India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 03 May 2016 17:00

Why is GoI even responding to this report? We must give it the contempt it deserves by ignoring it. If we 'take no cognizance of the report', then show it by not even saying so. If any US President opens his/her mouth on that issue, we must shut him/her down. Remember the 'peanuts' comment by Zia which made the GotUS & PotUS crawl before him and help Pakistan get nuclear weapons by enabling Pressler Amendment, covertly & overtly helping proliferation etc? Since the US is an unscrupulous administration by its very nature, any report from there, whether with or without the sanction of its Administration of the Congress, is equally to be treated appropriately. We seem to be unduly concerned by criticism and overly sensitive to that. Let's write something and throw it back at them. I know that our opposition would welcome the US reports and scoff at our retaliation. But, then, who cares?

member_29058 · Post by **member_29058** » 03 May 2016 18:38

Karan M wrote:Trump IMHO is very unlikely to win until and unless a bunch of horrible events occur so that amreekans become security minded. We are going to get Hillary as the next POTUS.

Some polls show him +2 against Hillary

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 May 2016 18:40

SSridhar wrote:Why is GoI even responding to this report? We must give it the contempt it deserves by ignoring it. If we 'take no cognizance of the report', then show it by not even saying so. If any US President opens his/her mouth on that issue, we must shut him/her down. Remember the 'peanuts' comment by Zia which made the GotUS & PotUS crawl before him and help Pakistan get nuclear weapons by enabling Pressler Amendment, covertly & overtly helping proliferation etc? Since the US is an unscrupulous administration by its very nature, any report from there, whether with or without the sanction of its Administration of the Congress, is equally to be treated appropriately. We seem to be unduly concerned by criticism and overly sensitive to that. Let's write something and throw it back at them. I know that our opposition would welcome the US reports and scoff at our retaliation. But, then, who cares?

SSridhar, I disagree. I think its time we openly counter them and show we won't remain silent.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 03 May 2016 19:12

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Why is GoI even responding to this report? We must give it the contempt it deserves by ignoring it. If we 'take no cognizance of the report', then show it by not even saying so. If any US President opens his/her mouth on that issue, we must shut him/her down. Remember the 'peanuts' comment by Zia which made the GotUS & PotUS crawl before him and help Pakistan get nuclear weapons by enabling Pressler Amendment, covertly & overtly helping proliferation etc? Since the US is an unscrupulous administration by its very nature, any report from there, whether with or without the sanction of its Administration of the Congress, is equally to be treated appropriately. We seem to be unduly concerned by criticism and overly sensitive to that. Let's write something and throw it back at them. I know that our opposition would welcome the US reports and scoff at our retaliation. But, then, who cares?
SSridhar, I disagree. I think its time we openly counter them and show we won't remain silent.

That is the right approach.. There are different interest groups in the US, as there are in India. There is a business group, there is a human rights group, there is an evangelist group, there is a security minded group.. Similarly, there is a mullah group in India, a hindutva group, a business group, a security minded group and so on.

Just because one group says something, that does not make it the final word of US policy. We need to engage with all of these groups, and its OK to oppose a few and reject/criticize some others. Further, 'ignoring them' is simply not an option. Each of these groups is immensely powerful, though some are more powerful than others. Left to their own special interests, they would happily insert irritants in an otherwise good relationship.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 03 May 2016 19:20

Guys, this is an extremely serious report ! Frankly, this has sullied the country's image overseas, and its reputation as a tolerant and liberal nation is at stake.

I hope the government is serious about addressing the issues raised and credible steps are taken to demonstrate to the world that such incidents to not recur.

I am of course talking of the Hindu American Foundation's report on the problem of Bullying in American schools faced by Hindu minors in that country.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 03 May 2016 20:07

I take back what I said. The chankian earth-shatter strategy employed here is truly

So now a thousand ppl like me know that India has been routinely denying visas to the US Cabal of Inquisitionist, Racists and Fools.

That Lantos-bowbow had to go beg for a Conference visa to go and biss off the PRC, attending the Tibetan Conference - where? IN INDIA, not Saudi Arabia. Got publicity for that conference, I wouldn't have heard of it otherwise.

Denying her visa for that would have been highly counterproductive, and made her look Victimized

Now it just makes her look like the sneaky idiot racist that bigot that she is.
PLUS, PRC has more reason to be bissed at USCIRF.

Those in the halls of South Blocks may be ourangutans, but SMART ourangutans.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 03 May 2016 20:56

The HAF report should alarm anyone who is sane. 25%, 33%, .. the numbers are huge about what is going in USA schools against Hindu kids.

Just to note, the set of people pushing for atrocity literature in USA school textbooks and the set of people hiding barbarism against Hindus within India under secularism are probably same people. In any case, standards of non existing secularism in USA and over the top exclusive secularism in India are totally different and no one cares to notice.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 May 2016 23:01

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 085686.cms

'Not angry at India' but at 'incompetent' US leaders: Donald Trump on outsourcing jobs

taking political advantage chorporate ishtyle!

did Indians help American economy or degraded them?

When jobs are exported to India, it is mundane and crappy processing jobs that Americans are lazy about doing it. It is not just in their leadership but in their blood. Why do you think the Hispanics think they want to enlarge their homeland in Amrikka!? not a single white man one could see on dirty side of things.. but however, if it is like $250 plumbing, he would be the first in line and trashing every other colored alien as incapable and useless for such precision plumbing works.

Trump is not finessing here!

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 03 May 2016 23:23

Kashi wrote:Either GoI is clueless as to what to do next and running around like a headless chicken, or there are plans in motion, plans so Chankian that even the most enlightened folks are unable to fully grasp the essence of it.

Yeah, that must be it..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 May 2016 01:54

MEA needs to have a no-visa list at the consulates and Embassy for US rabble rousers.

This is getting ridiculous.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 May 2016 02:21

^^^"there are plans in motion, plans so Chankian that even the most enlightened folks are unable to fully grasp the essence of it."

Indeed. Even Chankia is bewildered.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 04 May 2016 02:29

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^"there are plans in motion, plans so Chankian that even the most enlightened folks are unable to fully grasp the essence of it."

