MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Apr 2016 05:06

Lilo wrote:Arjun will anyway achieve majority composition of our tank force maybe by next decade.

It'll never happen. Not unless the T-90's line is suspended and then converted to Arjun. By the next decade we'll be looking at the next Russian MBT, because.. logistical compatibility.

I'm extremely disappointed in Parrikar who's being led up the garden path by the DGMF brass. The 'how' of it escapes me. You don't need to be an expert to understand the CAG report on the comparative trials. Make-in-India.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Apr 2016 05:10

BTW anyone know the status of the air conditioner on the T-90? Did they finally get a working solution?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Apr 2016 05:21

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Apr 2016 06:34

^^^

Good video!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Apr 2016 06:56

Vivek
whole heartedly agree with you Saar. The Russians have left me with such a bitter taste in my mouth while watching them in the last 20 years.

You know my friends's father who were in the IAF would go to Russian would have a good time learning and doing so much.
But every now and then we would hear that they were treated in a racist manner except at that time they did not register that it was racism. They thought it was just odd behaviour. Assumptions that our men could not understand their technical complexity and keeping them relegated to small simple jobs were litmus tests showing what was wrong. On top of that they often made us pay again and again to get what we had paid for.

Yeah I am done with the Russians but one person that is not is the Indian Army.

So that was the reason why I had suggested the numbers I had suggested because with the T-90 licensing deal done.
We will be making the 90s regardless in India as no one has challenged my two assumption at the bottom of my long past above.

Now first thing to do is to not waste anymore money on the 72s than absolutely required.

Therefore by upgrading the T-72s with a numbers consolidation programme.
I was merely emulating (without realising it till now), the Mig-21 Bison Programme.
Shrink the numbers of Mig-21 dramatically, pick the newest airframes / tanks and upgrade them with good quality.
+ Do it with an overseas vendor to gain further buy in.

The T-90 was the equivalent of the Su-30 MKI and laughingly if I may say so.
Arjun is my LCA
The FMBT is the rafael. ha ha ha
Yes Yes I am not in a French loving mode either.

Okay then its only prudent if I put time lines and take the picture further.
Once again the reason for increasing the T-90s was to the make the users look in the other direction while the govt undertakes something that will fundamentally change the direction. i.e We don't want them getting an Armata ever period.

For this to happen I am going to use tsarkar's numbers and break open the Arjun numbers to Mark Versions (as he did).

Picture Now
Arjun Mk1 = 124
Arjun Mk2 = 118
T-90 = 310 CKD + 347 CKD + 354 CKD for Mountain Strike Corps + 1000 license manufacture (of which 330 & 235 ordered) = 2011
T-72 = 2414
Total = 4671
Arjun % age of Armoured Corps = 5.2 %

Future Picture 2020
Arjun Mk1 = 124 (1st Batch of Mk1)
Arjun Mk2 = 330
T-90 BHISMA = 2011
T-72 UPG = 1000 (A Very High Quality Upgrade, outsourced completely)
T-72 PHOENIX = 1414 (Take the remaining CIs and keep them as is till end of life, hold your horses gentelmen)
Total = 4679

Future Picture 2035
Arjun Mk1 = 0 (1st Batch of Mk1)
Arjun Mk2 = 550
Arjun Mk3 = 124
T-90 = 2011 + 189 = 2200 (Permanently Capped at 2200, never to exceed this number, remember this is a sweetner for this child)
T-72 MAX_UPG = 1000 (A Very High Quality Upgraded Tank)
T-72 PHOENIX = 500 (The Dying batch of tanks)
Total = 4374

Future Picture 2050
Arjun Mk1 = 0 (1st Batch of Mk1)
Arjun Mk2 = 400
Arjun Mk3 = 1000
Arjun Mk4 = 124 [I love that number

]
T-90 BHISMA = 2000 (The Bhisma Retirement Begins with a reduction of 200 tanks)
T-72 MAX_UPG = 500 (A Very High Quality Upgraded Tank)
T-72 PHOENIX = 0 (The Dead batch of tanks)
Total = 4024

