LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

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Karan M
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 27 May 2016 23:43

Parrikar held 18 meetings with IAF & ADA both clearly not ADA alone and HAL would have also been involved.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 May 2016 03:38

BTW what does kaluram mean? Pejorative reference to dark skinned southies running ADA, HAL etc (presumably per gents information) or general put down regarding desi Indians.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 28 May 2016 03:53

neither answer makes it better :( but I think it was the later

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rahulm » 28 May 2016 03:54

The irony is his is a full blooded 100% Southie family. I would like to maintain his anonymity so won't filter any finer.

My reading is it was a general put down.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Yagnasri » 28 May 2016 04:52

NachiketM wrote:Hey Guys,
Any recent flying activity sighted for any of the SPs or LCA-N ???
This post seems to have dried up ... :-?


I saw it last week at Goa. This is the first time I have seen LCA in action. It was practicing landing and take off - I think it is called as touch down and take off or something like that. Naval version is quite good looking. We need some red hot name for it. :D

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby disha » 28 May 2016 04:56

^Kaluram is not a simple general putdown - a little more than that but not necessarily referring to southies in general., I have seen it used on "dark skinned *anybody* but generally from south" running anything from a powerful position (during Narsimha Rao government).

There might be at most 0.1% or even lesser than that skin-based racist idiots still believing in the gora-skin superiority (nobody can beat a desi on gora-skin superiority complex)., but then they spoil the entire sack just by being one!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby sudeepj » 28 May 2016 05:07

I am a Kalu myself.. I chuckle everytime I hear something like Kalu ram.. It just doesnt have the venom that is attached to terms referring to skin color in the West.

Its not just airplanes we import, we also import western attitudes/psychological issues and even historical baggage. There is no point in going down this route, let it go.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 28 May 2016 05:31

If IAF needs twin engine jets, then they go for their stakes in AMCA.

And, ask GTRE to buck up!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 28 May 2016 05:35

rahulm wrote:ct.

His constant and fiery assassination of the project used to leave me speechless and wondering. He had a special term for the project team - he called them Kalurams. he used to say "There is no way we Kalurams can ever successfully design a front line fighter jet. "We should be realistic" etc along these lines.

:D
Thanks for the anecdote.

If he really used the words "we kalurams" it is indicative of how our education teaches us to hate ourselves and our people. What this officer said is not much worse than the 1999-2000 description of the LCA, again by a pilot who was both senior and known from the Kargil war described teh LCA as "Khadi gramodyog"

Self hatred and contempt was what was put into all Indians and exists to a greater or lesser degree among al of us, reinforced every time the Western media or Pakistanis mock us. Self hate is the Indian version of the British attitude to the black native, started as early as the mid 1800s. Once we take on their attitudes we suddenly pull ourselves away from our own people and look down at them and say "Hey - those people are useless"

Admiring anything foreign is a corollary of this - in fact Macaulay's speech called for the education of Indian to appreciate British/non Indian goods. So even today and even on BRF we find people hesitant to declare that anything Indian could be the best. We cloak ourselves with a supposed British attitude of "neutrality" and say "Hey Arjun is good, but Merkava is better". I have never heard any Briton, American Pakistani or Chinese ever say that their own is in any way less than some foreign entity - but this is the reality for you. Indians behave like connoisseur wine tasters - admiring someone else's produce and we feel very proud of ourselves at our ability to discern foreign good from Indian trash.

And sorry to digress - as Tavleen Singh notes in her books - the attitudes of the secular ruling class towards a more "Indian" leader is an exact clone of the contempt a departing colonialist Briton would have shown towards the ability of a "native Indian" to govern himself. The "make in India" thrust itself is a belief that Indians can do it as opposed to the derision towards the khadi gramodyog of Kaluram.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 28 May 2016 07:58

Re Kaluram issue

Shiv had pointed out in detailed posts that military has to be "trained" to accept and use indigenous products. I think that 300 years of legacy of getting imported weapons and 70 years legacy of bribes & Agusta partakers will take lot of effort before it goes away.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby juvva » 28 May 2016 08:20


shiv
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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 28 May 2016 09:16

I don't want to stay off topic - but it is important for us educated Indians to realize how our own minds and the minds of those whom we admire and respect are all geared towards a blind admiration of certain foreign brand names as infallible and totally reliable. The irony is that some of those brand named have been built up by constant repetition by the entities themselves that they are infallible. After a stage they can tell outright lies and still be considered to be truthful and reliable.

