Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Mar 2016 22:16

Note:- Brahmos and LRSAM has foreign content way more than LCA which shows that practically no component in Brahmos or LRSAM is indigenous.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Mar 2016 22:22

They both have to be indigenized and the foreign parts replaced with Indian made ones.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Mar 2016 22:22

Brahmos missile (lack of) indigenization is the most dismaying. Looks like all the focus of BAPL was on tests.
LRSAM hardly surprising, the radars and the seeker in the missile are imported. They make up the bulk. In fact, 40% is way higher than I expected!!!

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 09 Mar 2016 22:39

Karan,

you have mentioned in previous posts that India is making big steps in radar indegenisation which is very heartening. Would it be possible to get a summary of the key advances made and what is still missing. Also in terms of production do we have pvt sector coming in a big way ? Also is there a lot of standardisation of parts so that one part can be used in different radars ?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Mar 2016 22:47

The calculation are dis-ingenious. Normally 20% of the total price is Gross Profit Margin, around 20% is for assembly, testing, packing, transportation, insurance, guarantees etc. Hence one can give a statistic of 40% indigenisation without a single component being indigenous. Brahmos, TATRA, LRSAM, Scorpene, vikhr missiles, fuzes, etc are prime examples of such Bogus indigenisation.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 09 Mar 2016 23:47

K4 test: the notam was for 750 kms. So no k4

What we want is the submerged pontoon to be ins arihant

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2016 00:00

Gyan wrote:The calculation are dis-ingenious. Normally 20% of the total price is Gross Profit Margin, around 20% is for assembly, testing, packing, transportation, insurance, guarantees etc. Hence one can give a statistic of 40% indigenisation without a single component being indigenous. Brahmos, TATRA, LRSAM, Scorpene, vikhr missiles, fuzes, etc are prime examples of such Bogus indigenisation.

Your assumption is its around cost, whereas the above is most reasonably, around LRU count instead.
Also, your estimates around GPM are not really accurate since they can vary deal to deal (very high to just reasonable with expectation LCC may make up for it https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Fr ... ner-05266/)

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2016 00:15

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Karan,

you have mentioned in previous posts that India is making big steps in radar indegenisation which is very heartening. Would it be possible to get a summary of the key advances made and what is still missing. Also in terms of production do we have pvt sector coming in a big way ? Also is there a lot of standardisation of parts so that one part can be used in different radars ?

That will require a huge reply and I might bore you.

Basically, the way I look at it, there is design - hardware and software and also overall performance (whether it meets international standards, e.g. we don't want to be deploying 2D radars in an era of 3D or we are stuck at Mechanical antennas when world is ahead)...

We have started from Indra-1 in 1980s in real fashion (earlier, DLRL had a BFSR which was limited by tech of its era and only a middling success, IA took it but it was bulky and not too advanced). Later, LRDE was designated as dedicated radar house and it began (in proper fashion) with Indra-1, which had a lot of issues but was a tremendous learning experience and India's first truly proper in house designed system. It was a 2D system.

Today, inducted systems, include BFSR-SR, Indra 1 and Indra 2, 3D CAR and fully Indian variants (Revathi, Rohini and TCR), Aslesha and Bharani light weight radars, Rajendra radar and variants (including WLR). In many of these systems we have had to grapple with last moment sanctions which coincidentally arrive just when so it happens imports are considered. Eg Rajendras WLR was delayed due to need for indigenization of PCM (critical phase shifter and control module to steer radar arrays) because parts became hard. Coincidentally it so happens at the time we were evaluating imports of rival WLRs! Ultimately the module was developed by DRDO along with IIT Delhi and SSPL.
Some details are here.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/LRDE/E ... chieve.jsp
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/labs/LRDE/E ... asWork.jsp

Next gen of systems in development are AESA systems in bulk. We have crossed a hurdle with JVs of AESA radars for strategic programs but true capability comes when you can design and develop these on your own without foreign hand holding. In this case, for strategic program, JVs were LRTR (GreenPine derived) and MFCR (Thales radar derived). Now, we have completely local programs for Ashwini (low level radar) & MPR (Medium Power radar). These involve everything from design to hardware locally developed and sourced. We might use commercial off the shelf tech to build (say) computers but that is just what the rest of the world does too (eg Thales using AMD whatever processors etc). The critical aspect is to design, develop and test with maximal local sourcing for hard to procure components which is what we do inhouse.