Indeed. Even Chankia is bewildered.

yeah, like putting their names on a banned list and then faxing the weekly updated list to embassies and consulates globally with a pre prepared fax sheet. yes, I know, kinda 20th century old school methodology and it takes some time.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 May 2016 02:46

SSridhar wrote:Why is GoI even responding to this report? We must give it the contempt it deserves by ignoring it. If we 'take no cognizance of the report', then show it by not even saying so. If any US President opens his/her mouth on that issue, we must shut him/her down. Remember the 'peanuts' comment by Zia which made the GotUS & PotUS crawl before him and help Pakistan get nuclear weapons by enabling Pressler Amendment, covertly & overtly helping proliferation etc? Since the US is an unscrupulous administration by its very nature, any report from there, whether with or without the sanction of its Administration of the Congress, is equally to be treated appropriately. We seem to be unduly concerned by criticism and overly sensitive to that. Let's write something and throw it back at them. I know that our opposition would welcome the US reports and scoff at our retaliation. But, then, who cares?

The right response is the way Trump is showing how to put down one's foes - by insulting them. Yes insulting is now mainstream.

We ought to say, America is not putting its best and brightest in USCIRF and basically it has become a shop of screwed up marxist and christian fundamentalist nutjobs. It has basically become the garbage can of the human resources dept. of the State Dept. Such fall in standards is regrettable.

I think all this "hurt" business is not good for us. Yes, USCIRF is out there to hurt us. Even a tiny weeny bit of surprise or hurt, that we may show at their reports, basically shows that we take them and the USA seriously. If we lash out at the USA or question their right to judge us or for that matter respond to any "allegation" in any report, we lose the game.

Attack should always be to ridicule the credentials of the people involved.

Our instinct says to lash out and reject US right to judge us. That is a lost game, because US knows that too and still goes and does it, because it feels right comes from might! And regardless of how forthright and vociferous our rejection is, the wall of rejection is never strong enough to not let the hurt sink in. So rejection alone is not helpful.

Problem is MEA doesn't do ridicule business and have no training. Colonial training has taught them to take everything a white man says as serious and only courtesy of highest European standards only can lift the brown man. That is BS.

As a confident nation, MEA should learn how to piss on everybody else and to laugh aloud. This report is a slap, courtesy cannot be the appropriate response. Correct response has to be a slap in return.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 May 2016 03:04

OTOH, without doing anything, they have basically put the word out on the street that anything associated with USCIRF is now persona non grata in India. Totally above-board. From what my yak-curdwalla tells me in downtown Ulan Bator, all the Jubilee Mission type deals have been carefully listed and are tracked, and they have learned how to identify most of the visa scams for conversionists. All this wide-eyed bhaiyyahood is for external consumption onlee.

I think the sheets have long-since been faxed to the consulates, just ask the US National Recon Office and NSA and they will "neither confirm nor deny" it. Much more, I think the consulates have learned to check the Internet.

There is such a thing as Speak Softly And With Terminological Exactitude but wield a big danda. Perhaps that is what GOI is practising.

Now I have no idea what chankiness was behind the Uighur visa-nonvisa deal, but I suspect that there was a behind-the-scenes trade done.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 May 2016 03:41

RajeshA wrote:..Correct response has to be a slap in return.

It could be also make them commit few mistakes that results in slapping themselves. it is possible, and available as one of the chanian option. but the note for MEA must be, make them do this real bad!

saip · Post by **saip** » 04 May 2016 06:07

Dr Lantos came on a tourist visa and with no immunity. A PIL would have sent her to jail and that would have taught her a lesson. A great opportunity missed.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 04 May 2016 09:25

if the ban lists have already been faxed then they are not reading it. goes to file 13. the circular file.

prolly too worried about losing their residency in a US city and the their kids missing out on tuition free college at the state university, and their future jobs in globalist America.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 May 2016 09:29

Now Lantos can;t even put up the indignant victim act of having been denied a visa by 'em unwashed browntroddens onlee...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 May 2016 13:32

A comment by me on a Carnegie Heritage article: Raja-Mandala: Delhi and Donald Trump by C. Raja

The biggest shift in American policy under Trump with the biggest global impact would be perhaps a change in how Islamic Radicalism is viewed in USA. The cozy relationship that US Administrations, both Republican and Democratic, have had with Islamic groups and countries, is about to change qualitatively. India too has had to deal with a Jihadist state like Pakistan. So this is a sphere where American and Indian interests may finally find an overlap. Basically, a political outsider had to rise in American politics, to redefine American interests which are in consonance with new realities and not hostage to the legacy of Cold War.

Another are which may appeal to India is when Trump is pushing its allies in Asia, like Japan and South Korea, to become self-sufficient in their security needs. That is a welcome departure from the past, where Asian security was held captive to that of USA, who itself was, using Mr. Donald Trump's words, being raped by China, and as such was not in a position to provide credible security.

Yes, India would feel the pinch of American protectionism, but India does have a long history of protectionism ourselves, and as such know a thing or two about riding out this phase and even profiting from it economically ourselves.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 May 2016 16:47

RajeshA wrote:Correct response has to be a slap in return.

Rajesh, I would gladly welcome that. But, do you think that our MEA's rejection of the report was such a slap? This was the same kind of 'rejection' we did last year too. May be even the year before. We claim that Indian Constitution guarantees freedom of religion blah blah. May be, it was all right the first time we rejected. But, we cannot hid behind the same arguments every year. The task is made easy for the babus as all that the MEA does is pull out the earlier rejection, dust it, just alter the date and release it to the Press? We have been rejecting OIC resolutions in this fashion for the last four decades. I plainly do not see any use in doing so.

The insult that you suggest is a more extreme reaction, though I am not against it. Given our reaction-cycles of the past and even the present, this has extremely low probability. The US President came here for the R-Day and said that there was religious intolerance in our country. I want Modi, when he addresses the joint-session of the Congress in June to highlight the many afflictions of the US. That is why I say that either we turn the tables on them (whether it cuts any ice with them or with anybody else is not the concern) pointing out far more serious intolerance, religious attacks, stereotyping, racism, lack of recourse to justice for minorities, human rights violations, discrimination, WASPs, KKKs, religious fundamentalism, Bible Belt etc in an equally striking fashion or we keep quiet. This proforma 'rejection' does nothing to enhance our claim to secularism. Our claims are never going to be accepted by the US because they use falsehood with an intention. 'Rejection' may be a 'terminological exactitude' that our Macaulay-educated bureaucrats are well versed with, but if we do not want to cross that Lakshman Rekha, we could as well keep quite. That is an insult too because we ignore them as not worth responding to.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 May 2016 17:14

SSridhar wrote:'Rejection' may be a 'terminological exactitude' that our Macaulay-educated bureaucrats are well versed with, but if we do not want to cross that Lakshman Rekha, we could as well keep quite. That is an insult too because we ignore them as not worth responding to.