Last night I was at a medical meeting where in an after dinner conversation a senior doctor mispronounced/misquoted the name of a rare disease. Two of us corrected him because I think he believed that we had not heard of that entity. He instantly rebutted our claim and said that the name he mentioned was from the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM for short), "and they don't make such spelling mistakes" he told us. Of course in this age of instant Internet access I was able to show him that he was wrong in 15 seconds using my phone.

This man (a septuagenarian) has taught hundreds of doctors and he holds a kind of awed reverence for that journal - NEJM. There are hundreds of variants of this reverence for foreign entities. British justice is totally neutral. The BBC is always reliable etc. We are taught - from the outset to respect certain institutions - such as Harvard, which will host within its portals assholes like Witzel. I have heard the argument "Of course Harvard deserves its reputation but there will always be bad eggs in any place"

The problem with such an attitude is that if everything cannot be good in the so called best places, everything cannot be bad in the so called worst places - i.e. India. We have an attitude problem and attitude problems get serious and critical if a senior armed forces officer is totally contemptuous of an Indian product and genuinely believes and states all his life that there is nothing better than the imported stuff. I have pointed out before that the pilot who got his wings in 2010 and is now going to fly Su-30s is a youngish man who will have no clue about how much trouble was faced by older now retired pilots, engineers and technicians in absorbing and fighting with the Gnat and the MiG 21. All that is remembered now are the good points of those machines and the high quality they represented.

There is no option for the armed forces other than to cooperate with the Kalurams of Indian industry and see what they can do together. If one isults the other the other will insult him back. That is what has happened in India between the forces and defence industry and foreign suppliers, babus and ministers have laughed all the way to the bank for decades. The time for saying "Give me an F-22 and I will beat the Americans at their game" is over. It's not just about personal pilot competence. it is also about national power and national technical capability.

Our armed forces cannot behave like sepoys employed by the British who fought better than the British and won wars for them using British arms. That happened because the British first won their own wars with their own arms.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 28 May 2016 09:19

LCA guys need to learn to use Fair & Lovely in large doses :((

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 28 May 2016 09:27

Our disrespect of each other is a shame! We blame weaknesses of others while we make jokes that hold Indians in contempt. We must fight this and respect everything and every Indian. Only then will we truly realize the potential of the LCA and Arjun (a tank worthy of its name)!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 28 May 2016 09:34

rahulm wrote:It's a good to be able to finally celebrate the Tejas coming of age with the ACM flying it. It has been a long and torturous journey.......


................ the husband as it turns out was a senior officer in the IAF. An accomplished MiG 21 pilot in-fact. At the time, Lohegaon AFB also had MiG's. During my, by now, regular visits, after tutoring, over a beer or a few, we would sit and chat and he told me a lot lovely stories. I heard about all the jaw dropping, eye popping stuff the IAF officers were doing with he MiG 21 in the western dessert that the Russians had never intended for the fighter and were amazed when they saw it.

He was/is a wonderful, charismatic, down to earth officer, the quintessential gentleman in every way, always calm and composed, Proficient and professional. Can't speak highly enough of him.

However , the one and only topic that got always him agitated was the LCA, the mere mention of which would cause him to launch into derogatory speeches about the project.



I attended my first AE in Feb 2001. In Jan 2001 LCA flew for the first time.
At AE everybody, I mean everrybody was simply ga ga over LCA, except IAF !!!!!!

At our BR Meet in Bangalore we had a few IAF guys, courtesy Shiv. Some of them looked positively sad at the prospect IAF flying the Tejas. Finally I asked one of these guys 'what do you think is the issue with LCA' Pat came the reply 'It is not stealthy'. I persisted an asked 'which combat aircraft, in service today (2001) is stealthy ?" The gentleman could not give a reply.

Many times I think that IA (and IAF to some extent) are totally brainwashed, by their bosses or the brochures or Natasha... , that only Russian equipment is THE best. Today IAF wants only fancy toys from the West.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 28 May 2016 09:35

Vivek K wrote: We must fight this and respect everything and every Indian.

