And not the SDRE part, which you are analyzing. The backdrop does look like Bhosporos and the blog seem to have very less interest in phosphorous. Time to move on.shiv wrote:Maybe bosphorus. Maybe phosphorus. But those are SDREs in orange life jackets
A first gen US sub had two nuclear reactors.ramana wrote:I don't know if anyone has built such a gear with two turbines in a submarine which has to be quiet.
Maybe one of those concept designs which are being traded.
That much power - the Oscar Class behemoth.Installed power: 2 × pressurized water cooled reactors
Propulsion: 2 × steam turbines delivering 73,070 kW (97,990 shp) to two shafts
It is possible but the parameter which dictates size of any subs are Weapons/Payload , Sensors , Crew Size which is dictated by automation involved , Under Water Endurance ( any where between 1-3 months ) which then dictates the food supplies one carries and crew comfort needed for such long under water endurance is a premium for sub , Power/Reactor needed for all the above other things like like integrated Escape vessels , Quietening Technology used depending whats available to each country , also single hull or double hull design , As Akula is double hull the underwater displacement is 12000 T and actual its 8000TShauryaT wrote:Would it be feasible to have a large SSN larger than Akula size with two Arihant sized reactors and still fulfill "silent" profile requirements of modern day SSN?
The article above makes reference to the possibility of our next generation SSBN being powered by two reactors? The gut says, that would be loud.
What struck me was this part in the excellent write up by SauravSingha wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-u ... deterrent/
we know the details but still a good summary of the arihant and follow on plans
By increasing the SLBM strength by 100 % from 4 to 8 and increasing PWR to 90 MWt , The Aridhaman class would easily under any classification would be a new Class of SSBN derived from Arihant class.The K-4 will also arm the other Arihant class boats currently under construction. The first of these boats, the INS Aridhaman, which for project purposes is designated S-3 with the Arihant being S-2, is expected to be launched soon. Aridhaman and the two other Arihant class boats that will follow it will be somewhat larger and more advanced than the Arihant. For one, the Arihant’s immediate successors will sport eight launch tubes as compared to the Arihant’s four with each tube capable of carrying either a single K-4 or three K-15 missiles. Due to the increased loadout and size, these follow-on ships will also have an up-rated version of the Arihant’s 90 MWth (thermal) pressurized water reactor (PWR).
I am not sure of the above view, that this is a "new" design. It seems more of an uprated version of the Arihant reactor along with a size increase to accommodate the four additional tubes. Expecting the surfaced weight to be around 8000 tons (Akula sized) not 10K tons. The design will still incur some speed penalties compared to the Arihant's top speed of 24 knots, unless the thermal to electric conversion ratio is increased. I think there is a big question mark on what the next generation series production SSBN design will be and it will be determined by the reactor that we are able to assemble for the next SSN. We live with the Arihant extended design as our first gen SSBN until then.Austin wrote:It would also mean the new class would have to go through larger number of test point like Arihant class , would be a series production of Arihant class.
Singha wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/indias-u ... deterrent/
we know the details but still a good summary of the arihant and follow on plans
What is the basis of speculation of a new powerplant? Has Navy or AEC/BARC made any such comments?Austin wrote:
Is the power plant for the SSN (attack submarine) confirmed as being the same as the S2-S4 series? if so, that will be news. Can you post the source. Thanks.tsarkar wrote: There are three submarine classes - a four multi role tube, an 8 multi role tube and an attack submarine still on the drawing board. AKAIK, all three are supposed to use the same powerplant.
Call it new design , Arihant 2 or Arihant plus for all practical purpose a increasing slbm silos by 100 % would mean a major engineering change because the CG would change , lets assume the reactor size is the same and diameter is also the same , the length would go up by few tens of meters.ShauryaT wrote:I am not sure of the above view, that this is a "new" design. It seems more of an uprated version of the Arihant reactor along with a size increase to accommodate the four additional tubes. Expecting the surfaced weight to be around 8000 tons (Akula sized) not 10K tons. The design will still incur some speed penalties compared to the Arihant's top speed of 24 knots, unless the thermal to electric conversion ratio is increased. I think there is a big question mark on what the next generation series production SSBN design will be and it will be determined by the reactor that we are able to assemble for the next SSN. We live with the Arihant extended design as our first gen SSBN until then.Austin wrote:It would also mean the new class would have to go through larger number of test point like Arihant class , would be a series production of Arihant class.
I think they current reactor is running less then of its claimed capability to err on the conservative side as this would be the first of type BARC would be working with , moving to 90-95 MWt would be its true design capability , its not a huge leapfrog from the current 80 MWt capability for Arihanttsarkar wrote:There are three submarine classes - a four multi role tube, an 8 multi role tube and an attack submarine still on the drawing board. AKAIK, all three are supposed to use the same powerplant.
Secondly, the name of the second submarine is Aridaman (no "h"). Credibility is lost when one doesn't get the name right. There is a precedence - there was a NPOL TAS project under development called NAGAN but some folks in BR started calling it NAGIN that was picked up by media and the incorrect name propagated.
Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that
Jha is a bong in this case.Alka_P wrote:Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that
What does it mean anyway? (me an ignorant southie onlee, please don't jump on meAlka_P wrote:Aridaman is a word, Aridhaman isn't. Nothing to do with pronunciation and it's wrong.Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that
)Stretching hulls is common practice.Austin wrote:all practical purpose a increasing slbm silos by 100 % would mean a major engineering change because the CG would change , lets assume the reactor size is the same and diameter is also the same , the length would go up by few tens of meters.
First of all, I meant no offence to regional nuances. Only wanted the correct name with proper meaning used. People often copy from various sources, including BRF forums, and end up cascading errors.Singha wrote:Jha is a narthie but southeies do add a h like shakti==shakthi and no one should mind that
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
Funnily enough even the wikipedia page says INS Aridhaman with an 'h'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Aridhaman
Saurav Jha @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
And only somebody who doesn't know anything about reactor technology will think that 'up-rating' an existing reactor means a new design.
Look who is watchingSaurav Jha @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago New Delhi, India
A 10 or even 20 % power up-rate of an existing design can be achieved with modifications naturally.
Yes but we are talking here of not 2 extra silos which is still 50% more than Arihant but 100 % increase.tsarkar wrote: We stretched Leander to Godavari,
Rajput to Delhi to Kolkata,
Type 1135.6 to Shivalik.
The US added a plug to SSN-23 USS Jimmy Carter.
The Spurance design was stretched to Ticonderoga.
The Gibbs & Cox Arleigh Burke design evolved to Block 2A and Block 3.
Airbus A-320 was stretched to A-321.
In none of these examples, powerplant was changed. Good designers keep margins that can leverage existing powerplants.
Good Naval Architects always provision for future growth. Like Kolkata accommodates heavier weapons like Brahmos and heavier radars like Elta 2248 while retaining the same Zorya powerplantIn 2005, then finance minister P. Chidambaram, a member of the apex political committee steering the classified project, wondered why the Arihant, costing over a billion dollars (Rs 6,200 crore), carried only four missiles. The project team doubled the missile load on three subsequent vessels.
We have started work but still are at the pen to paper stage," Vice Admiral P Murugesan, the Vice Chief of Naval staff said
2015+15=2030 indicates the R&D effort to build a silent boat to kill other submarines.The top officer expressed confidence in the abilities of the navy's submarine design bureau to come out with a new class of vessels in less than 15 years. "These things take time but we will be able to improve on the timelines that the pioneers (nations) have set which typically took over 15 years for such a project," the Vice Chief said
BALASORE: Notwithstanding international pressures India has secretly conducted the maiden test of its nuclear capable undersea ballistic missile, code named K-4, from homegrown submarine INS Arihant at an undisclosed location in the Bay of Bengal.
A reliable source on Friday told ‘The New Indian Express’ that the test conducted on March 31 nearly 45 nautical miles away from Vishakhapatnam coast in Andhra Pradesh was highly successful. The indigenously developed weapon with a dummy payload was reportedly launched from the submarine in full operational configuration.
The trial was carried out with the support of the personnel of Strategic Forces Command (SFC) while the DRDO provided all logistics. The missile was fired from 20-meter deep and it pierced into the sky after breaking the water surface. INS Arihant had first successfully fired a prototype of K-15 (B-05) missile in November last year.
The K-4 missile was fired from onboard silos of the ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine demonstrating the capability of the newly built underwater warship to fire long range nuclear capable missiles and the killing efficiency of the most advanced state-of-the-art weapon system.
“Having an operational range of nearly 3,500 km, the missile was fired towards north for a shorter range. It covered more than 700 km before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP),” informed the source.
DRDO officials however refused to speak on the mission. While the officials associated with K-4 mission and Arihant project were tight-lipped, Director General of DRDO Selvin Christopher did not respond calls from this paper.
On March 7, this missile was test fired from a submerged pontoon (replica of a submarine) positioned nearly 30 feet deep sea offshore Vizag coast. Although, the DRDO didn’t officially confirm about the secret mission, it was learnt that the test was a roaring success.
Even as the DRDO had reportedly conducted the first test of the missile system, which was developed under a secret project, in 2010, it officially admitted to have a missile named K-4 with a video footage of the missile launch in the Aero-India show in January last year.
Reports indicated the K-4 missile with the features of boost-glide flight profiles is designed to defeat any anti-ballistic missile systems. Equipped with the satellite updates to modify accumulated errors from its inertial navigation system, the weapon system is claimed to be quite dangerous and one of its kind in the world.
The 111-metre-long INS Arihant has four vertical launch tubes, which are capable of carrying 6 torpedoes of 533 mm and 12 B-05 (K-15) missiles or 4 K-4 missiles.
Powered by an 85 MW capacity nuclear reactor with enriched uranium fuel, this submarine can achieve surface speeds of 12 knots to 15 knots, and submerged speeds of up to 24 knots, carrying a crew of 95.
Apart from Arihant, the K-4 will also arm another Arihant class submarine INS Aridhaman which is currently under construction along with two others. These submarines will have eight launch tubes each