DRDO has made huge strides, with private partners in making the antenna, the power management, the transmitter and recivers, the computers, and the hydraulics plus power supplies. The same handful of firms supply to all these programs. What is heartening to me is that the firms are increasing (private) and there is redundancy. LRDE drives overall program, integration is at BEL (but tomorrow it may be Tata or L&T).

IMHO, the radar success will come when next gen of systems enter service - AESA ones on ground, before which there is AEW&C. Then followed by next gen of airborne and naval radars and also, the IA specific radars which are in trials and will involve extensive testing (hardest because they need to be compact, no vehicle but infantry portable).

Then there are the future programs underway AWACS next gen, and so forth.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 10 Mar 2016 00:22

Thanks Karan. That was useful. Please feel free to add any more info. Not boring at all.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2016 00:23

And the book on SMART antennas was written by Dr. A. Paulraj now at Stanford.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 10 Mar 2016 00:25

I hope we can rope in the pvt sector in a big way to productionise the good work DRDO is doing in radars. I have heard some horros stories about BEL from a friend at WESSE during commissioning the Kolkata.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 10 Mar 2016 00:26

Also is there a serious attempt at standardization of components across different radars ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2016 04:05

Its antenna elements, feed elements and repeaters.
A whole bunch of RF components.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2016 07:28

pic of irani IRBM about to launch through the silo hole in roof

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2016 09:11

Singha wrote:pic of irani IRBM about to launch through the silo hole in roof

Singha check for more pictures in link also a video at the bottom , quite innovative

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1781770.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_aLFpLDACo

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Mar 2016 09:50

GD and Austin, Iran missiles don't belong here.

thanks,

ramana

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 11 Mar 2016 02:40

Indian AF Says New Indigenous Missile Will Be Too Heavy

Posting in full...

India's Air Force has raised objections to the indigenous new generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM) currently in development.

The 60-kilometer-range NGARM, developed by state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), will undertake flight trials in three months but Indian Air Force (IAF) officials say the missile is too bulky.

DRDO is developing NGARM for the service's Mirage-2000H, Jaguar, Su-30 MKI and the upcoming Light Combat Aircraft.

"NGARM being developed by DRDO weighs around 140 kilograms and is too heavy, whereas IAF wants only such missiles that do not weigh over 100 kilograms; this one will not meet our requirement," said a senior Air Force official.

"DRDO has never kept us in the loop about this missile, and we are not sure if we will at all use it," the IAF official said, adding, "infrared radiation seeker technology from Russia will make it too bulky."

However, one DRDO scientist said the missile should meet all Air Force fighter requirements: "We will make sure it is proven successful."

He claimed that NGARM is largely an indigenous missile. But one DRDO source said the agency could not develop the missile on its own and that DRDO has sought help from Russia for seeker technology.

NGARM's broadband seeker is able to pick up radiation or signals emitted by radars and communication systems, home onto the target and destroy the network.

DRDO scientists will undertake ground testing of NGARM next month and by June two prototypes will be ready for captive flight trials on Su-30 MKI aircraft to validate its seeker, structural integrity, navigation and control system, and aerodynamic capability, officials said.

DRDO for the first time is using a dual-pulse propulsion system instead of thrust propulsion for the NGARM, said a DRDO scientist.

NGARM is a single-stage, solid-fueled system and is expected to be ready for induction in the next three years. It will be produced jointly by state-owned Bharat Dynamics and Bharat Electronics.

NGARM will carry sensors and an RF seeker in its head, and a fixed antenna on its nose to detect radar by tracking its electro-magnetic radiation.

Currently the Air Force equips its Su-30 MKI fighters with the Russian Kh 35 missile, and uses the French Martel anti-radiation missile on its Jaguar and Mirage aircraft.

The Air Force also is negotiating to buy AGM 88 missiles from the US and plans to induct more than 1,500 in the next five years.

Alongside NGARM, DRDO is also planning to develop a ground-based anti-radiation missile to be launched from a mobile launcher but no details have been made public.

The article reeks of errors. Kh-35 is an ARM? I am no expert, but how does an IR seeker pick up RF signals?

