Indian Army News & Discussions - 11 June 2014

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Jan 2016 21:29

General KV Krishna Rao - One of the finest we had who had 360 degree view of our security imperatives. The large scale Mechanization implemented by General Sundarji was ushered by him. Including building of new cantonment on the western border for better placement of troops and more bolder stand against the Chinese.

RIP, Sir.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jan 2016 21:57

RIP General K.V. Krishna Rao garu.
He now belongs to the ages.

K stands for Kotikalapudi.

He was my father's cousin.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 31 Jan 2016 00:04

Go safely into the beyond, Sir.

Mere words cannot be adequate enough to thank you.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 31 Jan 2016 04:06

RIP sir,
Wiki entry says his division was responsible for capture of Sylhet in '71 war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._V._Krishna_Rao

During the 1971 war, his division captured the Sylhet area and liberated north-east Bangladesh.

1. He was the governor of J&K during very tumultuous times.
2. Using "Dies" word for such fine generals is a shame. There should be some basic journalistic or at least human standards.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jan 2016 07:41

I watched the complete BSF documentary by natgeo last night and gained new insight and a lot of respect for what they do. right from wading through knee deep marshes in the indo pak border , sitting on isolated camps surrounded by salt water estuaries in the rann and patrolling in tripura with mosquito net masks on their helmets to ward off malarial mosquitoes, thick snow on the LOC, they are there...

they have single tube monocular NVS, a mix of insas and beretta rifles, 81mm mortars and satellite based video conferencing from many of the major posts, was showing the DG and his staff doing that with some other bases. the interceptor speedboats in sir creek were wide, powerful and cool. the floating border posts in sundarbans have 30 people, latest gear and 4 speedboats.

the training is 50 weeks. they showed some drills being conducted in pouring rain. the cadets did the stone faced warrior thing well.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 01 Feb 2016 00:19

ramana wrote:RIP General K.V. Krishna Rao garu.
He now belongs to the ages.

K stands for Kotikalapudi.

He was my father's cousin.

Smallish world. He was IIRC the ranking officer (Lt General) in Nagrota when my father (many year his junior) served in a different arm. He had the typical army bungalow close by where I lived, and I remember as an army brat going over to his house.

Over the years, for reasons I will not go into, our families kinda/ sorta kept in touch. My mother and sister attended his grandchild's wedding barely days ago- I was put of town. He looked very well apparently. You will of course know that the family is expecting more health related issues, again stuff I won't get into.

RIP General. Your memory is now as magical and everlasting to me as the memory of the peepul trees in Nagrota, the open air theatre, the dusty fields and the ten tonners taking us to school on bittersweet winter mornings.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 01 Feb 2016 07:06

ranjan.rao wrote:1. He was the governor of J&K during very tumultuous times.

I remember seeing that visual where he was giving a speech on the Republic Day (?) in the Bakshi stadium and a bomb went off nearby and he was calm and unflinching.

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 02 Feb 2016 00:15

Another soldier that we looked up to as a youngster has faded away. As my FIL says, old soldiers don't die they fade away. Father was posted in MRC during the 1976 reunion when the Gen was the Col. of the Regt.
Father used to send him a greeting card for the New Year and a reply was always received in his writing, regardless of the fact that he was a Gov. or a senior functionary. I think that the "mold" of these old timers does not exist any more. A pity.

May your soul rest in eternal peace! Thank you for your service to the nation and for being an outstanding example for us!

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 02 Feb 2016 01:04

RIP General K.V. Krishna Rao. May the departed soul gets moksha!

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Feb 2016 17:13

Pls Pls Watch.

TED Talk: How the Indian Army Does it.

By Capt. Raghu Raman
Former CEO,
National Intelligence Grid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ-IBRGfJyY

member_29258 · Post by **member_29258** » 02 Feb 2016 18:34

^^^ gives a nice perspective on what our forces face in such operations. If only we could make some of our Media experts understand the same. May stop them from.commenting on such ops. Then again I doubt tehy can be changed.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 03 Feb 2016 09:06

I strongly feel that apart from costly uber equipment like SPH we need massive orders for our infantry to increase their night fighting capacities. We need at least Rs 50,000 crore order spread over 5 years for Night vision & IR devices, weapon sights, BPJs, Comms. This area is facing massive neglect inspite of very urgent need.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Feb 2016 15:15

Very Sad News, but as usual Toilet has pulled 8000 dead from its Musharaf.

10 Army soldiers missing in Siachen avalanche

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 Feb 2016 20:48

A friend of a ski buddy recently survived an avalanche by using one of the 'automatically inflatable' avalanche rescue bags. Basically, a bag automatically inflates and you pop up above the ice and snow of the avalanche because you are much lighter. Could save lives.. :-(
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... che+airbag

Weighs less than 8-9 lbs.. At least a few soldiers in a patrol could be equipped by such bags and could then dig out their comrades. All the soldiers in that area must have an avalanche beacon.

