LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 Feb 2016 18:10

HAL/ADA are prepping 3 LCAs for Iron first next month. I think that's gonna delay Derby/Python certification.

srai · Post by **srai** » 26 Feb 2016 18:40

ranjan.rao wrote:a very basic question: how many aircrafts in an IAF squadron. Wiki has a wide range of 12-24. on BRF I have been reading numbers e.g. 16-20. Does it also vary across different fighter aircrafts or helicopters.
Thanks in advance

The answer is it depends on the aircraft type

For Russian types, like the MiG-21/27/29 and Su-30MKI, with low serviceability rates, the numbers total to around 21 units/squadron on average (although not all are assigned to a particular squadron; some are held as general reserves and rotated for maintenance and possibly for air-frame flight hours load sharing). Jaguar also hovers around 20-to-21 units/squadron using simple averaging of total air-frame to number of squadrons.

For Western types, like the Mirage-2000, with high serviceability rates, the average number seem to be around 18 units/squadron. Rafale, with 36 planned order, will form two squadrons. Although, these numbers could be due to high costs and/or lack of spares to replace aircraft lost in accidents.

On that note based on the given/planned order quantities for the LCA, a squadron of it would average around 20 units/squadron.

As far as my understanding goes, the IAF's squadron is divided into the following structure:

3 aircraft -> a section
2 sections -> a flight
3 flights -> a squadron w/ two combat flights and one technical flight (maintenance, extra reserves, 2-seater training, etc.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Feb 2016 19:09

AKM will have challenges on posting pics.. or perhaps not. here is my support

I am reading the red cover on the intakes as LSP 5RH. does this mean it is LSP 5 and not LSP 3?

quick pointer: 4 legs seen!

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 26 Feb 2016 19:18

AKM tweet which has this picture mentions that it is LSP-3 image.

SaiK wrote:AKM will have challenges on posting pics.. or perhaps not. here is my support I am reading the red cover on the intakes as LSP 5RH. does this mean it is LSP 5 and not LSP 3?

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 26 Feb 2016 19:25

Wondering if it would be possible to rearrange the rear landing gear and create more space for fuel like the Gripen NG. May also be able to add additional pylons.

http://s619.photobucket.com/user/Spudma ... l.jpg.html

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Feb 2016 19:26

Bhaskar_T wrote:AKM tweet which has this picture mentions that it is LSP-3 image.

SaiK wrote:AKM will have challenges on posting pics.. or perhaps not. here is my support I am reading the red cover on the intakes as LSP 5RH. does this mean it is LSP 5 and not LSP 3?

Number "13" on the landing gear cover is for KH-2013, which is LSP-3

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 Feb 2016 19:39

Nose cone looks very Typhoony now

. Very TFTA nose on a SDRE body

So do we plan to produce these in India under license or we have plans for nxt nxt nxt gen radome

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Feb 2016 19:46

IAF to induct 8 squadrons 'Tejas' in 8 years: Manohar Parrikar

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Feb 2016 19:54

Kaustav wrote:It is extremely doubtful that the Tejas/LCA shall use the Astra Air to Air Missile in it's current avatar as the radar and related avionics are of Israeli origin (ELTA/Elbit) on this aircraft while the seeker on the Astra is AGAT of Russian origin.

Thus the natural Air to Air Missile for the Tejas/LCA shall be the Israeli origin Air to Air Missiles the Python and Derby. For the Sukhoi-30MKI, the Astra is perfect as the radar, avionics, seeker on the concerned Aircraft and Missile are Russian in origin.

I might of course be entirely wrong and the simple reason for not using the Astra Missile on the LCA is that the missile itself is still under development and testing.

I'm not reading so. the active seeker is only for terminal homing. it can independently guide the missile to target.
Also, per one of SJha's post, agats were only helping us with the seeker and not building it. [needs to confirm].

In addition, it has LOBL from both from mother platform and from buddy system. essentially, I could have my LCAs at striking range of 80kms, evading the enemy radar by have low RCS, and getting cued from my buddies on MKI some 200 nauts away

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 26 Feb 2016 20:05

^^
I don't think we have that level of data linking in IAF fleet. Navy yes, but not IAF.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 Feb 2016 20:32

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-forc ... ar-1281621

Great news.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Feb 2016 20:39

144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

We need at least 100 more for Tejas Mk2 as well.

member_29355 · Post by **member_29355** » 26 Feb 2016 20:43

Okay. Finished running my eye through all the posts on this thread from Oct 2015. Very inspiring posts and comments. Lot to learn here. Hope I get the time more to check in. Also saw some souls suggesting me how to write, what, when and why. All suggestions welcome and it will only make me a better survivor-cum-writer. After all, I am a beginner and long way to go in Journalism. I will only complete 25 years in this profession next year and that's nothing! And, I started when I was 19 years

Lining up some more cool stuff in the next few days. Attended an inspiring talk by Cmde Mao today. So all that. I have a pile to clear! GN.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 26 Feb 2016 20:54

Karan M wrote:144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

We need at least 100 more for Tejas Mk2 as well.