It is not really the report that tries to actually pinprick us, but rather the global and Indian media infrastructure that feeds on such a report.

If in the report there is some mention of say Muslims not being treated here well in India, one would have all sorts of groups, including say the likes of Paki talk-shops, who would like to discuss the allegations in the report. Then we will have lots of sickulars in Indian media who would latch on to the report as well. This is all oxygen that the Intolerance-crowd keeps looking out for.

Ignoring is good. But US sees to it that the world does not allow us to ignore it.

My suggestion is that USCIRF people should themselves face ridicule, as a report written by ridiculous people ends up being considered ridiculous. We ought to talk about the lack of academic qualifications of USCIRF individuals, their motivations, the religious intolerance of the churches they visit, the pedophilic tendencies of their church leaders, their drug abuse in teenage years, who their paymasters are, their social media posts and allege they are working in concert with white supremacist groups. Basically do a hit job and finish off their careers.

It should be clear that anybody in USA who has the gumption of criticizing India would have his reputation ripped apart in the American press and even in the neighborhoods they live in.

Slander and calumny are part of modern warfare.

We need more presence in the American media scene.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 04 May 2016 19:27

http://uscirf.blogspot.in/

Audit USCIRF for violating IRFA law, submitting incorrect reports to US Congress and breaching US Supreme Court's Lemon test. Reform USCIRF & bring it under purview of FOIA law. USCIRF emphasis on punishment,& biased cursing, is religious forcedom not freedom.

http://indiafacts.org/what-is-the-uscirf-hiding/

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 04 May 2016 21:53

RajeshA wrote:A comment by me on a Carnegie Heritage [
The biggest shift in American policy under Trump with the biggest global impact would be perhaps a change in how Islamic Radicalism is viewed in USA. The cozy relationship that US Administrations, both Republican and Democratic, have had with Islamic groups and countries, is about to change qualitatively. India too has had to deal with a Jihadist state like Pakistan. So this is a sphere where American and Indian interests may finally find an overlap. Basically, a political outsider had to rise in American politics, to redefine American interests which are in consonance with new realities and not hostage to the legacy of Cold War.Another are which may appeal to India is when Trump is pushing its allies in Asia, like Japan and South Korea, to become self-sufficient in their security needs. That is a welcome departure from the past, where Asian security was held captive to that of USA, who itself was, using Mr. Donald Trump's words, being raped by China, and as such was not in a position to provide credible security.Yes, India would feel the pinch of American protectionism, but India does have a long history of protectionism ourselves, and as such know a thing or two about riding out this phase and even profiting from it economically ourselves.

Exactly,POTUS Trump will be Strategic Plus for Yindia. Our Protagonist antagonist/s will be fighting to ward of Wrath Of T.Khan while we slowly climb to mountain top. Mr.T bring the potential for us to amend the setback of last millennium in few decades.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 May 2016 21:56

So come 2017, some of us would have to be asking the World to forgive us for electing Trump?

pattnayak · Post by **pattnayak** » 04 May 2016 22:10

Arjun wrote:Hindu American Foundation Releases Bullying Report
Report details the bullying and bias that Hindu American youths face in American schools as a result of cultural stereotypes and textbook inaccuracies.

I am amazed at the sheer hatred these people have for Hinduism. If you open that link, there is a quote, "the caste system exists only because of Hinduism". Apparently this line is one of the problematic viewpoints taught to impressionable minds in American schools as highlighted by HAF report.

Now here is the kicker. The article quoted this particular line on caste system and Hinduism and gives the reader an option to tweet this story. If one does do so, the tweet will go out with "caste system exists only because of Hinduism" followed by a link to this url. But knowing Twitter damage would already be done if tweeted and retweeted by idiots.

I am just amazed at the sheer mischievousness of these fools. (Business Wire, not HAF)

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 04 May 2016 22:19

Hope PM Modi does not give further concessions to until like LEMOA/CISMOA. Far to many concessions have already been made - most prominently in the slow pace of strategic missile (Agni-V) testing. Our PM would do better by engaging less with foreign powers and focusing on what is necessary to boost our sovereign power.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 May 2016 23:25

ramdas wrote:Hope PM Modi does not give further concessions to until like LEMOA/CISMOA. Far to many concessions have already been made - most prominently in the slow pace of strategic missile (Agni-V) testing. Our PM would do better by engaging less with foreign powers and focusing on what is necessary to boost our sovereign power.

After 2 years I have to say this that the prime minister needs to stay home and stop these foreign trips. India will be taken forward by Indians not by licking the back sides of foreigners. When India was a great power during the Gupta and mauryan periods we neither had this so called western democracy nor so much running behind the powers of that period. All this talk oh this is the 21st century things are different.No they are not fundamentally.Reward business houses who play by the rules and support the country and punish the chor businessmen.concentrate on India at home is my request to the prime minister and not be perpetually on useless foreign trips.

vivek.rao · Post by **vivek.rao** » 05 May 2016 00:29

RajeshA wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Why is GoI even responding to this report? We must give it the contempt it deserves by ignoring it. If we 'take no cognizance of the report', then show it by not even saying so. If any US President opens his/her mouth on that issue, we must shut him/her down. Remember the 'peanuts' comment by Zia which made the GotUS & PotUS crawl before him and help Pakistan get nuclear weapons by enabling Pressler Amendment, covertly & overtly helping proliferation etc? Since the US is an unscrupulous administration by its very nature, any report from there, whether with or without the sanction of its Administration of the Congress, is equally to be treated appropriately. We seem to be unduly concerned by criticism and overly sensitive to that. Let's write something and throw it back at them. I know that our opposition would welcome the US reports and scoff at our retaliation. But, then, who cares?
The right response is the way Trump is showing how to put down one's foes - by insulting them. Yes insulting is now mainstream.

We ought to say, America is not putting its best and brightest in USCIRF and basically it has become a shop of screwed up marxist and christian fundamentalist nutjobs. It has basically become the garbage can of the human resources dept. of the State Dept. Such fall in standards is regrettable.

I think all this "hurt" business is not good for us. Yes, USCIRF is out there to hurt us. Even a tiny weeny bit of surprise or hurt, that we may show at their reports, basically shows that we take them and the USA seriously. If we lash out at the USA or question their right to judge us or for that matter respond to any "allegation" in any report, we lose the game.

