IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Mar 2016 07:08

Ejoying the intellectual masturbation. Every foreign equipment comes with limitations and shackles. The only aircraft that comes with no shackles is the LCA. Indians need to learn to believe in themselves. The LCA needs to be exploited to full potential. To build a potent fleet, invest in MKI spares so that they can be available at 90% or so. A 40% increase means an additional 100 planes available.

40 MK1 and 500 MK1A should be ordered. IN should order 100 NLCA Mk2s.

member_28880 · Post by **member_28880** » 27 Mar 2016 07:24

Want to close the Rafale deal as early as possible: Parrikar

http://defenceaviationpost.com/2016/03/ ... -parrikar/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Mar 2016 07:26

SUDIPT wrote:Want to close the Rafale deal as early as possible: Parrikar

http://defenceaviationpost.com/2016/03/ ... -parrikar/

er what does "close" mean?

member_28880 · Post by **member_28880** » 27 Mar 2016 07:34

^+1

member_28880 · Post by **member_28880** » 27 Mar 2016 08:20

Amrika have gradually destroyed all of it's ally's aviation industry (Israel, UK, Australia, Canada, Germany) by the same practice, as it is around the corner now. So all the excitement about F-athra n F-paintish, if gonna be true will force us to forget, additional LCAs and further AMCAs in coming future.

If there is any additional prod. line, it shud be a Raffy one, as it got selected by IAF in a very exhaustive process. If not fitting to ur balance sheet, then put major of ur health n wealth in LCAs and further AMCAs. It's a better option than shoving all the rotten beans , for any Amrikan beauty.

member_29294 · Post by **member_29294** » 27 Mar 2016 21:24

Vivek K wrote:Ejoying the intellectual masturbation. Every foreign equipment comes with limitations and shackles. The only aircraft that comes with no shackles is the LCA. Indians need to learn to believe in themselves. The LCA needs to be exploited to full potential. To build a potent fleet, invest in MKI spares so that they can be available at 90% or so. A 40% increase means an additional 100 planes available.

40 MK1 and 500 MK1A should be ordered. IN should order 100 NLCA Mk2s.

A fighter jet that uses an American Engine will always come with shackles. Until Kaveri is ready, there won't be a truly indigenous product flying. That might take 10 years.

People here talking about inducting X numbers of LCA and X numbers of Su-30MKI, don't seem to realize that it is IAF which has specifically requested a modern mid-sized fighter jet. So you either have to trust them in their judgement of air force planning or you don't, it is that simple. This is their prerogative which they have been pushing for over a decade, and no one is more qualified then them to plan an air fleet. And new MoD is determined to finally fulfill their request, so the question is not if but what and when they are inducting.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Mar 2016 21:43

So you either have to trust them in their judgement of air force planning or you don't, it is that simple. This is their prerogative which they have been pushing for over a decade, and no one is more qualified then them to plan an air fleet.

IAF does force planning.
MoD does process management?
FinMin allocates and pays for everything.

And, tax payers, if things get out of hand, question all these entities. The Rafale, is deemed, by some tax payers, to be too expensive. Thus the legit questions.

Everyone is playing their roles without stepping on the others toes.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 27 Mar 2016 22:29

Gyan wrote:USD 9 Billion dollars can get us around 9000 Nirbahy missiles. The Total Cost of 36 Rafales can get us 20,000 Nirbhay Missiles. What can 36 Rafales do, which 20,000 Nirbhay Missiles (supported by LCA, Su-30MKI) Cannot do?

Nirbhays cannot carry aviators wearing RayBans

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Mar 2016 12:42

So much time and money has been wasted on this jinxed acquisition,the nation would be better off with acquiring more aircraft of types in service and accelerate "any which way,production of the LCA". If we ,the MOD,IAF,etc.,are so mentally unbalanced as to want the US's cast-offs,that too sev. years after they were first rejected for the MMRCA,why not manufacture more Jags,MKis,MIG-29s and even buy second-hand M2Ks? After all only 126 "medium" aircraft are needed before 5th-gen fighters are needed and the great brown hope ,the LCA is meant to replace cheap legacy MIGs.

Imagine the time it will take to acquire anything new other than the Rafale.The Dear Lord forbid.If only the finicky French climb down on the price and club the deal with other items in an acceptable affordable "package".It would end our misery.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Mar 2016 17:52

Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
So what's new? The crisis has been known for around a decade now and crisis could turn into catastrophe if remedial measures are not taken asap.This report acknowledges in its recommendations that a key factor is cost,as it suggests that we buy the "cheapest" Western med fighter plus continue with the FGFA,limiting Tejas to just 6 sqds. With this medicine from Dr.Tell-us,there's no drug called "Rafale" in his prescription!