I guess there will be space to bump up MK1A nos till the time Mk2 production comes online.

Whichever way it is, 100+ of any version is good onlee.

@AKM : Appreciate you taking things in a good spirit. Keep up the good work.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 26 Feb 2016 21:11

AKM wrote: After all, I am a beginner and long way to go in Journalism. I will only complete 25 years in this profession next year and that's nothing! And, I started when I was 19 years

Oh!! so you are a newbie . Look BRF has marked you as a Trainee

Anyways Welcome Sir and continue with the fantastic work

Could you please help provide more details on Tejas 1A and why HAL is unable to pre pone its first flight. 2018 was the earlier timeline for MK.2. Was the earlier timelines unrealistic or some other issue. LOI for 120 A/C is already available so ideally there should not be a case of no orders and earlier too lack of order should not have been the case for delay in MK.2

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Feb 2016 21:26

shreeman you know it was churlish. Probably off day.
Stop digging.

AKM, I apologize on behalf of him.

Lets move on.

member_28397 · Post by **member_28397** » 26 Feb 2016 21:30

Mk1A should have Conformal fuel tanks.

keshavchandra · Post by **keshavchandra** » 26 Feb 2016 22:38

http://idrw.org/tejas-ready-to-spit-fir ... iron-fist/
Tejas ready to spit fire during Iron Fist
Again a good new from LCA front.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 26 Feb 2016 23:58

A total of three Tejas variants will be made ‘hot-ready' for Iron Fist, with one being on the stand-by mode. In an interview to OneIndia, during the IAF's 83rd anniversary celebrations in 2015, a top Aeronautical Development Agency official had said that Tejas would be demonstrating the weapon firing skills during Iron Fist-2016. "Tejas will be demonstrating the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) missile launching and stick bombing capabilities with tandem bomb carrier in swing role," the official had said.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/oneindia- ... 24679.html

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Feb 2016 00:11

AKM wrote:Okay. Finished running my eye through all the posts on this thread from Oct 2015. Very inspiring posts and comments. Lot to learn here. Hope I get the time more to check in. Also saw some souls suggesting me how to write, what, when and why. All suggestions welcome and it will only make me a better survivor-cum-writer. After all, I am a beginner and long way to go in Journalism. I will only complete 25 years in this profession next year and that's nothing! And, I started when I was 19 years

Lining up some more cool stuff in the next few days. Attended an inspiring talk by Cmde Mao today. So all that. I have a pile to clear! GN.

AKM, you have consistently been the bringer of most up to date and relevant news on indigenous programs and that is highly appreciated here. I hope you don't mind people saying anything about your style of writing, what really matters is the content. A little less bombastic language would not do any harm, absolutely no offense meant.

Looking forward to plenty of news reports and exclusive pics from your end. Must have been quite something to listen to Cmde Mao..what a gentleman!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 03:09

Karan M wrote:144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

We need at least 100 more for Tejas Mk2 as well.

We are poised for Mk2. This phase is like 3-legged phase of Mk1A for bringing out the 4-legged beast to take on chippanda!

Mk2 is a test bed for AMCA.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 27 Feb 2016 04:17

Oh that nose!

I've always felt that ADA has underplayed the capability beneath that radome...in terms of size it is almost as big as a MiG-29! It is definitely as big as the M2K and F-16. For a fighter the size of a MiG-21 - that sure is a big snorter...I'm betting it can smell blood a lot further than any aircraft its size and possibly any single engined fighter below the 5th Gen class. Coupled with the Derby ER, this bird is going to be a beast in the BVR arena. If they can reduce any weight for the Mk1A, we are looking at a truly top notch fighter, BVR and WVR.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 08:26

finally, performance is all about nose jobs!

better sensors better platform.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 27 Feb 2016 09:50

ramana wrote:shreeman you know it was churlish. Probably off day.
Stop digging.

AKM, I apologize on behalf of him.

Lets move on.