Attack should always be to ridicule the credentials of the people involved.

Our instinct says to lash out and reject US right to judge us. That is a lost game, because US knows that too and still goes and does it, because it feels right comes from might! And regardless of how forthright and vociferous our rejection is, the wall of rejection is never strong enough to not let the hurt sink in. So rejection alone is not helpful.

Problem is MEA doesn't do ridicule business and have no training. Colonial training has taught them to take everything a white man says as serious and only courtesy of highest European standards only can lift the brown man. That is BS.

As a confident nation, MEA should learn how to piss on everybody else and to laugh aloud. This report is a slap, courtesy cannot be the appropriate response. Correct response has to be a slap in return.

100% with you

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 05 May 2016 02:31

snahata wrote:
ramdas wrote:Hope PM Modi does not give further concessions to until like LEMOA/CISMOA. Far to many concessions have already been made - most prominently in the slow pace of strategic missile (Agni-V) testing. Our PM would do better by engaging less with foreign powers and focusing on what is necessary to boost our sovereign power.
After 2 years I have to say this that the prime minister needs to stay home and stop these foreign trips. India will be taken forward by Indians not by licking the back sides of foreigners. When India was a great power during the Gupta and mauryan periods we neither had this so called western democracy nor so much running behind the powers of that period. All this talk oh this is the 21st century things are different.No they are not fundamentally.Reward business houses who play by the rules and support the country and punish the chor businessmen.concentrate on India at home is my request to the prime minister and not be perpetually on useless foreign trips.

Modi-ji wants work deals. can't do that by staying home and being a house cat.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 May 2016 05:48

I see two issues here: those pertaining to NRI kids in the US and the institutional funded group that produces reports ever so often.

The latter needs GoI attention. I just do not think much can be done without the GoI.

For the prior I took two approaches: looked at census data and conducted a complete, but unscientific survey of my and other kids, both NRI and Caucasians.

Two things about "census": bible belt and actual census data.

Here is the broad look and feel of the BB:

Following is the census data FOR NRIs (for 2010) by County across the US:

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/asianame ... ps/#indian

It is an interactive map, so, highlight any County to get pertinent data of NRIs.

Observation: *most* NRIs are outside the BB. Most is the operative word. Now the combination of low NRI density and BB will produce the 25-40% results - it is a given.

Which led me to ask around. Kids that I have known for 25+ years, without an exception, said they have not faced any discrimination in the schooling system. Work, yes, but that is not based on religion. All kids I know have been in work force for between 5-10 years. The early birds are approaching 6 figures (just around 30+ in age AND making decisions that coudl impact "discrimination").

IF my analysis, that the harassed kids, are from low density + BB, then I can accept those stats. I do not see, given the situation with history, much coming out of it. Raise concerns.

But,I would never run with those stats are representative of the nation. Not even close.

On a very personal note, the very first time, I did land in the Bible Belt (and was not aware of its implication then), but I had a wonderful time: Sports. And ever since I have never had a bad incidence. Same with my kids. My youngest used to be a life guard and to this day he is approached by people of all ages who know him, but he does not know 99% of them. Today he is known all over because he builds and races motorcycles. I think mingling helps a lot - without loss of any of our heritage.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 May 2016 13:32

On the BK td.,a US analyst on his viewpoint in his book.

A perceptive American view on US Arms Sales to South Asian states
Posted on May 5, 2016 by Bharat Karnad

An insightful view of arms transfers to South Asia by a former American diplomat who served in the Delhi Embassy. Published in ‘American Diplomacy’, April 2016 and accessible at http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/item/ ... _arms.html.
———–
Are South Asian Arms Sales in the U.S. National Interest?
The Foreign Policy Implications
by Jon P. Dorschner

In 1989 I wrote an article urging the United States to stop selling weapons in South Asia.1 It took a liberal stance, arguing that such a step would enable the U.S. to occupy the moral high ground. The U.S. should not sell expensive weapons systems to some of the poorest countries on earth. The U.S. sells weapons to both India and Pakistan, which they then use in senseless wars against each other. The U.S. reduces its credibility as an honest broker by selling weapons to both protagonists, and cannot honestly mediate the Indo/Pakistan conflict.

In his latest book Indian security analyst Bharat Karnad2 approaches this issue from a very different perspective. Karnad is a hardcore realist. He wants India to assume its rightful place among the world’s “great powers” and become a formidable military power. However, he sees Indian dependence on weapons systems imported from the United States and other developed nations as a drag on Indian potential. He calls for India to eschew imports and embark on a radical indigenization program to replace imported arms with those made by an expanded Indian arms industry that includes both the public and private sectors.

At first glance it appear there is considerable light between the liberal take and Karnad’s realist stance. In actuality, there is considerable overlap. Arms imports drain the Indian national exchequer. They consume valuable resources better spent on economic development and poverty alleviation. India’s number one problem is poverty. Unless and until India makes sufficient inroads into its excruciatingly high poverty rate, it will never become a world power.

Karnad correctly asserts that India could produce practically everything needed by its armed forces if it took the necessary steps to mobilize its potential. Such a development would have a profound positive impact on India’s economic development. Instead of spending valuable hard currency abroad, India would use its funds to put its own people to work. Indigenous weapons systems would be considerably cheaper than imported ones, freeing up funding for investment in Indian infrastructure and social programs. India could change from an arms importer to an arms exporter, further boosting the Indian economy.

As a realist, Karnad insists all foreign policy decisions must benefit India’s national interest. The same holds true for American foreign policy decisions. The overwhelming majority of American policy makers shares Karnad’s realist orientation and utilizes the same national interest test when making decisions for the United States.

There are plenty of liberal arguments for the United States to get out of the arms business in South Asia. By selling high-ticket weapons systems, the United States is an accomplice to South Asian policy makers who place weapons purchases above poverty reduction. Taking a moral stance against such policies increases American soft power by increasing American credibility. Imagine if the U.S. announced that instead of competing for billions of dollars in weapons contracts, it would market alternative energy systems to India, or work with the Indian public health sector to help improve the country’s medical infrastructure. American companies would reap enormous economic benefits from such projects. While the American arms industry is a powerful player in the American economy, it is only one sector. Must arms sales drive U.S. policy even when they do not benefit U.S. national interest?

