Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

[shiv]

Historians like Ram Guha read history in Englsih language. Europeans wrote history to view colonized people from a European perspective. They even translated ancient Indian texts into works that carried that European perspective of the native. Indian historians read that in English and understand India like a foreigner.

Both Balu and Rajiv malhotra have fought lone battles against that. We must raise our awareness and standards and help

[Prem Kumar]

That's so true, Shiv!

The amount of insight that I have now when I read a Western work (ability to see through the smoke & mirrors) is possible only due to the efforts of Rajiv Malhotra. If not for him, Pollock's sepoy army would've constructed 20 years worth of a Marxist-narrative and Indians would one day wake up and ask "Who is this Pollock guy?"

RoyG: I have read Talageri's work about PIE. I even posted about it several pages back. But if you look at the fundamental assumption by the West, its that PIE & Tamil are 2 different language families. Its convenient for them to state this & leave it at that, because it fits with the Aryan narrative.

But we should not be so dismissive! Imagine this: PIE left India and went Westwards via various harsh climates/terrain and yet we see imprints from Iran to Ireland! But North & South Indians who freely intermingled over a 65000 year period have 2 distinct language families!! That's a bit hard to swallow. More research is needed to ascertain whether there are deep grammatical structural similarities between say Tamil & Sanskrit. If they are, it will not only make sense, but will also be a body-blow to AIT.

Proto-Indic as a mother of PIE will serve OIT very well, but cannot be explained by AIT

[RoyG]

I actually place myself in the camp of PIE originating somewhere between Afghanistan and Punjab and budding Westward and ANI-ASI mixing together peacefully.

I do however agree with Malhotra. Far too much attention is put on the North. We need to study the South as well.

[RoyG]

The so called North South divide; the description of south Indians as Dravidians and North Indians as Aryans; the archetypal "madrasi" as opposed to a northie are all the fallout of the Aryan invasion theory. Hindi "imposition" and anti-Hindi riots are also a result of a divide that did not exist prior to 1700 AD

The British (and Europeans) heard the word Arya in the Rig veda and felt that they were "Aryans" - the noble people. Initially they gave India some credit for the Rig Veda but gradually found that Indians, even "upper castes" who they saw as brothers were too different and too black for their taste. That is how Dravidians got invented as the inferior black race that corrupted the Indian Aryans. To some extent Northern Indian colonized minds saw themselves as Aryans and deep South colonized minds said "fuk off we are Dravidians and we don't give a damn for you Aryans"

When you look at genetics and find that this is all bullshit you realise how much damage has been done to India by the AIT

South Indians speaking South Indian languages find it easy to see how much Sanskrit they use in their languages. Carnatic music and temple rituals are full of Sanskrit anyway like all Hindus. North Indians or even east Indians who do not know any South Indian language fail to see the amount of Sanskrit in South Indian languages and hear only gibberish.

Two points here:

Modern Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu are full of Sanskrit words. Tamil too but a little less so
Modern Tamil is a language that emerged from the ancestor language of Kannada - called "Halegannada" (Pronounced "Halay-gun-ada"-Old Kannada).

Many Halegannada inscriptions exist. And if I am not mistaken the Aihole inscription from a Karnataka king that mentions the date of the Mahabharat war is in Halegannada script but Sanskrit language

Our nation owes a debt of gratitude to Rajiv Malhotra. Thanks due to Shiva/Vishnu/Brahma for producing him

Agree. The divide simply hadn't existed. We're all a mix of ANI and ASI. However, If Proto-Indic had existed we should have seen some words from the South Indian languages which made their way into Sanskrit vocabulary. Is this indeed the case?

[johneeG]

That's so true, Shiv!

The amount of insight that I have now when I read a Western work (ability to see through the smoke & mirrors) is possible only due to the efforts of Rajiv Malhotra. If not for him, Pollock's sepoy army would've constructed 20 years worth of a Marxist-narrative and Indians would one day wake up and ask "Who is this Pollock guy?"

