India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

[habal]

but has he been 'aquitted' ? Not that I am supporting kangaroo courts of USA in any manner but read something in another report that there were still other charges pending against him and that he was still in custody.

[member_22733]

Anyone want to bet that it would be a "mistrial"? And even if he does get punished, he would be acquitted in a higher court? I am pretty certain that he is not in custody, but dont want to waste time digging up info on that filth.

[member_29089]

Folks,
US Police officer slamming Mr. Patel to ground and seriously injuring him is certainly despicable. But what is the purpose of this discussion? Is it related to India-US relations? I feel it was an incident of police heavy handedness and somebody got hurt and AT LEAST THERE WAS A TRIAL. Hope we keep things in perspective and not malign the country over this incident. For the perspective, such things and worse happen in India all the time involving police- not to mention police inaction even in cases of serious crime.

[Kashi]

For the perspective, such things and worse happen in India all the time involving police- not to mention police inaction even in cases of serious crime.

You don't see Indians and the Indian head of state going all preachy over tolerance and "rights" in US do you? If that country has decided that it must decide the standards for everyone else (except when they are allies), then surely it's not too unreasonable to expect them to adhere to the very high-standards that they preach about?

And when was the last time you saw an Indian police officer cripple an elderly American visitor with the judge proclaiming that the gora American was at fault because he could not speak Haryanvi??

[putnanja]

Its to be expected. It happened in Alabama, and the south is known for racism. There is no way a white police officer would have been convicted. And the judge and jury came from the same stock.

Of course, a sham trial happened to show to the world that we follow process of justice. The result was of course predictable to everyone. In the US, its difficult to get any judgement against white police officers who use unnecessary violence against non-white civilians. The conviction rate is very very less. Not just in south, but even in supposedly "liberal" places like NY or CA or Seattle etc.

[chetak]

Folks,
US Police officer slamming Mr. Patel to ground and seriously injuring him is certainly despicable. But what is the purpose of this discussion? Is it related to India-US relations? I feel it was an incident of police heavy handedness and somebody got hurt and AT LEAST THERE WAS A TRIAL. Hope we keep things in perspective and not malign the country over this incident. For the perspective, such things and worse happen in India all the time involving police- not to mention police inaction even in cases of serious crime.

among the many wondrous agreements that the great US wants us kafir Indians to sign with them is one that provides a blanket diplomatic immunity to all US military personnel in India. This is basically to protect them during their R&R revelries in India.

sauces and geese come to mind.

[putnanja]

The US servicemen are known for their rowdy behavior. This has been proved multiple times in Japan, Philippines, S Korea and various other places. It is better that India doesn't provide such blanket immunity to people with such history.

[Viv S]

When did we give the Americans permission to set up a military base here?

[habal]

Folks,
Is it related to India-US relations? I feel it was an incident of police heavy handedness and somebody got hurt and AT LEAST THERE WAS A TRIAL.

err ... the only reason this happened because the officer was upto his head in 'white privilege' and he believed he would get away with choke slamming a non-white individual at no cost to his self .. he felt his peers would 'understand' and the rest of 'his society' would accept and maybe even appreciate what he did. This is institutional disregard or discrimination for people of specific kind. No such thing exists in India and please do not draw parallels between institutionalized racism practiced in USA with pseudo propaganda templates of suttee, dowryy, caste, slavery, etc .. A proper parallel would be if India had such a system & judiciary in place to validate high-handedness against fijians, moroccans, arabs or any other random nationality living in India. Even if you can point out specific examples of discrimination that happens in India, it is taken care of if judiciary has to play a role and the case goes to courts. Nowhere in the world does discrimination that exists in socities carry over to courts and govt as well. As you can see there is no parallel to this and it is a very American process.

[member_29218]

If a loved is diagnosed with this my advice: Please do get my point of the post.. read the literature. PDQ is a nice resource. It has a section which is for doctors (giving all the latest data) and another section for patients (where the information is in less technical form). Get to a GOOD doctor, and by good I mean good - do some background checking. (If (s)he is insecure enough to brush your questions - do not hesitate to find second/third opinion. Most important, if some one is still in stone-age (and have not kept up-to-date) find the one who is not.

Amber G Ji:

All very valid points. With any serious disease - heck even diabetes, you need a 'good doctor' (that definition will need a whole new thread though). Unfortunately the Internet is not the best place for information although it can be a huge help. You cannot compare years of medical education and a lifetime of experience with an hour or two of internet surfing.

(This is not an isolated case, as I said before, some forms of cancers have very good prognosis -specially if caught early and you have good doctor).

Again, correct, as I said in my first post in response to this, it all depends on the organ involved, the type of cancer within that organ (well-differentiated vs undifferentiated, lymphocytic vs myelocytic etc) and the stage at diagnosis. Some are almost completely curable, some can only be palliated even then.

Don't get me wrong, I am by no means being cynical about medical progress over the decades. There have been tremendous breakthroughs (**** is not the only case in point ). Surgical techniques are improving constantly - I am here today probably because of that - and some hitherto chronic diseases are now curable.

The best example I can give you is Hepatitis C, it is now possible to cure this with 97% success in just 12 weeks with one pill a day. There is NO other disease that responds as well to therapy. This is perhaps the greatest medical success of this decade.

OTOH, in the past forty years there has been no significant progress in the management of simple and common diseases like diabetes, hypertension, stroke and congestive heart failure, which kill the most people.