My Macaulayite upbringing ensures that I make every effort to watch foreign TV programs like "Pawn Stars". What really fascinates me about the pawnshop owners is that they invariably value old American made items higher. A sword that was made in America rates higher than one made in Europe. They have blind pride in their own. The British will always claim that no one can touch their SAS and that Americans win battles where the SAS has taught them how to fight. We may laugh and mock but catch one Paki who claims that his Anza, Al-Squalid or Budarr is less than the best.

Indians are unique in self hate and self contempt. We are ashamed of our color, our faith, our culinary habits - everything. We are always the first to point out how we were subjugated for 1000 years although the figure is wrong. People post that here on BRF and no one questions them. This is a serious national disease that I have seen being noted (on Twitter) by many non Indians. We need to get out of it.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Kersi D » 28 May 2016 09:42

shiv wrote:I don't want to stay off topic - but it is important for us educated Indians to realize how our own minds and the minds of those whom we admire and respect are all geared towards a blind admiration of certain foreign brand names as infallible and totally reliable. The irony is that some of those brand named have been built up by constant repetition by the entities themselves that they are infallible. After a stage they can tell outright lies and still be considered to be truthful and reliable.

Last night I was at a medical meeting where in an after dinner conversation a senior doctor mispronounced/misquoted the name of a rare disease. Two of us corrected him because I think he believed that we had not heard of that entity. He instantly rebutted our claim and said that the name he mentioned was from the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM for short), "and they don't make such spelling mistakes" he told us. Of course in this age of instant Internet access I was able to show him that he was wrong in 15 seconds using my phone.

This man (a septuagenarian) has taught hundreds of doctors and he holds a kind of awed reverence for that journal - NEJM. There are hundreds of variants of this reverence for foreign entities. British justice is totally neutral. The BBC is always reliable etc. We are taught - from the outset to respect certain institutions - such as Harvard, which will host within its portals assholes like Witzel. I have heard the argument "Of course Harvard deserves its reputation but there will always be bad eggs in any place"

The problem with such an attitude is that if everything cannot be good in the so called best places, everything cannot be bad in the so called worst places - i.e. India. We have an attitude problem and attitude problems get serious and critical if a senior armed forces officer is totally contemptuous of an Indian product and genuinely believes and states all his life that there is nothing better than the imported stuff. I have pointed out before that the pilot who got his wings in 2010 and is now going to fly Su-30s is a youngish man who will have no clue about how much trouble was faced by older now retired pilots, engineers and technicians in absorbing and fighting with the Gnat and the MiG 21. All that is remembered now are the good points of those machines and the high quality they represented.

There is no option for the armed forces other than to cooperate with the Kalurams of Indian industry and see what they can do together. If one isults the other the other will insult him back. That is what has happened in India between the forces and defence industry and foreign suppliers, babus and ministers have laughed all the way to the bank for decades. The time for saying "Give me an F-22 and I will beat the Americans at their game" is over. It's not just about personal pilot competence. it is also about national power and national technical capability.

Our armed forces cannot behave like sepoys employed by the British who fought better than the British and won wars for them using British arms. That happened because the British first won their own wars with their own arms.


Sorry to be OT but why blame the armed force alone ?

Almost every Tarun, Dinesh and Hariharan thinks a goras is "superior" to us in every way.
Everything that the gora does is correct and perfect
Everything that the gora makes is infallible and superlatives

Even the goras, especilally Americans think of themselves as superior to other colours. Vietnam was a wake-up call.

But today the situation is changing, albeit slowly but steadily. As it is first Japan and Korea and Taiwan, today China has proved it can make good stuff at good prices.

And Tomorrow belongs to India. Inshallah !!!!

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby ArmenT » 28 May 2016 10:23

shiv wrote:The problem with such an attitude is that if everything cannot be good in the so called best places, everything cannot be bad in the so called worst places - i.e. India. We have an attitude problem and attitude problems get serious and critical if a senior armed forces officer is totally contemptuous of an Indian product and genuinely believes and states all his life that there is nothing better than the imported stuff. I have pointed out before that the pilot who got his wings in 2010 and is now going to fly Su-30s is a youngish man who will have no clue about how much trouble was faced by older now retired pilots, engineers and technicians in absorbing and fighting with the Gnat and the MiG 21. All that is remembered now are the good points of those machines and the high quality they represented.