RoyG: I have read Talageri's work about PIE. I even posted about it several pages back. But if you look at the fundamental assumption by the West, its that PIE & Tamil are 2 different language families. Its convenient for them to state this & leave it at that, because it fits with the Aryan narrative.

But we should not be so dismissive! Imagine this: PIE left India and went Westwards via various harsh climates/terrain and yet we see imprints from Iran to Ireland! But North & South Indians who freely intermingled over a 65000 year period have 2 distinct language families!! That's a bit hard to swallow. More research is needed to ascertain whether there are deep grammatical structural similarities between say Tamil & Sanskrit. If they are, it will not only make sense, but will also be a body-blow to AIT.

Proto-Indic as a mother of PIE will serve OIT very well, but cannot be explained by AIT

True. Honestly, I think Talageri's work is useful only to the extent that it opposes witzel.

I don't believe in this Aryan-Dhravidian being two separate streams of languages or races. Anyone who understands these languages can see that there are too many similarities for them to be two independent streams.

[Virendra]

Excerpt from genealogy of Changez Khan, I'll let you locate the interesting term :

Before the time of Chungeez, the Moghools do not appear to have had any written language: Chungeez Khan, therefore, directed them and their children to learn the Oighoor character. The orders or regulations of which we speak are written in that character in the records called Shub Ashob, and they are also called the Great Code of Regula­tions.* This book was deposited in the treasury, and was so highly esteemed by the Turks, that they never departed from its authority.

[Prem]

These illiterate making mess of Shubh Ashubh

[Pulikeshi]

...Tamil too but a little less so
Modern Tamil is a language that emerged from the ancestor language of Kannada - called "Halegannada" (Pronounced "Halay-gun-ada"-Old Kannada).

Do you have any research to base this assertion on? That is for Haegannada -> Tamil?
I have often wondered about Irula, Gond, etc. and what vector is supported by facts.
The other question for linguistics/genetics did these tribals predate this "Havardism" of ANI/ASI?
If so, what if any impact did these tribals have on their cousins, if not, did they remain islands?

[Virendra]

The divide or isolation may have existed during and little after the last ice age, causing languages to develop in parallel.
But eventually and inevitably the mix up occurred and we see shared words/roots among the languages.
There could be one more explanation for the similarities in languages - common ancestry before the LGM isolation.

[Lalmohan]

does anyone have any studies of the status and situation of the ice caps on the indian landmass during the last ice age?

[Murugan]

Perhaps India was not much under influence of Ice Age, nevertheless affected by Ice Age

https://grahamhancock.com/ashcf1/

[Murugan]

"Modern Kannada, Malayalam and Telugu are full of Sanskrit words. Tamil too but a little less so"

Aurobindo Ashram Pondi have published a book on sanskrit words in Tamil, mostly tadbhav types

[Lalmohan]

interesting paper from hancock, i was thinking about the himalayan region and how far the ice extended south? not an accident that our gods came from the lands of the snows?

[shiv]

does anyone have any studies of the status and situation of the ice caps on the indian landmass during the last ice age?

I looked up info on this about a year ago. The evidence of an "Ice age" comes from rocks that show evidence of having been dragged in glaciers. Such evidence exists up to about halfway down into Europe and a similar latitude in North America. You can Google for maps of this.

To my knowledge the is no evidence at all of such glacier grazed rocks in India. There is another thing that I have surmised but have not searched for scientific studies. It's like this: If global warming causes glacial melting and rising sea levels, an ice age will lead to falling sea levels

The fact that Dwaraka was out of water and went into water within living memory in Hindu folklore suggests to me that sea levels rose after the last glacial melt around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

[shiv]

The divide or isolation may have existed during and little after the last ice age, causing languages to develop in parallel.
But eventually and inevitably the mix up occurred and we see shared words/roots among the languages.
There could be one more explanation for the similarities in languages - common ancestry before the LGM isolation.

It appears that the so called "Dravidian languages" have coastal connections, all the way to SE Asia and Pacific Islands. and the Indo European languages have overland connections.

Isn't this distribution curiously like the first out of Africa wave along the coast and the second wave overland?

