India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist strikes
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
So my point is exactly that. The "evidence-sharing" and "dossier-giving" should come ****AFTER*** that basic step. The IA aphsar is too kind. I would make it a point to hit the officers' mess in the nearest Paki post/base 5 times in a day at appropriate times. Also find out from RAA the address of any buildings / real property owned by senior PA aphsars (which is most of TSP) and accidentally hit those too. Totally "disproportionate" as in 100 Pakis killed for every Indian hurt in a terrorist attack.
Also, hit NEIGHBORS of J-e-M, L-E-T etc headquarters - i.e., make them undesirable as neighbors.
THEN... give the evidence for the Paki polis to go arrest those "responsible".
Pathankot was a glaring example of an opportunity (lost?). The whole world applauded when NaMo visited Lahore. A strong jhapad would have been understood and applauded by all. The delay is unconscionable.
The GOI's logic of pursuing all legally peaceful avenues BEFORE (i.e., never) resorting to military option, is obviously just leading to more and more murders of Indians, with no end in sight. It will not work, for the reasons I posted above: The Pakis will always plead that the evidence is not sufficient to stand up in (Paki) courts.
A good jhapad policy will GIVE the pakis some motivation to go after the terrorists. Like if the Judge's makaan is now a parking lot.
Also, hit NEIGHBORS of J-e-M, L-E-T etc headquarters - i.e., make them undesirable as neighbors.
THEN... give the evidence for the Paki polis to go arrest those "responsible".
Pathankot was a glaring example of an opportunity (lost?). The whole world applauded when NaMo visited Lahore. A strong jhapad would have been understood and applauded by all. The delay is unconscionable.
The GOI's logic of pursuing all legally peaceful avenues BEFORE (i.e., never) resorting to military option, is obviously just leading to more and more murders of Indians, with no end in sight. It will not work, for the reasons I posted above: The Pakis will always plead that the evidence is not sufficient to stand up in (Paki) courts.
A good jhapad policy will GIVE the pakis some motivation to go after the terrorists. Like if the Judge's makaan is now a parking lot.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Agree.. right now the IA stocks, serviceability across all 3 services are being fixed.. once that happens (window of 2018-19), options open up .. i suspect TSP knows this, hence their desire to up the ante before we can fix things in place.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
IMO the first step to any retaliation would be the Re-instate the Technical Services Division and then reform CIT-X/J (via SG) and let them loose over a 12-24 month period. Build Intelligence, Build Assets - when the Jihadis are feeling the most secure- strike then
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
+100rkhanna wrote:IMO the first step to any retaliation would be the Re-instate the Technical Services Division and then reform CIT-X/J (via SG) and let them loose over a 12-24 month period. Build Intelligence, Build Assets - when the Jihadis are feeling the most secure- strike then
Public perception and morale need to be taken into account. Landing a few blows in the middle of the night when nobody is watching does little for deterrence.Mahadevbhu wrote:Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Then why did those needle options come up to MMS post 26/11? Taking Sandeep U's reporting at face value.mahadevbhu wrote:Spoke to a chaiwallah over the weekend. Did not seem to be too perturbed by Pathankot. Said that India has significant amount of needling capacity and does do so , time to time.
In another thread I posted some info about Ayni thread and how we bought Akbars for Afghan air force. In a way this is also needling - but there is no tangible connection to terror incident X.
We want to take a tangible retaliation for any terror strike. The efficacy of that action is a separate debate. Public retaliation creates deterrence in the enemy's mind as well as well the larger public. Say I fire 155 mm shells into PoK villages every time a terrorist strikes, the Paki public may question the PA tactics. But if there is no retaliation perceived, then no questions will be asked in Pakistan.
During peak of Somali Piracy, the Russians blew up a pirate mothership with pirates in it and put up the video on Youtube. Nobody messed with Russian ships after that.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
I agree that there is shall be "disproportionate" and public response. Then and then only Pakis will learn. The border firing response was quite good and lot of people in their side died. Same needed to be repeated.
