Indian Military Helicopters

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Jan 2016 09:27

deejay wrote:Kakkaji, you are seriously under estimating the demand for helicopters in India and the need for the machine. Just a look at IAF will tell you that today we have more helicopter units than active fighter sqns. Ten years ago, this was not so. IA and IN have their own on shore requirements which are growing and additionally IN has multiple off shore requirements.

All initial helicopter training for the IAF, IA and IN today is on Chetak / Cheetah and this alone is about 25 -30 machines just for HTS. Other training bases will also convert.

The para military is eager to strengthen its air arm and I see an eager curiosity from BSF, ITBP, etc.

Essentially, a light helicopter, made in India, opens up a huge possibility across the country since I am sure the price will also be good for the Indian market. Kamov has 200 orders confirmed but beyond that it is up to HAL to market and sell LUH.

If HAL moves well, then it can also tap into the civilian market where the line could be bigger.

*cough cough* coast guard, *cough* ONGC, *Ackchoo* police forces, *snif snif* border guards, *ahem* NCC, *spit* disaster relief agencies, .....

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jan 2016 09:36

^ ... State Govts ... the list is long janaab. Though for Off Shore, single engine helicopter for Civil Avaition may not cut ice with DGCA and ONGC. This is one reason I liked Indranil's suggestion of a twin engined LUH.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 20 Jan 2016 11:31

deejay wrote:^ ... State Govts ... the list is long janaab. Though for Off Shore, single engine helicopter for Civil Avaition may not cut ice with DGCA and ONGC. This is one reason I liked Indranil's suggestion of a twin engined LUH.

tHe dauphin is a luh that had two engines strapped on and is currently doing ongc duty. I would go so far as saying just strap on some floats. if the chetaks can serve everything from navy, coastguard to army, then one engine is not any more of a new hazard for ongc. you can put a sailer in it on sea, you can put a oil driller too.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Jan 2016 12:57

Ongc duty is civvie duty: the rules are different for this application.

We are fine with faujis flying in single engine in 30 yr choppers

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jan 2016 13:20

[quote="agupta"I hope this does not turn out to be LCA-IJT-HTT40 redux. It can be argued MoD should've put their foot down and said "Focus on delivering what you've signed up for already.[/quote]

Agree!! Same concerns here. Fingers crossed.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jan 2016 14:46

ramana wrote:Are LUH and Kamov KA 226 helicopter competitors?

I thought the Kamov has a multirole module which is tailored for mountains.
LUH can be used everywhere lese.

I doubt it ramana

I think we have got used to such small numbers that we are unable to imagine that we need numbers like US, Russia China for our size of country. Both will be needed.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Jan 2016 18:47

shiv wrote:I doubt it ramana

I think we have got used to such small numbers that we are unable to imagine that we need numbers like US, Russia China for our size of country. Both will be needed.

Hardly small. To date HAL has produced some 650 Cheetahs, Chetaks & Cheetals, with almost all of them delivered to the Indian military. The Russians meanwhile operate just 60 odd LUHs, the Chinese about 200 or so, though the US military has well over 600 LUHs.

In fact, when it comes to rotor wing aircraft, India's existing net airlift capability is second only to the US. Given its mediocre order book, getting a 200 unit order from India, without even having to compete with the EC & Bell entries, is huge win for Kamov.

And with the LUH starting off with handicap, it'll never achieve the economies-of-scale required to gain a proper leg up over its peers in any competitive export market. The now bolstered Ka-226 however can perhaps start eyeing the Bell/Airbus/AW dominated civilian market.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 21 Jan 2016 18:55

The Sarang team at BIAS 2016

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 Jan 2016 22:06

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 23 Jan 2016 23:58

Aeromag HAL 75 years special

http://www.aeromag.in/sites/default/files/HAL_75.pdf

ALH- 205nos by November2015 production @20-24/year.

Cheetal-15nos produced.

355 Chetak produced

276 Cheetah produced.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 24 Jan 2016 00:35

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Jan 2016 09:07

Viv S wrote: In fact, when it comes to rotor wing aircraft, India's existing net airlift capability is second only to the US. Given its mediocre order book, getting a 200 unit order from India, without even having to compete with the EC & Bell entries, is huge win for Kamov.

Here is a table of countries with numbers of heliports and helicopters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _heliports

India is 17th behind Switzerland and Mexico.

We have produced 600 helos in 50 years.

Both figures are too too low for a country India's size.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 24 Jan 2016 11:33

shiv wrote:
We have produced 600 helos in 50 years.

You mean 850, as per the post by sankum above.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Jan 2016 21:09

shiv wrote:Here is a table of countries with numbers of heliports and helicopters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... _heliports

India is 17th behind Switzerland and Mexico.

