Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

[Austin]

Reread what I wrote.. it explains exactly why we are in the situation.

Also Look at teh amount of russian eqpt as a proportion of our overall holdings..

For better or worse thats the nature of the game wrt JV , In hind sight every JV agreement would look bad because in years and decades we might be able to catch up for things our partner provided us or just make a better ones at cheaper prices

We cant help much here unless we just move out or break/subvert the JV and face legal implications or loose your partner trust.

What we can do now is frame a better agreement that is more favorable to India in long run or build the capability to make that other 50 % tacitly so that should these JV country sanction india in case of say some future war with xyz nation we are not left high and dry with the JV program.

The advantage is if they know we can make that other 50 % inhouse they would have less incentive to sanction us and loose their business beyond the strategic autonomy we gain

[vaibhav.n]

Akshay,

My 2 cents, if the news about the Radars being present at the troop level is correct then it really wouldn't matter.

According to the brochure the GCC can transmit upto 30Kms from each other.

Could be even higher, the new tactical control radars can automatically transfer radar plots upto 20Kms and also over LAN. The battery commanders can have any number of combinations because he could in any case get updates of the current ASP via other sources through data/voice.

http://www.bel-india.com/?q=3D-TCR

[Akshay Kapoor]

Thanks Srai and Vaibhav,

That's very useful. Gives me confidence as a commander. Now I can happily spend hours looking at offensives through Cholistan and Sindh too and make plans for deep thrusts. Ah, tiny problem, not getting govt clearance to attack. Damn, overlooked that. Strange how the enemy comes from the most unexpected place in war ?

I know its OT for this thread but any requests for objectives for my thrusts ?

[member_29190]

Akash missiles should be build in thousands and the cost brought down to cheap as chips. It's ability to interconnect on theatre level and low cost with no seaker is a real advantage.

Should be used to saturate airspace for incoming bogies.

Aircrafts may find a way to jam the Akash datalinks etc, but it would be ideal for attack choppers, UAV & cruise missiles.

I would like to see the look on TFTA PA Cobra pilot's face when each of their choppers have 3-4 Akash fired at them.

The holding corps are getting Akash as well. So good luck PA A1H's !

[srin]

http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Ch ... 60401.aspx
Air Weapons: India Tries To Survive A Broken ARM

April 1, 2016: The Indian Air Force has gone public with the problems it is having with a new ARM (Anti-radiation missile) being developed for them by DRDO (India's Defense Research and Development Organization). The NGARM (New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile) is larger and 40 percent heavier than the air force specified and it is still uncertain that it will work. NGARM has a range of 60 kilometers and is meant to replace the Anglo-French Martel, a 1980s design that weighs 550 kg (1,210 pounds) and even with updated electronics is inferior to the American AGM-88 HARM, which the Indian Air Force wants to buy 1,500 of. That will not be possible if the government insists on the air force using NGARM, which will not be available until 2019 at the earliest.

The Indian Air Force wants the AGM-88E which weighs 361 kg (794 pounds) and can detect and attack targets more than 150 kilometers away while travelling at a speed of 2,450 kilometers per hour. The AGM-88E can transmit a picture of the target, just before it is hit, so the user can be certain of what was taken out. The AGM-88E was developed jointly by U.S. and Italian firms. The original 1960s anti-radiation missile (ARM) quickly evolved into the HARM. Currently, there are orders for over 2,000 AGM-88E/Fs from the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps, Italy, and Germany. Over 24,000 AGM-88s, of all types, have been produced since the 1980s.

DRDO is a network of 51 weapons and technology laboratories, employing over 30,000 people (20 percent of them scientists and engineers.) DRDO has been screwing up Indian weapons development programs for half a century. Efforts to shape up DRDO have consistently failed. It's all about politics (DRDO provides jobs for well-connected people) and nationalism (India wants to produce its own high tech weapons.) DRDO has failed in most all areas (small arms, tanks, missiles and warplanes). The failures have grown over the years, and created louder calls for reforms. DRDO has had some successes, which it publicizes as energetically as it can. It tries to play down the failures, or simply tout them as partial successes. But compared to defense industries in other nations, DRDO is an underperformer, and highly resistant to reform.

-----------
dont know how much is true or false

I wouldn't trust anything from strategy page unless its a reproduction with the original source referenced. There is also no point in throwing around range figures for an ARM since ARM-based targeting is usually not kinematically limited (range) but rather limited by the ability to pin-point emitters, establish feedback loop and make sure that the right emitter is being targeted amidst a host of countermeasures. ARM range is also dependent on how well it is integrated onto the platform employing it hence the USAF's delaying tactics on the -88E. Also, the article gets an important piece of technical 'googleable' information wrong : The AGM-88E is not the HARM but the AARGM (Different weapon, by a different OEM).