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia ... cid=onepro

Washington: India's traditional air superiority is now under "threat" as China and Pakistan are rapidly modernising their air force, a top US think-tank warned on Monday, underlining that resolving the "crisis" should be a priority for the government.

"Despite being a world-class combat arm, the IAF's falling end strength and problematic force structure, combined with its troubled acquisition and development programs, threaten India's air superiority over its rapidly modernising rivals, China and Pakistan," said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the top American expert on India and South Asia, whose counsel is sought by governments in both the countries, the report "The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force" argues that Indian air dominance is vital for deterrence stability in southern Asia and for preserving the strategic balance in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Resolving India's airpower crisis, therefore, should be a priority for New Delhi," Tellis says in his report running in more than 60 pages.

The IAF's fighter force, as of early 2016, is weaker than the numbers suggest, the report said, adding that at nominally 36.5 squadrons, it is well short of its sanctioned strength, and many of its frontline aircraft are obsolete.

China and Pakistan field about 750 advanced air defense/ multirole fighters against the IAF's 450-odd equivalents, the report said.

Though, the airfield infrastructure limitations in Tibet prevent China from bringing all of its air capabilities to bear against India, yet after 2025, China could be able to deploy anywhere between 300 and 400 sophisticated aircraft against India, in addition to the 100 to 200 advanced fighters likely to exist in Pakistan by then, it said.

"The IAF's desire for 4245 squadrons by 2027 some 750800 aircraft is compelling, if India is to preserve the airpower superiority it has enjoyed in southern Asia since 1971," it said, recommending that India needs to safeguard its regional air superiority over both Pakistan and China by mustering the requisite end strength and enhancing its extant operational advantages.

The IAF's likelihood of reaching its 2027 goal with a high
proportion of advanced fighters is poor, Tellis concluded in
his report.

"It is stymied by serious constraints on India's defense budget, the impediments imposed by the acquisition process, the meager achievements of the country's domestic development organisations, the weaknesses of the higher defense management system, and India's inability to reconcile the need for self-sufficiency in defense production with the necessity of maintaining technological superiority over rivals," it said.

The IAF is attempting to reach its desired end strength by acquiring the Tejas Mark 1 to beef up its lightweight segment, filling out the remainder of its Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase in its medium-weight segment, and continuing with the Su-30MKI acquisition and the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) co-development programs to sustain its heavyweight segment, the report noted.

Tellis said that all three tiers of the IAF are currently in trouble.

The Tejas Mark 1 is handicapped by significant technological deficiencies; the prospects for expanding the MMRCA component to compensate for the Tejas's shortcomings are unclear; and the IAF's reluctance to proceed fully with the PAK-FA programme could undermine its fifth generation fighter ambitions.

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available.

India should also reassess the decision to develop the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft indigenously and avoid weakening the collaboration with Russia on the PAK-FA programme, the report recommends.

It recommends that India should expand its investments in advanced munitions, combat support aircraft, electronic warfare, physical infrastructure, and pilot proficiencyall current strengths while being realistic about its domestic capacity to produce sophisticated combat aircraft.

"Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available," Tellis said in his report.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Mar 2016 18:01

Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available,"

Ouch.

member_28756 · Post by **member_28756** » 28 Mar 2016 18:04

Philip wrote:Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
So what's new? The crisis has been known for around a decade now and crisis could turn into catastrophe if remedial measures are not taken asap.This report acknowledges in its recommendations that a key factor is cost,as it suggests that we buy the "cheapest" Western med fighter plus continue with the FGFA,limiting Tejas to just 6 sqds. With this medicine from Dr.Tell-us,there's no drug called "Rafale" in his prescription!

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia ... cid=onepro
Washington: India's traditional air superiority is now under "threat" as China and Pakistan are rapidly modernising their air force, a top US think-tank warned on Monday, underlining that resolving the "crisis" should be a priority for the government.

"Despite being a world-class combat arm, the IAF's falling end strength and problematic force structure, combined with its troubled acquisition and development programs, threaten India's air superiority over its rapidly modernising rivals, China and Pakistan," said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the top American expert on India and South Asia, whose counsel is sought by governments in both the countries, the report "The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force" argues that Indian air dominance is vital for deterrence stability in southern Asia and for preserving the strategic balance in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Resolving India's airpower crisis, therefore, should be a priority for New Delhi," Tellis says in his report running in more than 60 pages.

The IAF's fighter force, as of early 2016, is weaker than the numbers suggest, the report said, adding that at nominally 36.5 squadrons, it is well short of its sanctioned strength, and many of its frontline aircraft are obsolete.