[Lilo]

Its to be expected. It happened in Alabama, and the south is known for racism. There is no way a white police officer would have been convicted. And the judge and jury came from the same stock.

Of course, a sham trial happened to show to the world that we follow process of justice. The result was of course predictable to everyone. In the US, its difficult to get any judgement against white police officers who use unnecessary violence against non-white civilians. The conviction rate is very very less. Not just in south, but even in supposedly "liberal" places like NY or CA or Seattle etc.

While the first instinct might be to rationalize this behavior to the so called "racist" south...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1575958

[putnanja]

I am not rationalizing the behavior to racist south, as I have explained later, its similar behavior in "liberal" areas too.

[member_29218]

Amber Ji, I am in the field and ought to know. Granted many cancer victims have a better chance today but not in a 'global' sense. Treatment of NHL or Hodgkin's lymphoma has not really changed since the 70s. CHOPP and MOPP (or minor variations thereof) are still quite useful and the mainstay of therapy in many protocols.

Each cancer in any given individual is a different biological entity. It all depends on the organ involved and the stage at diagnosis. Many cancers are still hopelessly incurable today as they were in the 60s.

.

With respect, even if you say in you are in the field, it is obvious that you DO NOT know. Any good scientist will know that "use of authority as a means of argument is very poor".

(As an aside, I have several doctors in my family including my sister and Daughter-in-law. One is oncologist in a top US place - but that is not necessary. Anyone can check/read medical text books)

Just few things -

TSJ was talking about 60's not 70's, and ABVD regiment used in 90's is quite different from MOPP or CHOPP you are referring. You do not have to take my word for this, just check out PDQ - NCI's Comprehensive Database.

Actually The late 1970s and 80s most came to recognition adverse effects associated with MOPP and radiation therapy (some of which were not apparent at that time treatment). This time period also featured another major advance in an alternative four-drug chemotherapy regimen (doxorubicin, bleomycin, vinblastine, and dacarbazine).

I am pointing it out here, because I think, if you are in the profession, it is extremely irresponsible.
to make statements like "Many cancers are still hopelessly incurable today as they were in the 60s." Sure some cases (eg Brain, lung etc) this may be somewhat true, for many is is completely false. Ask any one in oncology field - she will tell you, for types like colon, breast, NHL the median survival times >10 years... and survival rate has improved something like about 20 fold for some in last few decades.

Others - PLEASE do your own reading and checking
***
For interested let me just quote a small piece from December 2008 article.

Today, children, adolescents, and young and older adults worldwide routinely survive Hodgkin lymphoma with modern treatment. Current efforts seek to maintain optimal health for these survivors, to define the least complicated cures for newly diagnosed patients, and, ultimately, to better understand risks for and prevention of this disease.

From: 50 Years in Hematology: Research That Revolutionized Patient Care.

Primusji - if you don't mind telling us -which field are you in?. Thanks.

Amber G Ji, I seem to have mixed up my responses to your posts, saw this one later.

As I said, my apologies for the MOPP phrase, the right thing for me to say would have been 'the treatment of some lymphomas has not changed substantially since the the MOPP days', I was trying to illustrate the fact that certain cancers, even with the huge amounts of money thrown at them cannot be 'cured' any more today than they could be 40 years ago. However, that statement of mine was incorrect and irresponsible, I admit.

The reason I brought up the lymphoma was because I went through it with my father. He was treated twice with a variation of CHOP. It is not 'old stuff' as you might have assumed from your reading, here is a study showing it to be better than ABVD. I don't wish to waste bandwidth, but many cancer drugs today are simply slightly modern variations of the old ones, a bit like esomeprazole is an isomer of omeprazole but works much better. And FWIW, MOPP can still be used today if ABVD fails. In fact all these drugs, with the exception of Rituximab (which is a monoclonal antibody) are basic variations of the same MOPP/CHOP and CHOP particularly is still the mainstay of therapy (along with Rituximab) for many lymphomas. So my original statement was not that egregious.

Still, I will submit this was an error on my part and will say no more.

The improved survival of colon cancer and many others like that today is mainly because of improved overall patient care. You can keep people alive longer with ancillary care. As I said earlier, it is a multi-disciplinary approach which works better in today's system where you have better surgical techniques, better catheters and instruments, better nursing care, better ventilators, better imaging modalities, better ability to target radiation, better drugs to control bleeding from the gut etc etc.

Taken on its own the progress against colon cancer has not changed that significantly. The huge difference has been in the ability to diagnose it early because of easy availability of endoscopic techniques. Esophageal, pancreatic, biliary (cholangio) caner are all as terrible to deal with today as they were 40 yrs ago. You can keep the patient living longer with all sorts of stents and surgeries but the cancer still takes its toll.

As for who I am and what I do, I've sent you a PM.

Oops, I am told I am not allowed to do that. Sorry.

Regards.

[chanakyaa]

Why Alabama Police Officer Charged With Assaulting Unarmed Indian Grandfather Was Acquitted
...
as Tuten opined in his opening statements for the defense: "When you come to the U.S. we expect you to follow our laws and speak our language. Mr. Patel bears as much responsibility for this as anyone."