Actually - I think this (and another article couple of weeks ago slamming the NGARM) is great news. It means that the NGARM has progressed to such an extent that the vendors have gotten nervous. Would they really be so if their chaiwallahs within MoD had told them it was a piece of junk ?

That said, these plants have been pretty ham handed jobs. I'd have assumed they would have gotten more polished with the experience they've had talking crap about indigeneous programs

[jayasimha]

Our CEO is having the right spirit for promoting everything Russian while ignoring that ALL money and ALL orders are Indian. Anyway he shamelessly proves that seeker, engine, warhead is Russian and will remain Russian, after-all it is a JV. India gets the can, errr I meant India gets to make the can...nister. The Pvt Companies are ready to offer indigenous seeker replacement but the orders are "may be". So this is perfect Indian DPSU style JV, in which India's sole duty is to provide all the money and get the responsibility to do packaging while other side gets all manufacturing. Not to fret but our Al-55 engine, Shakti engine, TATRA JV, LRSAM, MRSAM, Indo-Israeli tank sabot round, --- are all similar type of JVs.

our CEO(s) will be left with only KOUPINA if India imports everything..


http://brahmand.com/news/India-developi ... /1/10.html

India-developing-seekers-for-BRAHMOS-other-missiles

[member_28397]

http://brahmand.com/news/India-developi ... /1/10.html

India-developing-seekers-for-BRAHMOS-other-missiles

using 125 nanometer chips, works for ISRO though

[srai]

Thanks Srai and Vaibhav,

That's very useful. Gives me confidence as a commander. Now I can happily spend hours looking at offensives through Cholistan and Sindh too and make plans for deep thrusts. Ah, tiny problem, not getting govt clearance to attack. Damn, overlooked that. Strange how the enemy comes from the most unexpected place in war ?

I know its OT for this thread but any requests for objectives for my thrusts ?

You might want to post in the "Possible Indian Military Scenarios" thread. It has a good readership following. Maybe a book would come out of it

[Akshay Kapoor]

That's what my wife keeps saying ! Sounds like a lot of work though but maybe I will do it.

[member_22539]

^Go for it. Good luck.

[Karan M]

Reread what I wrote.. it explains exactly why we are in the situation.

Also Look at teh amount of russian eqpt as a proportion of our overall holdings..

For better or worse thats the nature of the game wrt JV , In hind sight every JV agreement would look bad because in years and decades we might be able to catch up for things our partner provided us or just make a better ones at cheaper prices

We cant help much here unless we just move out or break/subvert the JV and face legal implications or loose your partner trust.

What we can do now is frame a better agreement that is more favorable to India in long run or build the capability to make that other 50 % tacitly so that should these JV country sanction india in case of say some future war with xyz nation we are not left high and dry with the JV program.

The advantage is if they know we can make that other 50 % inhouse they would have less incentive to sanction us and loose their business beyond the strategic autonomy we gain

The point in bold is exactly the issue. Addicted to imports the Indian side never really told the Russians (or anyone else) to fck off, when stunts were pulled on programs like the T-90. Instead we went back to them, bowl in hand, as it was the easiest way to resolve the issue. If India had the guts to order 500 Arjun Mk2 and trash the T-90, and did this several times in other programs, including cancelling big ticket programs if Russia played hardball (as they have on Su-30, Smerch, T-90 and every deal), then we would have drawn a line in the sand and the Russians would know better than to take our needs as a joke. Many Russian arms firms probably take the Indian side as a joke, which they can play, as versus the Russian Govt. That's the fundamental issue.

[vasu raya]

Maiden Test of Undersea K-4 Missile From Arihant Submarine

The K-4 missile was fired from onboard silos of the ship submersible ballistic, nuclear (SSBN) submarine demonstrating the capability of the newly built underwater warship to fire long range nuclear capable missiles and the killing efficiency of the most advanced state-of-the-art weapon system.

“Having an operational range of nearly 3,500 km, the missile was fired towards north for a shorter range. It covered more than 700 km before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability (CEP),” informed the source.

[arun]

Maiden Test of Undersea K-4 Missile From Arihant Submarine

Hemant Kumar Rout citing nameless source claimed in a March 16, 2016 article that the K4 Missile was secretly tested from a submerged pontoon on March 7, 2016:

K-4 Missile Test A Roaring Success

He is now claiming, citing nameless source, that K4 Missile was tested on March 31, 2016 off the Arihant.

That level of urgency in ballistic missile testing is alien to DRDO leading me to take the view in the absence of official confirmation, that one or both of his reports are not factual.

