Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 05 Mar 2016 21:49

Did the shaurya missiles actually get inducted?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 05 Mar 2016 21:54

sudeepj wrote:No activity for an year, and then a flurry of announcements/leaks of "secret tests" (K4, Agni V, the Nirbhay Notam) in two weeks. One might be forgiven if one thinks that a message is being sent to the Barak HUSSEIN Obama administration that F16 supply will have consequences.

Another observation, as per my memory, the Arihant SILOs are 2.6meters in diameter, while the K4 missile is shown as being 1.3 meters in diameter. Ergo, I think, Arihant can carry 8 K4 missiles, not 4.

If you want to send ombaba a message sell some yakhont/brahmos to eyeran and see the massive khujli. Hey it only helps to maintain balance in the region.

If 2 K-4's can be carried in one tube then it makes for an awesome temporary deterrent till K-5 comes along (with 2.5 m diameter).

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 05 Mar 2016 22:12

@Ramana

The newspaper graphic is all wrong, it uses a US Poseidon missile with Indian labling.

Our design will use an aerospike and have MIRV.

Added later - Karan has posted the correct graphic

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Mar 2016 22:19

tsarkar, thanks.

I wanted your comment on nose shape for under water travel.

Should look like a torpedo?

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 05 Mar 2016 23:18

sivaramn wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 309735.ece

advanced version Dhanush, that could be launched from a ship and came with a range of 350 miles.

So the range is now 350 miles from previous 350kms or was it always in miles?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 06 Mar 2016 01:09

Its km

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 06 Mar 2016 06:40

krishna_krishna wrote:This is the first video of an old K-4 launch from DRDO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_feco6 ... e=youtu.be

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 06 Mar 2016 07:30

Gurus just an observation, to my untrained eyes looks like K4 ejection was separate than K15 namely in the nose separation nothing like that happened in K4 so does that mean we have different ways of skinning the cat

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2016 08:05

Glad you saw that. The K-4 has a nose ejection motors which create an air bubble underwater as it travels to surface. This will takes care of underwater side currents etc. Creates a low pressure area.

Can someone post M51 launch videos for analysis?

skaranam · Post by **skaranam** » 06 Mar 2016 08:15

Bheeshma wrote:
If you want to send ombaba a message sell some yakhont/brahmos to eyeran and see the massive khujli. Hey it only helps to maintain balance in the region.

If 2 K-4's can be carried in one tube then it makes for an awesome temporary deterrent till K-5 comes along (with 2.5 m diameter).

or sell / lease MKIs to Afghanistan....after all when F-16 can be used in anti-terror ops, MKIs can be used for the same...

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Mar 2016 08:37

K15 cap; nose is not blunt

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 06 Mar 2016 09:41

Question is, why is the cap required for K-15, which is not air breathing, like the Brahms. For K4 it could be a way to generate gas to reduce the skin friction drag, which in turn would reduce the pressure required to push it out of the launch tubes. Is the K15 cap a
also for just to Hold the gas generator?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Mar 2016 10:07

M-51 video

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Mar 2016 11:27

Does the underwater nose thrust system mean that the K-4 can be fired from very deep depths too - much more than if it was based on purely the VLS gas generator impulse ?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Mar 2016 11:49

I think that Cap is required for K-15 has it has a pointy nose (which may increase under water drag against the skin of the missile) for low altitude (20km) glide while K4 is intended to more of a long range/high altitude Ballistic Missile.

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 06 Mar 2016 14:07

gurujis...

got a link of doc on missile in drdo.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/data/Guided%20Missiles.pdf

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 06 Mar 2016 14:19

Singha wrote:notice the composite grainy plastic texture of all stages above. a must have for efficient weight fraction.

GD have a looksie at the below has some glimpses of tfta production including carbon fibre layering as well as some internal shots of French boomers.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 06 Mar 2016 15:21

maxratul wrote:Did the shaurya missiles actually get inducted?

Does anyone have any info on this? please?

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Mar 2016 19:52

maxratul wrote:
maxratul wrote:Did the shaurya missiles actually get inducted?
Does anyone have any info on this? please?

There is no confirmation available. I am guessing it is not inducted.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 06 Mar 2016 20:21

Why is the K4 launch mechanism creating pressure envelope longer than m51? M51 is clear of background smoke, water and vapor much sooner than K4.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 06 Mar 2016 22:28

Neela wrote:From the K4 news above
A defence scientist said this manoeuvrable missile having an innovative system of interlacing in three dimensions can also cruise at hypersonic speed.
What is interlacing in 3D?