If my reading is correct, Mr. Patel did not break any laws, which boils down to his fault of not knowing local language. Does this mean, those foreigners who travel to India, if get assaulted ( ), by our pandu, bear as much responsibility of not knowing Hindi, Marathi, Telgu, Tamil, Bengali etc. etc?

[Karan M]

Primus saar, have to admire your reasoned and polite responses to obnoxious hectoring.

[member_29218]

I think we have made great strides against cancer due to environment and lifestyle causation. But cancer due to genetics remains extremely hard to cure (if cure is the appropriate word).

TSJ Ji, not to belabor the point, but we do not know too much about what causes cancers even now. Yes, smoking causes lung cancer, but I know people with it who have never smoked. Genetic cancers are relatively rare, although one could argue that there is a predisposition to many cancers in our genes and certain ethnic groups have higher incidence of certain cancers.

Regardless of what I said earlier rhetorically, we have made great strides in medical care overall. There are many, many diseases where comfort and relief can be provided, even a cure.

However, I would still say that it has not translated into a better quality of life in all instances. We can, today, prolong life in a quantitative fashion but if you were to see some of these people you would wonder if you had done a good thing overall.

[Lilo]

I am not rationalizing the behavior to racist south, as I have explained later, its similar behavior in "liberal" areas too.

My apologies , didnt read your post properly.

[Viv S]

err ... the only reason this happened because the officer was upto his head in 'white privilege' and he believed he would get away with choke slamming a non-white individual at no cost to his self .. he felt his peers would 'understand' and the rest of 'his society' would accept and maybe even appreciate what he did. This is institutional disregard or discrimination for people of specific kind. No such thing exists in India and please do not draw parallels between institutionalized racism practiced in USA with pseudo propaganda templates of suttee, dowryy, caste, slavery, etc .. A proper parallel would be if India had such a system & judiciary in place to validate high-handedness against fijians, moroccans, arabs or any other random nationality living in India. As you can see there is no parallel to this and it is a very American process.

No institutional racism in India? Well.. there is plenty of societal racism in urban areas (particularly here in Delhi), extending well beyond the more obvious targets such as Africans & North Easterners (though we don't have many Moroccans or Arabs). Our institutions are staffed and manned by people who come from the same society, so how can they be immune to it? Of course in rural areas, its casteism rather than racism that is dominant. And its influence pervades very deeply into institutions especially at lower levels.

I've never visited the US, but from what I can gather, Indian-Americans are by-and-large living the dream as the new model-minority; highest per-capita income, two governors (both from the 'racist' South), and rapidly growing influence in Washinton. This despite a shade of skin that varies between Hispanic and African-American.

[Viv S]

Maybe I'm wrong and if so perhaps the Indian-Americans on the forum, of whom we have a fair few, can correct me. Have you experienced or heard of many incidents of police intimidation against Indians in the US?

[Shreeman]

Folks,
US Police officer slamming Mr. Patel to ground and seriously injuring him is certainly despicable. But what is the purpose of this discussion? Is it related to India-US relations? I feel it was an incident of police heavy handedness and somebody got hurt and AT LEAST THERE WAS A TRIAL. Hope we keep things in perspective and not malign the country over this incident. For the perspective, such things and worse happen in India all the time involving police- not to mention police inaction even in cases of serious crime.

Gunter,

The ONLY way to dispel the myth of "due process" is actually to try to exercise it. Everyone has something they can litigate if they wished. Go ahead and try. You could get lucky. And keep believing in christmas. But the odds are that the realization of "jesus" will come as early as the first meeting with an attorney. And countries are irrelevent in this experiment, let alone coasts. The world is made of a single fabric. Those trying to be the only chosen ones are just smelling their own discharges too much.

[putnanja]

Maybe I'm wrong and if so perhaps the Indian-Americans on the forum, of whom we have a fair few, can correct me. Have you experienced or heard of many incidents of police intimidation against Indians in the US?

Police intimidation is mainly against non-whites/immigrants etc. Doesn't matter if you are in high-tech industry area or in impoverished place. And then there is also willful neglect. For e.g., in our area, there was quite a few Indian homes that were burgled, but there was hardly any peep from the local police department even after some people talked to police about it. Then, couple of houses of white folks got burgled in a different neighborhood, and there was a TV report on it, and also local police saying they are increasing patrolling in that area etc.

In US, the police are placed on a high pedestal. So proving anything against them is very difficult unless you have extraordinary proof and there is no way to wiggle out of it. There are too many instances of police officers shooting unarmed non-white folks just because "they felt threatened" and as seen in the current Indian case, that is more than enough for jury to acquit them.

[Shreeman]

err ... the only reason this happened because the officer was upto his head in 'white privilege' and he believed he would get away with choke slamming a non-white individual at no cost to his self .. he felt his peers would 'understand' and the rest of 'his society' would accept and maybe even appreciate what he did. This is institutional disregard or discrimination for people of specific kind. No such thing exists in India and please do not draw parallels between institutionalized racism practiced in USA with pseudo propaganda templates of suttee, dowryy, caste, slavery, etc .. A proper parallel would be if India had such a system & judiciary in place to validate high-handedness against fijians, moroccans, arabs or any other random nationality living in India. As you can see there is no parallel to this and it is a very American process.

Institutional racism in India? Well.. there is plenty of societal racism in urban areas (particularly here in Delhi), extending well beyond the more obvious targets such as Africans & North Easterners (though we don't have many Moroccans or Arabs). Our institutions are staffed and manned by people who come from the same society, so how can they be immune to it? Of course in rural areas, its casteism rather than racism that is dominant. And its influence pervades rather deeply into institutions at that level.