[member_28108]

I think that the K series will be ultimately the canisterized versions that will be inducted.Probably also why the Agni 5 may be delayed- want short fat and stubby thing that fits a submarine- the same will fit onto a roadster or railway easily,

[member_23891]

How come Mr. Rout breaks the news of secret tests everytime? Possibly he is unofficial news broadcaster from DRDO!!! Also the timing of breaking this news after Obama's statement during nuclear summit and amidst the visit of Mr. Carter.

[member_28108]

^ https://www.linkedin.com/in/hemant-kumar-rout-8013a816

[member_23891]

I think that the K series will be ultimately the canisterized versions that will be inducted.Probably also why the Agni 5 may be delayed- want short fat and stubby thing that fits a submarine- the same will fit onto a roadster or railway easily,

Beleiving Mr. Rout's story, it can be implied that K-4 is now operationally ready for deployment on Arihant. Waiting for the day when Arihant will be out for first detterence petrol .

[uddu]

Yes he is accurate. Earlier used to write with negativity. Nowadays the reports look very professional.

[Aditya G]

I want a public commissioning of Arihant with some chest beating and macho talk. I wont be surprised if our speech writers introduce statements around our belief in global disarmament, emphasis on safety etc in PM's text while DD will focus camera on VIPs dozing off while sitting in Neelkamal chairs.

[Cain Marko]

That's what my wife keeps saying ! Sounds like a lot of work though but maybe I will do it.

Hope you do saar, I think you will do great. Wonlee one caveat ....no taking huge vacations from your scenarios, please provide regular dosage, even if it is drip feed. loong hiatus ijj very hard on opium-fed jingos.

Ii the immortal words of Namo, "May the force be with you... "

[jayasimha]

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 372227.ece

BALASORE (ODISHA): Days after the Indian army's adverse opinion on the indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) seems to be on mission mood. It has planned a series of user trials of the missile system from a defence base off the Odisha coast next week.

According to reports the army had recently declared the Akash missile a dud and floated a global tender to procure an alternative weapon system to protect the country from aerial threats. Army’s move embarrassed the DRDO at a time when the country was claiming the Akash system as the first initiative of the much hyped ‘Make-in-India’ programme.

Perturbed over the accusations, the DRDO in a bid to prove them wrong is all set to carry out a series of user specific tests of Akash from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur on sea.

The tests reportedly planned to be conducted in between April 11 and 15 aim at checking the technical parameters set for the user.

A reliable source told ‘The New Indian Express’ on Saturday that the indigenously developed missile would be flight tested from a make-shift launcher on helipad near launching complex - III of the ITR. The missile would be fired targeting the pilot-less target aircraft (PTA) Lakshya as an aerial ‘target’.

“Preparation for the mission has reached at final stage. Both the Akash team and PTA team are ready for the tests. Pre-mission check-ups are going on and the missile is expected to be test launched as per the schedule,” said a defence official.

Akash missile system is uniquely configured and customised both for Indian Army and Air Force. It has a strike range of nearly 30 km and can be fired from both tracked and wheeled platforms. The Army version of Akash is being produced by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) as the nodal production agency with the involvement of Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) and some other industries.

Developed under the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) of the DRDO, Akash was formally inducted in the Army on May 5 and in the Air Force on July 10 last year. Although the DRDO spent more than Rs 1,000 crore in its development in last three decades, the missile has failed to meet the requirement of the army.

Akash is a mobile, multiple-target handling and medium range air defence missile. After years of rejection allegedly for the faults in the missile system, even as the Army had finally agreed to accept the modified version of the and ordered two Akash regiments worth around Rs 20,000 crore last year, but the tender allowing the missile manufacturers from abroad to participate indicates that the homegrown weapon has failed to allure the user

[srai]

^^^



Rout should be writing Bollywood scripts; he knows how to add a bit of masala to the ordinary! He makes conjectures where none exists.

[member_22539]

^Does he get paid per article? Does shame exist only as an abstract concept to him? Will he call day night and night day if I pay him enough?

[Cosmo_R]

^ https://www.linkedin.com/in/hemant-kumar-rout-8013a816

Well, he must then be a real person. On LinkedIn everyone is real.

[sankum]

User Trial of Akash Missile System By Indian Army Successful

[Kakarat]

India Conducts Twin Secret Tests Of K-4 SLBM - Livefist

India tested it's most ambitious weapon -- the K-4 submarine-launched long range ballistic missile -- twice last month. Top sources tell Livefist that the two tests, both conducted at less than ceiling range of 3,500 km were conducted at an undisclosed location in the south Bay of Bengal.