Both sets of languages are probably that old.

[Bade]

The Himalayas itself could have had a larger glacier footprint before the warming around 10k years ago. So references to that in folklore of the times as abode of gods etc has some grounding. It is quite possible that the higher and even the lower reaches were not passable at all during those times and could have been considered the northern end of land where mysterious beings live.

[Prem]

ABout Himalayas, Hope folks here watch the HBO Documentary on Mount Meru Shark Fin Peak climb.

[Lalmohan]

The Himalayas itself could have had a larger glacier footprint before the warming around 10k years ago. So references to that in folklore of the times as abode of gods etc has some grounding. It is quite possible that the higher and even the lower reaches were not passable at all during those times and could have been considered the northern end of land where mysterious beings live.

precisely

[Lalmohan]

The divide or isolation may have existed during and little after the last ice age, causing languages to develop in parallel.
But eventually and inevitably the mix up occurred and we see shared words/roots among the languages.
There could be one more explanation for the similarities in languages - common ancestry before the LGM isolation.

It appears that the so called "Dravidian languages" have coastal connections, all the way to SE Asia and Pacific Islands. and the Indo European languages have overland connections.

Isn't this distribution curiously like the first out of Africa wave along the coast and the second wave overland?

Both sets of languages are probably that old.

and the 'original' african mitochondrial dna has been traced to some keralan communities

[shiv]

The Himalayas itself could have had a larger glacier footprint before the warming around 10k years ago. So references to that in folklore of the times as abode of gods etc has some grounding. It is quite possible that the higher and even the lower reaches were not passable at all during those times and could have been considered the northern end of land where mysterious beings live.

Very likely. Himalayas after all, are one part of the world that represent permafrost.

[shiv]

Why does Slovenia have this ancient story and idiom?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coromandel_Coast

In Slovene the idiom Indija Koromandija (India Coromandel) means a land of plenty,[10] a promised land, a utopia where "Houses are bleached with cheese and covered with cake"

Sanskrit-Slovenian links go back a long long time

[Lalmohan]

white cheese - lime wash
cake - cow dung

[Virendra]

does anyone have any studies of the status and situation of the ice caps on the indian landmass during the last ice age?

I looked up info on this about a year ago. The evidence of an "Ice age" comes from rocks that show evidence of having been dragged in glaciers. Such evidence exists up to about halfway down into Europe and a similar latitude in North America. You can Google for maps of this.

To my knowledge the is no evidence at all of such glacier grazed rocks in India. There is another thing that I have surmised but have not searched for scientific studies. It's like this: If global warming causes glacial melting and rising sea levels, an ice age will lead to falling sea levels

The fact that Dwaraka was out of water and went into water within living memory in Hindu folklore suggests to me that sea levels rose after the last glacial melt around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Isolation doesn't necessarily need huge ice caps or glaciers. Lack of water and too thick forests can also cause it.
Moreover, India being tropical is where the ice age was least effective. Plenty of ice age refugia here.
Ice age doesn't offer much for humans to procreate. Being lesser in numbers means, less motivation to venture out i.e. another way of getting yourself isolated.

[member_29218]

does anyone have any studies of the status and situation of the ice caps on the indian landmass during the last ice age?

....................

The fact that Dwaraka was out of water and went into water within living memory in Hindu folklore suggests to me that sea levels rose after the last glacial melt around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

From my post on the previous page, this USGS article is simplified but does suggest that sea levels were higher in the interglacials than they are today, but they are referring to the periods before the Holocene - at least that is how I am reading it.

It is possible then that Dwarka may have subsided into the sea from other local geological phenomena instead of a simple rise in sea level - such as post-glacial rebound (effected the ice-bound parts of the world more, but apparently could have had an influence as far as India) OTOH, parts of Mahabalipuram submerged much more recently. Don't know if sea levels were that much lower, say 2000 ya as opposed to now.

[Prem Kumar]

Varanasi as old as Indus Valley Civilization

This is an extremely important finding! The Gangetic Civilization was traditionally believed to be post-Harappan. It gave some joy to the AIT-wallahs because they interpreted this to mean that Aryans pushed natives (or themselves) moved further Eastwards.