NGARM has been in the news for at least 2 years now. It is really disingenuous on IAF to say that they were never kept in the loop. When did the range of the missile drop to 60Km from 100Km?

Will Russia, allow HARM missiles to be integrated in to Su-30? The article sounds like a poorly written planted one just before NGARM takes to the flight.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Mar 2016 02:51

^^^

Import lobbying!

For one, that article is complaining about 140kg weight of NGARM where the IAF wants one less than 100kg. But then later in the article, it states that the IAF wants to buy AGG-88 HARM from US ... but conveniently forgets that it weights 350kg

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Mar 2016 02:53

Zynda wrote:The article reeks of errors. Kh-35 is an ARM? I am no expert, but how does an IR seeker pick up RF signals?

Dual seeker. The ARM guides it through most of the flight while the IIR is for the terminal stage (esp. if the radar shuts down).

NGARM has been in the news for at least 2 years now. It is really disingenuous on IAF to say that they were never kept in the loop. When did the range of the missile drop to 60Km from 100Km?

100-125 km according to -

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 245955.ece
http://m.ibtimes.co.in/drdo-soon-begin- ... ile-667326

More absurd, if true, is the insistence on a 100 kg missile, when even a normal BVR missile weighs 150 kg+.

Will Russia, allow HARM missiles to be integrated in to Su-30? The article sounds like a poorly written planted one just before NGARM takes to the flight.

Probably related to the Mirage 2000 and the new MMRCA that the IAF is planning.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Mar 2016 03:58

DRDO should work with navy and adapt this for ASuW that will get IAF to stop complaining and jump back in bandwagon.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 11 Mar 2016 07:29

.

I think the AGM 88 only for Jaguars.. It already have array of US weapons like CBU 105, Harpoon .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2016 07:34

no idea what the iaf or the arms agents are babbling about.

AGM88E = 361 kg
ALARM = 268 kg
ARMAT = 550 kg

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 11 Mar 2016 08:07

These so calle IAF Statements need to be investigate seriously and exemplary punishment given

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Mar 2016 08:52

Zynda wrote:Indian AF Says New Indigenous Missile Will Be Too Heavy

"said a senior Air Force official."

..in other news

.this senior Air Force official was appointed the most important spokesperson and decision maker of the IAF. In a secret ceremony on the banks of the Yamuna ACM Arup Raha, Raksha Mantri Manohar Parikker and Narendra Modi did aarti and washed his feet while anointing him with the sacred saffron cloth that made him the spokesman for IAF with direct rights to report to "defensenews.com"

I will bet my left testimonial that his name will never be revealed anytime soon

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Mar 2016 09:14

In related news, unnamed senior IAF official said the indigenous missile will be too light. Calling its weight as only 100 kg, the senior official said other missiles were heavier and hence performed better. The HARM is imported said the unnamed official and it can achieve its range with only one motor, whereas DRDO had to put into two lightweight motors which no other missile in its class has. Calling the other options as better, he further commented, look at the Indian missile, it has two seekers to find the target and kill it. The Russian one only has one, to find a ship and kill it, while clearly ships carry more people than radars so the value of the Russian missile is more. When asked for clarification about land based ships, the unnamed official said look at SQR, page 22, paragraph 3 and fine print.

yeh nahin to woh sahin

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Mar 2016 09:45

^This sources thing should be banned from the media first and foremost. Even traitors can be sources for these presstitutes. Only people who have the courage to stand by their words should heard in the first place. Ban "sources."

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 11 Mar 2016 10:02

Dude, there is no need for any source.

Sources told me that IAF is upset with the light weight of the missile. The source added that it makes the personal on the ground lazy lifting light weight on their shoulders before fitting the missile on the aircraft. If DRDO is allowed to make the missiles lighter and faster every one will be carrying one one nukes in their hands.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 11 Mar 2016 10:06

While we are at it, a source told me that IAF has been feeding its fighters extra protien so that they can carry the heavier mijjiles farther along and deliver the load properly.

#couldnotresist

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 11 Mar 2016 10:39

I just dont understand why it is a certain left testimonial that is always betted upon, on the chopping block, tied to all kite flying. What has the right one ever done for the country? Does it have friends in high places? Equality demands that this bangalore, kerala roulette be played with alternate testimonials. #LeftTestimonialsMatter. #LeaveTheTestimonialsAlone. #LeftTestimonialForPrejident!