Future Picture 2075
Arjun Mk3 = 800
Arjun Mk4 = 2200
Arjun Mk5 = 124
T-90 BHISMA = 800 (The Bhisma Retirement Begins with a reduction of 200 tanks)
Total = 3924

Future Picture 2100
Arjun Mk3 = 400
Arjun Mk4 = 1200
Arjun Mk5 = 2200
Total = 3800

I think that number is adequate and will probably be less than 3800 in reality by the end of this century.
Tank is headed towards a a very challenging future. I don't think it will last past this century in a manned format.

Okay I think thats enough... its been a good few days in this thread.
I hope the Arjun slowly and surely creeps into the IA garage.

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Apr 2016 08:28

^^^

Few observations:

* T-72s should be retired or put into reserves before Arjun Mk.1, which is much newer.

* T-72 upgrade should re-visit Karna package--T-72 chassis mated with Arjun turret.

* 124 initial order is too low; it needs to be 250 (4 regiments) at the minimum for better production/industry viability.

* Lower total number of active MBTs at around 2500-3000 (~1500-2000 T-90 and ~500-1000 Arjun) would be a better option for maintaining a high quality fleet with latest modernization and support packages. As is, the IA has hard time keeping all its fleet up-to-date. There should be another 1500 in war reserves (upgraded T-72s) with whatever remaining shelf life preserved as much as possible.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Apr 2016 08:45

^^ A more realistic number and based on interviews with Armed forces chief etc

~ 500 Plus Arjun Mk1/Mk2
~ 1600 T-90 Bhisma
~ 1800-2000 T-72M many upgraded to DRDO CIA standard

in future with deep upgrade under works

1000 plus T-72 with enjine , guns , TI , AC ,Coms ,APU and Active Defence APS ( mix match from India , Russia , Israel system ) another 500-600 will remains with CIA standard
1300 plus upgraded T-90 to T-90MS standard ( similar to T-72 upgrade but better capability with India , Russia and Israel system )
500 Plus Arjun Upgrade likely brought to Mk2 or higher standard with APS and other capbility

when FMBT is available in mid of next decade the T-72CIA will be replaced by FMBT followed by post 2030 the modernised T-72 , its possible more Arjun might be procured beyond 500 to early replace T-72CIA numbers all depends on CAPEX for the Army and threat scenario and how fast FMBT shapes up

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Apr 2016 09:28

Khalsa wrote:T-90 = 2011 + 189 = 2200 (Permanently Capped at 2200, never to exceed this number, remember this is a sweetner for this child)

Good God, I hope not! A 2,200 unit sweetener?!!

As if the 1,600 currently planned weren't bad enough. To paraphrase Deadpool, "cancer will spread to your liver, lungs, prostate and brain, but don't worry we'll ensure it doesn't spread further."

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Apr 2016 09:40

And all the while the "sweetener" for indigenous Arjun stands at 124 Mk.1 and 118 Mk.2

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 14 Apr 2016 09:45

Not to come off as a rant, but personally I would have been so much happier had they never sanctioned the Arjun project. Don't mind imports so much when we don't have a domestic alternative to it; Scorpene, Chinook, C-17, Ka-31 and so on.

But to see one reach the finish-line after decades of struggle, beat the incumbent outsider in head-to-head trials and then be shafted with token orders ('but see we are ordering them, aren't we?') is enough to make one physically nauseous.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Apr 2016 01:46

No Viv S

I think it was worth it, because this is when the commoner learnt to make the Tank
so we would not have to do it again.

This will lead to a proliferation of tech in other areas.
The battle management system
The Heat hardening of electronics.

Arjun will not die
Its our job to ensure it does not.