There is no option for the armed forces other than to cooperate with the Kalurams of Indian industry and see what they can do together. If one isults the other the other will insult him back. That is what has happened in India between the forces and defence industry and foreign suppliers, babus and ministers have laughed all the way to the bank for decades. The time for saying "Give me an F-22 and I will beat the Americans at their game" is over. It's not just about personal pilot competence. it is also about national power and national technical capability.

Our armed forces cannot behave like sepoys employed by the British who fought better than the British and won wars for them using British arms. That happened because the British first won their own wars with their own arms.

Well, I might be committing hara-kiri on this august forum, but here goes.... About 25 years ago, I would have been in full agreement with the IAF officer, reason being, I was well acquainted with some of the people working in HAL at that time, and to be honest, I have no idea how they got hired for their positions, other than they got hired to fill a quota (it is an ugly word, but you know what I mean). Some were relatives, some were colleagues of relatives, one of them even taught me a class for a while before leaving for there (for the record, his reply for how to manufacture anything from a car door to a screw bolt was "capstan-and-turret-lathe", followed by "jigs-and-fixtures").

I'm glad that the current HAL has proved that in spite of all that, they still built a world-class fighter jet. That is a massive achievement and it is laudable that they managed to change many people's minds of exactly what they're capable of. People might have (rightly or wrongly) talked $hit about HAL in the past, but the LCA is here now and that is what matters. Like that ad says, "Dikhave pe mat jao... apni akal lagao!"

<offtopic>As an aside, some of the chest thumping going on here makes me laugh. Jingos will spend time loudly questioning the motives of a person who stepped up to the line and served, but can't be bothered to spend even one minute of their time to provide translations for an article, even when 98% of the work is already done and the sections to translate are clearly marked and no more than a couple of phrases each. Mind you, this is the fifth time that the request is being made.
</offtopic>

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 28 May 2016 18:23

ArmenT wrote:...
<offtopic>As an aside, some of the chest thumping going on here makes me laugh. Jingos will spend time loudly questioning the motives of a person who stepped up to the line and served, but can't be bothered to spend even one minute of their time to provide translations for an article, even when 98% of the work is already done and the sections to translate are clearly marked and no more than a couple of phrases each. Mind you, this is the fifth time that the request is being made.
</offtopic>


You have a PM for the OT above.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Suresh S » 28 May 2016 19:13

Kersi D wrote:
shiv wrote:I don't want to stay off topic - but it is important for us educated Indians to realize how our own minds and the minds of those whom we admire and respect are all geared towards a blind admiration of certain foreign brand names as infallible and totally reliable. The irony is that some of those brand named have been built up by constant repetition by the entities themselves that they are infallible. After a stage they can tell outright lies and still be considered to be truthful and reliable.

Last night I was at a medical meeting where in an after dinner conversation a senior doctor mispronounced/misquoted the name of a rare disease. Two of us corrected him because I think he believed that we had not heard of that entity. He instantly rebutted our claim and said that the name he mentioned was from the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM for short), "and they don't make such spelling mistakes" he told us. Of course in this age of instant Internet access I was able to show him that he was wrong in 15 seconds using my phone.

This man (a septuagenarian) has taught hundreds of doctors and he holds a kind of awed reverence for that journal - NEJM. There are hundreds of variants of this reverence for foreign entities. British justice is totally neutral. The BBC is always reliable etc. We are taught - from the outset to respect certain institutions - such as Harvard, which will host within its portals assholes like Witzel. I have heard the argument "Of course Harvard deserves its reputation but there will always be bad eggs in any place"

The problem with such an attitude is that if everything cannot be good in the so called best places, everything cannot be bad in the so called worst places - i.e. India. We have an attitude problem and attitude problems get serious and critical if a senior armed forces officer is totally contemptuous of an Indian product and genuinely believes and states all his life that there is nothing better than the imported stuff. I have pointed out before that the pilot who got his wings in 2010 and is now going to fly Su-30s is a youngish man who will have no clue about how much trouble was faced by older now retired pilots, engineers and technicians in absorbing and fighting with the Gnat and the MiG 21. All that is remembered now are the good points of those machines and the high quality they represented.