Michael Danino, in a great series of lectures at IIT-KGP, talked about how there were civilizational linkages between Harappan and Gangetic.

And along comes this discovery........

[Murugan]

It is all about Sepoys, says George Gavarghese Joseph

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1140225/j ... 018921.jsp

[Murugan]

Found out that Bolivia has a full-fledged Ministry for Decolonisation! India should have one too!

De-colonization of South America

http://ckraju.net/blog/

[shiv]

The fact that Dwaraka was out of water and went into water within living memory in Hindu folklore suggests to me that sea levels rose after the last glacial melt around 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

From my post on the previous page, this USGS article is simplified but does suggest that sea levels were higher in the interglacials than they are today, but they are referring to the periods before the Holocene - at least that is how I am reading it.

It is possible then that Dwarka may have subsided into the sea from other local geological phenomena instead of a simple rise in sea level - such as post-glacial rebound (effected the ice-bound parts of the world more, but apparently could have had an influence as far as India) OTOH, parts of Mahabalipuram submerged much more recently. Don't know if sea levels were that much lower, say 2000 ya as opposed to now.

Primus I typed 12,000 to 10,000 years ago deliberately. The Holocene (current) era started about then, and sea levels were probably rising after over 10,000 years of low levels. There seem to be astronomical observations in ancient Sanskrit texts going back to 6000 BC - perhaps earlier although no one outside a core bunch of people like us dubbed as Hindu revivalists seem to be wiling to accept anything that does not flow out from some study in the west. Maybe the history does go back that far.

I am sure Himalayan glaciers must have been thicker and richer during the last glacial maximum, but India was not iced up. The north must have been icy and cold at least in winter and Indians may not have had to go that far north to see snow and ice

Mahabalipuram seems to be a different and recent phenomenon IMO

[Prem Kumar]

Shiv: 12 - 10 KYA glacial maximum and subsequent melting leads to another train of thought.

Sarasvati is praised as a mighty river, sometimes as wide as 20 miles (I think some Vedic hymns refer to it being as wide as the ocean). Isn't it possible that the abundance of water on Sarasvati is related to the post-ice-age-melting of some of the Himalayan glaciers?

Sarasvati dried up around 1900 BCE. So, somewhere between 10000 years ago to 4000 years ago, the Sarasvati would have been a mighty river, fed by the Himalayas.

[shiv]

Shiv: 12 - 10 KYA glacial maximum and subsequent melting leads to another train of thought.

Sarasvati is praised as a mighty river, sometimes as wide as 20 miles (I think some Vedic hymns refer to it being as wide as the ocean). Isn't it possible that the abundance of water on Sarasvati is related to the post-ice-age-melting of some of the Himalayan glaciers?

Sarasvati dried up around 1900 BCE. So, somewhere between 10000 years ago to 4000 years ago, the Sarasvati would have been a mighty river, fed by the Himalayas.

There is nothng inconsistent or wrong in what you say - that may be the truth. But truth is not what linguists want. As I get deeper into editing that book that I am writing, it occurs to me that "truth" does not interest linguists or European/American scholars.

They are simply looking at creating a history for themselves that they like. They don't like proof that might indicate that Sanskrit or proto Indo European is much older then the 1000 BC date they like to give. They are happy to put the origin of language, religion art etc in lands that are screwed up now like Levant and middle east so that they can claim that although everything originated there - they are the people who took it forward. Nothing has changed in these attitudes since 1800.

Unfortunately the power of Western Universalism is so high that even Indians develop self doubt or scepticism in stating the obvious, if the obvious goes against theory as liked by western scholars. The secularists and leftist historians are the worst because the see a Hindu demon in anything that shakes their belief in western superiority.

As I see it it is not important to prove out of India or into India. It is important to arrive at the truth. Unfortunately for some people it looks like the truth will mean that there is a huge out of India component that no one wants to admit. I am yet to find anything really convincing that tells me otherwise.