There are some reports that say the soldiers were in their post when hit by the avalanche (not patrolling).

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 04 Feb 2016 01:19

This doesnt bode well. its been about 10 hours since it was reported in media.

@ sudeepj : the bags might not work on the glacier where there are gayari type massive incidents.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 04 Feb 2016 03:20

nirav wrote:This doesnt bode well. its been about 10 hours since it was reported in media.

@ sudeepj : the bags might not work on the glacier where there are gayari type massive incidents.

Not in Gyari type incidents.. but those are relatively rare. Smaller avalanches are much more common and if you are in its path, pretty deadly.

Added later. Pretty interesting read.

https://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-av ... oser-truth

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Feb 2016 12:23

X Posted from the Islamism thread and Internal Security thread (Hat Tip Jhujar).

What manner of beastie be a “Hindu who practises Isalm”

Anyway whatever the answer may be; an elite public school education at Doon School, parent who retired as a Major General in the Indian Army and a working carreer with a flock of MNC’s did not dull the urge, which appears to have been brought on by the exposure to Mohammaddenism, to associate with Mohammadden Terrorists and aspire to be one :

Son of ex-Major General held in Goa for ‘terror links’

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Feb 2016 18:03

Aditya_V wrote:Very Sad News, but as usual Toilet has pulled 8000 dead from its Musharaf.

10 Army soldiers missing in Siachen avalanche

Sad.. can't we get a GPS or some device emitting from them? targetted digging can happen. we must have them.

specially designed snow digging/blower machine is needed.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 04 Feb 2016 19:35

SaiK saar, the post itself was buried under the snow, and I am sure the Army has coordinates of all its posts for such eventualities. In any case, there was a helipad there too, so the AF will also have the data. So yes, they will target that precise spot for digging, and they have been using some digging equipment to get there fast. But we must keep in mind the risks involved, as the collapsed ice itself may not be stable, and digging needs to be done so as to not cause more movements. And with the extreme winter temps, starting the work in the morning will take time as the previous day's digs would have frozen completely, so all this adds to the amount of time they have to dig everyday. I am still hoping for a miracle, fingers crossed.

Soldiers trapped in Siachen presumed dead - Dinakar Peri, The Hindu, Updated: February 4, 2016 19:23 IST

The Army and Air Force have intensified rescue efforts to locate the ten missing soldiers on the Siachen glacier who are buried under snow. However officials said the soldiers are presumed dead given the extreme conditions.

“Rescue teams are braving adverse weather and effects of rarified atmosphere to locate and rescue survivors. However, it is with deepest of regrets that we have to state that chances of finding any survivors are now very remote,” an Army spokesperson said on Thursday.

Another senior official said that given the time, temperature and conditions chances of survival are unlikely and they were hoping for a miracle.

Early in the day a very large rescue team has been deployed today to reach down till the post, the officer said. As per inputs received complete blocks of snow and ice had fallen on the post burying it very deep and clearing it was a very difficult task.

To tackle the snow the officer said, “Heavy Snow cutters and major equipment had been put into use to clear and cut the ice blocks hence time delay is happening.”

Rescue teams are working at extremely low temperatures hovering between -25 to 45 degrees putting their lives at risk.

In the early hours of the morning on Wednesday a major avalanche struck an Indian Army post in Northern Siachen Glacier located at a height of 19600 feet. One Junior Commissioned Officer and nine soldiers manning the post were buried in it.

As of now rescue operations are still on. Further progress will be intimated when available, the officer added.

Indian Army has been controlling the dominant heights of Siachen glacier, the world’s highest battlefield, since occupying it in 1984 under Operation Meghdoot.

Pakistan offers help

Pakistan which, occupies lower altitudes on the glacier, has offered help in rescuing the missing soldiers.

The Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) of Pakistan had tweeted: “Pakistan Director General of Military Operations (DGMO) called his Indian counterpart today and offered help for rescue of Indian soldiers who came under snow Avalanche in Northern Areas.”

However Indian Army while appreciating the Pakistani offer of help declined it as “adequate resources and personnel have already been pressed into service.”

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 04 Feb 2016 22:09

From the visuals, it looks like a slab failure on a really steep slope, which then fell on top of the camp. In such a condition with millions of tonnes of rock/ice falling on you at hundreds of kms an hour, there isnt anything in the world that can save you from being ground to a fine powder. The airbags/beacons work in smaller avalanches that are usually triggered by the person himself walking on a weak slab of ice/snow. Useful for when patrols are going out, not so much when you have the mountain side itself falling on top of you.