May be few car bombs killing top paki generals or top ISI fellows and "irresponsible" statements from people like Subbu or Swamy Aditya Nath that we have done the same which GOI can simply deny is the way to go.
May be few car bombs killing top paki generals or top ISI fellows and "irresponsible" statements from people like Subbu or Swamy Aditya Nath that we have done the same which GOI can simply deny is the way to go.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
^^^
I'm not sure I agree that we do 'needling' from time to time. I have posted a few instances on before where we have taken action but that is exclusively local commanders (Div, bde, bn level) taking initiative to retaliate to localized firing by Paki troops. I know of a couple of raids by 3 Para also which I haven't mentioned here but they were again very local. Quite rough to the Paki unit that faced them but very local and completely on army initiative.
I have not come across a single instance of targeting a terrorist head quarter or launching a proper attack as a response to a terrorist attack with permission from South Block, PMO, NSA etc. I do know of one case when about 50% preparations were made (intelligence available, op plan ready, units had been detailed) but before the rehearsals started orders were received to cancel. This was when Gen Parnaik was GOC n C Northern Command.
I also asked an ex GOC n C Southern Command whether the news of the support given by 11 Div (Gandhinagar) to RAW ops in Karachi and Balochistan were true. This offr had commanded 11 Div and also 11 Corps in Jallandhar. He categorically said no. And said that we have no ops in the area or anywhere for that matter.
My other chaiwala/rum wala sources say the same thing. Of course if a really deep op has been launched by int agencies then we may not have heard. But I doubt it.
I'm not sure I agree that we do 'needling' from time to time. I have posted a few instances on before where we have taken action but that is exclusively local commanders (Div, bde, bn level) taking initiative to retaliate to localized firing by Paki troops. I know of a couple of raids by 3 Para also which I haven't mentioned here but they were again very local. Quite rough to the Paki unit that faced them but very local and completely on army initiative.
I have not come across a single instance of targeting a terrorist head quarter or launching a proper attack as a response to a terrorist attack with permission from South Block, PMO, NSA etc. I do know of one case when about 50% preparations were made (intelligence available, op plan ready, units had been detailed) but before the rehearsals started orders were received to cancel. This was when Gen Parnaik was GOC n C Northern Command.
I also asked an ex GOC n C Southern Command whether the news of the support given by 11 Div (Gandhinagar) to RAW ops in Karachi and Balochistan were true. This offr had commanded 11 Div and also 11 Corps in Jallandhar. He categorically said no. And said that we have no ops in the area or anywhere for that matter.
My other chaiwala/rum wala sources say the same thing. Of course if a really deep op has been launched by int agencies then we may not have heard. But I doubt it.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
If i read the tea Leaves correctly TSD was very active post 26/11. The needling was being done. Just not in public Fora. Shut down of TSD has lead to direct increase in activity from across the border in an extremely short period of time. Speaks volumes of how effective the TSD was.Then why did those needle options come up to MMS post 26/11? Taking Sandeep U's reporting at face value
Also TSD did its thing across various facets of the WOT. Direct Action, Misinformation/Propaganda, Political maneuvering, etc. It was a truely Asymmetrical Warfare Capability that we now sorely miss.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
I disagree, I know a little bit about what TSD did. It was ALL ON OUR OWN TERRITORY. They did a very good job but nothing in POK.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
And forget POK, we have to hit them in Punjab. Thats where it hurts. Or other places....The Pak army tie suit jihadi general's kids kids study in the US and UK.....
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
^^
Not what I have heard. But no need to discuss this here. If we ever cross paths in a BR meet we can compare notes over a few beersI disagree, I know a little bit about what TSD did. It was ALL ON OUR OWN TERRITORY. They did a very good job but nothing in POK
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
balochistan is going to go.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
So, to reiterate:
The purpose of my upper post was to try reasoning out whether Pakistan ***COULD*** "reasonably, practically" act at the government level to stamp out terrorism. This is the question and expectation of the UN, foreign governments, US State Dept, Track Two candlewallahs, Reasonable People, Bijnej-IT-billionaires etc.