Ramana,

Karant, Bhaskar, et al there is no reason to impose your impressions on me or to apologize on my behalf. I have a long memory. This is an appropriate discussion for the media thread and I welcome you engaging there. I have a LONG memory and my comments are nothing but justified.

Content is no different than hardware. Each pushes an opinion -- imposes your will. Those that are offended by criticism of mediocre here are the same that are offended by one particular gents liking for mediocre hardware. To the point of routinely harrassing him and edging him to the point of short bans.

I have laid out justified criticism. You do not follow the writer as well. Consider the heritage, experience, and access and then accept the mediocre sub par output if you will.

I choose to spend time away from this thread, to not distract it from its already downward spiral in quality. You want my opinion on media matters, which comes from a well researched basis, raise your arguments in the media/reporting thread and let me know via PM.

best.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 27 Feb 2016 11:22

@YangaSri - Thanks for sharing the article. I have copied the entire article and quoted below in your original post.

@shreeman Ji - With the higher risk of thread being derailed & smaller chance of any possible value addition (AKM Ji has responded already), I have moved on. No further comments from me on it.

Yagnasri wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-forc ... ar-1281621

NEW DELHI: The Air Force will induct three to four indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' this year and a total of eight squadrons in eight years, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today.

He told the Lok Sabha that a Letter of Intent for procuring 120 Tejas was issued and the first aircraft was inducted by the IAF in 2015 and three to four would be inducted this year.

"We are also in the process of approving the second line of manufacturing to the HAL so that they can produce 16 aircraft per year. In the next eight years, you will have about eight squadrons of LCA," he said during the Question Hour.

Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is the nodal organisation for the development of 'Tejas'.

Mr Parrikar said India has been importing 15 per cent of the global arms imports which has now come down to 14 per cent.

India's arms import bill has also come down from around Rs. 35,000 crore to Rs. 24,900 crore now, he said.

The Defence Minister said Indian defence industries, ordnance factories and shipyards have been functioning in full capacity and the orders received by them have increased substantially over the years.

They have orders to the tune of Rs. 1,60,000 crore and they would not be able to complete all orders even in the next ten years, he said, adding that these orders were indigenous, mostly from the government, and just two per cent orders from abroad.

Replying to another question, Mr Parrikar refuted a suggestion that India's budget allocation for defence sector was low in comparison to countries like the US, China and Pakistan, saying the pensions of defence personnel was not part of the defence budget.

He said modernisation of the armed forces was a continuous process based on threat perception, operational challenges and technological changes to keep the armed forces in a state of readiness to meet the entire spectrum of security challenges.

"Government attaches the highest priority to ensuring that the armed forces are sufficiently equipped to meet any operational requirement. This is achieved through induction of new equipment and technological upgradation of capabilities," he said.
Great news.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 27 Feb 2016 11:30

Behind the Tejas, that semi oval-circular shape thing, is that a hardened shelter or is that a normal roof-cover? If that is used for parking of fighters, can it sustain enemy ground attacks?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Feb 2016 12:05

Its a HAS hardened ac shelter

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Feb 2016 12:53

its rated upto a certain size of bomb, sometimes they are covered with rocks and earth to increase the protection level. the wall in front is to safeguard from blasts in the front

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 27 Feb 2016 12:55

Few weeks ago, when suddenly Tejas Mk1A got attention, funds, orders, there was lot of chatter around that Tejas Mk2 won't be taken forward instead ADA+HAL would focus straightaway on AMCA. Was that all rubbish? What is the current schedule for Tejas Mk2 first flight? Has final drawings been frozen and steel-cut/assembly started?

There is hardly any development news on Mk2. Any significant development on Tejas Mk2 was heard about 6-7 months ago, defence sources quoted that ADA first of the 8 F414-GE-INS6 engines would be received by end 2015. Has first F414 engine been received already?

SaiK wrote:
Karan M wrote:144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

We need at least 100 more for Tejas Mk2 as well.
We are poised for Mk2. This phase is like 3-legged phase of Mk1A for bringing out the 4-legged beast to take on chippanda!

Mk2 is a test bed for AMCA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 13:34

Singha wrote:its rated upto a certain size of bomb, sometimes they are covered with rocks and earth to increase the protection level. the wall in front is to safeguard from blasts in the front

why wouldn't these shelters go below the ground? we can still have a dummy bulge piled with rocks. of course, on negative I can think is double costs. but more security and protection. can have camouflaging design on top with trees and shrubs. more the earth, better the security

we could alternatively double the layers (like onion skins) with extra PAS

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 13:52

well if you look at the 2015 brochure, you will see that improved HUD, integrated EWS, AESA and OBOGS. we have been hearing here and there about these sub-components and LRUs. to drive with AESA on Mk1A requires that extra powered engine... hence, imho, the mk1A with AESA is doubtful.

if IAF wants AESA, and retain the 4-legged Tejas, they must support Mk2. OTOH, Mk1A is a pure HAL thought without any specifications put online.

