Small Arms Thread

[Yagnasri]

With a thousand of them in the border, we could have taken revenge for Patankot by now.

[Thakur_B]

Why cant our private Industry be allowed to manufacture those along with Ammunition?

They have been allowed, for donkey years now. Punj Lloyd has been hawking Gepard Lynx for 6-7 years in defexpos.
http://www.punjlloyd.com/defence/small- ... er-weapons

Several companies at one point acquired small arms licenses including L&T, but due to multitude of reasons they let it go.
From 2006 when L&T acquired small arms licenses.
http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/dec/04lnt.htm
The trouble is, zero innovation and zero incentives for innovation.

[Manish_P]

@ rkhanna

Not the Barret.

Seems to be the Finnish Sako TRG M10 Sniper Rifle... the magazine well is quite distinctive

Sako TRG M10

[shiv]

Several companies at one point acquired small arms licenses including L&T, but due to multitude of reasons they let it go.
From 2006 when L&T acquired small arms licenses.
http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/dec/04lnt.htm
The trouble is, zero innovation and zero incentives for innovation.

As far as I know private companies in India simply cannot make small arms because the law prevents any non government company from making them. Unless the law is changed it is not going to happen.

"Incentives for innovation" in small arms needs a market. Indian gun laws means the only "market" is armed forces.

[Thakur_B]

Several companies at one point acquired small arms licenses including L&T, but due to multitude of reasons they let it go.
From 2006 when L&T acquired small arms licenses.
http://www.rediff.com/money/2006/dec/04lnt.htm
The trouble is, zero innovation and zero incentives for innovation.

As far as I know private companies in India simply cannot make small arms because the law prevents any non government company from making them. Unless the law is changed it is not going to happen.

"Incentives for innovation" in small arms needs a market. Indian gun laws means the only "market" is armed forces.

Not really. The abovesaid companies acquired licenses to make small arms.

From 2011
http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/article- ... 86267.html

On 16 March, Mint had reported that the government and industry had been discussing ways of opening up the small arms market to the private industry. Weapons such as pistols, assault rifles, carbines and machine guns that are carried by infantry soldiers are called small arms. Currently, only the government-owned Ordnance Factory Board’s units in Ichhapore and Kanpur manufacture small arms for local use and exports. The “government of India has in the past demonstrated some openness to private sector participation in arms manufacture. Since 2001, four firms in the private sector, namely Max Aerospace and Aviation Ltd, Bharat Forge Ltd, Larsen and Toubro Ltd, and Punj Lloyd Ltd were issued licences to manufacture arms and ammunition. Most of these licences have since lapsed as of date”, the report cited above said.

[Yagnasri]

This is a long-awaited step. I heard this talk in Bangalore almost 5 years back in an army club.

[Karan M]

First time i am seeing this

Barretta 50Cal? From the recent incident

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/com ... d503447376

Also on one of the pakdef fora there is a picture of a NSG trouper with what looks like a SPAS15 Automatic Shotgun

The muzzle brake is nowhere near heavy enough for a 50 cal. As I posted before, its probably an Israeli 0.338 DAN sniper rifle.

[Karan M]

Manish, check this out. Looks like the DAN to me.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-n3_Jakkakf4/ ... 1600/4.JPG

Edit: I think you may be right, both the magazine and butt stock into the shoulder match the Finnish rifle better..?

[Karan M]

The scope is the other interesting part, looks like a LRF+ballistic computer on the scope..

[Thakur_B]

Cross posting from IA thread.

^^^M4 is a big hit with SF.

Apart from the conventional layout, ease of modifications and a more reasonable price tag, I fail to see any advantage that an M4 might have over the plethora of weapons in Indian service like the SiGs, Tavors, SCARs, barring INSAS and AKM. Haven't seen more than a handful of pictures of M4 in action. Again, those have been very vanilla M4's in use.

[vaibhav.n]

The NSG sniper detachment uses a Barrett M98 bravo in .338.

The SF guys on the detachment do less than 1 inch 5 round groups.