Interlacing means continuous weave pattern as in braided hairstyle. Unlike 1 or 2 twists or bends at terminal stage, in interlacing, the missile make continuous weave patterns not just in terminal stage but in larger portion of its flight trajectory.

Glide vehicle is bounced up and down at the edge of atmosphere, where the movement up and down happens in single plane, so it is One-Dimensional interlacing.

In the same way, simple simultaneous 2-D interlacing could be helical patterns such as helical staircase, helical spring etc.

In 3-D interlacing, the same helix (2-D) is bounced up and down in another plane. Let say that missile is moving in such a way that it is tracing helical spring type pattern. Imagine that you are holding one end of that helical spring and try to bob up and down and change the movement as the trajectory progress,i.e. helix in a helix. If that movement is randomized it give complicated patterns and it happens in such a way that tracking and engaging these missile becomes more arduous.

Interlacing of BM RV is nothing new. As we go by documents released, Cold War era BM did 1-D interlacing.

Unlike terminal BMD application that we are currently engaged in, China is developing Mid-course BMD. This 3-D interlacing helps to defeat such BMD where such weave patterns could start even at the end of ascent phase and before starting of Mid-course phase.

Taking hints and educated guesswork, such interlacing was either applied or studied in A4 missile and probably it is capable of doing such patterns. If not it will do in future. Incidentally both A4 and K4 missile dia is 1.3 m.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 06 Mar 2016 22:47

^Different launch method. K4has a collar gas generator

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 07 Mar 2016 08:07

@Ramana

The blunt nose maximizes volume for an already compact missile.

The hydrodynamic drag is mitigated by gas generator.

The aerodynamic drag is mitigated by aerospike.

MANPADS too need to be compact, so the Russian Igla missile too uses an aerospike. The word Igla means needle, referring to the aerospike.

@Aditya - sea based K15/B05 in service. Land based Shourya not in service because similar roled Agni 1 was inducted only a few years ago. Prahaar missile too was never developed further because of existing investment in Prithvi.

member_28990 · Post by **member_28990** » 07 Mar 2016 08:19

@Aditya G @tsarkar Thank you for the info

I remember that there was a lot of talk a few years back of Shaurya and Prahaar replacing the Agni 1 and the Prithvi missiles. Infact there were claims that the Shaurya had a mach 7.5 flight profile which made it a deadly weapon.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Mar 2016 11:12

SaiK wrote:so for each rv about ~500k in the cap that shivji may chase after. pliss note range = 6k [is then K5?].
also the 3 stages in the dig not clear. [perhaps it is one of those 5th tech doing rounds in the 4th casings]

3rd stage is in the middle of the MIRVs. This is the main reason for rounded nose, to have enough volume for payload + 3rd stage. Same logic as Trident or M51.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 07 Mar 2016 17:35

Waiting for news on the Agni V test.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 07 Mar 2016 19:45

7th NOTAM was for a 750 K missile

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Mar 2016 00:23

EXPRESS EXCLUSIVE: India Test Fires Nuke Capable SLBM K-4 Secretly
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 317185.ece

BALASORE (ODISHA): India has reportedly conducted a test of its home grown intermediate range Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) K-4 secretly from an undersea platform in the Bay of Bengal in a bid to boost its deterrence capability by strengthening the second strike fire power.
Even as the authorities of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are tightlipped about the secret test, a reliable defence source on Tuesday confirmed ‘The Express’ that this nuclear capable missile was fired from a submerged pontoon positioned nearly 30 feet deep sea offshore Vizag coast on Monday.Launched underwater, the missile developed indigenously by the DRDO, surged to the surface leaving behind a ribbon of thick smokes. Although the result of the test was not known, the source claimed it’s take off was smooth as a powerful gas generator successfully ejected it from the pontoon.The first test of the missile was also conducted secretly on March 24, 2014 and the DRDO admitted it officially only in January last year in the Aero-India show. The K-4 missile is best in the world in its class and it is faster and stealthier. Once operational, the two-stage missile will equip the country's first nuclear-powered submarine ANS Arihant.Working very covertly under the secret K-project for last nearly two decades, prime focus of the DRDO was to make the weapon system lighter and faster having both cruise and ballistic variants. A very few countries have the triad of firing nuclear tipped missiles from air, land and undersea. Other countries, which have the capability, include Russia, USA, France, Britain (UK) and China.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2016 01:12

jhujar, So our expectation of INS Arihant will set out with K-4 is correct.