China and Pakistan field about 750 advanced air defense/ multirole fighters against the IAF's 450-odd equivalents, the report said.

Though, the airfield infrastructure limitations in Tibet prevent China from bringing all of its air capabilities to bear against India, yet after 2025, China could be able to deploy anywhere between 300 and 400 sophisticated aircraft against India, in addition to the 100 to 200 advanced fighters likely to exist in Pakistan by then, it said.

"The IAF's desire for 4245 squadrons by 2027 some 750800 aircraft is compelling, if India is to preserve the airpower superiority it has enjoyed in southern Asia since 1971," it said, recommending that India needs to safeguard its regional air superiority over both Pakistan and China by mustering the requisite end strength and enhancing its extant operational advantages.

The IAF's likelihood of reaching its 2027 goal with a high
proportion of advanced fighters is poor, Tellis concluded in
his report.

"It is stymied by serious constraints on India's defense budget, the impediments imposed by the acquisition process, the meager achievements of the country's domestic development organisations, the weaknesses of the higher defense management system, and India's inability to reconcile the need for self-sufficiency in defense production with the necessity of maintaining technological superiority over rivals," it said.

The IAF is attempting to reach its desired end strength by acquiring the Tejas Mark 1 to beef up its lightweight segment, filling out the remainder of its Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase in its medium-weight segment, and continuing with the Su-30MKI acquisition and the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) co-development programs to sustain its heavyweight segment, the report noted.

Tellis said that all three tiers of the IAF are currently in trouble.

The Tejas Mark 1 is handicapped by significant technological deficiencies; the prospects for expanding the MMRCA component to compensate for the Tejas's shortcomings are unclear; and the IAF's reluctance to proceed fully with the PAK-FA programme could undermine its fifth generation fighter ambitions.

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available.

India should also reassess the decision to develop the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft indigenously and avoid weakening the collaboration with Russia on the PAK-FA programme, the report recommends.

It recommends that India should expand its investments in advanced munitions, combat support aircraft, electronic warfare, physical infrastructure, and pilot proficiencyall current strengths while being realistic about its domestic capacity to produce sophisticated combat aircraft.

"Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available," Tellis said in his report.

Ok translation..... Please buy F-16 or F-18 ASAP.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Mar 2016 18:11

NRao wrote:
Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available,"
Ouch.

Tellis is Telling that buy US fighters and the then he will Tell the Chinese that IAF is the most Telling air force in the Khitta. Otherwise, Tellis will give IAF 32 out of 100 in 2027. Bleddy Fail just like Rafale.

Philip wrote:...

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available...

P.S. Tellis baba took 60 pages to tell the above. Me did it in less than 60 words. Now what is that Louise Ciccone song - "Papa don't ..."

member_27845 · Post by **member_27845** » 28 Mar 2016 18:20

While we are at it , how come there are no crashes of the Mig 21s or Bisons any more , at least in the last 2-3 years ?

I would think that they are still being flown in training missions at the same rate as before

So have they become more air worthy or there are fewer pilot errors ?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Mar 2016 18:39

VijayR wrote:While we are at it , how come there are no crashes of the Mig 21s or Bisons any more , at least in the last 2-3 years ?

I would think that they are still being flown in training missions at the same rate as before

So have they become more air worthy or there are fewer pilot errors ?

Oye! Watch what you are saying Sir ji. Data and facts on the crashes are available on the Mil Flight Safety thread. Pliss not to jinx a safe run. I have friends flying.

Anyways, Summer is just heating up...

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Mar 2016 19:34

Philip wrote:Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
So what's new? The crisis has been known for around a decade now and crisis could turn into catastrophe if remedial measures are not taken asap.This report acknowledges in its recommendations that a key factor is cost,as it suggests that we buy the "cheapest" Western med fighter plus continue with the FGFA,limiting Tejas to just 6 sqds. With this medicine from Dr.Tell-us,there's no drug called "Rafale" in his prescription!

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia ... cid=onepro
Washington: India's traditional air superiority is now under "threat" as China and Pakistan are rapidly modernising their air force, a top US think-tank warned on Monday, underlining that resolving the "crisis" should be a priority for the government.

"Despite being a world-class combat arm, the IAF's falling end strength and problematic force structure, combined with its troubled acquisition and development programs, threaten India's air superiority over its rapidly modernising rivals, China and Pakistan," said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the top American expert on India and South Asia, whose counsel is sought by governments in both the countries, the report "The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force" argues that Indian air dominance is vital for deterrence stability in southern Asia and for preserving the strategic balance in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Resolving India's airpower crisis, therefore, should be a priority for New Delhi," Tellis says in his report running in more than 60 pages.