[Manish_P]

@ Vaibhav.n

Yes. It probably is the Barrett 98 Bravo (in .338 Lapua) with BORS programmable ballistic computer mated to the telescopic sights.

Thanks.

[SaiK]

can someone name the weapons in these pics?.. some of them are well known









@shivaroor tweets

[morem]

can someone name the weapons in these pics?.. some of them are well known



@shivaroor tweets

Probably the FAMAS rfile and the FN Minimi machine gun

[Thakur_B]

MCIWS with folding stock displayed at Indian Science Congress Mysuru. Pic courtesy DRDO.
The above clears the doubts whether the MCIWS is derived from the M-16 family with buffer spring in stock.

*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62*61-62

[Thakur_B]

As per Saurav Jha, ARDE is going to unveil it's LMG soon and the ARDE believes the JVPC/Milaap/MSMC is ready.

[member_29294]

As per Saurav Jha, ARDE is going to unveil it's LMG soon and the ARDE believes the JVPC/Milaap/MSMC is ready.

Is this like what Excalibur was the to the INSAS, or something completely new?

[member_22539]

^Completely new and unrelated to INSAS. In fact it is for the 7.62 NATO round used in the Bren the IA currently uses. Good stopping power and range.

[Thakur_B]

As per Saurav Jha, ARDE is going to unveil it's LMG soon and the ARDE believes the JVPC/Milaap/MSMC is ready.

Is this like what Excalibur was the to the INSAS, or something completely new?

Probably gonna be a magazine fed LMG on the lines of insas LMG and not a belt fed one.

[rohitvats]

Cross posting from IA thread.

^^^M4 is a big hit with SF.

Apart from the conventional layout, ease of modifications and a more reasonable price tag, I fail to see any advantage that an M4 might have over the plethora of weapons in Indian service like the SiGs, Tavors, SCARs, barring INSAS and AKM. Haven't seen more than a handful of pictures of M4 in action. Again, those have been very vanilla M4's in use.

Something to do with ease of handling - it seems to give a wee bit better aim and shoot capability to the user.

[Viv S]

Soldiers Modify INSAS as They Await Replacements

By PTI

NEW DELHI: As the army works on its much-delayed programme to replace INSAS rifles, soldiers have come out with innovative ways to reduce overall length and weight of the existing weapons so as to lessen fatigue and enhance accuracy, besides enabling them to fire corner shots.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi was impressed with the innovation and even gave an "innovation certificate" to the person who did it.

Though the army remained tightlipped about who the innovator was and the details, sources said modified INSAS/AK-47 rifle for counter terrorist operations has been designed to reduce overall length and weight of existing weapons so as to reduce fatigue and enhance accuracy of the weapon by aligning the centre of gravity during its employment in counter insurgency operations.

"The modification of INSAS/AK-47 weapon has been done to include corner shot capability. The modified weapon is more stable while firing, compact, easy to carry and has better accuracy," the sources said.

Corner shot guns allow soldiers to shoot around the corner, without endangering the shooter. Corner shot guns usually have a camera and a video monitor for the shooter to see around the corner.

The Army had last year scrapped a four-year-old tender for purchasing 1.8 lakh multi-calibre weapons to replace INSAS, which was inducted in the 1990s.

Army had initially wanted a rifle with interchangeable barrels firing different calibres -- the 5.56-mm INSAS round and the 7.62-mm AK-47 round.

That was because troops use AK-47s in counter-insurgency operations, while the INSAS rifles are issued for peace stations.

However, none of the firms which had pitched for the contract could satisfy the army, with sources saying the General Staff Qualitative Requirements were far too ambitious.

The bidders only had prototypes and no guns that were in service.

The scrapping of the programme is a setback to the army's modernisation plans. Army chief Gen Dalbir Singh Suhag had last year, and this year also, identified assault rifles as one of 20 "critical requirements" which included bulletproof jackets and artillery guns.

[Thakur_B]

^^ What kind of retarded article is that?

[member_29294]

Probably gonna be a magazine fed LMG on the lines of insas LMG and not a belt fed one.