Unless someone can rebut my contentions there, I hold that it is USELESS to expect any action, and IMPOSSIBLE that peace will result. Even if the Pak govt takes some token steps such as "protective custody" (presumably to escape the RAA execution squad) and some "arrests", they will lead nowhere. They ***CANNOT*** lead anywhere.
Did they hang anyone for murdering Daniel Pearl? Why do you think they will hang anyone for murdering the innocent tax-driver in Punjab?
So I say that this proves the fallacy in the "Provide Evidence, Let the Law Take Its Course and **IF NOT, hain, we will show BEFITTING REPLY** course of inaction.
Sadly, or otherwise, we must then come to the logical, inescapable conclusion: Adopt the policy:
The purpose of my upper post was to try reasoning out whether Pakistan ***COULD*** "reasonably, practically" act at the government level to stamp out terrorism. This is the question and expectation of the UN, foreign governments, US State Dept, Track Two candlewallahs, Reasonable People, Bijnej-IT-billionaires etc.
Unless someone can rebut my contentions there, I hold that it is USELESS to expect any action, and IMPOSSIBLE that peace will result. Even if the Pak govt takes some token steps such as "protective custody" (presumably to escape the RAA execution squad) and some "arrests", they will lead nowhere. They ***CANNOT*** lead anywhere.
Did they hang anyone for murdering Daniel Pearl? Why do you think they will hang anyone for murdering the innocent tax-driver in Punjab?
So I say that this proves the fallacy in the "Provide Evidence, Let the Law Take Its Course and **IF NOT, hain, we will show BEFITTING REPLY** course of inaction.
Sadly, or otherwise, we must then come to the logical, inescapable conclusion: Adopt the policy:
I hope some actual decision-makers see this, and accept that my way is the only way to true Peace. I am the only truly non-violent, peace-loving, law-respecting person here.Give Peace A Chance. Destroy the Pakistani Army of Genocidal Goat-Buggers
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
you are right.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Thanks for this post.Akshay Kapoor wrote:... I know of a couple of raids by 3 Para also which I haven't mentioned here but they were again very local. Quite rough to the Paki unit that faced them but very local and completely on army initiative.
I have not come across a single instance of targeting a terrorist head quarter or launching a proper attack as a response to a terrorist attack with permission from South Block, PMO, NSA etc.......
If only our politicos-babus and link in with the Army and give official blessing to what the Army is going to do in any case. Everything else remains same. Nothing changes except we leave a hand written note "Revenge for Pathankot"
This is the low hanging 'revenge fruit' which we can grow in back yard and serve up cheap.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
>>3 Para raids
Any details?
Any details?
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Sensitive. Did quite a few things to Pakis. Wont like to mention here in case some babu/DDM sees and makes things difficult for the unit. But not strategic targets. Shallow across the LOC types. Was a local response.
Last edited by Akshay Kapoor on 18 Jan 2016 19:15, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Aditya, actually we have even left notes on occasions. But not linking it to big attacks.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Net net, needling is not good enough. We need to amputate/castrate the tie/suit jihadis Gens. And make its sure its seen by everybody.
What the army has been doing off and on , on local initiative is not enough and gets drowned in the LOC cross fire. It is seen as a intermittent local response that will change once the 'aggressive commander or unit is posted out'. Its never seen as a 'befitting reply' (to quote Rajnath Singh) to a terrorist attack. And that's because it isn't ! Local commander is communicating with his counterpart in the language he understands. If communication is effective his tenure is peaceful
As a first step we can do right away is to scale up these actions in terms of frequency, frontage and lethality. And link it to Pathankot etc. We should also start shelling across the IB. So at army level we can escalate as a policy and sustain it for some time.
But deep targeted attacks, supporting Balochis in a big way, must be done as the core focus. That will have the best results.