The IAF's fighter force, as of early 2016, is weaker than the numbers suggest, the report said, adding that at nominally 36.5 squadrons, it is well short of its sanctioned strength, and many of its frontline aircraft are obsolete.

China and Pakistan field about 750 advanced air defense/ multirole fighters against the IAF's 450-odd equivalents, the report said.

Though, the airfield infrastructure limitations in Tibet prevent China from bringing all of its air capabilities to bear against India, yet after 2025, China could be able to deploy anywhere between 300 and 400 sophisticated aircraft against India, in addition to the 100 to 200 advanced fighters likely to exist in Pakistan by then, it said.

"The IAF's desire for 4245 squadrons by 2027 some 750800 aircraft is compelling, if India is to preserve the airpower superiority it has enjoyed in southern Asia since 1971," it said, recommending that India needs to safeguard its regional air superiority over both Pakistan and China by mustering the requisite end strength and enhancing its extant operational advantages.

The IAF's likelihood of reaching its 2027 goal with a high
proportion of advanced fighters is poor, Tellis concluded in
his report.

"It is stymied by serious constraints on India's defense budget, the impediments imposed by the acquisition process, the meager achievements of the country's domestic development organisations, the weaknesses of the higher defense management system, and India's inability to reconcile the need for self-sufficiency in defense production with the necessity of maintaining technological superiority over rivals," it said.

The IAF is attempting to reach its desired end strength by acquiring the Tejas Mark 1 to beef up its lightweight segment, filling out the remainder of its Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase in its medium-weight segment, and continuing with the Su-30MKI acquisition and the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) co-development programs to sustain its heavyweight segment, the report noted.

Tellis said that all three tiers of the IAF are currently in trouble.

The Tejas Mark 1 is handicapped by significant technological deficiencies; the prospects for expanding the MMRCA component to compensate for the Tejas's shortcomings are unclear; and the IAF's reluctance to proceed fully with the PAK-FA programme could undermine its fifth generation fighter ambitions.

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available.

India should also reassess the decision to develop the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft indigenously and avoid weakening the collaboration with Russia on the PAK-FA programme, the report recommends.

It recommends that India should expand its investments in advanced munitions, combat support aircraft, electronic warfare, physical infrastructure, and pilot proficiencyall current strengths while being realistic about its domestic capacity to produce sophisticated combat aircraft.

"Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available," Tellis said in his report.

Wow !!! Don't do Tejas and dont do AMCA. Just buy cheapest MMRCA competitor in large numbers. Hahahahahahaha. Can't help admiring the effort

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Mar 2016 20:01

Philip wrote:Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
So what's new? T has been known for around a decade now and crisis could turn into catastrophe if remedial measures are not taken asap.This report acknowledges in its recommendations that a key factor is cost,as it suggests that we buy the "cheapest" Western med fighter plus continue with the FGFA,limiting Tejas to just 6 sqds. With this medicine from Dr.Tell-us,there's no drug called "Rafale" in his prescription!

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia ... cid=onepro
Washington: India's traditional air superiority is now under "threat" as China and Pakistan are rapidly modernising their air force, a top US think-tank warned on Monday, underlining that resolving the "crisis" should be a priority for the government.

"Despite being a world-class combat arm, the IAF's falling end strength and problematic force structure, combined with its troubled acquisition and development programs, threaten India's air superiority over its rapidly modernising rivals, China and Pakistan," said the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Authored by Ashley Tellis, the top American expert on India and South Asia, whose counsel is sought by governments in both the countries, the report "The Manifold Travails of the Indian Air Force" argues that Indian air dominance is vital for deterrence stability in southern Asia and for preserving the strategic balance in the Indo-Pacific region.

"Resolving India's airpower crisis, therefore, should be a priority for New Delhi," Tellis says in his report running in more than 60 pages.

The IAF's fighter force, as of early 2016, is weaker than the numbers suggest, the report said, adding that at nominally 36.5 squadrons, it is well short of its sanctioned strength, and many of its frontline aircraft are obsolete.

China and Pakistan field about 750 advanced air defense/ multirole fighters against the IAF's 450-odd equivalents, the report said.

Though, the airfield infrastructure limitations in Tibet prevent China from bringing all of its air capabilities to bear against India, yet after 2025, China could be able to deploy anywhere between 300 and 400 sophisticated aircraft against India, in addition to the 100 to 200 advanced fighters likely to exist in Pakistan by then, it said.