^Completely new and unrelated to INSAS. In fact it is for the 7.62 NATO round used in the Bren the IA currently uses. Good stopping power and range.

Good news then, makes me happy to hear. If trials are successful, I suppose we could be seeing such a makeup by 2020:

Carbines - MSMC
Assault Rifles - MCIWS
ARVDE LMG - LMG
??? - Sniper Rifles

Hopefully we will see the last major piece of IA modern small arms requirements soon with an indigenous Sniper Rifle, and we won't have to conduct any more of those silly foreign tenders.

[SaiK]

^^ What kind of retarded article is that?

yawn inspired indeed

[Thakur_B]

Probably gonna be a magazine fed LMG on the lines of insas LMG and not a belt fed one.

^Completely new and unrelated to INSAS. In fact it is for the 7.62 NATO round used in the Bren the IA currently uses. Good stopping power and range.

Good news then, makes me happy to hear. If trials are successful, I suppose we could be seeing such a makeup by 2020:

Carbines - MSMC
Assault Rifles - MCIWS
ARVDE LMG - LMG
??? - Sniper Rifles

Hopefully we will see the last major piece of IA modern small arms requirements soon with an indigenous Sniper Rifle, and we won't have to conduct any more of those silly foreign tenders.

I doubt if MCMC will be the defacto carbine. It's rather impractical for the troops to carry one more ammo type into war. The carbine would have to be a 5.56x45 mm gun or none. MSMC would at best be useful for guard duties, tankers, pilots, drivers and for police.

[member_29294]

I doubt if MCMC will be the defacto carbine. It's rather impractical for the troops to carry one more ammo type into war. The carbine would have to be a 5.56x45 mm gun or none. MSMC would at best be useful for guard duties, tankers, pilots, drivers and for police.

The other two popular guns in this class are the Uzi and MP5, both of which use 9mm, which is the same used on handguns. I am sure the MSMC could be modified to accommodate 9mm, but OFB claims that their rounds have superior stopping power and are bit fit for the gun, hence the specialty cartridge.

India is more than a large enough user to adopt their own cartridge standards like Chine and Russians do. The popular FN Five Seven and P90 both use a specialty cartridge as well, and they are popular platforms despite the cartridge hassle.

[Kakkaji]

Any news on Excalibur? The earlier articles said a decision will be made in January.

[Thakur_B]

I doubt if MCMC will be the defacto carbine. It's rather impractical for the troops to carry one more ammo type into war. The carbine would have to be a 5.56x45 mm gun or none. MSMC would at best be useful for guard duties, tankers, pilots, drivers and for police.

The other two popular guns in this class are the Uzi and MP5, both of which use 9mm, which is the same used on handguns. I am sure the MSMC could be modified to accommodate 9mm, but OFB claims that their rounds have superior stopping power and are bit fit for the gun, hence the specialty cartridge.

India is more than a large enough user to adopt their own cartridge standards like Chine and Russians do. The popular FN Five Seven and P90 both use a specialty cartridge as well, and they are popular platforms despite the cartridge hassle.

Sure. I am not saying that it doesn't have a place, but it would be restricted to specialised roles and at best be used wherever Uzi and mp5 are used..

[member_20067]

Even the foren maal is becoming a butt of joke

Heckler & Koch G36: the rifle held in all the wrong places

http://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36-t ... a-18402772

Heckler & Koch G36: the rifle held in all the wrong places
Is it the plastic barrel holder? Or the tin cover? These questions are at the center of a hot debate surrounding "serious faults" with the Bundeswehr's favorite gun. DW leads you through the storm that is the HK G36.