--
ps: forgot the +1 g limits

srai · Post by **srai** » 27 Feb 2016 18:00

Bhaskar_T wrote:Behind the Tejas, that semi oval-circular shape thing, is that a hardened shelter or is that a normal roof-cover? If that is used for parking of fighters, can it sustain enemy ground attacks?

New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) for large aircraft like Su-30MKI are on the horizon. It is supposed to be able to withstand direct hit from 2000lb bomb.

Parliamentary panel concerned that Sukhoi-30 fighters have no protective shelters

...
The report, which was submitted in parliament recently, says that “the Committee are concerned to find that our air force is already short of planes and worse than that hardened shelters are not available for even the limited numbers of aircraft that is available with the Service”.

The IAF informed the committee in oral evidence that the aircraft are deprived of hardened shelters because the Sukhoi-30 MKI cannot be fit into the existing ones because of their large size. “It is a much bigger aircraft. Therefore some New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) has to be made in which not only a SU-30 can fit but also servicing, loading of weapons and maintenance activities can be done inside the shelter,” the committee was informed.

The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”.
...

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Feb 2016 18:18

MK1A without AESA?
One thought that this was one of the last 4 remaining upgrades that constitute the 1A.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Feb 2016 19:13

Karan M wrote:144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

We need at least 100 more for Tejas Mk2 as well.

Re Karan,

It will be super great news if 144 LCA Mk-1 + 1A are being procured. But it seems from the news reports like the one :-

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 155948.cms

That only 120 are being procured ie Original 40 plus 80. Though the contract for next 80 has not been signed. It also seems that IAF has done a "Nag, Arjun" on LCA and instead of 20 IOC, 20 FOC and 80 1A, IAF has gone for 2-4 IOC, 16-18 FOC and 100 1A aircraft. Though I repeat, I would prefer to be wrong on this issue.

Secondly I think that decrease in enthusiasm for Mk-2 for IAF is because of realization that the contemplated benefits may be less than the possible delay. I think that interregnum created by 1A may be used to further refine IAF Mk-2.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 27 Feb 2016 19:28

SaiK wrote:well if you look at the 2015 brochure, you will see that improved HUD, integrated EWS, AESA and OBOGS. we have been hearing here and there about these sub-components and LRUs. to drive with AESA on Mk1A requires that extra powered engine... hence, imho, the mk1A with AESA is doubtful.

if IAF wants AESA, and retain the 4-legged Tejas, they must support Mk2. OTOH, Mk1A is a pure HAL thought without any specifications put online.

HAL proposed Mk1A with AESA(with 3 other important additions), MoD liked it, IAF liked it and issued a letter of intent for 100 Mk1A.

And you say Mk1A with AESA is doubtful.

You must know something that no one at HAL/MoD/IAF knows.

IAF interest in Mk2 was just to piggyback on Navys requirements. Air chief Raha had clearly said that hes happy as long as the LCAs are delivered with the proposed additions on time. Said "he will take as many as they can give"

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Feb 2016 19:30

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/air-forc ... ar-1281621[/q

NEW DELHI: The Air Force will induct three to four indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft 'Tejas' this year (By 31st March 2016 or 31st Dec 2016 or 31st March 2017??) and a total of eight squadrons in eight years, (ie 20x8=160 or 18x8= 144 or 16x8=128??) Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said today.

He told the Lok Sabha that a Letter of Intent for procuring 120 Tejas was issued and the first aircraft was inducted by the IAF in 2015 and three to four would be inducted this year.

"We are also in the process of approving the second line (Not even approved is it? So how will 8 squadrons will be produced by HAL in 8 years??) of manufacturing to the HAL so that they can produce 16 aircraft per year. In the next eight years, you will have about eight squadrons of LCA," he said during the Question Hour. (lets say 8 for first 4 years and when second production line starts then 16 for next four years, that comes to 32+64=96 + 4 this year ie around 100 aircraft by end of Dec 2024??)