We have produced 600 helos in 50 years.

Both figures are too too low for a country India's size.

These are civilian markets. Its not an easy thing to break into a segment where the established players (Bell/Airbus/AgustaWestland) have the advantage of scale, outreach and reputation.

Indian military orders would have helped achieve scale but we've considerately decided to split that pie with the Russians, and give the Ka-226 an equivalent (if not better) shot at the big leagues.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Jan 2016 21:15

Chandigarh: An agreement between Airbus Group and Mahindra for manufacture of helicopters and three MoUs under the 'Smart City' theme were among the 16 pacts signed between India and France on Sunday. - IBN Live

Wonderful. Do we intend to operate three types of light helicopters (LUH, Ka-226, Fennec) or two types of heavy lifters (S-70, NH-90)?

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 24 Jan 2016 23:03

^ Hopefully Fennec would be made by a private player in that case.

Having a single state-run monopoly on helicopters is not healthy at all. Particularly for exports.

Helicopters could easily be exported the way trucks are, but only if competent private players are making them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Jan 2016 12:17

Planning to start KA 226 work this year, will also export chopper from India: Russia

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

NEW DELHI: Russia is planning to initiate work on a joint plan to produce light military choppers in India this year and has identified the helicopters for export orders as well. Sharing details of a new Indo-Russian joint venture company to produce KA 226 helicopters, a top Russian executive has also indicated that a private Indian company could also be involved in the project and would be chosen by the Indian government.

A number of technical discussions will take place and I hope that before the end of this year, work will start. The chopper utilized the best technologies available globally, including the French engines. We have had negotiations with our French partners and are satisfied are on board," Kladov said, adding that HAL (the Indian JV partner for the contract) is already license producing French chopper engines.

Rostec is also looking to jointly export military and civilian versions of the chopper from the Indian line after meeting domestic demands. "The joint agreement reads that the line will produce no less than 200 choppers. This means that 200 is a confirmed government order. We will definitely be looking at other civilian orders and international markets as well," the top executive said, adding that the chopper for be used for a variety of roles from search and rescue to medical ambulance and geo mapping.

Kladov also indicated that an Indian private company could also be brought on board for the KA 226 production as there is a provision in the joint agreement. "It is mentioned in the agreement that the Indian side will consist of HAL and another company - we don't exclude that in some part, a private Indian company could be involved. For example, it could be for certain composite elements that can be produced locally," he said.

Officials in the Indian Defence Ministry have also told ET that one or two partners from the private sector would be considered for the project but would be chosen by the government on technical and financial parameters.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 31 Jan 2016 09:14

Kladov said, adding that HAL (the Indian JV partner for the contract) is already license producing French chopper engines.

Assuming the reference is to the Ardiden engines, aren't they actually imported rather than MFG in India.

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 31 Jan 2016 09:18

Paul wrote:
Kladov said, adding that HAL (the Indian JV partner for the contract) is already license producing French chopper engines.
Assuming the reference is to the Ardiden engines, aren't they actually imported rather than MFG in India.

Typically a small number are imported and then the manufacturing starts at home. So, they are license produced I believe

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 31 Jan 2016 14:25

Any guesses?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 Jan 2016 14:51

By Feb? Feb is here. When?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Feb 2016 05:38

Viv S wrote:Any guesses?

no tell me what am I looking at
the first LUH ground test ....

I hope it is

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 02 Feb 2016 06:58

Correct. First ground test run. Picture from Dec 2014.

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 02 Feb 2016 10:51

Guys, I have a newbie question.
Saw the specs for HAL LUH and KA-226T.
HAL LUH empty weight wiki says is 1675 Kg and max take off weight as 2700 Kg with the Shakti engine (1706 hp)
KA-226T says gross weight of 3400 Kg with 2 engines each generating 650 hp, so total 1300 hp.
HUL range is 350 kms and KA-226T says 600 kms.

What am i missing here?
KA-226T specs seem so better than LUH on paper.
Is it real or plain brochuritis?

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 02 Feb 2016 11:21

vaibhav_kumar wrote: HUL range is 350 kms and KA-226T says 600 kms.

Which range are you talking about? Combat radius or ferry range?

The 600Kms value is ferry range of Ka-226T (per Kamov website) and the source of 350Kms for LUH is from Wiki page which in turn is referenced to AI-09 exhibition poster of LUH mock-up. The range number listed on the poster is '> 350Kms'. This tells me that HAL hasn't released official information about its range values.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Feb 2016 17:42

Russia completes delivery of military helicopters to India

https://www.rt.com/business/330996-indi ... ers-deals/

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has received the remaining helicopters purchased from Russia. A total of 151 military transport Mi-17V-5 helicopters were delivered as a part of the contract.