The numbers answer lies in the T-72 and how to use it to your advantage. So that one T-90 retirement days arrive , there is no other option but the successors of Arjun Mk2.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 16 Apr 2016 03:10

Read it all,
Large orders can make Arjun tank cheaper

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 16 Apr 2016 05:36

Viv S wrote:
Khalsa wrote:T-90 = 2011 + 189 = 2200 (Permanently Capped at 2200, never to exceed this number, remember this is a sweetner for this child)
Good God, I hope not! A 2,200 unit sweetener?!!

As if the 1,600 currently planned weren't bad enough. To paraphrase Deadpool, "cancer will spread to your liver, lungs, prostate and brain, but don't worry we'll ensure it doesn't spread further."

+1

As you know, Georges Clemenceau said "War is too important to be left to the generals." Similarly, procurement and strategy is too important to be left to the IA. NOT that they are stupid bu they are forced into coming up with a plan for everything from flag marches to cold start to mountain strike corps and the requisite equipment. Not mention functioning as a social project to absorb labor that in other countries would have been absorbed by industry.

The PLA as you know has a 'western theater' command to handle us while we are still futzing around with Hodson's and Poona Horse memes. They are already in to jointness and it does not mean a CDS. It is their version of the DoD Land Sea Air Battle plus cyber weapons.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Apr 2016 06:40

Arjun Mk.1/2 on a bridge and transport

Arjun MBT crossing obstacles:

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Apr 2016 07:13

srai

wonderful thank you.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2016 07:22

Khalsa wrote:No Viv S

I think it was worth it, because this is when the commoner learnt to make the Tank
so we would not have to do it again.

Given that amount of work required on the T-90 (after the Russians decided to abrogate a signed contract on ToT), coupled with other projects on armoured vehicles, DRDO could have well gone straight over to a clean sheet design for induction in 2030 (assuming we don't just buy the Armata).

Arjun will not die
Its our job to ensure it does not.

Better to die than live in a pathetic half state. Nowhere as nauseating as the prospect of seeing token orders being offered up the IA brass as evidence of their commitment to indigenization.

The numbers answer lies in the T-72 and how to use it to your advantage. So that one T-90 retirement days arrive , there is no other option but the successors of Arjun Mk2.

Its already write-off if we're planning for a (currently fictional) future successor to actually be inducted in meaningful numbers.

And as I recall, the capping of Mk1 orders was being justified by the incoming Mk2, which would actually be bought in numbers.

For now, let me tell you what 21 Corps commander Lt Gen Sanjiv Langer said when I asked him if the regiment under his formation was happy with the Arjun: "It is not our job to be happy. We have objectives, and we have to make do. Nothing is everything you want it to be. I can say that the Arjun has matured. It has gone beyond the point of being in incessant trials. It is inducted and operational now, as you saw in the exercise. But what we are really waiting for is the Arjun Mk.2." - Livefist

DexterM · Post by **DexterM** » 19 Apr 2016 08:34

It appears no force on earth or in the heavens can move DGMF.
Parrikar saab is busy with urgent (and costlier) purchases including Arty and Rafails. No one has time for MII of a tank that was never intended to be purchased.

Two generations of DGMFs have managed to keep indigenous production at bay.
Kudos to them. Let us bury the Arjun and move on.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Apr 2016 08:45

The DGMF wants India to be a puppet in the hands of foreign suppliers. They have done a good job of destroying local initiative!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 19 Apr 2016 09:25

Cheap photoshop.

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 19 Apr 2016 09:40

Even our T-72 upg "Bhishma" are Avadi produced.
We won't be all that fu(ked.
But the INSAS story gave us the importance of volumes.
Although with certain QA issues, the INSAS has been tremendously profitable.
Rant On
Tejas (Flying in Bangalore since 01) gets 20 airframe orders, Arjun (Beating the Bejesus outta the Ajeya in new clothes) gets 124. Dhanush (produced with the help of the Bofors 77B blueprints and with major improvements) gets 100 odd.
It's as if the game is rigged in favour of the visiting team(s)!
The entire LCA developmental budget spanning three decades is less than the Rafale's initial acquisition cost(if the reports are to be believed) and it is (acc. to the TP) as good as the Mirage 2000!
Yet cannot replace the "Hello 1960!" MiGs?!
Rant off.
Maybe the DGMF saw the good ads of the NauSena's MII and went "We will also order in threes!"