I've never visited the US, but from what I can gather, Indian-Americans are by-and-large living the dream as the new model-minority; highest per-capita income, two governors (both from the 'racist' South), and rapidly growing influence in Washinton. This despite a shade of skin varying from Hispanic to African-American.

You *could* visit any of the Leela properties and take one impression with you. Or you could stay at the ITCs and take another one. For best effort and positive reporting, private nests in daryagunj and chosen localities of mumbai, kerala.

Consider the fact that if reporting werent so glorious, then why would it attract the top few in india who manage to get an ejjucation? And why is it that every time a sikh is attacked for being a muslim, they are a taxi driver or a bus driver or a gas station attendent? You only need one nadella to bring up the statistics. And you have entire IIT classes. Who is going to report on the random surjeet singh?

If you were born away from India, the rules are slightly different. The glass ceiling rises. The back of the bus is closer to the front. You still cant just sit anywhere. People are the same everywhere. The christians pick up poop in bakistan. The bakis do worse in umreeka.

Morality is what keeps biases in check. It isnt just racism that was latent and is now free to come out, its the decades of dehumanisation on foreign shores that is coming home. All the laa enforcement is ex-military.

edit -- the police unions dont let anyone count killings. The gun lobby has outlawed any statistics on gun violence. Do we really need to go further? the president cries on tv for some way out of the mess.

[habal]

err ... the only reason this happened because the officer was upto his head in 'white privilege' and he believed he would get away with choke slamming a non-white individual at no cost to his self .. he felt his peers would 'understand' and the rest of 'his society' would accept and maybe even appreciate what he did. This is institutional disregard or discrimination for people of specific kind. No such thing exists in India and please do not draw parallels between institutionalized racism practiced in USA with pseudo propaganda templates of suttee, dowryy, caste, slavery, etc .. A proper parallel would be if India had such a system & judiciary in place to validate high-handedness against fijians, moroccans, arabs or any other random nationality living in India. As you can see there is no parallel to this and it is a very American process.

No institutional racism in India? Well.. there is plenty of societal racism in urban areas (particularly here in Delhi), extending well beyond the more obvious targets such as Africans & North Easterners (though we don't have many Moroccans or Arabs). Our institutions are staffed and manned by people who come from the same society, so how can they be immune to it? Of course in rural areas, its casteism rather than racism that is dominant.

nothing that we didn't know already .. right !
but if one with grievance and victim of said discrimination go to court in India seeking justice, will they face such a kangaroo court as well ? Will any judge throw out their plea and acquit the offender. That is where only a certain country is 'instutionalized'.

you will get succor at some level in India if you persist whereas that feature is missing in entire system of USA for crimes against certain typea of people.

warts and all, we are still a free country with free people. When you got to a foreign country and lose your freedom only then will you realize what this means.

[Viv S]

You *could* visit any of the Leela properties and take one impression with you. Or you could stay at the ITCs and take another one. For best effort and positive reporting, private nests in daryagunj and chosen localities of mumbai, kerala.

ITC and Leela properties promise a pleasant stay for everyone regardless of creed & race. But I'm talking on the road, on the DTC, in the Metro and at the flat in the colony rented out to working individual.

Consider the fact that if reporting werent so glorious, then why would it attract the top few in india who manage to get an ejjucation? And why is it that every time a sikh is attacked for being a muslim, they are a taxi driver or a bus driver or a gas station attendent? You only need one nadella to bring up the statistics. And you have entire IIT classes. Who is going to report on the random surjeet singh?

Certainly your socio-economic conditions have a major bearing on how you're treated by society in general, and public institutions like law enforcement in particular. If you're driving a BMW you're less likely to be pulled over for resembling a chap who robbed a local liquor store. But given that the median income for Indian Americans is $100K+ and 75% of them have a college degree, one would expect the biases to go the other way.

Morality is what keeps biases in check. It isnt just racism that was latent and is now free to come out, its the decades of dehumanisation on foreign shores that is coming home. All the laa enforcement is ex-military.

Question is how's it any different anywhere in the world? Including here at home. Different breakdown of communities, similar attitudes. Of course in an ideal world, we wouldn't have any biases, but we have to live in the world we have.

edit -- the police unions dont let anyone count killings. The gun lobby has outlawed any statistics on gun violence. Do we really need to go further? the president cries on tv for some way out of the mess.

Well the victims in most of the mass shootings that have happened recently have been white. And while a disproportionate number of victims in 'regular' gun violence are minorities, the perpetrators are even more likely to be Black or Hispanic. I don't believe racism comes into play on the question of gun control.

[member_29218]

nothing that we didn't know already .. right !
but if one with grievance and victim of said discrimination go to court in India seeking justice, will they face such a kangaroo court as well ? Will any judge throw out their plea and acquit the offender. That is where only a certain country is 'instutionalized'.

you will get succor at some level in India if you persist whereas that feature is missing in entire system of USA for crimes against certain typea of people.

warts and all, we are still a free country with free people. When you got to a foreign country and lose your freedom only then will you realize what this means.

I am not sure that is entirely correct. Things are never quite black and white (pun unintended).

The justice system in the US is screwed up, no doubt about that. See 'American History X' to get an idea, it is an extremely powerful movie and depicts the problem from both sides.