But realist arguments can be used to advocate the same policy. Karnad and American realists share the same security concerns. They are worried about the balance of power in Asia. They see a rising China as a potential security threat, and believe China is seeking to become the Asian hegemon. Both Indian and American policy makers do not want to see this happen. They are determined to ensure India’s future security and prevent Chinese hegemony in Asia.

India must devise and implement a military policy aimed at ensuring its security from its principal threat. The principal threat is China, not Pakistan. While India and Pakistan have fought repeated military conflicts, no one seriously argues that Pakistan poses an existential threat to India. To the contrary, realists agree that it is in the national interest of both India and Pakistan to end their military confrontation and begin cooperation to ensure economic development of the region. South Asia’s inability to establish a credible free trade zone holds all South Asian countries back and prevents economic development. All the ingredients have long been in place for a rapprochement between India and Pakistan based not on mutual affection but mutual interests. Realists are the first to argue that sentimentality plays no role in foreign policy formulation. States cooperate not out of affection but national interest.

Eventually, Indian and Pakistani policymakers will agree on this fact and find the courage to take the necessary steps to make this happen. The terrorist threat in Pakistan may prove to be the necessary catalyst. There is a growing realization in the Pakistani military that it needs peace with India to free up military resources to tackle the existential threat posed by Islamic militancy. Pakistan has diverted military forces from the Indian border to counter-terrorist operations. This has not reduced Pakistani security.

While India hopes to “manage” its relationship with China through diplomatic engagement, the Chinese threat will always be present and will only grow as China increases its military and economic power and becomes more assertive. The China/India border is not properly demarcated and protracted India/China border talks have made no progress. China continues to claim large tracts of Indian territory. To meet this security challenge, India must extricate itself from the India/Pakistan dispute and recalibrate its military. Ending its reliance on arms imports will make India stronger and its military more credible. It will provide India with the infrastructure to defend itself in a protracted conflict without worrying about potential arms embargos by foreign arms suppliers.

American policy makers should realize that the indigenization of the Indian arms procurement process in in the national interest of both countries. A stronger and more credible Indian military provides India with more options. This is because it can defend itself without relying on foreign patrons. This client/patron relationship has long been a source of humiliation for India that has prevented genuine close relations. It removal would make it easier for the United States and India to cooperate on a more equal basis to help provide security in Asia.

This would have a big impact on nuclear weapons in South Asia. India’s growing superiority in conventional military capability compels Pakistan to rely more and more on nuclear weapons. If India took concrete steps to convince Pakistan it has no designs on Pakistani sovereignty, it would remove Pakistan’s sense of insecurity and allow the two countries could begin to stand back from the brink.

An India militarily self-sufficient in conventional military hardware is more capable of providing its own security and less reliant on nuclear weapons, making it easier for India and Pakistan to negotiate credible limits on their nuclear arsenals. Nuclear weapons programs are incredibly expensive and serious economic drains. As both countries build more nuclear weapons and integrate them into their defense plans, the danger of nuclear war (either intentional or accidental) increases exponentially. Pakistan cannot continue to keep spending valuable resources on a massive nuclear arsenal aimed only at intimidating India.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2016 19:45

U.S., India to bolder anti-submarine capability amid rising tensions with aggressive China

NEW DELHI/HONG KONG (Reuters) – India and the United States are in talks to help each other track submarines in the Indian Ocean, military officials say, a move that could further tighten defense ties between New Delhi and Washington as China steps up its undersea activities.

Both the United States and India are growing concerned at the reach and ambition of the Chinese navy, which is taking an increasingly assertive stance in the South China Sea and is challenging India’s domination in the Indian Ocean.
NT3

New Delhi, shedding its decades-old reluctance to be drawn into America’s embrace, agreed last month to open up its military bases to the United States in exchange for access to weapons technology to help it narrow the gap with China.

The two sides also said their navies will hold talks on anti submarine warfare (ASW), an area of sensitive military technology and closely held tactics that only allies share.

“These types of basic engagements will be the building blocks for an enduring Navy-to-Navy relationship that we hope will grow over time into a shared ASW capability,” one U.S. official familiar with India-U.S. military cooperation said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Indian naval officials say Chinese submarines have been sighted on an average four times every three months. Some are seen near India’s Andamans and Nicobar islands that lie near the Malacca Straits, the entry to the South China Sea through which more than 80 percent of China’s fuel supplies pass.

India and the United States, which already conduct joint naval exercises, both fly the new version of the P-8 aircraft, making information sharing easier on highly sensitive submarine tracking activities.

The P-8 is Washington’s most advanced submarine hunting weapon, equipped with sensors that can track and identify submarines by sonar and other means.

An Indian naval spokesman declined to comment on the proposed anti-submarine warfare cooperation with the United States.

But an Indian naval source, briefed on the discussions, said the focus of the next set of joint exercises to take place in the northern Philippine Sea in June will be on anti-submarine warfare.

Japan, a close U.S. ally whose submarines are believed to track Chinese submarines in the western Pacific, will also be a participant in the exercises.

INTENSE SURVEILLANCE

Two linked factors are driving the co-operation, say regional military attaches and security experts.

The prospect of active patrols by nuclear-armed Chinese submarines has sparked intense surveillance activity around the China’s southern submarine base on Hainan Island, and nearby waters.

India, meanwhile, is preparing to launch its first locally-built submarine armed with nuclear tipped missiles.

So just as U.S. attack submarines are seeking to track the Chinese nuclear armed submarines in the Pacific, the Chinese are expected to send their own attack submarines to the Indian Ocean in greater numbers to scrutinize the Indian patrols.

Collin Koh, a submarine expert at Singapore’s S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said increased U.S. submarine and surveillance activity was being seen across the region.

“We will see the Indian Ocean grow in importance, too, particularly around traditional chokeholds, such as the approaches to the Malacca Straits and the Nicobar islands, so an improved U.S. relationship with the major submarine player in the area, India, is very significant,” Koh said.

BOLSTERING INDIAN CAPABILITIES

Initially, the United States as the world leader in anti-submarine warfare is likely to be bolstering Indian capabilities in the field.

But in time, experts say each country could be covering stretches of the Indian Ocean through which two-thirds of the world’s trade moves.

David Brewster, an expert on the strategic rivalry in Indian Ocean at the Australian National University, said anti submarine warfare collaboration may eventually include Australia, another U.S. ally which just ordered 12 new submarines.

“We are likely to ultimately see a division of responsibilities in the Indian Ocean between those three countries, and with the potential to also share facilities.”