"The IAF's desire for 4245 squadrons by 2027 some 750800 aircraft is compelling, if India is to preserve the airpower superiority it has enjoyed in southern Asia since 1971," it said, recommending that India needs to safeguard its regional air superiority over both Pakistan and China by mustering the requisite end strength and enhancing its extant operational advantages.

The IAF's likelihood of reaching its 2027 goal with a high
proportion of advanced fighters is poor, Tellis concluded in
his report.

"It is stymied by serious constraints on India's defense budget, the impediments imposed by the acquisition process, the meager achievements of the country's domestic development organisations, the weaknesses of the higher defense management system, and India's inability to reconcile the need for self-sufficiency in defense production with the necessity of maintaining technological superiority over rivals," it said.

The IAF is attempting to reach its desired end strength by acquiring the Tejas Mark 1 to beef up its lightweight segment, filling out the remainder of its Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) purchase in its medium-weight segment, and continuing with the Su-30MKI acquisition and the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) co-development programs to sustain its heavyweight segment, the report noted.

Tellis said that all three tiers of the IAF are currently in trouble.

The Tejas Mark 1 is handicapped by significant technological deficiencies; the prospects for expanding the MMRCA component to compensate for the Tejas's shortcomings are unclear; and the IAF's reluctance to proceed fully with the PAK-FA programme could undermine its fifth generation fighter ambitions.

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available.

India should also reassess the decision to develop the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft indigenously and avoid weakening the collaboration with Russia on the PAK-FA programme, the report recommends.

It recommends that India should expand its investments in advanced munitions, combat support aircraft, electronic warfare, physical infrastructure, and pilot proficiencyall current strengths while being realistic about its domestic capacity to produce sophisticated combat aircraft.

"Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available," Tellis said in his report.

Wow !!! Don't do Tejas and dont do AMCA. Just buy cheapest MMRCA competitor in large numbers. Hahahahahahaha. Can't help admiring the effort

at least we know where crap can come from !!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Mar 2016 20:03

So easy to turn someone

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 28 Mar 2016 20:07

Tellis saying such things I can accept. After all he is consulted by governments (and I am not).

However, what I am truely astounded by is the one singular fact that others - other than Indians - have been tooting: India will have a great economic growth and become one of top three economy in the world.

How does, then, one even dream about making such a nation deliberately reliant in any area? Yo, at some point in time such an economy will eat you alive. It has nothing to do with H-1 visas, MMRCA, LCA OR any plane, it is simple math.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2016 20:45

Akshay Kapoor saar, By lowering the IAF inventory, India is also lowering the threshold. Let the PRC do whatever they want.
Stick to LCA and AMCA.
Preferable with new kaveri engine.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Mar 2016 20:56

Akshay Kapoor wrote: Indian Air Force is in crisis, says US think tank
So what's new? The crisis has been known for around a decade now and crisis could turn into catastrophe if remedial measures are not taken asap.This report acknowledges in its recommendations that a key factor is cost,as it suggests that we buy the "cheapest" Western med fighter plus continue with the FGFA,limiting Tejas to just 6 sqds. With this medicine from Dr.Tell-us,there's no drug called "Rafale" in his prescription!

http://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia ... cid=onepro

Wow !!! Don't do Tejas and dont do AMCA. Just buy cheapest MMRCA competitor in large numbers. Hahahahahahaha. Can't help admiring the effort

Only a banana republic will get this kind of article.

India France relation is independent and not connected with any other country.
Similarly India Russia.
So Indian purchase of MMRCA and FGFA is independent and not connected with other countries.

So a third country commenting on Indian relations with other country is odd and must be rebutted

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 Mar 2016 21:32

and the IAF's reluctance to proceed fully with the PAK-FA programme could undermine its fifth generation fighter ambitions.

So the heavy tier is doing fine for now, at least. Not to forget sanctions from USA.
link
From tejas.gov.in

We bridged the gap between first and fourth in one single project. And more than 80% of the technology of the LCA was developed in the country. In the most difficult time when there were sanctions from USA, we developed the most crucial controllers, hardware, software, tested, validated and made it error proof and we flew the aircraft. The most important thing is that we developed a lot of technologies. And these technologies have been used not just in LCA but in IJT and Saras and many other projects.
..
the biggest thing is that we created the ecosystem for aviation in India. Earlier there was no ecosystem for aviation in India.
..
One was to work on the control laws. We tested on a modified F16 aircraft in USA. One of the comments of the test pilot from the Pentagon was that the F16 flies better with LCA control laws. Even the aerodynamics of the aircraft was excellent. It gave a lot of confidence to our pilot. I never wanted to side step any testing. I felt that you must test until you give confidence to the airworthiness team and to the pilots. So the whole testing process went on for a year.