However, there is still the law of the land and at least for the average man it is upheld much better than I've seen elsewhere. Nothing is perfect, but you won't see Lalu''s life and career demolished the way Eliot Spitzer's was. A Jessica Lal is probably more likely to happen in India than in the US.

The simplest way I can put it is to look at traffic accidents. The law is the law, you hit somebody from behind, you are at fault, no matter what. In India it is usually whoever can get the mob on their side.

It is the minor stuff, the little things that we have taken for granted that define the quality of life, at least for me. The fact that I know my mail will not be tampered with, that I will not need to bribe somebody to do their normal jobs, that my bank will treat me with honor and respect, that when I drop a parcel off at the post office I don't need to make sure it is 'stamped and canceled' before I leave etc. etc.

And no, I don't wish to make this an Us vs Them or an India vs the US theme. There are problems everywhere, just the degree varies. It is up to each of us to decide where we can find a balance between our financial/emotional/career needs and the rule of the law.

[Viv S]

nothing that we didn't know already .. right !
but if one with grievance and victim of said discrimination go to court in India seeking justice, will they face such a kangaroo court as well ? Will any judge throw out their plea and acquit the offender. That is where only a certain country is 'instutionalized'.

How often do you hear of an active prosecution let alone a conviction in the event of a hate crime in India? Take the high profile Nido Taniam murder for example. Son of an MLA from Arunachal who's death was followed by widespread protests. What was the result?

Principal Magistrate Vishal Singh, Juvenile Justice Board -I, has released the two minor offenders on probation and directed them to pay a fine of Rs 10,000 each. The Juvenile Justice Board had earlier found them guilty on charges related to culpable homicide not amounting to murder, wrongfully restraining and common intention. - Link

warts and all, we are still a free country with free people. When you got to a foreign country and lose your freedom only then will you realize what this means.

I said I've never been to the US, not that I've never been to a foreign country. I've been to Europe for example and I found it quite friendly (with relatively few exceptions). It didn't feel like home, but I didn't feel like I'd been stripped of my freedom either.

[disha]

Maybe I'm wrong and if so perhaps the Indian-Americans on the forum, of whom we have a fair few, can correct me. Have you experienced or heard of many incidents of police intimidation against Indians in the US?

Yes. Have been victim to several myself. Thankfully, it was limited to verbal intimidation. DWB applies to Desis as well.

&

No. There have been very good cops as well. I have seen more good cops than bad cops.

However, since the place I live is already diverse and welcoming., the cops are already sensitized.

Places like Alabama or Kansas or the Deep White Sauce - Police needs to take cultural training and to be sensitive and respectful to Indians including the fact that the entire America - their very existence, their livelihood and their health is thanks to Indians.

Several Desis also need to be aware of the fact that there is something called 'Individual Responsibility' and they must not always try to beat the system.

[disha]

If my reading is correct, Mr. Patel did not break any laws, which boils down to his fault of not knowing local language. Does this mean, those foreigners who travel to India, if get assaulted ( ), by our pandu, bear as much responsibility of not knowing Hindi, Marathi, Telgu, Tamil, Bengali etc. etc?

Yes UdayM'ji the same logic applies. So Indian police can break down a few gora bones now. Preferably from the Deep South and preferably the ones who are trying to spread 'love'.

[Shreeman]

^^^ A black *rapper* recently withdrew 200,000 of his cash from a bank. On his way out the security tackled him for robbing the bank, then handcuffed him, then took 100,000 for no reason (later said to be returned). No racism there. You dont walk into a bank to get this sort of money. You make arrangements days ahead. Another day an ex NBA player was beaten up because an informat pointed at him. Cops routinely *keep* cash if they find it in your car. And it wont be much of a car when they are done tearibg it apart. BMWs are dime a dozen, driving them isnt a separator. socio economics is *no longer* a protection the way it used to be. No, luck, keeping your mouth shut and staying under the normalcy cover and away from any trouble, including troubling opinion help. The dont insulate, but they help.

Dont go out at night into troubled spots. Watch speed limit at night. Dont drive on random empty roads, take the main streets as much as possible. Dont get lost, ever. Dont even think of drinking and driving. Never try turning around by driving into someones house. So on. The defensive tips are endless. They apply to everyone. You are one mistake away from entering "the system".

there is no comparison possible between societies. This is why the suttee, torn shirt, open fly, washing poop or using paper are so commonly used excuses by the media. keep the masses distracted. the rest of the world they dont get to see has it much worse. follow "the law". "the law" is a high school dropout who couldnt get anywhere near your workplace without his badge.

Breaking a spine or shooting in the back. Isnt it just splitting hairs? Gun control isnt about mass shootings. Routine killings, 10,000s each year just dont make the news. which mass attack has claime 10,000s? Why do you think guns are so dear here? Evil gobernmand, no: its to defend the white wimmens when the downtrodden barge in and attack. The matter is no so simple as gun control law and 2nd amendment.

edit --"individual responsibility" is now obeying all the defensive tips, TSA style. One word out of place, and you know where you stand.

[disha]

I said I've never been to the US, not that I've never been to a foreign country. I've been to Europe for example and I found it quite friendly (with relatively few exceptions). It didn't feel like home, but I didn't feel like I'd been stripped of my freedom either.