BTW, if the reporter Rout knows about the test and NOTAM was issued, and there are pictures of the flight, whats secret about the test? Why add mystery when it is not there.
By now K4 has been tested from pontoons quite a few times.

Already reported by same reporter last week of impending test:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1988693

So they tested what they said they would.

Next up March15 thereabouts the A-V in canister mode.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Mar 2016 02:36

Why the secrecy? The K-4 video is out in public already. Most likely it was launched by Arihant or was a pontoon launched K-5. Hopefully this year the Arihant is commissioned and S-3 & S-4 hit the trials.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Mar 2016 03:17

May be it was first time launched from Arihant, so secrecy to take all precautions in case of bad news. Hopefully one day we get to see the video in public domain for both friends and foes to see K4 (Kaaldev 4era)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2016 04:08

Also no other news agency reports this 'secret' test.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Mar 2016 04:28

^^ Usually, Hemant Kumar Rout is "da man" for Wheeler Island and seems to have sources from top to bottom there.

Whatever he reports usually starts appearing in other places a week after his reports ( maybe it is officially allowed to be disclosed by then)

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 09 Mar 2016 08:21

So much for the "secret launch", pfst.....

One wonders what "classified" means in Indian dictionary, "don't tell your wife but DDM is fair game"?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2016 10:00

it would be a better secret if they can test one from 3000 ft below

just kidding

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2016 16:43

from written reply in rajya sabha

System
Import Content
(in %)

Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) System (excluding Aircraft)
16
Pilotless Target Aircraft (PTA), Lakshya
5 - 7
Remotely Piloted Vehicle (RPV), Nishant
10
Aircraft Arrester Barrier
5
Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)
40
Combat Free Fall System
35
Parachutes
0
Heavy Drop System
10
Agni Missile
15
Prithvi Missile
15
Akash Missile
10
Nag Missile
30
Supersonic Cruise Missile, BrahMos
65
Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM)
60
Multi Barrel Rocket System-Pinaka
10
MBT Arjun
55
Radars
10
Electronic Warfare Systems
5 – 30
Sonars
5 - 30
Pocket Dosimeter
12
Portable Dose Rate Meter
9
Roentegnometer
6
NBC Recce Vehicle
5

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 09 Mar 2016 17:26

Jhujar wrote:EXPRESS EXCLUSIVE: India Test Fires Nuke Capable SLBM K-4 Secretly
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 317185.ece

BALASORE (ODISHA): India has reportedly conducted a test of its home grown intermediate range Submarine Launched Ballistic Missile (SLBM) K-4 secretly from an undersea platform in the Bay of Bengal in a bid to boost its deterrence capability by strengthening the second strike fire power.
Even as the authorities of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are tightlipped about the secret test, a reliable defence source on Tuesday confirmed ‘The Express’ that this nuclear capable missile was fired from a submerged pontoon positioned nearly 30 feet deep sea offshore Vizag coast on Monday.Launched underwater, the missile developed indigenously by the DRDO, surged to the surface leaving behind a ribbon of thick smokes. Although the result of the test was not known, the source claimed it’s take off was smooth as a powerful gas generator successfully ejected it from the pontoon.The first test of the missile was also conducted secretly on March 24, 2014 and the DRDO admitted it officially only in January last year in the Aero-India show. The K-4 missile is best in the world in its class and it is faster and stealthier. Once operational, the two-stage missile will equip the country's first nuclear-powered submarine ANS Arihant.Working very covertly under the secret K-project for last nearly two decades, prime focus of the DRDO was to make the weapon system lighter and faster having both cruise and ballistic variants. A very few countries have the triad of firing nuclear tipped missiles from air, land and undersea. Other countries, which have the capability, include Russia, USA, France, Britain (UK) and China.

At last we are doing such things in secret without discussing siez,colour and wt of every nut bolt in local newspapers. i like it that way. You test it first and then you bring it out

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Mar 2016 19:47

saw something new today. the iranis fired a BM through a small hole in the roof of a tunnel
in effect the silos are connected underground to a tunnel system with caves for storage. truck mounted BM was fired once the silo door opened

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2016 20:12

ramana wrote:Also no other news agency reports this 'secret' test.

Bharat Karnad tweeted about the secret test today.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Mar 2016 22:05

Ramana, that's not a new picture of the K4 test. Looks more like a screen grab from the previous test on youtube.