Read it all from First page. Not that F-16 is better or worse, but fact is that LCA flies well right from the beginning and testing has been very thorough.

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Mar 2016 22:18

And best to forget the fancy for "5th gen" .. 6th gen fighters are coming around .... and many countries jumping onto 6th gen unmanned platforms ( UK-France ; Japan ; even Sweden ) .PAK FA not being a true blue stealth fighter but can certainly replace a Rafale at least in most aspects ?!

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2016 03:45

deejay wrote:
Indian policymakers must especially guard against the temptation to prioritise indigenous design and manufacture over the imperative of providing the IAF's able pilots with the best fighters available,"
Tellis is Telling that buy US fighters and the then he will Tell the Chinese that IAF is the most Telling air force in the Khitta. Otherwise, Tellis will give IAF 32 out of 100 in 2027. Bleddy Fail just like Rafale.

Philip wrote:...

The Carnegie report recommends that the IAF should revisit some aspects of its current approach and should be cautious about expanding the Tejas acquisition beyond six squadrons and consider enlarging the MMRCA component with the cheapest fourth-generation-plus Western fighter available...
P.S. Tellis baba took 60 pages to tell the above. Me did it in less than 60 words. Now what is that Louise Ciccone song - "Papa don't ..."

Part of the problem has been with the attitude (both official and unofficial) shown in the public by the IAF regarding indigenous products like the LCA. There was no need for IAF chiefs to call LCA publicly "3-legged Cheetah" or "MiG-21++" or it's no MRCA or "no Plan B" etc. There hasn't been as much strong vocal support for the LCA from the service as the name calling (perfect soundbites) goes. One gets the perception that they are being burdened with it. That has only given ammo to these foreign lobbyist and Indian DDMs to suggest those absurd recommendations. The IAF needs to officially call out those DDMs putting false information (by using unnamed IAF officials) and refute them publicly. There is a need for the armed forces, MoD/GoI and DRDO/HAL to be better trained on interacting with the media and having official spokesperson to regular disseminate official information and other clarifications. Lack of this, the DDMs are having a field day!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2016 05:14

In the mid 70s IAF decided to become a fighter force. What that means is they will use the plane for strike also. What this did was to reduce the force to a flying acrobatics force. All they care is how many Gs and how tight the circle is.
Not if they can kill the enemy dead.
I was told the Canberras were retired while still having some useful life lest they will reduce the number of fighter planes.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Mar 2016 05:30

The problem I have with Tellis' article is that he has looked at it only from the IAF's POV - who is going to argue against that the IAF pilots need the very best? Or that the IAF needs to reduce costs, in a jiffy (buy more MMRCA - which just BTW does not exist any longer!!!!)? At a reduced risk (re-eval LCA and AMCA)? All great points.

However, at the risk of shutting down the Indian MIC. IF one takes away the LCA and AMCA, what is left? Outside of IC missiles and a few CMs and Nag (if that survives), etc? OK, ships. No tanks, no planes? What kind of a nation would it be with an economy that is one of the largest and dependent on others for security?

I have no problem with him trying to sell. I expect Indians to sell the LCA/AMCA/other items - that is to be expected.

How does this guy sleep recommending that the Indian MIC be shut down?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2016 06:40

ramana wrote:In the mid 70s IAF decided to become a fighter force. What that means is they will use the plane for strike also. What this did was to reduce the force to a flying acrobatics force. All they care is how many Gs and how tight the circle is.
Not if they can kill the enemy dead.
I was told the Canberras were retired while still having some useful life lest they will reduce the number of fighter planes.

ramana - that is unfair and possibly a little ignorant. The entire world moved towards "multirole fighter bombers" in a gradual evolution after the 70s. This is documented in the history of military aviation for reasons that we can discuss in due course in another thread. But the IAF selected and still flies the Jaguar that has virtually no capability other than strike. Jaguars probably constitute 20-25% of our fleet strength. What does that tell you? We are still using MiG 27s. We took a Russian Su-30 and demanded air-to ground role for it. Loads of 16 dumb bombs, LGBs and now Brahmos. What does that say? How far different is that from the upgraded multirole "Strike Eagle" F-15s that some in America say should be used rather than F-35? Initially the US produced the F-15 and F-16 both of which were exactly what you say, both converted to multirole later. In Europe, after the Jaguar the Italian, Spanish and other aero Industries virtually pulled out of independent fighter design leaving France and the UK +consortiums. What did they make? Multirole Tornado, Multirole Mirage 2000. Later Multirole Rafale. What did Sweden do? Multrole Viggen. Multirole Gripen.