[csaurabh]

There is nothng inconsistent or wrong in what you say - that may be the truth. But truth is not what linguists want. As I get deeper into editing that book that I am writing, it occurs to me that "truth" does not interest linguists or European/American scholars.

They are simply looking at creating a history for themselves that they like. They don't like proof that might indicate that Sanskrit or proto Indo European is much older then the 1000 BC date they like to give. They are happy to put the origin of language, religion art etc in lands that are screwed up now like Levant and middle east so that they can claim that although everything originated there - they are the people who took it forward. Nothing has changed in these attitudes since 1800.

Unfortunately the power of Western Universalism is so high that even Indians develop self doubt or scepticism in stating the obvious, if the obvious goes against theory as liked by western scholars. The secularists and leftist historians are the worst because the see a Hindu demon in anything that shakes their belief in western superiority.

As I see it it is not important to prove out of India or into India. It is important to arrive at the truth. Unfortunately for some people it looks like the truth will mean that there is a huge out of India component that no one wants to admit. I am yet to find anything really convincing that tells me otherwise.

The way I see it is that Euro/American 'scholars' have come to believe deeply that all the knowledge in the world was created in the West in the last 300-400 years - or in Ancient Greece. Anything that disturbs this viewpoint must be ignored or rejected, or derided as pseudoscience .

[Lalmohan]

i don't believe that the indian peninsular landmass was ice bound, but in fact it was a refuge for humans coming south to avoid the ice. the himalaya would have been more ice bound and the glaciers much more extensive. the saraswati melt water model is clear to me. i believe that there was also a major tilting of the plate that accelerated the draining of the saraswati and led to the five rivers we have now (the remains of the saraswati) and the rise in prominence of the ganga

as the himalayan ice retreats, humans would have followed it north, particularly if they were herders. in europe there were reindeer herders who did exactly that. their remnants are still found in lapland (sami people). the evidence for agriculture doesn't necessarily support an out of india model, since existing evidence points to the iranian/iraqi river systems. i suspect that the overall climate in india has not preserved these remains well, even though there are some ice age remains in india that point to simple hunter/gatherer type societies.

[shiv]

India was definitely not iced up. The map below shows the extent of permafrost in the last ice age

[johneeG]

Saars,
just want to point out that fundamentals of ice age theory seem weak. Do focus on that also.

[vishvak]

The way I see it is that Euro/American 'scholars' have come to believe deeply that all the knowledge in the world was created in the West in the last 300-400 years - or in Ancient Greece. Anything that disturbs this viewpoint must be ignored or rejected, or derided as pseudoscience .

Babylonian astronomers tracked Jupiter using Calculus, Geometry
link

An analysis of the tablets, reported in the journal Science, reveals ancient Babylonians were able to calculate the position of Jupiter using geometric techniques previously believed to have been first used some 1,400 years later in 14th century Europe.

link

This startling discovery very nearly fell through the cracks. The translated tablet is one among hundreds excavated in the 19th century, with archaeologists and anthropologists working tirelessly for a hundred years, trying to decode them.

The tablets, excavated in 19th century, are still getting decoded only, since its long after the civilization was run over in 7th century during the Islamic conquest.

[Prem]

http://www.thebetterindia.com/48519/ayo ... -hwang-ok/
Hundreds of South Koreans Visit Ayodhya Every Year. This Is Why!

The holy city of Ayodhya, in Uttar Pradesh, plays host to hundreds of South Koreans every year – who come to pay their tributes to the legendary queen Hur Hwang-ok. According to legend, queen Hur Hwang-ok, also known as Princess Suriratna, was the princess of Ayodhya before she went to South Korea and married King Kim Suro of Karak Clan in 48 AD. It is believed that she reached Korea on a boat, and was the first queen of King Suro of Geumgwan Gaya. She was 16-year-old when she got married and is considered the first queen of Gaya Kingdom.It is because of the presence of her monument in Ayodhya that around 60 lakh people of the Karak clan consider the city as their maternal home. The memorial was first inaugurated in 2001 in Ayodhya and more than a hundred historians and government representatives, including the North Korean ambassador to India, were present during the ceremony. Seven million Koreans, representing the Kimhae Kim clan, Hur clan and Incheon Yi clan, trace their ancestry to the royal union.Describing how she landed in Gaya when she first met the king, she said that the heavenly lord (Sange Je) appeared in her parents’ dreams and told them to send her to the Korea as the king had not found a queen yet. Legend states that the queen died at the age of 157.