The two tests on March 7 and March 31 are understood to be the second and third tests of the K-4. The first test, the details of which remain shadowy, is understood to have been carried out in March 2014. The K-4, a submarine-launched derivative of the Agni-III -- but a vastly different weapon, obviously -- was revealed first by my India Today colleague Sandeep Unnithan back in 2010. The lower range K-15 submarine-launched missile was launched in 2013.

The Indian government barely acknowledges the existence of the K-4, so nobody's expecting anything official from the DRDO or MoD on the lines of what they put out for literally every other weapon test, including the doddering Prithvis (that are up for a progressive phase out soon, but more on that later).

A big congratulations to the K-4 team!

[member_27581]

I want a public commissioning of Arihant with some chest beating and macho talk. I wont be surprised if our speech writers introduce statements around our belief in global disarmament, emphasis on safety etc in PM's text while DD will focus camera on VIPs dozing off while sitting in Neelkamal chairs.

How abt "carrying a big stick yet doing it silently" (in the words of G Parthasarthy)
Interestingly our govt has found a middle way.

[NRao]

http://zeenews.india.com/news/india/ind ... 75806.html

Balasore: India has reportedly conducted a secret test of the nuclear-capable undersea ballistic missile, code named K-4.

As per a report published in The New Indian Express last week, the submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) was test-fired from INS Arihant at an undisclosed location in the Bay of Bengal.

The report quoted a source as saying that the missile was test-fired on March 31 some 45 nautical miles from the Vishakhapatnam coast in Andhra Pradesh.

The missile test was dubbed as 'highly successful'.

The K-4 missile, developed indigenously, was test-fired with a dummy payload in full operational configuration.

The report said the missile was launched from a 20-meter depth and successfully broke through the water surface.

Among the notable features of the K-4 SLBM, its range is 3,500 km. The missile measures 12 metre in length and 1.3 metre in width. It weighs 17 tonnes and can carry a nuclear payload of 2,000 kilograms. Its engine is solid fuelled.

It may be remembered that a prototype of K-15 (B-05) missile was test-fired from INS Arihant last November.

[member_23370]

Most news outlets are just repeating what Rout wrote and have no contact with DRDO officials.

[Cosmo_R]

Most news outlets are just repeating what Rout wrote and have no contact with DRDO officials.

The mouthpiece of Sauron

"A tall and evil shape, mounted upon a black horse… The rider was robed all in black, and black was his lofty helm; yet this was no Ringwraith but a living man ... his name is remembered in no tale, for he himself had forgotten it."

[Vipul]

News report from India Today claiming first and exclusive footage of K4 Missile being fired from the Arihant.

[Singha]

the footage - some or all of it could be from the pontoon test...in one shot we can see a boat or buoy type thing floating on surface right next to where the missile comes out.

they are not claiming the footage is from latest test.

[RoyG]

When are they going to release a pic of this thing?

[member_23370]

That video has been on youtube since last year.

[ramana]

When are they going to release a pic of this thing?

Just realized it. If launched from INS Arihant this is a operational test. We won't see pictures for they would be classified.

So two launches in March 7 & 31.

Can expect Arihant off on patrol soon.

[ShauryaT]

Any speculation on the payload?

[Austin]

Any speculation on the payload?

They say 2T at 3.5K range , likely this will be the Boosted Fission payload with margin with 1 T payload they can go further till ~ 5000 km

[RoyG]

I'm sure they have pics of the missile before it was placed into the tube. Very curious to see what kind of warhead this sporting. Judging from the video, dia = 1.3-1.5. Not enough real estate for for a MIRV bus. 2.5 tons is a huge fugging payload though. I'm guessing it'll only have a FBF city buster warhead ~ 200 kt mated to a boost glide vehicle.

[Indranil]

Most news outlets are just repeating what Rout wrote and have no contact with DRDO officials.

And look at the quality of masala analysis they do!
India Conducts Twin Secret Tests Of K-4 SLBM - Livefist

The two tests on March 7 and March 31 are understood to be the second and third tests of the K-4.

Does anybody believe that the second developmental test of the K-4 missile will be from Arihant, which itself is an experimental platform for us?

Actually, only two deductions can be made are:
1. These are not the second and third test of the K-4.
2. At least the first of the two tests from Arihant was a resounding success. Otherwise, the second one would not have been conducted so quickly.

[Indranil]

I'm sure they have pics of the missile before it was placed into the tube. Very curious to see what kind of warhead this sporting. Judging from the video, dia = 1.3-1.5. Not enough real estate for for a MIRV bus. 2.5 tons is a huge fugging payload though. I'm guessing it'll only have a FBF city buster warhead ~ 200 kt mated to a boost glide vehicle.

I came across a tender a couple of years back for the transportation of the K-4. They were building a special purpose truck. AFAIR, the diameter was 2 mtrs.