Very very few companies make dedicated attack aircraft any more. The reasons can be discussed in another thread. It is one thing to desire a dedicated attack fleet. It is another thing to blame the IAF for not having one without keeping one's eyes open to reality
The only "attack aircraft" Russia has produced after Tu-160 (Cold war) is Su-34 which is an adaptation of high G tight turn Su-27/MiG 29 of TsAgi design bureau

It is ONLY the US that has persistently invested in dedicated attack aircraft after adopting F-18 for ship role. They went ahead into stealth and produced F-117 and B-2. They have kept B-52.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 29 Mar 2016 07:39

srai wrote:...
Part of the problem has been with the attitude (both official and unofficial) shown in the public by the IAF regarding indigenous products like the LCA. There was no need for IAF chiefs to call LCA publicly "3-legged Cheetah" or "MiG-21++" or it's no MRCA or "no Plan B" etc. There hasn't been as much strong vocal support for the LCA from the service as the name calling (perfect soundbites) goes. One gets the perception that they are being burdened with it. That has only given ammo to these foreign lobbyist and Indian DDMs to suggest those absurd recommendations. The IAF needs to officially call out those DDMs putting false information (by using unnamed IAF officials) and refute them publicly. There is a need for the armed forces, MoD/GoI and DRDO/HAL to be better trained on interacting with the media and having official spokesperson to regular disseminate official information and other clarifications. Lack of this, the DDMs are having a field day!

Since you recently suggested based on a Malaysian AF video that perhaps IAF could learn from them, your view on IAF is understood. Some Tellis character says something and you have to go after the IAF.

Right, IAF high rankers have had a problematic approach to local developments and I see that as flawed. But what about HAL? Isn't the manufacturer of the LCA (which should be marketing it hard and not just the ADA which is actually doing this job) itself a party to ignoring the Tejas? Wasn't HAL the company which did the most damage to LCA MK2 saying its hands are full while it was eagerly waiting in desperation for Rafale?

If it comes to finger pointing and fault finding, no one is in the clear. The effort on the ground has not been backed by the higher ups in any formation on a consistent basis (FinMin/MoD/ DRDO/HAL/IAF). LCA will succeed because of Indian perseverance and not because of the bile directed by you or others.

Just like the humble engineer / scientist buckled down and made the LCA a reality, so will the ordinary line worker at HAL contribute. That is exactly what will happen in IAF. The unsung folks, the ones who don't give soundbites will make this aircraft a success.

On a side note: This constant anti IAF bile that you write about is becoming difficult to respond without anger. So please, if you could avoid quoting me in future, I will avoid replying. Thank You.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Mar 2016 08:33

Wow! That tellis article does not even pretend to indian interests. Shameless selling, truly crass. Even trump would have more class.

Bugger should be given the cold shoulder by all concerned. It is this kind of blatant attitude that results in the Americans not getting anywhere...wouldn't bee surprised if thus think tank didn't just tick off a number of decision makers....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Mar 2016 09:04

Tellis is just an American Agent disguised as Indian Well Wisher , He was bad mouthing when GOI/IAF selected Rafale over the F-18 and he expected the deal would go to American contender and specifically F-18 ... to be rebutted by one of BRFite , Any thing Tellis can just be safely ignored.

srai · Post by **srai** » 29 Mar 2016 09:22

Deejayji, sorry to hear that I have offended you and that you feel I sound anti-HAL or anti-IAF, which I'm not. I try to stay neutral but didn't realize that my posts have come out so strongly either way. Anyways, no offense meant. I'll avoid quoting your posts in future.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Mar 2016 09:30

Sadly such paid 'sales pitch' articles make the opinion/perception of the masses not just aam abdul but sometimes even the people like airforce officers or the babus who take decisions in the ministries. I think we should take every effort to shoot down such articles by commenting on them exposing the true face of it, sharing on social media the true side of the story. BR members should take lead in this since there are people who can easily see through these articles and eloquently put forth the truth.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 29 Mar 2016 16:53

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 592900.cms

Parrikar, however, expressed hope that the mega Rafale fighter jet deal, estimated to cost overRs 6,000 crore, would be finalised shortly. "We are very serious about it but I agree that the speed is not enough. We would very soon come to a conclusion on the deal. I am not putting timelines but ultimately money (pricing) is the problem," the minister said.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 29 Mar 2016 19:31

Rafale price negotiations between India and France resume today

“We don’t expect the negotiations to continue for a year. It is not a never-ending process but there is no deadline. We have to get the best deal. Everything else has been agreed upon by both sides, we are in the final stretch of financial negotiations,” explained a top defence ministry official.