Aroor has posted a clear pic of the avalanche site.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaYC1YuUcAAbVny.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaXgh--UEAAph1X.jpg:large

In the picture, it looks like there were huge cornices overlooking the campsite. Does the Siachen brigade practice avalanche control? By firing on the cornices to make them collapse before they get too big and dangerous?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 Feb 2016 23:50

Dr N Patel ‏@hindustanse 5h5 hours ago
All 10 Army soldiers of Madras Regiment who were buried under a massive ice-fall on the Siachen Glacier yesterday are confirmed dead. RIP

RIP!!

member_29172 · Post by **member_29172** » 04 Feb 2016 23:57

Sad to hear and a strange occurance. May their souls find peace.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 04 Feb 2016 23:59

RIP to all jawans who lost their precious lives in Siachen. Hope someday technology will make it a truly a habitable place for our armed forces.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Feb 2016 00:11

in case anyone has any SDRE hand wringing 'why can't DRDO prevent this' type of reaction, the French army lost 5 men on a training exercise in the Alps last month due to an avalanche. the mountains are a very hazardous environment and will claim lives on a regular basis

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2016 02:37

no.. it is not OK to leave these incidents as acceptable.

we need to have them supported with latest and greatest with advanced planning and setup.

avalanche bunkers like they do tornado bunkers.. [with periscope/ silo tower tubes for air, water and data comm ]
warning systems,
etc. I can't believe we can't be advancing. [let us not assume what they have in place]

not one or two, but tens and hundreds. bottom: if we can't afford to build these, we can't afford to be standing as a nation. sorry.

shravanp · Post by **shravanp** » 05 Feb 2016 02:48

Besides, Siachen is a permanent station for defense, not one off exercise in Alps. It should have been taken care off better.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Feb 2016 03:06

It's not that simple. Some posts will be on mountain faces, which will have moving ice and snow that are quite thick. How to build a permanent and heavy (stronger usually means heavier) shelter in such places? And before anyone says use carbon fibre for lighter structures, such structures will be more vulnerable to movement and winds and will still need a solid foundation dug into the mountain. Unlike flat permafrost, digging into frozen ice on slopes could also introduce instability. Then frozen ice is incredibly heavy, so a shelter that can withstand a fall of a few tons of hard ice (hopefully no rocks) has to be extremely strong. And what is strong enough, since it's not easy to predict the weight of avalanches.

I agree with the general thrust of the argument that we need to safeguard our people, and we should build strong structures where possible (and probably do to a large extent). But it may not be possible all the time and at all locations.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Feb 2016 03:49

Siachin is not some snow covered mountain tourist spot where you can erect a comfy lounge or build nuke proof underground bunker on the face of mountain.

These are built on and around glaciers, hence you hear toops being lost in crevasse. Thats the reason we don't have road and other humanely possible transportation options. Thats the reason you see choppers landing on top on a raised bump, instead of proper landing spots. Glaciers are something people try to avoid at all cost, our folks guard it on daily basis.

If it was possible IA would have built it by now. Snow and mountaineering equipment they have is top notch.

Can there be some improvements, why not. But are they doing enough, of course.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Feb 2016 04:23

the word should not be impossible. [i generally see nay-sayers with lack of guts/ideas or fear nature uncessarily]

we can move prebuilt structures and shift them.. it need not be huge, but it can be done in stages.

it should not be huts. steel frames are fine with wooden inner supporting an air conditioned system.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 05 Feb 2016 04:53

file photos from siachen.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tJp0gzk8Wt4/T ... Sonam1.JPG

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ERXc3vXgR7E/T ... Sonam3.JPG

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 05 Feb 2016 07:25

^^ The second pic above shows how precarious some of the posts are. With such a drop on either side of the post, construction activity might trigger some movement.

SaiK wrote:it should not be huts. steel frames are fine with wooden inner supporting an air conditioned system.

Okay, fine. How do you secure such a structure? Please keep in mind, the location of posts can either be on the glacier itself (which is moving river of ice) or the sides of a mountain. Or even the pics posted by Sid saar, in between 2 drops.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Feb 2016 07:30

Regarding all the useful suggestions being made on here, I have a question

Soldiers have been on Siachen fo4 32 years. We have been losing a few dozen men a year since then. Why did you guys not make all these suggestions earlier. Why did all you intelligent folks wait for 10 men to die to come up with all this brilliance?

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 05 Feb 2016 07:59

Truly tragic. RIP brave souls. The below is from yesterdays news:

Pakistan Army offers help to trace missing Indian Army personnel
The above news carries the site of pics of the avalanche site and it looks like the Indian Army is already working on rescue ops at the site. Now I dont understand whats the role of Pak in helping us here. They are not even on Siachen. But aam abduls are illiterates in this matter. Look at the second comment for the article.