China for its part is seeking to secure its energy and trade transportation links by building ports and other infrastructure for countries such as Sri Lanka that lie along the vital shipping route.

Asked about collaboration between India and the United States on submarine warfare, Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for China’s Foreign Ministry, said China had noted countries in the region engaging in military cooperation.

“We hope that the relevant cooperation is normal, and that it can be meaningful to the peace and stability of the region,” she said.

(Additional reporting by David Brunnstrom in WASHINGTON and Megha Rajagopalan in BEIJING; Editing by Lincoln Feast

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2016 19:56

With Chinese Submarines Spotted Near Andamans, India Turns To US

India and the United States are in talks to help each other track submarines in the Indian Ocean, military officials say, a move that could further tighten defense ties between New Delhi and Washington as China steps up its undersea activities.

Both the United States and India are growing concerned at the reach and ambition of the Chinese navy, which is taking an increasingly assertive stance in the South China Sea and is challenging India's domination in the Indian Ocean.

Indian naval officials say Chinese submarines have been sighted on an average four times every three months. Some are seen near India's Andamans and Nicobar islands that lie near the Malacca Straits, the entry to the South China Sea through which more than 80 percent of China's fuel supplies pass.

New Delhi, shedding its decades-old reluctance to be drawn into America's embrace, agreed last month to open up its military bases to the United States in exchange for access to weapons technology to help it narrow the gap with China.

The two sides also said their navies will hold talks on anti submarine warfare (ASW), an area of sensitive military technology and closely held tactics that only allies share.

An Indian naval spokesman declined to comment on the proposed anti-submarine warfare cooperation with the United States.

But an Indian naval source, briefed on the discussions, said the focus of the next set of joint exercises to take place in the northern Philippine Sea in June will be on anti-submarine warfare.

Japan, a close US ally whose submarines are believed to track Chinese submarines in the western Pacific, will also be a participant in the exercises.

India is also preparing to launch its first locally-built submarine armed with nuclear tipped missiles.

So just as US attack submarines are seeking to track the Chinese nuclear armed submarines in the Pacific, the Chinese are expected to send their own attack submarines to the Indian Ocean in greater numbers to scrutinize the Indian patrols.

Collin Koh, a submarine expert at Singapore's S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies, said increased US submarine and surveillance activity was being seen across the region.

"We will see the Indian Ocean grow in importance, too, particularly around traditional chokeholds, such as the approaches to the Malacca Straits and the Nicobar islands, so an improved US relationship with the major submarine player in the area, India, is very significant," Mr Koh said.

China for its part is seeking to secure its energy and trade transportation links by building ports and other infrastructure for countries such as Sri Lanka that lie along the vital shipping route.

Asked about collaboration between India and the United States on submarine warfare, Hua Chunying, a spokeswoman for China's Foreign Ministry, said China had noted countries in the region engaging in military cooperation.

"We hope that the relevant cooperation is normal, and that it can be meaningful to the peace and stability of the region," she said.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 07 May 2016 20:18

Damn, the propaganda never stops!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2016 20:33

5 Reasons Why India Agreed to a Logistics Agreement With the United States

The decision “in principle” by India and the United States to sign the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA) during the visit of U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter to India last month marks a big leap of faith, for India’s foreign policy in particular. Gone are the days when New Delhi’s foreign policy mandarins kept Washington D.C. at an arm’s length, believing that India’s interests were best served by being close to countries like Russia and espousing causes like non-alignment and third-world unity.

However, many things changed for India when the Cold War ended and the erstwhile Soviet Union broke up. Since then, Indian foreign policy has undergone a complete makeover. Though India’s nuclear tests of 1998 brought it sharp rebuke from the United States (and many other nations), things started improving after a visit from then-U.S. President Bill Clinton in 2000. There has been no looking back ever since.

The U.S.-India civilian nuclear deal of 2008, which Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh staked his political future on, further changed things. The United States also helped India get a waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), even though India has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) or the Comprehensive Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT).

The LEMOA envisages the militaries of the U.S. and India sharing facilities for refueling , spare parts, and supplies. It is noteworthy that by deciding to go for the LEMOA, the Modi government has been able to overcome the resistance to the same agreement during the two terms of the previous UPA (United Progressive Alliance) regime.

So, what has pushed India’s hand to agree to the LEMOA now?

For one, both India and the United States have concerns about Beijing’s growing aggressiveness in the South China Sea and beyond. New Delhi has not been very happy with Beijing of late. China has put a “technical hold” on India’s attempts to designate the Pakistan-based terror outfit Jaish-e-Mohammed’s chief Maulana Masood Azhar as a terrorist at the United Nations. At the same time, China has been going all out to woo countries in India’s neighborhood like Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Maldives. Beijing’s island building activities in the South China Sea and its deployment of missile batteries on Woody Island in the South China Sea have set it on a collision course with the United States and its allies in the region, like Japan and the Philippines.

Second, relations between India and the United States have dramatically improved since the end of the Cold War. In 2015, U.S. President Barack Obama became the first U.S. president to visit India twice during his presidency when he was the chief guest at India’s Republic Day celebrations on January 26. During his visit, the two sides released a joint statement where they affirmed “the importance of safeguarding maritime security and ensuring freedom of navigation and over flight throughout the region, especially in the South China Sea.” This in itself is very significant since New Delhi had studiously avoided getting entangled in the South China Sea imbroglio. In the recent years, India has become one of the biggest purchasers of U.S. military hardware, a sea change from the times when the country used to source the majority of its defense needs from Russia.

Third, maritime collaboration between India and the United States has been increasing. The commander of U.S. Pacific Command, Admiral Harry B Harris, went on record to say that that Beijing was building “a great wall of sand” in the South China Sea. At the Raisina Dialogue in India in March this year, Harris floated the idea of cooperation between India, Japan, Australia, and Japan in the maritime realm. This could be a throwback to the times when these four countries had come together to form what was dubbed the “Quadrilateral Initiative,” thought the project was rolled back in the light of protests from Beijing, in a classic case of the baby being thrown out along with the bath water. Besides, India’s ties with U.S. allies in the region, like Japan and Australia, have also improved by leaps and bounds since then.

Fourth, India now aspires to play a greater role in international affairs. New Delhi is angling to be a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). In addition, India, under Prime Minister Narendra Modi, has rapidly moved away from its traditional stance of non-alignment to one of multi-alignment. By signing the logistics support agreement, New Delhi also stands to gain by gaining access to U.S. military facilities.