What the army has been doing off and on , on local initiative is not enough and gets drowned in the LOC cross fire. It is seen as a intermittent local response that will change once the 'aggressive commander or unit is posted out'. Its never seen as a 'befitting reply' (to quote Rajnath Singh) to a terrorist attack. And that's because it isn't ! Local commander is communicating with his counterpart in the language he understands. If communication is effective his tenure is peaceful
As a first step we can do right away is to scale up these actions in terms of frequency, frontage and lethality. And link it to Pathankot etc. We should also start shelling across the IB. So at army level we can escalate as a policy and sustain it for some time.
But deep targeted attacks, supporting Balochis in a big way, must be done as the core focus. That will have the best results.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Meanwhile our Prince speaks,
The Indian Express @IndianExpress
India's power has never been its military, it's come from the power of its ideas: Rahul Gandhi during interaction with Mumbai students
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
^^ Karan - remember a recent Whatsapp joke and the tagline - "Jaha Soch..."
Sorry, OT. But could not stop.
Sorry, OT. But could not stop.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
2 paraphrase shivji:
Jo Dilli mein gandoo woh Mumbai mein bhi gandoo
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Cross Posting from Intelligence thread...
Good Read... i hope a lot has changed by now from below. Surprised to read Navy dont have any cold start type doctrine... or some quick action strategy to punish Pak
Austin wrote:Why India didn't strike Pakistan after 26/11
Good Read... i hope a lot has changed by now from below. Surprised to read Navy dont have any cold start type doctrine... or some quick action strategy to punish Pak
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
^^^
So,
Option 1 - we destroyed our covert capability from Ik Gujral (Morarji also) onwards and now we say we have no covert capability
Options 2,3,4 - we are worried about collateral damage. What about our civilians in 26/11 and before and after. So Paki 'civilians' are more important than ours
Option 5 - We have a tiny defence (@ 2% of GDP when even Germany spends that much and US, Saudi, Paki and Chinese spend up to 3 times that) budget and refuse to build conventional capability and then say we have none. So lets do nothing.
The crux of the matter is that the politcal and bureacratic elite protect themselves by security cocoons and don't identify with the rest of India. I said this to a Cong MP once and she agreed. Ex Mayor of Bangalore too. So country be damned. We will do nothing.
Lage raho munna bhai
So,
Option 1 - we destroyed our covert capability from Ik Gujral (Morarji also) onwards and now we say we have no covert capability
Options 2,3,4 - we are worried about collateral damage. What about our civilians in 26/11 and before and after. So Paki 'civilians' are more important than ours
Option 5 - We have a tiny defence (@ 2% of GDP when even Germany spends that much and US, Saudi, Paki and Chinese spend up to 3 times that) budget and refuse to build conventional capability and then say we have none. So lets do nothing.
The crux of the matter is that the politcal and bureacratic elite protect themselves by security cocoons and don't identify with the rest of India. I said this to a Cong MP once and she agreed. Ex Mayor of Bangalore too. So country be damned. We will do nothing.
Lage raho munna bhai
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Bigger issue is the knowing the precise location.Akshay Kapoor wrote:....
Options 2,3,4 - we are worried about collateral damage.
...ai
On TV one panelist says that they also keep changing the location of the camps.
...aside from the HQ in muridke of purse
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
sure, but we could have hit a couple of known Div or Bde HQs. And Mudrike. It was'nt a quetsion of punishing the people directly responsible, it was question of imposing costs. That we have never done.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
My point is yeh sab analysis hawa mein hai. We lack the will to do it and will always find excuses not to respond rather than find reasons for responding. Its a mind set issue.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
I think that's the part that will change now.. that what we have, becomes operational. There is a lot of focus on that in this GOI. Hopefully our ammo-service status becomes ok.Akshay Kapoor wrote:Option 5 - We have a tiny defence (@ 2% of GDP when even Germany spends that much and US, Saudi, Paki and Chinese spend up to 3 times that) budget and refuse to build conventional capability and then say we have none. So lets do nothing.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
If the graphic above is true, then retaliation should have hit some static physical asset that was well known. Retaliation in a language that the Pakistani establishment understood was a must. Even a conventional defensive battle is very difficult to wage (as opposed to being an aggressor), we are defensive even in these non-conventional fights! Its sickening.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
By ex-co 21 sf, col subin balakrishnan
6 December 2014 at 13:06 ·
Yet another terrorist attack in Kashmir. Yet another series of body bags wrapped in the tricolor. Yet another set of widowed women and bewildered orphaned children looking on as the somber funeral, with full military honours begin. Yet another series of rhetoric from the political class, threatening response.