Sir'ji - there in lies your problem. You need to step out and live and try to make a livelihood. Any place you visit will be just that - visitor friendly. You are never going to visit a 'visitor unfriendly' station. Are you? And now your opportunity of experience is limited since because of immigrants influx more areas are getting sensitized.

Regarding your assessment of Desh., yes - we Indians tend to be stupid and be brutal on ourselves and that is because we can. There is little legal recourse for the victim.

It is not caste and neither racism. It is class. Recently an IAF Corp was mowed down by Momota's party's muscle-finance-man. What came out of it? In capital Delhi, You brought out the Nido case forgetting that anybody south of Vindhyas are called Madrasis or Kallus. You might think that is because of 'racism' - dig deeper and it is because of 'class'. In this case the political and non-political class. Class frictions can be fixed.

Again, please take your 'torn shirt, open fly' argument to a different thread. This is a thread for India-US relations and not how bad Deshis are.

Edit: Isn't it remarkable that one 'visits' places in foreign countries and find them 'friendly'? Of course who will visit unfriendly places in foreign countries. Have anybody here been in the bad parts of Chicago or Houston or Boston or Tijuana (like getting stuck there in the middle of the night?)

[disha]

^^^ A black *rapper* recently withdrew 200,000 of his cash from a bank. On his way out the security tackled him for robbing the bank, then handcuffed him, then took 100,000 for no reason (later said to be returned). No racism there. You dont walk into a bank to get this sort of money. You make arrangements days ahead. Another day an ex NBA player was beaten up because an informat pointed at him. Cops routinely *keep* cash if they find it in your car. And it wont be much of a car when they are done tearibg it apart. BMWs are dime a dozen, driving them isnt a separator. socio economics is *no longer* a protection the way it used to be. No, luck, keeping your mouth shut and staying under the normalcy cover and away from any trouble, including troubling opinion help. The dont insulate, but they help.

Dont go out at night into troubled spots. Watch speed limit at night. Dont drive on random empty roads, take the main streets as much as possible. Dont get lost, ever. Dont even think of drinking and driving. Never try turning around by driving into someones house. So on. The defensive tips are endless. They apply to everyone. You are one mistake away from entering "the system".

there is no comparison possible between societies. This is why the suttee, torn shirt, open fly, washing poop or using paper are so commonly used excuses by the media. keep the masses distracted. the rest of the world they dont get to see has it much worse. follow "the law". "the law" is a high school dropout who couldnt get anywhere near your workplace without his badge.

Breaking a spine or shooting in the back. Isnt it just splitting hairs? Gun control isnt about mass shootings. Routine killings, 10,000s each year just dont make the news. which mass attack has claime 10,000s? Why do you think guns are so dear here? Evil gobernmand, no: its to defend the white wimmens when the downtrodden barge in and attack. The matter is no so simple as gun control law and 2nd amendment.

edit --"individual responsibility" is now obeying all the defensive tips, TSA style. One word out of place, and you know where you stand.

^Remarkable post. Highlighting the mirth for all to see in the land of the free and home of the brave.

[member_29218]

Maybe I'm wrong and if so perhaps the Indian-Americans on the forum, of whom we have a fair few, can correct me. Have you experienced or heard of many incidents of police intimidation against Indians in the US?

I've worked in South Bronx, the stinking armpit of New York and perhaps the entire country, at a time when there were burnt out car wrecks on the curb and derelict, abandoned buildings all around. I've also lived and worked in the deep South and highly affluent white neighborhoods where we were the only non-whites around.

My take is that at lot depends upon you as an individual, the place and the daily life of the copper.

For example, the South Bronx cops all walked the beat in large groups, it was too dangerous to be alone. Gunshots would ring out daily, it was a war zone. In that setting their tempers were short and their attitude to us brown people (there were hardly any whites around) was not rude but curt. No nice smiles, how do you do sort of stuff. When you have to keep one hand on your gun most of the time, everyone is a suspect. However, no disrespect or intimidation in my five years there.

In the South and other white majority areas, my own experience was very pleasant, the DMV officer in Las Vegas took us by the hand to each counter and helped fill out the forms. In the mid-west too, the cops were all pleasant.

A state trooper pulled me over in New Mexico a few months ago, I was doing 95mph in a 65mph zone, on a single lane highway (don't ask, it was a beautiful day). He looked at my out of state license and my special ID and let me go with a mild warning. I was aghast. A copper where I live would have read me the riot act.

The key factor is your own behavior. 'Dadagiri' of any kind will have serious repercussions, you do exactly as the cops ask you to, they do not have time to find out if you are a threat to them or not. Policing in the US is a far riskier health proposition for the cops than in most places in the world.

[arshyam]

Nice defence by the 'har har USA' brigade. Immediate submissions entered into the record, pertaining to India's problems and saying it is all the same.

No, it isn't. Because the US paints itself to be an exceptional country, land of this, home of that, whatever, and makes sure the rest of the world are drilled into acceptance through multiple outlets (news media, Hollywood, etc.). It does not brand itself as an ordinary country with problems that occur in other ordinary countries. In that case, what's wrong in examining that claim to see if it holds water? And why the need to bring in non-existent Indian claims to exceptionalism and thereby dismissing the original examination? (Though personally, I think India has extremely strong claims to her exceptionalism and should make them).