Modi is scheduled to visit the United States later this year for a state visit and many more significant announcements could be in the works. Obama will be leaving office early next year and there are increasing concerns in New Delhi that should a Republican administration take office in Washington D.C., Indo-U.S. bilateral ties could be hit, especially as the Republican frontrunner Donald Trump has made his opposition to foreign entanglements and even outsourcing quite clear. A Trump win may hit other aspects of the bilateral as well. Given these trends, it makes perfect sense for New Delhi to make hay while the sun shines. When all is said and done, while it would be incorrect to dub India as a U.S. ally now, it seems that there is a sufficient groundswell of public opinion and political capital in the country to favor a revamp of its ties with the world’s sole superpower.

Dr. Rupakjyoti Borah is currently a Research Fellow with the Tokyo-based Japan Forum for Strategic Studies. He specializes on India’s strategic ties with countries in the Indo-Pacific region and its maritime interests. The views expressed are personal. Twitter@rupakj.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 May 2016 20:35

arshyam wrote:Damn, the propaganda never stops!

The Great Game never sleeps.

JK.

As I had said eons ago, all this - at a very high level - was bound to happen. Very predictable.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 08 May 2016 04:34

I'm x-posting this. It's relevant to this thread due to discussions regarding the LSA/LEMOA.

____________________
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/3593 ... na-okinawa

"Contamination Revealed at Largest US Air Force Base in Asia: Kadena, Okinawa"
May 6, 2016

Kadena Air Base hosts the biggest combat wing in the USAF -- the 18th Wing -- and, during the past seven decades, the installation has served as an important launch pad for wars in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq. Given the long history of Kadena Air Base and its city-sized scale, it is easy to understand why the USAF calls it "The Keystone of the Pacific." ....

In Japan, there are 130 US bases -- 32 of which are located on Okinawa -- but the Americans who serve upon them and local residents know nothing of the dangers these installations pose to human health or the environment.

At the root of the problem lies the Japan-US Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) which makes no allowances for Japanese officials to conduct pollution checks within US bases -- nor does it hold the military responsible for cleaning up land returned to civilian usage ....

Since SOFA absolves the US of all financial responsibility to clean up contaminated land, the costs are borne by Japanese tax-payers. The financial burden of military contamination is particularly heavy on Okinawa, Japan's poorest prefecture, where US bases take up roughly 20% of Okinawa's main island but contribute only 5% to the prefecture's economy ....

In January, the USAF released 8725 pages of accident reports, environmental investigations and emails related to contamination at Kadena Air Base. Dated from the mid-1990s to August 2015, the documents are believed to be the first time such recent information detailing pollution on an active US base in Japan has been made public.

The documents catalogue approximately 415 environmental incidents between 1998 and 2015; 245 of these occurred since 2010. Incidents range from small leaks which stayed within the base to large spills discharging tens of thousands of liters of fuel and raw sewage into local rivers.

During the 1998-2015 period, leaks totaled almost 40,000 liters of jet fuel, 13,000 liters of diesel and 480,000 liters of sewage. Of the 206 incidents noted between 2010 and 2014, 51 were blamed on accidents or human error; only 23 were reported to the Japanese authorities.

The year 2014 saw the highest number of accidents: 59 -- only two of which were reported to Tokyo.

Because large parts of the documents have been redacted and there are no reports for the 2004-2007 period, the actual statistics are likely much higher ....

Meanwhile, in November 2009, service members dumped 17 liters of liquid fog solution into storm drains despite manufacturers' instructions not to release the substance into sewer systems. Likewise, in July 2014, service members dumped hundreds of liters of medical waste -- described as "expired shelf-life injectable fluids" -- into on-base drains. "It's very unlikely that anything will be seen or reported but if the milky solution reached the Hija river we will have a very upset public," stated the report. Neither the 2009 nor the 2014 incident was reported to the Japanese government ....

One of Okinawa's most serious environmental incidents in recent memory is the discovery of 108 barrels of toxic waste between 2013 and 2015 on land that was once part of Kadena Air Base. The FOIA-released documents shed new light on the military's role in the incident and USAF attempts to downplay its severity to parents whose children attend the adjacent Bob Hope Primary School and Amelia Earhart Intermediate School.

Piecing together a timeline of the incident from the reports, it appears that around 1964, the military dumped barrels containing mixed hazardous waste into ravines on the outskirts of Kadena Air Base. Around 1980, the two schools were built in the vicinity and then in 1987, some nearby land was returned to civilian control. In 1996, local authorities constructed a soccer pitch on the site.

In June 2013, workers renovating the pitch unearthed dozens of the buried barrels -- some of which contained high levels of dioxin. Although the discovery was within meters of the school playing fields, USAF officials did not inform teachers or parents. No dust control screens were erected to prevent the possible spread of contamination and, as excavation work went on nearby, American students were allowed to continue playing outdoors.

When military families finally learned about the toxic waste six months later, they were furious. In response, base officials conducted their first checks of the school grounds on December 31. However they only tested surface soil and did not conduct magnetic tests to ascertain whether any barrels lay buried beneath the school fields. In February 2014, USAF officials declared the school grounds safe but the laboratory test results -- totaling 107 pages -- have been entirely redacted from the FOIA documents.

Exacerbating suspicions of a cover-up was another announcement in February assuring service members that dioxin only caused the skin disease, chloracne, but "No other human health effects have been proven." This contradicts EPA data that dioxin "can cause cancer, reproductive and developmental problems, damage to the immune system, and can interfere with hormones." ....

Paula Davidson and her family lived on Kadena Air Base in the 1980s. During this time, her two children developed illnesses that were later diagnosed as cancer. A third child, conceived on Okinawa and born in the US, fell sick with cancer of the brain. "I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that being exposed to toxic chemicals on Okinawa caused his illness."

Two of her children died in their thirties. "Now that they have gone, I guess they have just become another statistic," said Davidson.

I recommend reading the entire article carefully.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 08 May 2016 04:43

Avarachan wrote:I'm x-posting this. It's relevant to this thread due to discussions regarding the LSA/LEMOA.

____________________
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/3593 ... na-okinawa

"Contamination Revealed at Largest US Air Force Base in Asia: Kadena, Okinawa"
May 6, 2016

I don't think this has any relevance to LSA/LEMOA but if you think contamination is the natural result of any engagement with the US, it's certainly a novel way to argue against it.