[MurthyB]

X-post from twitter forum. Relevant here because this, too, is "out of India", only of a different kind:

The Shallowness of Pollock's "Deep Orientalism"

Pollock concludes in his essay "Deep Orientalism":

“From its colonial origins in Justice Sir William to its consummation in SS Obersturmführer [a senior rank in the Nazi party] Wüst, Sanskrit and Indian studies have contributed directly to consolidating and sustaining programs of domination. In this (noteworthy orthogenesis) these studies have recapitulated the character of their subject, that indigenous discourse of power for which Sanskrit has been one major vehicle and which has shown a notable longevity and resilience.” (pg. 111 Deep Orientalism, italics mine)

About Wüst, Pollock (p. 89) says that he wrote “the programmatic article "German Antiquity and the History of Aryan Thought" … after the National Socialists took power … a model for what was to come.” Wüst interpreted that “the ancient aryas of India were those who felt themselves to be the "privileged, the legitimate" … because they established the superiority of their race, their culture, their religion, and their worldview in the course of struggle with host populations.” Pollock does nothing to debunk this interpretation. Rather, he affirms it in his essay by explaining that the aryas achieved it through monopolization of Sanskrit language and knowledge.

If these are not connections forged by Pollock between Sanskrit and Nazism, if this is not an attempt to blame Sanskrit for Nazism, I don’t know what can be. Yet people are not convinced and think that Pollock is engaged merely in a comparative analysis of the "morphology of domination." Anyone who has read Pollock carefully would know that in his view all knowledge is political in nature and is ultimately about politics. Therefore, while he continues to engage in politics through knowledge, naive intellectuals assume that he is on some great intellectual quest.

Some may hold in good faith that Sanskrit thought cannot be held responsible for Nazism and so assume that people of deep erudition such as Pollock cannot possibly commit such a travesty. But that is what we must find out by reflecting upon their writings and hence this post.

Worth reading whole to see what the fuss about Pollock is for those who are unfamiliar

[shiv]

About Wüst, Pollock (p. 89) says that he wrote “the programmatic article "German Antiquity and the History of Aryan Thought" … after the National Socialists took power … a model for what was to come.” Wüst interpreted that “the ancient aryas of India were those who felt themselves to be the "privileged, the legitimate" … because they established the superiority of their race, their culture, their religion, and their worldview in the course of struggle with host populations.” Pollock does nothing to debunk this interpretation. Rather, he affirms it in his essay by explaining that the aryas achieved it through monopolization of Sanskrit language and knowledge.

At best Pollock is an incompetent pillock. At worst he is a liar. He does not know or acknowledge the fact that the "superiority" the Nazis found in their connection with Sanskrit was an all Europe affair where even Britons like Huxley believed that. Sanskrit and its connection with Indo European languages gave Europeans the real historic antiquity they needed to prove their superiority over the semites whose glorious history was being viewed with discomfort and envy in the ruins found in Assyria.

Indologists said that the finding of Mitanni texts in Assyria with a Sanskrit like language proved that European had moved through Assyria on there way to India. It was the European touch of greatness that gave asyria its glorious history which semites could not otherwise have. In India the Aryans mixed with black heathen locals and got degraded - leaving all the greatness in Europe onlee.

PS can I have a twitter link? Thanks?

[JE Menon]

Watch it. Everyone.

[youtube]SoyPwRh4nRg&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

[MurthyB]

PS can I have a twitter link? Thanks?

Sure, I tweeted you a link, assuming that's what you meant. BTW, just to clarify, the author of the piece is not me of-course; it is one Ashay Naik who I have no connection to.