There is no option for the armed forces other than to cooperate with the Kalurams of Indian industry and see what they can do together. If one isults the other the other will insult him back. That is what has happened in India between the forces and defence industry and foreign suppliers, babus and ministers have laughed all the way to the bank for decades. The time for saying "Give me an F-22 and I will beat the Americans at their game" is over. It's not just about personal pilot competence. it is also about national power and national technical capability.

Our armed forces cannot behave like sepoys employed by the British who fought better than the British and won wars for them using British arms. That happened because the British first won their own wars with their own arms.


Sorry to be OT but why blame the armed force alone ?

Almost every Tarun, Dinesh and Hariharan thinks a goras is "superior" to us in every way.
Everything that the gora does is correct and perfect
Everything that the gora makes is infallible and superlatives

Even the goras, especilally Americans think of themselves as superior to other colours. Vietnam was a wake-up call.

But today the situation is changing, albeit slowly but steadily. As it is first Japan and Korea and Taiwan, today China has proved it can make good stuff at good prices.

And Tomorrow belongs to India. Inshallah !!!!



First I agree with shiv. I wanted to reply to this kaluram comment yesterday but unfortunately had to run to work and shiv beat me to it. These things are so painful and emotional to me personally and to any thinking person.
First u can call me jingo or whatever sir i am a proud kalu hindu and I wear it on my sleeve everyday.Born in a small town in Rajasthan, my home sharing same boundary with a Hanuman temple and a Ram temple 50 feet from house. Having read Mahabharta more than 10 times by the age of 11, I was born with Hindu culture in my blood.This is a open forum and I do not know how much I can share my personal experiences here but I am going to share one with all of u.

Shiv u will understand. Year 1994 St george,s university hospital, London.A kalu patient comes to Emergency room (or casualty shiv). My own assessment later, likely tamil tiger from srilanka.A young man in his 20,s accompanied by 2 of his other kalu friends. Young man very muscular. History fall down 2 flight of stairs and bruises and pain all over the body. I normally do not order too many xrays(usually go with clinical sense shiv ) but due to language barrier and , size of patient and bruises I did, it was clinically justified. 5 minutes later I get a call from radiology tech a blue blooded gora that all xrays are unnecessary and he is not going to do them. Mind u if I had sent a english pt no questions will be asked.I was rude to him because he was rude to me. I screamed at him that u write on the requisition slip that u are not going to do the test and I will immediately call your supervisor even though it is a weekend. Few minutes later all xrays are done .From next day a very friendly ER turns malignant towards this doctor. reason pretty obvious. I also happen to note next day as I walk to the cafeteria that radiology tech was talking to the senior registrar in a corner of the radiolgy dept ,english bitch of a woman( she basically ran the dept).Over the next few weeks she tries to trip me clinically on cases with no success. A month or two later I resigned from the job and left for NY.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 28 May 2016 20:15

snahata wrote:A month or two later I resigned from the job and left for NY.

Sensible. OT again but people kept asking why I left the UK for India and here is what I say
One day in the UK I saw a bright light in the sky that scared me so much that I fainted and had a nervous breakdown. After I recovered people told me that the bright light was the sun. How would I know? I had not seen it for years in the UK :D

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby KrishnaK » 28 May 2016 21:29

people seem to forget what time before the 90s were like. Our socialist economic policies directly resulted the quality of our manufactured goods being very poor. who here living in india in the 80s doesn't remember the sari wala carrying his precious cargo of imported chiffon ? Can you blame that IAF officer who was raised thinking we can't make a decent sari, if he found it difficult to believe we could make a fighter ? and the point is we didn't. this isn't particularly different from the hankering for western luxury goods and the status of superiority they endowed its manufacturers behind the iron curtain. hell the soviet union built villages to show to the rest of the world how advanced their form of political/economic organization was. was that the result of a maccaulay as well ? indians of all colours, with their desi accents still intact have made it big everywhere in the world in all sorts of fields. the problem, if any, exists solely with those who need to start ranting about maccaulay from two centuries ago to explain what probably has a fairly benign explanation.

since capital controls were relaxed and indian manufacturers we allowed to import technology a bajaj and hero have been able to compete against suzukis and hondas. incidentally the japanese were seen as low quality manufacturers to begin with and now define quality standards. maccaualy has nothing to do with not making products the world aspires to own. that is the problem that needs to be solved.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 May 2016 21:46

Superb post.