This offer is just to show support their claim that they are in Siachen.
Its just psyops here and nothing else. As usual our ever faithful ddm does its part very well.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Feb 2016 09:11

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 859991.cms

The entire area, with the post and adjoining helipad, was buried deep under tonnes of crystalised snow when the ice-wall, measuring almost a km wide and 800-m-tall, collapsed on Wednesday," said an officer.

Not sure how one builds a structure that can take a volume of 1 km wide x 0.8 km high x ?? km deep. For reference, any neighborhood kirana store without freezer while ordering a 1 meter cube ice block requires 2 men to drag (not lift) it on jute bags.

Sonam Post has the world's highest helipad at 6400 meters ASL and used to supply Bana Post (previously Quaid Post).

Quaid Post/Bana Post is the left of Bilafond La pass and was the only Pakistani position on the Saltoro Ridge. It was firing from Quaid Post in 1987 killing Indian soldiers on Sonam Post that led to Operation Rajiv and capture of Quaid post.

The Pakistani offer is a devious perfidy to either reconnoiter or even infiltrate these strategic posts.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Feb 2016 11:06

shiv wrote:Regarding all the useful suggestions being made on here, I have a question

Soldiers have been on Siachen fo4 32 years. We have been losing a few dozen men a year since then. Why did you guys not make all these suggestions earlier. Why did all you intelligent folks wait for 10 men to die to come up with all this brilliance?

What's your point? If someone knows of a cool new technology or process, they should keep quiet lest it offend some army rakshak? Or u think there is absolutely no room for improvement in process or technology when it comes to the army?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 05 Feb 2016 11:12

tsarkar wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 859991.cms
The entire area, with the post and adjoining helipad, was buried deep under tonnes of crystalised snow when the ice-wall, measuring almost a km wide and 800-m-tall, collapsed on Wednesday," said an officer.
Not sure how one builds a structure that can take a volume of 1 km wide x 0.8 km high x ?? km deep. For reference, any neighborhood kirana store without freezer while ordering a 1 meter cube ice block requires 2 men to drag (not lift) it on jute bags.

Sonam Post has the world's highest helipad at 6400 meters ASL and used to supply Bana Post (previously Quaid Post).

Quaid Post/Bana Post is the left of Bilafond La pass and was the only Pakistani position on the Saltoro Ridge. It was firing from Quaid Post in 1987 killing Indian soldiers on Sonam Post that led to Operation Rajiv and capture of Quaid post.

The Pakistani offer is a devious perfidy to either reconnoiter or even infiltrate these strategic posts.

Sounds like a gyari type slab failure. Against such an occurance, pretty much any precaution may fail.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Feb 2016 14:01

saik - i appreciate your sentiment; all i can say is that the mountains are >>>>>>> than us
and theory <<<<<<< practicalities

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 Feb 2016 19:59

Hoping this doesn't offend some of the wisdom here, isn't the scenario similar to torpedo navigation in water towards a noise emitter? here the device has to dig thru hardened snow maybe in tethered mode, if the trapped soldiers had noise emitters, it can localize and navigate towards there, similar to bathymetric data you have topographic data to avoid rocky terrain underneath

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Feb 2016 20:14

sudeepj wrote:From the visuals, it looks like a slab failure on a really steep slope, which then fell on top of the camp. In such a condition with millions of tonnes of rock/ice falling on you at hundreds of kms an hour, there isnt anything in the world that can save you from being ground to a fine powder. The airbags/beacons work in smaller avalanches that are usually triggered by the person himself walking on a weak slab of ice/snow. Useful for when patrols are going out, not so much when you have the mountain side itself falling on top of you.

Aroor has posted a clear pic of the avalanche site.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaYC1YuUcAAbVny.jpg:large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaXgh--UEAAph1X.jpg:large

In the picture, it looks like there were huge cornices overlooking the campsite. Does the Siachen brigade practice avalanche control? By firing on the cornices to make them collapse before they get too big and dangerous?

Sudeepj, Very succinct summary of the situation. Yes avalanche is a hazard but a massive slab failure is a disaster.
All you can do is active avalanche control by breaking it up early or siting relocation which is not feasible here.
Don't know if Himalayan Mountaineering Institute (HMI) has avalanche control practices as SOP.

Do we have before pictures to understand the situation?

That picture looks like massive snowfall from the avalanche.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 Feb 2016 20:22

Pictures from Gyari incident showed frozen bodies and not pulped up, if one survives the initial onslaught, they can be inside cavities of the snow without the full weight of the snow column bearing on them unlike water