The Indians are willing to pay around 7 billion USD for the 36 fighters while the French company is believed to be asking for one billion USD more. The deal includes air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles, bombs, training of pilots, and preparation of IAF base facilities for the aircraft.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... to-resume/

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Mar 2016 21:06

No idea what has been accomplished. It is the same narrative that has been dusted and published.

So $7 billion (considering the lower number) for 36. 72 will be $14 billion, 108 $21 and 126 around $25.

So what has actually changed?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 29 Mar 2016 21:33

NRao wrote:No idea what has been accomplished. It is the same narrative that has been dusted and published.

So $7 billion (considering the lower number) for 36. 72 will be $14 billion, 108 $21 and 126 around $25.

So what has actually changed?

Dassault Rafale wins USD 10.4 billion Indian Air Force jet fighter deal: Sources

The link above is from NDTV dated January 31, 2012, a day or two before the Rafale was officially crowned L1 winner. So from $10.4 billion for 126 aircraft, India has now agreed to pay $7 billion for 36 aircraft and the French are still dragging their feet!!

Look, if you want to dine at Le Meurice in Paris, you better be prepared to pay nose bleed prices and wait for awhile for the chef to get your dishes ready. Better stay at home and have wada sambar or channa bhatura. Even McDonalds is cheaper and has fast service!!

The UPA in its wisdom/corruption? told the IAF to go ahead and get the most exotic food offered and the IAF went to dine at Le Meurice. Now the chickens..oops the bill is coming home to roost.

What I don't get is how come Shri Modi got duped into this......he is a smart Gujju businessman.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 29 Mar 2016 23:12

What exactly qualifies as offsets ?

If the French figure of 8 Billion USD is accepted, they are obligated to plough back 4 Billion USD back in desh.
30% on Income by desi companies would be taxed.

Net effect @ 50 % offset is 4 Billion USD less Tax income from offset amount being ploughed back ..
Net effect wise per unit comes out to ~ 100 - 110 Million for the jet in flyaway condition + associated weaponry

With the russian deals, we dont have 50% offsets ..

Singbhai · Post by **Singbhai** » 29 Mar 2016 23:22

As a Newbee - Dandavat Pranam to everybody.

The BOM cost changes based on volume. It's never a direct division. I am sure all of you agree on that.
Question is if the Fixed Cost of the deal (which would appear irrespective of the number of aircrafts bought) is so high - is it because of makhan on several traitor's hands? Has our Raksha mantry already sniffed this but avoiding a public trashing to still save the deal?

Unless the baby is throwing a tantrum and threatening not to eat - no parent would buy such super expensive toys! Desi logic doesn't seem to be working here.

Gentlemen - extremely sorry to intrude in your discussions. Been lurking around daily for the past 7 years to accumulate some courage to participate. No offense meant to anybody except the greased hands if any..

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 29 Mar 2016 23:47

arthuro wrote:Rafale price negotiations between India and France resume today
“We don’t expect the negotiations to continue for a year. It is not a never-ending process but there is no deadline. We have to get the best deal. Everything else has been agreed upon by both sides, we are in the final stretch of financial negotiations,” explained a top defence ministry official.

In the first time a senior official has publicly announced a time line for wrapping up negotiations on India’s proposed purchase of 36 Rafale fighters, France’s ambassador to New Delhi says he expects the price to be negotiated and agreed to within four months.

“It will be too long if it goes beyond that”, said Ambassador Francois Richier, speaking to journalist Karan Thapar on India Today TV on Wednesday evening. - 28th Jan 16

The Indians are willing to pay around 7 billion USD for the 36 fighters while the French company is believed to be asking for one billion USD more. The deal includes air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles, bombs, training of pilots, and preparation of IAF base facilities for the aircraft.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... to-resume/

Well-informed defence ministry sources that are close to the negotiation say there is a wide gulf between the two sides. "The difference between what France is demanding and what India is willing to pay is too large to bridge easily - about 25 per cent." - Link

While sources have indicated that the final cost have come to about 2-3% more as it will be a government-to-government deal, as in the case of all such contracts, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has expressed the hope that the price of one Rafale will be 25% less. - Link

With Parrikar apparently willing to outlast the French, who'll be less willing to knuckle down as they close in on a major UAE deal, the outcome still remains very uncertain.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Mar 2016 23:57

What I don't get is how come Shri Modi got duped into this......he is a smart Gujju businessman.

That he is. His bigger picture is Indian economy, that needs to absorb some 18 million new job seekers every year. Note what he has decided on the slimy Italians.