Basically, the last line sums it up.

"Gung ho is an anglicised pronunciation of "gōng hé" (工合), which is also sometimes anglicised as "kung ho". "Gōng hé" is a shortened version of the term "gōngyè hézuòshè" (工業合作社) or Chinese Industrial Cooperatives, which was abbreviated as INDUSCO in English.The two Chinese characters "gōng" and "hé" are translatable individually as "work" and "together"."

May more CAS Raha's fly Tejas and MCAs & may more Tejas/MCAs get inducted en masse.
And may more Shankar Roychowdhury's emerge to support local programs.

And one day, may it just be a regular ho-hum event when the CAS flies a local fighter and says "Ok, make them fast, good". :)


shiv wrote:I don't want to stay off topic - but it is important for us educated Indians to realize how our own minds and the minds of those whom we admire and respect are all geared towards a blind admiration of certain foreign brand names as infallible and totally reliable. The irony is that some of those brand named have been built up by constant repetition by the entities themselves that they are infallible. After a stage they can tell outright lies and still be considered to be truthful and reliable.

Last night I was at a medical meeting where in an after dinner conversation a senior doctor mispronounced/misquoted the name of a rare disease. Two of us corrected him because I think he believed that we had not heard of that entity. He instantly rebutted our claim and said that the name he mentioned was from the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM for short), "and they don't make such spelling mistakes" he told us. Of course in this age of instant Internet access I was able to show him that he was wrong in 15 seconds using my phone.

This man (a septuagenarian) has taught hundreds of doctors and he holds a kind of awed reverence for that journal - NEJM. There are hundreds of variants of this reverence for foreign entities. British justice is totally neutral. The BBC is always reliable etc. We are taught - from the outset to respect certain institutions - such as Harvard, which will host within its portals assholes like Witzel. I have heard the argument "Of course Harvard deserves its reputation but there will always be bad eggs in any place"

The problem with such an attitude is that if everything cannot be good in the so called best places, everything cannot be bad in the so called worst places - i.e. India. We have an attitude problem and attitude problems get serious and critical if a senior armed forces officer is totally contemptuous of an Indian product and genuinely believes and states all his life that there is nothing better than the imported stuff. I have pointed out before that the pilot who got his wings in 2010 and is now going to fly Su-30s is a youngish man who will have no clue about how much trouble was faced by older now retired pilots, engineers and technicians in absorbing and fighting with the Gnat and the MiG 21. All that is remembered now are the good points of those machines and the high quality they represented.

There is no option for the armed forces other than to cooperate with the Kalurams of Indian industry and see what they can do together.
If one isults the other the other will insult him back. That is what has happened in India between the forces and defence industry and foreign suppliers, babus and ministers have laughed all the way to the bank for decades. The time for saying "Give me an F-22 and I will beat the Americans at their game" is over. It's not just about personal pilot competence. it is also about national power and national technical capability.

Our armed forces cannot behave like sepoys employed by the British who fought better than the British and won wars for them using British arms. That happened because the British first won their own wars with their own arms.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 May 2016 22:12

If LCA is chosen, Many arms dalals are going to be cheesed off in lootyen

http://dailykashmirimages.com/Details/1 ... ey-fighter
Tejas to replace MiG as key fighter
Published on May 29, 2016

NEW DELHI, May 28: Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas would be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force and would likely replace the entire MIG-21 fleet of almost 250 fighters.

The Minister’s statement is significant given the recent noises emanating from the Ministry, hinting at the possibility of another single-engine fighter being considered to make up for the shortfall of fighters. In the past, the IAF had been reluctant to fully back the domestic Tejas programme.

“LCA is mainstay. There will be seven squadrons of it. It is 3-4 times better than MiG-21s,” he told The Hindu on Thursday giving an overview of the IAF modernisation plans.