It all started back in 2010, on Good Friday, following a Taliban ambush just outside German ISAF headquarters in Kunduz, northern Afghanistan. Thirty-two Bundeswehr paratroopers, cut off from the rest of their division, were plunged in a completely unexpected, nine-hour struggle of life and death .
During the firefight , the rifles being used by the paratroopers overheated, forcing them to retreat, and on the way back to Kunduz, an armored vehicle that had been dispatched rode over a landmine. The April 2, 2010 attack cost the lives of three German soldiers, and it initiated a debate that reached its climax this Wednesday, over five years later, concerning the Heckler & Koch G36 assault rifle.
The lightweight assault rifle is used daily around the world, from Spain to Brazil and Indonesia, and has been part of operations that include the British SAS in Iraq and everyday security at the San Francisco Police Department, to name only a few. For almost two decades now, it has been the standard infantry service weapon of the German military; and all this time, it has had "serious faults," the federal defense minister, Ursula von der Leyen, has now confirmed.
The accuracy degradation can reach 0.5 meters at a range of 200 meters, and 6 meters at a range of 500 meters
The accuracy degradation can reach 0.5 meters at a range of 200 meters, and 6 meters at a range of 500 meters
Cherry-hot barrel
When the G36 overheats, either because of the temperature it finds itself in or because of constant, rapid fire, the precision and accuracy of the rifle suffer. The reason for this, according to the Defense Ministry, is that the rifle's barrel holder is made of a composite polymer that - even at a temperature as low as 23 degrees Celsius - softens and is no longer able to hold the barrel straight. Many of the components of the rifle are made of plastic, which account for its lighter weight when compared to its counterparts, such as the French FAMAS F1 or the American Colt AR-15.
A strictly classified series of tests conducted over the past months by three different applied science organizations, two Bundeswehr-related and one independent, was presented to von der Leyen at the end of March. The results, which were leaked to Reuters and select German media outlets, raised eyebrows well beyond the Defense Ministry.
All it takes is two magazines (60 rounds of ammunition) to heat up the barrel to an extent that "serious accuracy degradation" occurs, the researchers found. At this point, the accuracy degradation can be as severe as 50 centimeters at a range of 200 meters, and a full 6 meters at a range of 500 meters.
"The Heckler & Koch G36 has no future in the German army in its current state of construction," von der Leyen said in front of dozens of journalists following a special convention of the parliamentary committee on Wednesday.
'Wrong, irrelevant and possibly illegal'
Heckler & Koch, meanwhile, which wasn't involved in the tests, has its own ideas about why they produced the results they did; the company vehemently rejects all claims that the plastic barrel holder was responsible for any accuracy degradation, blaming the overheating on the tin protective covering applied to the barrel by the Bundeswehr before use in the field.
"H&K views any negative statements with regard to the accuracy [of the G36] as factually incorrect, irrelevant and possibly illegal," says a statement from Germany's largest firearm supplier, which has played a substantial role in making the Federal Republic the world's third largest weapons exporter.
"Decades of use by the Bundeswehr validate that the G36 was - and continues to be - fully operational," the statement continues.
H&K refers in its statement to the fact that the G36 was designed for use back in 1996, and that the Bundeswehr checks each individual shipment of the assault rifle before clearing them for use in training and combat. At present, there is a contingent of 167,000 G36 rifles in the Bundeswehr arsenal, used for years in "myriad different operational environments."
Even the temperature outside - in particular high humidity - can adversely affect the accuracy of the G36
Even the temperature outside - in particular high humidity - can adversely affect the accuracy of the G36
Convertible or minivan?
Those differing "operational environments" are precisely the problem when it comes to the G36, not the rifle itself, say defense and weapons commentators in and outside of Germany.
"There is absolutely nothing wrong with this rifle," said Heinz Schulte, former Jane's Defence Weekly correspondent who now oversees the Griephan international security publication, in an interview with DW.
"The debate going on right now about the 'technical faults' of the G36 is frightfully misinformed," said Schulte, with reference to the fact that the assault rifle was designed, constructed and sold to the Bundeswehr at a time when soldiers engaging in suspended firefights was inconceivable.
"This is comparable to a young man who, as a bachelor, bought a two-seater convertible and now complains that he has a family and they don't all fit into that car!"
Schulte was also skeptical that the G36 would be completely phased out, arguing that a more sensible option would be to update the assault rifle and keep it for operations in which suspended fire is highly unlikely.
"If you fire a machine gun, anybody with any technological sense knows that the barrel has to be changed because the friction of rapid fire makes it too hot . With an assault rifle like the G36, you can't change the barrel, so making a gun like this the standard issue for all military scenarios is simply old thinking."
The Good Friday ambush back in 2010, the starting point for the current debate, led to days of mourning at home
The Good Friday ambush back in 2010, the starting point for the current debate, led to days of mourning at home
Will the German army jump to a different company for its new rifle? No, said Schulte, explaining there will most likely be a mix of different guns that do justice to the many scenarios in which Bundeswehr soldiers currently find themselves in.
For paratroopers such as those who got caught in the Good Friday ambush in 2010, there will most likely be two options, both Heckler & Koch, said Schulte:
"For situations where intensive fire is needed, it will either be the HK 416 or HK 417, depending on the caliber needed."