Then there is this civilizational mission to right the world of its problems. Oh, we are exceptional, now we are going to try to make the rest of the world the same, never mind that one loses the claim to exceptionalism then. American civilization is young and sadly immature, like a little kid's: "oh I am good, so you must be too, or I will come with my friends and fight and make you be nice to me", "every one loves me, and if they don't, they hate me" not understanding the possibility of being in between. Then was this president, no less, who went on to say "if you are not with us, you must be against us". Really?

And here is the latest such do-good mission:

Obama vows to protect minorities at home, abroad - PTI, The Hindu

United States President Barack Obama on Saturday vowed to protect religious minorities both at home and abroad, even as a top American official said that Muslims in India and Hindus in Bangladesh and Pakistan were facing threat.

“Our commitment to religious freedom has fostered unprecedented religious diversity and freedom of religious practice. But these ideals are not self-executing. Rather, they require a sustained commitment by each generation to uphold and preserve them,” Mr. Obama said as he proclaimed January 16, 2016 as Religious Freedom Day.

This is crucial work

This work is crucial, particularly given the recent spike in reports of threats and violence against houses of worship, children and adults simply because of their religious affiliation, said the U.S. President.

Mr. Obama made no reference to any country in his speech but has said that his administration works to promote religious freedom around the globe.

Kindly don't come to try and do good and 'fix' world. The world was here long before your nation was established, and will continue to be here for a long time into the future.

[Shreeman]

^^^"you do exactly as the cops ask you to, they do not have time to find out if you are a threat to them or not."

This is the key.

[habal]

How often do you hear of an active prosecution let alone a conviction in the event of a hate crime in India? Take the high profile Nido Taniam murder for example. Son of an MLA from Arunachal who's death was followed by widespread protests. What was the result?

does it mean case is thrown out altogether and offender is acquitted. Nitish Katara case is still being fought.
did Nitish Katara case have a 10 man jury which consisted of 6 yadavs.
has the case been thrown out.
Jessica Lal case convicted Manu Sharma is still in prison or has served prison sentence no.

I said I've never been to the US, not that I've never been to a foreign country. I've been to Europe for example and I found it quite friendly (with relatively few exceptions). It didn't feel like home, but I didn't feel like I'd been stripped of my freedom either.

working in a foreign country means you are competing for resources with locals. That is a different perspective. the way you write you seem to be convinced that there is something inherently wrong with you and/or your immidiate society and that has to be extrapolated to the whole country and citizens who are unfortunate to share the citizenship with you or whom you are unfortunate to be clubbed along with.

[arshyam]

Edit: Isn't it remarkable that one 'visits' places in foreign countries and find them 'friendly'? Of course who will visit unfriendly places in foreign countries. Have anybody here been in the bad parts of Chicago or Houston or Boston or Tijuana (like getting stuck there in the middle of the night?)

Therein lies the rub. Most desis in the US are well to do due to being selected for their good educational qualifications (and of course our culture for hard work) and end up in the nice localities wherever they end up. Irving, Plano, Sugar Land, Sunnyvale, Fremont, Bellevue, central Jersey, etc. They don't live in downtown Philly, Trenton, Newark, Richmond (CA), Dallas, etc., nor live the real middle class lives they claim to be living in the US. And visitors/friends/family in India (who, by contrast are living real middle class lives in India) get to hear about the US from their impressions, so it is mostly positive. At best, a comment for balance like "oh, I took this bad exit in downtown Philly once, and a cop chased me out of there". I am not here to run down the US; I am merely saying that they have their own problems and we have our own, and its grating to keep hearing about "religious phreedom, hyooman rights, etc. in the world" like a broken record.

On top of that, an Indian jingo forum like BRF dragging India's problems (as though we don't know) in order to defend the mighty khan shows something seriously wrong. JM2c.

[Viv S]

Sir'ji - there in lies your problem. You need to step out and live and try to make a livelihood. Any place you visit will be just that - visitor friendly. You are never going to visit a 'visitor unfriendly' station. Are you? And now your opportunity of experience is limited since because of immigrants influx more areas are getting sensitized.

Thing is Dishaji, I don't need to travel 8000 miles to acquaint myself with racism or casteism or sexism or any other kind of -ism. I just need need to step out of my house. Or better yet, visit my village.

Also, I didn't mean to imply that I was just a tourist (I should watch my wording); I lived in Europe for a brief period (mostly in the UK). And I'll probably have to return next year. And I did experience a few isolated incidents of racism while there, but it didn't really bother me all that much. Perhaps because I didn't really expect human nature to be different in a foreign country. Rest is simply a function of socio-economic development.

It is not caste and neither racism. It is class. Recently an IAF Corp was mowed down by Momota's party's muscle-finance-man. What came out of it? In capital Delhi, You brought out the Nido case forgetting that anybody south of Vindhyas are called Madrasis or Kallus. You might think that is because of 'racism' - dig deeper and it is because of 'class'. In this case the political and non-political class. Class frictions can be fixed.

Its about class everywhere. A person belonging to a poorer community will always be more likely to be associated with a criminality and immorality and treated more harshly by the establishment. And over time (centuries) that's built up into prejudices against skin colour.

Again, please take your 'torn shirt, open fly' argument to a different thread. This is a thread for India-US relations and not how bad Deshis are.