They have orders to the tune of Rs. 1,60,000 crore and they would not be able to complete all orders even in the next ten years, (Nothing to be happy about the delay and incompetence) he said, adding that these orders were indigenous, mostly from the government, and just two per cent orders from abroad.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Feb 2016 20:10

AKM wrote:Hello guys. Just got enrolled to BR, officially!

I thought member Krishnan was you.

maitya wrote:For Astra etc (2) is not an issue - while (1) is not an issue as most probably it's hybrid-version of the 2032 (or maybe we have been provided access to the AA algorithms or atleast the API itself).

For R77 etc it's a huge issue, as Russians wouldn't part with the (2) details above (as will be the case with any foreign BVR AAM). For Derby, it's not an issue anyway as both Radar and the missile belongs to the same manufacturing unit etc.

Good Post, Maitya

The only radar for which we’ve ToT and source code is Bars. Its manufactured at HAL Hyderabad. Which is why Astra is tested on Su-30MKI, because we have the source codes.

The Russians developed Bars using Indian funding, and since no other sales was forthcoming (Algeria, Malaysia sales were much later), they actually did the ToT. They gave degraded technology to China. The largest land grab in history was the annexation of Siberia by Russia from China, and both remember it.

The other radar for which we should have source codes is RDY-2, since that too was agreed. It was the last sale of Mirage 2000 technology by Dassault and they agreed to it. That raised hopes of ToT for RBE2, that was also a RFP criteria, but Dassault started fudging leading to the present impasse.

For 2032, Israel did not share codes. The Derby family came pre-integrated. Hence Sea Harrier and Tejas can easily integrate Derby & Python. For Astra, Israel will integrate the missile for us with the radar.

Similarly for Zhuk on MiG-29K/KUB/UPG

Karan M wrote:144 LCAs. 40 Mk1 and 104 Mk1As in all likelihood.

Actually its 160

As per ADA http://www.tejas.gov.in/history/genesis.html

By 2005, the Tejas had proven itself in the testing phase and the first order for 20 Series Production aircrafts was placed. A follow on order for an additional 20 SP aircraft was placed in 2010. …
…SP-1 to SP-40 production started in 2013

So we already have firm orders for 20 IOC placed in 2005 and 20 FOC placed in 2010. The new LoI is for 120 additional aircraft to SoP 2018 / Mk 1A standards.

It was expected the initial 40 would be delivered by 2018, and manufacture of Mk1A starting in 2018, but looks that will be delayed.

BTW, despite the ranting on this thread, there was no lack of IAF institutional orders for Tejas. The 40 firm orders before the aircraft cleared its basic flight envelope in IOC-2 in December 2013 is proof to it. The aircraft opened its full flight envelope only now, certifying Max Gs in late 2015/early 2016.

For Su-30, the first order was for 8 Su-30K and 32 Su-30MKI-I,II, III & IV for a total of 40 for 2 squadrons (24 & 20)

For Mirage 2000, the first order in 1982 was for 36H and 4TH for a total of 40 for 2 squadrons (1 & 7)

For MiG-29, the first order placed in September 1986 was for a total for 40 for 2 squadrons (28 & 47)

The 8 squadrons @ 20 each add up to 160. 8 years is wildly optimistic.

srai wrote:New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) for large aircraft like Su-30MKI are on the horizon. It is supposed to be able to withstand direct hit from 2000lb bomb.

Correct, we always had HAS for MiG-21, 23, 27 & 29 etc but a Sukhoi Su-30MKI at 22 meters is as long as an An-32 transport. When I first saw a Sukhoi in 2000, it was parked next to an An-32 and was awed by the sight.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 27 Feb 2016 22:24

HAL's plan to increase LCA Tejas Prod capacity to 16 will not be sufficient to meet IAF demand and Export. HAL will have starts a greenfield plant which produce ~20 to 24 planes in addition to existing, the new plant can be setup in Hosur or Kolar which is ~50km from HAL Bangalore so that they can use current supplier base

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Feb 2016 22:36

It depends on how it picks up.. they can begin constructing the 3rd assembly line.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Feb 2016 23:35

TSarkar its not 160 unless we look at all up squadrons of 20 airframes each.... the orders placed by themselves didnt get finished....it was 40 LCAMk1 and now another 6 squads of Mk1A......RM just confirmed 8 sq..thats ...144.. at 18 each...basically IAF moved Mk2 orders to MK1A. If 16 more at 20 per sq that will be good news.

Also not really confirmed whether we got source codes for RDY2...it would be interesting to confirm. Even for Bars some hw remains imported but perhaps post RMs initiative it may reduce...all hopes remain on Uttam.