India and Russia have also started a joint project to produce up to 200 light utility multirole Ka-226T helicopters. The agreement includes servicing, repair and technical assistance. Also the IAF announced plans to purchase 48 additional Mi-17V-5s for $1.1 billion.

SidSom · Post by **SidSom** » 04 Feb 2016 21:49

Dont know if this has been posted before...... This is what we are getting into.

http://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet ... 49/?no-ist

ver wonder what it takes to become an Apache helicopter pilot? Former British Army Air Corps pilot Ed Macy gives this description in his 2009 book Apache: Inside the Cockpit of the World’s Most Deadly Fighting Machine.

As the most technically advanced helicopter in the world, the Apache AH Mk1 was also the hardest to fly…. To train each Apache pilot from scratch cost £3 million (each custom-made helmet alone had a price tag of £22,915). It took six months just to learn how to fly the machine, another six to know how to fight in it, and a final six to be passed combat ready. And that was if you were already a fully qualified, combat-trained army helicopter pilot. If you weren’t, you’d have to add four months for ground school and learning to fly fixed wing at RAF Barkston Heath, six months learning to fly helicopters at RAF Shawbury, half a year at the School of Army Aviation learning to fly tactically, and a final sixteen-week course in Survival, Evasion and Resistance to Interrogation, courtesy of the Intelligence Corps’ most vigorous training staff. Three years in total….

Flying an Apache almost always meant both hands and feet doing four different things at once. Even our eyes had to learn how to work independently of each other. A monocle sat permanently over our right iris. A dozen different instrument readings from around the cockpit were projected into it. At the flick of a button, a range of other images could also be superimposed underneath the green glow of the instrument symbology, replicating the TADS’ or PNVS’ camera images and the Longbow Radars’ targets.

The monocle left the pilot’s left eye free to look outside the cockpit, saving him the few seconds that it took to look down at the instruments and then up again…. New pilots suffered terrible headaches as the left and right eye competed for dominance. They started within minutes, long before take-off…. As the eyes adjusted over the following weeks and months the headaches took longer to set in. It was a year before mine disappeared altogether…. I once filmed my face during a sortie with a video camera as an experiment. My eyes whirled independently of each other throughout, like a man possessed.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Feb 2016 02:23

India receives final Mi-17-V5 helos, plans to order more

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2016 23:01

Kartik wrote:India receives final Mi-17-V5 helos, plans to order more

Shouldn't the order for the next 48 be given now so the line keeps going and price is under control?

If the requirement was made public in 2012 for the 48 helicopters, what have they done to negotiate or get early long lead items funded?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Feb 2016 23:13

One of the best IN dhruv pics

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 05 Feb 2016 23:54

^^ wow

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2016 03:41

stunning !

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Feb 2016 03:51

Mind blowing!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Feb 2016 05:17

Hardly any down wash.

Compare to Seahawk.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 06 Feb 2016 06:49

^^

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... _74%29.jpg

Its perspective of image which might be deciving. Look at above image, taken from same angle it would look the same.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 09 Feb 2016 17:49

Even the condition of the water surface will effect the visualization of downwash. Calm seas may not generate nearly as much froth as slightly choppy seas might for the same bird.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Feb 2016 18:59

Cross winds, size of the helo, if the helo itself is moving, height form water, lake vs. sea, ...........................

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Feb 2016 21:16

Downwash is a function of the weight of the helicopter. Greater the weight, greater the downwash.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 11 Feb 2016 22:50

Good news, if it materializes:

Indo-Russian Kamov chopper JV may rope in private players; Bharat Forge likely contender to make engines

NEW DELHI: An Indo-Russian joint venture to produce a new series of light military choppers in India is likely to rope in at least one private sector partner for the $1 billion project, with Pune based Bharat Forge emerging as a likely contender to manufacture engines.

Sources said that while several companies would be interested in partnering for the project, a probable is Bharat Forge which has proven heavy engineering and manufacturing capabilities to take on a major work share such as engine manufacturing. The engines for the Ka 226 chopper are made by France's Turbomeca which already has a partnership with HAL.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Feb 2016 23:00

Kakkaji wrote:Good news, if it materializes:

Indo-Russian Kamov chopper JV may rope in private players; Bharat Forge likely contender to make engines

Don't see how the Russians would be able to negotiate a local production agreement for a French engine. Broker perhaps, but not negotiate. As I recall, one of the main hurdles to the 'Make-in-India' aspect was that only 30% of the aircraft was of Russia-origin, requiring India to independently work with the subcontractors to the program.