If you think my post was about how bad Deshis are you've missed the point. I'm not ashamed of my country, quite the opposite. For the simple reason that today was better than yesterday, and yesterday better than the day before, and I'm confident tomorrow will be better still, for every segment of the population. I don't think there's any society that's liberalising as fast and as determinedly as ours.

______________________________________

And yes this thread is about India-US relations, and this is all off-topic... until the next incident happens, and people will want to discuss that even if its entirely unrelated to India.

[SaiK]

India in talks to open ports, bases to US military
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/0 ... i-j16.html

Under the LSA, the US would ostensibly guarantee similar rights to the Indian military. This, however, would be largely a dead letter, for while the US is an Asian and global military power, the reach of the Indian military is restricted to the subcontinent and parts of the Indian Ocean.

I think we have to be careful only to kill the commies. So, IMHO we should look at this LSA only country specific. Why not draft this deal only for Anti-Pakis and Anti-China ops? Rest is again case by case basis., but mandatorily, USA must go anti chippanda ops on a strategic basis aperiodically. For rest, India must approve for each ops., and must share intelligence and our men and platform. this way, we get special dedicated bases where our men and equipment are engaging in a constant inter-op exercise mode and machines and guns can be specifically driven out of this.

We should also have deep rights on IPRs, strategic and tactical doctrines, products and processes driven out of such gains. We must have freedom from the outcomes to engage better net-centric warfare capabilities driven by Indic logic and governance.

Essentially, we should drive this.

[KLNMurthy]

About the Patel case:

The thing to note is that America is a nation and society of laws, more so than India. It sounds wonderful and enviable but it means that the proportion of the human element in official-abdul interaction is less in America when compared to India.

The US, especially the south, has almost 150+ years of experience in crafting laws and enforcement practices that are intended to mask institutionalized prejudice--fear and hatred actually--towards dark skinned persons. Before that, they had experience going back to the 1600s in crafting legal frameworks that considered black people to be dangerous and stupid animals that have to be tamed and put to work.

For a parallel illustration of how blacks were systematically and legally kept from voting by laws that appear to be equal but in application are anything but, see below:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/20 ... siana.html

Currently the southern states, with the help of the Supreme Court are working diligently to make it harder again for black people to vote.

Coming to the police matter and the Patel case, the reason the officer was guaranteed to get away is that all he has to do is show that he made instant decisions according to his training. The training itself doesn't teach them directly to thrash or kill every dark skinned man and treat whites more humanely, but teaches them to respond to subjective "threat perception " in the moment. Which also provide ls a built in cast iron defense in court, because no prosecutor can prove that the officer is lying about how he was feeling at that moment. The training may use "realistic " images of menacing black persons disproportionately, while omitting case studies of mentally ill but harmless persons, or confused Older Indian men not accustomed to a dehumanizing encounter with a sharply uniformed, large and aggressive white security official (Indian security officials on the ground have a generally more approachable demeanor, certainly towards people of the social class shared by him and us on this forum). So, a cop having a bad day or just feeling mean can shoot down a 70 year old mentally ill frail black woman waving a screwdriver or a black kid with a toy gun, or a bulky 30 year old benign mentally ill white homeless man known to everyone on the street (but somehow not to the local police if you can believe it) and get away in investigation (it hardly ever comes to court) by citing personal threat.

In India, when people feel prejudice and hatred against someone they don't resort to the elaborate legal setup to act it out. The police may, once in a while thrash a Muslim, while shouting abuse at his religious background, but there is no question of any legal cover for such behavior. When they get away with it, it is never because they made a lawful but unfortunate decision under pressure (as in America) but because the prosecutorial system is itself bulky and inefficient and corrupt, or maybe some political or financial compromise was reached with community leaders of the aggrieved party.

When Indians not in Mr. Patel's situation (and mostly living in India) look at the American or Western officialdom including police they see something shiny, crisp, efficient and usually white, all of which are not adjectives generally applicable to Indian officials, and all of which we instinctively admire.

So, when an American administration tells us with a straight face that they are "concerned " about "intolerance " or official discrimination in India, we instinctively accept their right and authority to judge us in this way, because (a) we know that prejudice and hatreds do exist in India and (b) we mistakenly conflate a society of laws (more so than ours) in which laws are enforced by crisp, shiny, efficient and mostly white officials as being a society whose laws and legal system has no basis of hatred, malice or inhumanity in it, because in our minds, if we ever become crisp, efficient and shiny, 100% law-based, (and maybe even white after sufficient application of whitening cream) we can't imagine having a system that is anything but totally decent and humane.

[KLNMurthy]

^^^"you do exactly as the cops ask you to, they do not have time to find out if you are a threat to them or not."

This is the key.

How is it the burden is all on an abdul like Mr. Patel and not on the cop who is trained and paid to make good decisions?

Do you think an average Indian man, frightened and under pressure, will be able to follow precisely instructions shouted at him by a large white hostile armed official in an incomprehensible accent in a language he barely knows? Have you ever tried to give a simple instruction to someone not in a professional situation and seen how accurately it is followed?

When you grandly reveal "the key" and dust off your hands, you are overlooking the human element on the side of the Indian man. On the other hand, the officer's human element is already built into the system, because his conduct, while unfortunate, is completely lawful in a system that allows him discretion based on his own subjective threat perception.

It was not Mr. Patel's fault here for not following instructions and not his family's fault for not teaching him ahead of time. You are making it look like it is, by announcing your simplistic "key".