[Thakur_B]

The Germans being Germans are being too harsh on mechanical failures on G36. Rifles aren't made for continuous fire, using them so will wreck havoc on them.

[ramana]

Regardless, could IA face similar situation using the INSAS in a firefight with terrorists?
The H&K G36 barrel tilt is being blamed on the plastic stock.

I guess INSAS doesn't have that type of stock?

[Thakur_B]

Regardless, could IA face similar situation using the INSAS in a firefight with terrorists?
The H&K G36 barrel tilt is being blamed on the plastic stock.

I guess INSAS doesn't have that type of stock?

From most accounts, INSAS LMG has not held up well in fire fights. Thank goodness there was no full auto mode in the rifle variant otherwise that would have been another grievance against it. But don't worry, full auto feature in Excalibur will add that to the complaint list.

[shiv]

From most accounts, INSAS LMG has not held up well in fire fights.

INSAS has been there long enough for most of us who are interested to have read and heard both sides of the story. Most interested people have heard all the complaints against INSAS including this one, and have also heard the opposite where there are some who have expressed satisfaction. We also know that the complaints outnumber the others by a huge margin.

I have heard no soldier from any nation claim that his weapon is better or more reliable in a firefight than the Kalashnikov.

We all also know that no imported weapon met the Indian Army's requirements fully.

Would you be able to comment on why everyone is not simply adopting a variant of the Kalashnikov? Constant repetition of the criticism of INSAS for 16 years is one thing but I think we need to graduate to a higher level. Informed comments would be more welcome on a site like BRF where we also get people who would like to know which weapons are so good that no one is unhappy. A short essay on the various uses of a weapon and what sizes/types/calibers and types come in handy in different situations and what weapons are good "by all accounts" would be better appreciated than the day in day out whinery about how bad the INSAS is. We know that and it is awful to open a thread and find a comment that adds nothing more than what has been repeated a million times.

[ArmenT]

^^^^
Kalashnikovs are also made of varying quality, depending on who is making them. In fact, some models are known to overheat and quit working way before other rifles. For instance, I've seen footage of a Romanian made AK quit working after shooting about 260 rounds when it jammed. Cause of failure was that the barrel overheated and began to droop and caused the bolt to not go all the way and the barrel walked out. The tester did mention that if that bolt hadn't jammed, the barrel was about to go anyway because after the gun cooled, you could see through the bore and see that it was still bent. The gun was not working even after it cooled back to room temperature.

On the other hand, an experienced gunsmith with him managed to fix it and put it back to working condition using only a tree and a trailer hitch, so there is something to be said about the serviceability of the rifle!

[Aditya G]

Which all ak-47 and akm variants do we operate?

There is also an ofb copy ... Plus we imported from Bulgaria?

[Gyan]

All the rifles with plastic/carbon fibre receiver/butt stock have failed or have got bad reports. The Import lobby failed to foist ARX-160 which is 20 times the cost of INSAS on India. Excalibur is good interim solution till MCIWS is produced but both of them have lot of enemies in import lobby. One can google any rifle and there will be bitching about it on various forums.

[Thakur_B]

From most accounts, INSAS LMG has not held up well in fire fights.