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Apr 2016 12:43

bury this bury that... hmm
seems everyone is in giving up mode

ranting and giving up won't help.
Its now high time to Imagine the Arjun Mk3
which is closer to 55 Tons

member_28700 · Post by **member_28700** » 19 Apr 2016 18:15

Its now high time to Imagine the Arjun Mk3
which is closer to 55 Tons

is it possible to have an Arjun Mk3 close to 55 tons. We would have to reduce the dimensions of the tank which would require re-designing of almost every aspect of the tank. I am no expert but is it so simple to reduce the down rate the size and reduce the weight of the tank that too a huge 10-12 tons?

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 19 Apr 2016 19:56

^^^

if one thinks of creating an export version and remove all the bells and whistles the IA is asking for, maybe one can get to 55 tons and still be competitive with the export version of a T-90 in the international market, not all armies need NBC, ploughs, its either Kanchan or ERA etc.

we are seeing this with Tejas where export customers aren't as demanding as the IAF

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 19 Apr 2016 23:33

Arjun is dead. We should invite proposals from Pvt Sector for 3 crew tank equivalent to T-90. In the meanwhile Billions worth of deals for T-90 and T-72 upgrade will be entered into under Import in India programme.

member_29190 · Post by **member_29190** » 19 Apr 2016 23:59

On the topic of reducing weight, one area where you do this is the engine. Given that the MTU is not the latest version, a new gen engine will be much more compact. Germany refuses to gives us the 1500hp Euro pack.

A compact engine will probably help is reducing the chasis size and the armour size protecting the engine.

This should reduce some weight.

Having said that weight is relative. There is a simple rule. Dont take the tank, where you cannot take it!

Can someone convince me that PA will "ignore overweight Arjun" tanks driving through the Thar desert? right into flanks of PA Punjab, when they are busy facing "superior" T-90! Would PA give more priority to Arjun's which has advanced 10-20KM into Thar or T-90 which are at Indus defences?

India has a great desert weapon.And Pak has no major defences in Thar as they have in Punjab.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Apr 2016 00:11

Just wondering if this was the exact stage and mindset , when the Marut was buried
Am not taking a potshot at you Gyan.

I am genuinely asking and hoping for us to question ourselves .... is this genuinely a case of climbing a peak in the dark.
When you can't see the summit and you give up just before you conquer the peak, by yards.

And by that I don't mean the supporters.... should this be asked of the army too.
They keep on trying to reject it .... what will it take to convert them to builder's army from an importers army.

Let me give you an example,

New Zealand went through some serious questioning of armed forces and what level of force they require.
To help the public understand and accept a military force , they undertook a massive PR campaign and sustained marketing.

They went from a Fighting Army to a Force of Nation Builders.
Supported by evidence of thousands of relief missions conducted in the Pacific during storms which are a plenty.

Perhaps we need to do the opposite, we the public need it (army) to understand the symbiotic relationship between an army and the industry.

Arjun is bigger than a tank, Arjun is not about Punjab , Arjun is not about holding corps and strike corps.
Arjun is about laying an independent line of production, backed with technologies that have been conceived or at the very least Mastered.

By the way
I am the person who has no faith in Licensed production.
i.e I have no faith that it leads to any major proliferation of understanding.

For me
IJT > Hawk
LCA > Mig-21
LCA > Jaguar
LCA-N > Rafael-M
Dhruv > Cheetah, Chetak
LCH > Mil-35
Vikrant > VikramAditya
AND
ARJUN > T-90

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Apr 2016 00:12

Any comments on this fanboy design , especially the turret
Mekrava influence ?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2016 01:37

Its a design based off this FMBT design shown by DRDO in some book.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2016 01:39

Note the DRDO design though has symmetrical frontal armor and the GMS has been relocated to rooftop. No need to play around with internal armor allocation to get similar depth behind GMS = other side.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Apr 2016 01:40

And probably the armor modules may be passive, like those on Merk.
ERA has this issue.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Apr 2016 02:15

karan ji, I can't see any of your pics.