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 11 Mar 2016 10:49

^Testimonial intolerance will lead to some celebrity left testimonials to retreat into the abdomen due to fear of the chopping block.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 11 Mar 2016 11:57

Singha wrote:pic of irani IRBM about to launch through the silo hole in roof

Isn't it funny how the Agni-4 has the same mass as this one but is taller and carries 1 tonne payload to more than twice the range. Shows how important it is to have all composite casing.

Al-qadr
1700-2000km range Weighs 17tons 16m tall 650kg warhead

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Mar 2016 12:48

Singha wrote:no idea what the iaf or the arms agents are babbling about.

AGM88E = 361 kg
ALARM = 268 kg
ARMAT = 550 kg

And the current IAF staple, the Kh-31 iirc, weighs about 600+kg! And they want an ARM of less than 100kg - absolute idiocy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2016 13:20

even a WVR AAM like python5 is 103kg!!

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 11 Mar 2016 13:40

And the book on SMART antennas was written by Dr. A. Paulraj now at Stanford.

And Ex Indian Navy to boot

WiFi, WiMax, LTE pretty much owns the patent to all of them I believe. Not to forget the Indian Navy Sonar Program exists because of him.

He defines "Brain Drain"

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Mar 2016 13:40

I would not pay too much attention to this news on IAF demanding lighter NGRAM.

Bashing armed forces is the new campaign of the "tolerant" camp! People who have done nothing to promote Indian products are trying to find holes in the Make in India initiative to malign current govt and armed forces.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 11 Mar 2016 15:37

These are unnamed officials onlee hence I don't see any need to come to a conclusion.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 Mar 2016 16:36

shiv wrote:
Zynda wrote:Indian AF Says New Indigenous Missile Will Be Too Heavy

"said a senior Air Force official."
..in other news
.this senior Air Force official was appointed the most important spokesperson and decision maker of the IAF. In a secret ceremony on the banks of the Yamuna ACM Arup Raha, Raksha Mantri Manohar Parikker and Narendra Modi did aarti and washed his feet while anointing him with the sacred saffron cloth that made him the spokesman for IAF with direct rights to report to "defensenews.com"

I will bet my left testimonial that his name will never be revealed anytime soon

Gyan Paid News Agency

Senior Air Force on the Condition of anonymity said that new NGARM being developed by DRDO weights only 1 gram, has range of 1 million light years and uses anti-gravity & telepathic seekers which will enable the missile to destroy any target anywhere in our Galaxy. Pilot can hit the targets just by thinking about it while sitting in the aircraft. But on being closely questioned whether IAF is ordering the missile, he admitted that though IAF is fully enthusiastic about the missile but has asked DRDO to improve the missile to hit targets in nearby Galaxies also, in case there is multi front multi Galaxy Super War. As per PTI, presently missile is undergoing test in the undisclosed nearby Black hole to test its ruggedness in adverse conditions.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Mar 2016 17:24

^^

Thank god they didnt ask for missile which can hit a target in past or future.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Mar 2016 17:42

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kh-35
"Weight 520 kg (1,150 lb)[2]
610 kg (1,340 lb)[2] (heli version)"

http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /81577760/

"Currently the Air Force equips its Su-30 MKI fighters with the Russian Kh 35 missile, and uses the French Martel anti-radiation missile on its Jaguar and Mirage aircraft."

""NGARM being developed by DRDO weighs around 140 kilograms and is too heavy, whereas IAF wants only such missiles that do not weigh over 100 kilograms; this one will not meet our requirement," said a senior Air Force official."

I very much doubt that this was said by a serving "Senior IAF offcial". It's not a pitch for the AGM-88, more likely IAI.

BTW, the AGM-88 seems to weigh more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-88_HARM
"Weight 355 kilograms (783 lb)"

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 11 Mar 2016 19:20

MN Kumar wrote:These are unnamed officials onlee hence I don't see any need to come to a conclusion.

Sometimes I feel these unnamed sources just play with these news reporters. While reading TOIlet over TOIlet they would be thinking ..that was fun..
although vivek raghuvanshi is not a new kid on a block..