or are they going to go ahead with BVR testing with the old ASLs Kevlar based radome?

Tejas - LCA wrote: Lsp4 and lsp7 are heading for bahrain and on the return leg, lsp7 will fire bvr. Cobham radome ground testing is on. Flight test will commence soon. BVR firing is without this.
....
....
....
Tejas - LCA wrote: Raghunath Gb Sir, Indian Flying dreams has to be monumental. Only then some portion of it can be achieved. Tejas should be looked upon as a bridge between technological shortfalls and technical brilliance which we all possess. Success of LCA is success of Indian aviation leaving all the contemplation and brickbats aside..

Arti Verlekar wrote: well put !! The wishes and prayers of all indians are with you!! God speed.

AM wrote: Yes ... and once we have got Uttam and a DRFM-based wide-band internal SPJ integrated, it will be a success story of indigenous Avionics as well. It's just a matter of time betw, once we arrive there, the only thing is to keep a strict vigil on the assorted nay-sayers who are out there in full force to try and derail it.

Geetesh Bhave wrote: I guess the internal spj will be on the mark 2...no space present in the 1a

Tejas - LCA wrote: Thought is on to modify the OB pylon to carry both the spj and the missiles. Another thought is to utilize the wing tips for spj. Nothing concrete as of now.

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 15 Jan 2016 10:09

shiv wrote:
Kartik wrote:Yes its long been a puzzle as to why the Tejas is never seen flying with wing and under fuselage drop tanks all at the same time..a ferry flight would seemingly be when you'd want to have such a configuration in use..

unless the reason for having just the 2 underwing drop tanks was that with these 2 drop tanks itself the Tejas had adequate fuel to land at Muscat, allowing the pilots to disembark, take a short break and then depart for Bahrain.
Guessing that the ferry range with 3 tanks is not enough to get to Bahrain with some reserve, and carrying that extra tank to Muscat would only consume more fuel

Jamnagar-Muscat 1200 km
Jamnagar-Bahrain 2000 km

A PIB press release (http://pib.nic.in/newsite/erelease.aspx?relid=102056) states the ferry range to be 1700 km, putting it smack in the middle of Muscat and Bahrain. No idea of the tankage considered for calculating the range.

Or maybe DRDO/ADA are playing it super safe... The stakes are high.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Jan 2016 10:31

a) Feel very proud to see LCA fly out of india and hope can be inducted in IAF colors/service very soon. But isnt its export potential very limited with imported engines, radars and ordanance in the lightweight category with a very capable Gripen as a competitor? b) what is wrong if chinese have stolen or reverse engineered technology... indians have also done that wrt space tech. all countries do that... lets not sit on a moral high horse.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 15 Jan 2016 10:33

On the reasons to fly to Muscat, one obvious reason is flight planning.

Extended flights over sea on a single engine fighter does not have to comply with Civil Aviation rules but will follow the general safety margins:

a) Fuel for Ground Ops - Start - Taxy out, Taxy Back switch off - Approx 10 mins @ m ltrs per hr
b) Fuel for Take off - Climb to cruise Altitude @x Ltrs per Hr
c) Fuel for Cruise to begining of descent @ y ltrs per hour
d) Fuel for descent - landing @ z Ltrs per hr
e) Fuel for 20 mins (or 40 mins hold at approx 10000' AGL in Civil Aviation) hold overhead destination @ n ltrs per hr
f) Fuel for declared diversion as per flight plan.

So if max ferry range is 1700 Km, about 1000 Kms is a good plan for a single leg mostly over sea. The rest will form back up fuel.

Corrected: Units of distance from NM to Kms

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 15 Jan 2016 10:34

and anyone with a modicum of sense know JF 17 is a chinese plane..howsoever Pakis may try to claim it... i doubt if they can even make the paint for the JF 17 with their tech base !!