--

srai wrote:..^^^Good video!

I'd commit 1000 tanks of Mk2 alone!

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Apr 2016 04:46

Arjun Mk2 Testing Images.

And This one

Okay someone tell me what is going on here.
Is that Fire plume from a missile launch. That can't be right.
It can't be ammo cook off since there is not much ammo carried in tests.
Is that plume of fire coming from the Turret or from behind ?
is that a blow off panel test ?

Experts please

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Apr 2016 05:22

It's a blow off panel test. As that was one of the bottom line requirements for mk2.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2016 07:04

Exactly same as real abrams blow off panel tests conducted by houthis in yemen and daesh in iraq

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Apr 2016 07:06

Ammo warheads even heat are probably insensitive but propellant in each shell might burn and cause that vast plume of flame

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Apr 2016 07:44

It is my understanding that we retire somewhere around 60 Tanks a year due to various reasons like damage etc. So if we can from now on wards induct 60 Arjuns a year it would maintain the force level etc. Further a large section of 72s will be up for retirement very soon. There is nothing wrong in planing for replacing them with Arjun m3 or m4. But I guess all this will be a wishful thinking unless MOD Baboons change their mind set.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Apr 2016 08:13

Singha wrote:Exactly same as real abrams blow off panel tests conducted by houthis in yemen and daesh in iraq

LOL

Yagnasri wrote:It is my understanding that we retire somewhere around 60 Tanks a year due to various reasons like damage etc. So if we can from now on wards induct 60 Arjuns a year it would maintain the force level etc. Further a large section of 72s will be up for retirement very soon. There is nothing wrong in planing for replacing them with Arjun m3 or m4. But I guess all this will be a wishful thinking unless MOD Baboons change their mind set.

We don't retire them because they get damaged, they would be repaired and put back into service.

The process needs further dissection.

There is an army vehicle lifecycle classification programme. As I knew it .. .it went from Class I to Class V.
Each stage representing a degradation of the vehicle performance due to usage and age.

Once a vehicle reaches Class V, it is taken off the ORBAT and off the Army register.
Due to circumstances such as war or being engaged in Militancy Operations, a CO might authorise the retaining of that Class V equipment with the advice of the Corps of EME provided that it does not consume more than a certain amount of money in repairs and maintenance.

Yes there must be a number of tanks reaching age, not sure about your number though. How did you come upon this number ?

I agree with you by the way.
We need to push down the throat of the army a %age replacement figure.
For example 20 % of all T-72s replacements must be Arjun Mk2 .
The T-90 must be replaced by a Mark-3.

The future of Arjun(LCA) lies in the T-72s (Mig-21s) and no point fighting with the T-90s (Su-30MKIs)
Too much pride and strategic thinking vested in the T-90s. We cannot bring about such a major change within 2 decades.
If we try, we will just fail and fail and then ask the Arjun to be buried in the Thar desert.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Apr 2016 14:11

My figure of 60 units is as I read it somewhere. May be here only. If planing is done properly to have a study replacement of 72s with Arjun updated from time to time is quite possible. Main thing lacking from the start is the support from MOD and IA. If the political leadership can deliver support from MOD, I am sure IA will follow the suit.

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Apr 2016 16:49

Arjun Armored Recovery and Repair Vehicle (ARRV)

Click for larger view:

srai · Post by **srai** » 20 Apr 2016 16:57

Various DRDO MLC-70 Bridging Systems:

Mat Ground Surfacing CL-70 (length 50m and width 5m) for mobility in sandy and marshy terrain

Short Span Bridging System (5m & 10m)

BLT Arjun (24m to 26m)

Manually Launched Assault Bridge Class -70 (MLAB) (31m)

SAKAV Modular Bridge (14m to 46m)

SARVATRA (15m to 75m) -> new variant (20m to 100m)