The source you've cited also appears to be 'unimpeachable'

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 May 2016 04:55

Not signing the agreement is one thing. But

I'm x-posting this. It's relevant to this thread due to discussions regarding the LSA/LEMOA.

____________________
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/3593 ... na-okinawa

"Contamination Revealed at Largest US Air Force Base in Asia: Kadena, Okinawa"

Misrepresenting is another.

Neither the LSA nor the India specific version LEMOA accommodate for a "base". It is more a facility. The two are not even close.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 May 2016 06:58

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/us/de ... p=cur&_r=0
Debate Erupts in California Over Curriculum on India’s History

LOS ANGELES — Victors are said to write history. But in California, history is being written by a committee that is at the center of a raging debate over how to tell the story of South Asia as it tries to update textbooks and revise curriculums for Grades 6 and 7.The dispute centers on whether the region that includes modern-day India, Pakistan and Nepal should be referred to as India or as South Asia, to represent the plurality of cultures there — particularly because India was not a nation-state until 1947. It also touches on how the culture of the region is portrayed, including women’s role in society and the vestiges of the caste system.It might seem somewhat arcane. But it has prompted petition drives, as well as a #DontEraseIndia social media campaign and a battle of opinion pieces.When the committee met earlier this spring, dozens of students turned out at the State Capitol, some in tears, earnestly telling the educators that anything other than India would amount to erasing their heritage.State educators have also heard debates about the portrayal of so-called comfort women in World War II, the Armenian genocide and discrimination against Sikhs in the United States. But none of the arguments have persisted as strongly as the fight over the Indian subcontinent. That is a reflection of the transformation in California’s population, where Asians, including South Asians, are the fastest-growing demographic.“We have a lot of people engaged in this because we have such a vibrant, diverse state,” said Tom Adams, the deputy superintendent of the California Department of Education, adding, “What we’re really trying to do here is make sure that the children of California have a curriculum that helps them understand all these groups.”But first, the committee has to deal with a fight that mirrors similar arguments being made in India, where Hindu nationalist governments have begun overhauls of textbooks in some states.
On one side are advocates from the Hindu American Foundation, which seeks to shape the image of Hinduism in the United States. Backed by some scholars, they want the entire area under dispute to be referred to as India, reflecting what they say is the most important influence in the area.They also want the caste system to be explained as a phenomenon of the region, not as a Hindu practice — an idea that is not universally accepted in India.A group of other scholars challenge the historical accuracy of this view. They say the area should be referred to as South Asia.They also say the foundation is trying to sanitize history by wiping out any link between Hinduism and castes.The debate has been closely watched by Indian newspapers, which chronicle the smallest changes in the proposals. California students are also jumping in with passion.
A page from a California textbook describing the caste system in India. Ms. Shetty wondered why a photograph showing an untouchable walking through a trash-strewn street was included in the book.
Vidhima Shetty, a high school freshman, told the committee that using the term South Asian would be akin to asking her to change her name.“Names are what define us as people; they represent character and personality,” she said. “The board is confusing our cultural terms with geographical terms. By removing India as a term from the textbooks this leaves Indian-American children with no ethnic or cultural identification to turn to. When we acknowledge ourselves as South Asians, us Hindus are forced to re-identify ourselves as something we are not.”
There are roughly 2.2 million immigrants from India living in the United States, according to the Migration Policy Institute, a Washington-based think tank. California, with its vibrant technology industry, has attracted the most in the nation, as many have settled in the Bay Area and in Southern California.According to the foundation, nearly half of the 2.5 million Hindus in the United States live in California.The resolution could affect schoolchildren well beyond California’s borders. Although the standards that the commission approves will be written into California’s textbooks, because the state is so large, textbooks that are made based on its framework are often used elsewhere as well.But the Hindu-American group has been particularly active in trying to shape California’s history curriculum. For the last decade, it has been pushing — unsuccessfully — for public schools to give more attention in the curriculum to the Hindu religion and Indian culture.The language at issue appears in dozens of places in the sixth- and seventh-grade history curriculum where either the terms India or South Asia could be used. Scholarly groups on both sides have submitted suggestions to the committee.For example, a reference to “Early Civilizations of India” could be “Early Civilizations of South Asia,” or “In this unit students learn about ancient societies in India” could instead be “In this unit students learn about ancient societies in South Asia.”“The civilization that is being covered is Indian,” said Suhag Shukla, the executive director of the Hindu American Foundation, which started the social media campaign #DontEraseIndia. “When you talk about ancient India, that’s the birthplace of Indian students,” she said.“This is an issue not only about accuracy but also cultural competency,” Ms. Shukla said.But scholars like Thomas Hansen, a professor of anthropology and South Asian studies at Stanford University, say this position glosses over an uncomfortable topic.Mr. Hansen has butted heads with the Hindu American Foundation for more than a decade over how Indian history is taught in California.“The issue is when you can use the term Indian and when you can use Hinduism,” he said, as opposed to South Asia. “This group has a lot of interest in calling everything Hindu and Indian so that it can equate modern-day India with historic roots. But it’s absurd. It would be like calling Ancient Rome Italy.”He said that the caste system was an integral part of Indian society even today with roots in the Hindu religion.“It distorts reality,” Mr. Hansen said. “This is important for children to understand. Our duty is to make sure that the history is keeping with the scholarly research rather than give in to what a particular group wants.”Ms. Shukla said her group was not trying to deny the fact that castes exist, but arguing only that tying it to Hinduism was unfair. She said many students had reported being bullied after they completed the current teachings about Hinduism and the caste system.She recalled that when she was a child in Cupertino in the 1980s, she was asked to stand up in her classes to explain the caste system and answer questions about whether her marriage would be arranged.“Every religion has some form of caste and discrimination,” Ms. Shukla said. “We’re not trying to deny the fact that this became a hierarchical and discriminatory practice, but this has to be discussed in a nuanced manner.”During a hearing last month, dozens of Indian students spoke out against the changes the South Asian scholars have suggested to the commission, accusing them of “Hinduphobia” and robbing them of selfhood.Ms. Shukla is also pressing the state to include the idea that Hindus in India have a historical acceptance of religious diversity, allowing Jews and Zoroastrians to come to India as they escaped persecution in nearby lands.Michael Witzel, a Harvard University professor of Sanskrit who has also been pressing California for changes that Hindu advocates have objected to for nearly a decade, said the entire controversy was one of image protection..”