We tried talking to them, we tried extending our hand of friendship. We tried ignoring them, we tried engaging them. We tried enhancing people to people contact, we tried internationally isolating them. So, is there really a strategy that we havent quite tried ??
Yes, there is.
Lets get this straight - Eight times out of ten, an attack orchestrated by terrorists within Kashmir can be directly traced back to a set of Paki forward posts along the LC, which actively facilitated their infiltration. That is the linkage to the sudden spurts of ceasefire violations along the LC. That is the pattern. Every single time.
The day an attack takes place, those particular Paki posts through which the infiltration was allowed to happen should be pulverised; reduced to rubble. They should simply not allowed to remain on the face of the earth. That is the price that they should be made to pay. That message once consistently delivered shall be abundantly clear, in a language they understand. We have the resources, we have the wherewithal. All that is missing is the political will to be steadfast in its application.
The nay-sayers shall warn of matters escalating rapidly out of control. We shall be reminded of the nuclear brinkmanship that this could result in. Well, if it does, so be it. Our response has to be calibrated to pulverising and reducing to dust that specific border post at the local level only. If the Pakis raise the stakes, I have no doubt we have the capacity to meet that too.
The fight has to be taken to the enemy camp. We cannot afford any more to let the Pakis play their dirty lil games in our front yard. All the other engagements and initiatives at the political, diplomatic and economic levels while happening concurrently, should be without prejudice to consistent application of this response mechanism.
This is something that has not been consistently tried. I believe it is time to decisively change the contours of this nonsense.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
^well well, Here is another setup in the ladder that reduces the chance of nuclear fallout...nice
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Gen V.K. Singh is there (even if as MoS with independent charge). Surely he would know all about this.atamjeetsingh wrote:One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.
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Yes we need more ex-defense personnels in politics. The way he managed the Yemen resuce utilizing the resources present was really a commendable job. If it was done by any other Nation's politician he would have been made a super hero by our MSM.Kashi wrote:Gen V.K. Singh is there (even if as MoS with independent charge). Surely he would know all about this.atamjeetsingh wrote:One thing comes to my mind is more and more defense personnel's should consider joining politics after their forces career. At least one ex defense member should be in cabinet who can understand the capabilities and resources required to give a solid jhapad.
Right now I doubt his inputs are taken regarding security issues, maybe to give Gen Suhag freedom to operate.
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Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
We should invent some excuses to disputify the IB. Especially the border around pakjab. This will sh*t scare bakis from upping the ante as it could possibly result into full blown war which they are sure to lose. Currently the only fear they have from war is that they might lose some territory in Kashmir which is not really dear to pakjabi faujis as the border of pakjab. They don't care for the loss of lives anyways.
At least just to relish the dance of the monkey when it's as* is on fire, this is option is worth a try.
At least just to relish the dance of the monkey when it's as* is on fire, this is option is worth a try.
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
An example of how its done
SAS team dressed in Burkha's take down ISIS Commander in the middle of Raqqa (ISIS Capital)
http://sofrep.com/46819/british-special ... adi-chief/
SAS team dressed in Burkha's take down ISIS Commander in the middle of Raqqa (ISIS Capital)
http://sofrep.com/46819/british-special ... adi-chief/
Re: India's Retaliation Options to significant terrorist str
Every terrorist caught alive must have his legal paperworks in order i.e. going to town demanding paperwork for terrorists that cross over.
This should be the first step at every meeting, especially ones that demand equal equal treatment. After all, the Paki jihadi army i.e. state actors can not control terrorists within anyways.
This should be the first step at every meeting, especially ones that demand equal equal treatment. After all, the Paki jihadi army i.e. state actors can not control terrorists within anyways.