Would you be able to comment on why everyone is not simply adopting a variant of the Kalashnikov?

Almost all modern firearms can trace their lineage to AKM, AR-15, AR-18 and Fn FAL. Plenty of countries have made derivatives of AKMs, or atleast weapons adopting the basic philosophy around it when they set out to develop their first/current generation guns that were not AKMs.

Direct derivatives
Israel - Galil
Poland - Beryl Wz 96
China - Type 81
India - INSAS

Inspired by AKMs
Belgium - Fn FNC
Switzerland - Sig 550 series
South Korea - K2

Most of the above guns have been domestic and export successes. I'd rate INSAS as a reasonably successful product despite being disaster of a project. The most vocal complaint about INSAS is bad build quality and jamming in cold weather. The first one can be fixed, the second one takes a bit of experience.

In extreme cold weather, the lube becomes waxy/gummy, the springs become stiff, when taking the rifle from inside the tent to outdoors, condensation occurs inside the gas tube which turns to ice right away jamming up the mechanism. When coupled with high altitude, you have a problem with the gas pressure in the gas tube dropping too fast before the action gets cycled. Its not an easy problem to fix in a gun. A large number of guns face it. Temporary fixes include graphite powder used as lube, keeping a round chambered which will set all icing lose when fired, leaving guns out in the cold so that no condensation occurs.

As far as the LMG variant of INSAS is concerned, the shortcomings in barrel changing made it an underperformer from the day 1. No change of barrel meant the LMG was useless after firing 8-10 mags till it cooled down.

what weapons are good "by all accounts" would be better appreciated than the day in day out whinery about how bad the INSAS is

SCAR H/L, HK416/417 and IMI Tavor family have gained quite a reputation over the past decade with large number of special forces adopting them worldwide. The three of them are also super expensive.

[rohitvats]

INSAS has been there long enough for most of us who are interested to have read and heard both sides of the story.<SNIP>

Shiv, while I don't know the specifics, let me quote General VK Singh from his autobiography. He says INSAS is a good rifle but suffers from small issues which impact the soldier on the ground. And his grouse against DRDO is that they've never attempted to solve army's issues. He says R&D establishment does not want to work on improving an existing system but ask for newer projects as that is how you get the funding.

[shiv]

INSAS has been there long enough for most of us who are interested to have read and heard both sides of the story.<SNIP>

Shiv, while I don't know the specifics, let me quote General VK Singh from his autobiography. He says INSAS is a good rifle but suffers from small issues which impact the soldier on the ground. And his grouse against DRDO is that they've never attempted to solve army's issues. He says R&D establishment does not want to work on improving an existing system but ask for newer projects as that is how you get the funding.

Rohit, this is yet another thing that many of us have heard about for a long time and it raises a question - I will try and state this in a generic fashion

1. Equipment X is made by Indian agency
2. Armed Force has complaints about equipment X and says that the agency making that item is not interested in solving the specific issues faced
3. Manufacturing agencies accuse armed force of asking for the unacheivable

Now, in good faith, assume that both the forces and the agency are telling the truth. I think we need to know what that "truth" might be. The truth might be that the manufacturing agency does not have the technical skill to make the modification, or that the modification does not make economic sense due to numbers or time involved or some other reason.

What I am getting at is that the army and air force simply must have trained engineers embedded within the manufacturing agency. The problem here is that the armed forces people are disciplined and stick to what they say. PSU staff are not always like that. This boils down to a management issue. There is no other way of making the armed force see what the manufacturer is capable of and letting the manufacturer understand what the armed force wants. That means recruiting and deputing a cadre of armed forces people who will be able to do this job. The navy has "Naval Architecture" in civilian colleges. The Army and Air Force have no equivalent

Ultimately the hardware produced is going to be a compromise between need and manufacturing capability, but if all parties know that from the outset it will not be necessary to howl and have blame games.

[Karan M]

+100 Shiv.

Meanwhile,

ARDE MCIWS and Cornershot and other systems- including a CQB Carbine variant, presumably