About 250 MiG-21s were in service, most of which would be phased out in the next 10-15 years, Mr. Parrikar said, adding that they would be “replaced by the LCA and another single-engine fighter.”

Asked if another single-engine fighter was under consideration, he declined to confirm.

“We may consider. I have not said we are looking. Tomorrow we may decide to have everything from Tejas. The second version of Tejas, which is an improved version, is coming into production after the first two squadrons,” he said.

Mirage and Jaguar upgrade programmes were currently under way which, Parrikar said, would add 10-30 years to their life.

“In five to six years, we should start getting new double-engine fighters, not Rafales only,” he stated. :eek:

The improved version of LCA referred to as Mk-1A with four major improvements over the Mk-1 variant has been offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) as an interim measure in view of the delay in LCA-MK2.

Parrikar said the third squadron with 1A would be a highly improved version, which was under trials. “Those special additives are under trial like firing a Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile etc,” he said.

However, the LCA being a single-engine, light-weight fighter, it has its limitations, which is why another twin-engine fighter would be needed other than the Rafale, Parrikar stated.

“Functionally, the LCA is better than many other foreign fighters. It reacts very smoothly, fly-by-wire, its turn radius is very good, manoeuvrability is very good but it has limitation in the sense that it is a light combatant… It cannot go into deep penetration… It is mostly good for dogfights in your own sky or to degrade the opponent Army’s command posts,” Parrikar observed and added that “we need more twin-engine fighters for deep penetration.”

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 28 May 2016 22:23

Using indigenous weapons or systems is not only Social issue but also a Technical & Economic Issue. For instance:-

Can we use Arjun instead of T-90s?

Can we use combination of Prahaar and 105mm LFG instead of M777 ?

Should be order import of USD 10 Billion worth of IIR guided ATGMs or use radio controlled/laser guided ATGMs?

What would cost of Dhanush spares vs Imported Howitzers spares in wartime?

Politicians have always and always sold away our potential bit by bit to favor imports. Look at Telecom industry. Problem that is there, is that there is practically zero push for indigenisation in indian media. Even Pvt Sector wants mainly to take over screwdrivergiri from DPSUs.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 28 May 2016 22:44

Correct. But in the absence of integrated leadership from MOD and IDS, such decisions will not be taken. Lets hope things change.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby vishvak » 28 May 2016 23:28

was raised thinking we can't make a decent sari

I have heard myself that there were mills in Bombay that spun cotton as good as silk. Then, for some reason, were closed down. Fact is, we do not continue to build upon something that is achieved after a lot of efforts. There was a video wherein NSA Ajit Doval said that after independence, when India was hub of weapons manufacture of the British empire, several weapons manufacturing plants/factories were closed. There could be many such examples.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 29 May 2016 00:06

Karan M wrote:If LCA is chosen, Many arms dalals are going to be cheesed off in lootyen

“Functionally, the LCA is better than many other foreign fighters. It reacts very smoothly, fly-by-wire, its turn radius is very good, manoeuvrability is very good but it has limitation in the sense that it is a light combatant… It cannot go into deep penetration… It is mostly good for dogfights in your own sky or to degrade the opponent Army’s command posts,” Parrikar observed and added that “we need more twin-engine fighters for deep penetration.”


+1

Not sure why Parrikar is focusing on the number of engines. A single engined fighter in higher thrust class and more fuel payload capacity will do just fine aka F-35. If we do need another middle category, I think we should think more about payload/range with the best sensors we can afford rather than number of engines.

Image

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 29 May 2016 05:14

KrishnaK wrote: maccaualy has nothing to do with not making products the world aspires to own. that is the problem that needs to be solved.

I don't believe that you understand what Macaulay has to do with all this. He was instrumental in changing the system of Indian education to make Indians appreciate British goods so that finished products could be exported to India. This has everything to do with Indian attitudes towards imported goods. The contempt for "khadi gramodyog" is the flip side of the admiration for imported chiffon.

Ironically, (and I am amazed that people cannot see the parallel) - Gandhi's promotion of Khadi and the Dandi march were a pre independence version of Mod's "make in India" - in order to reduce dependence on foreign industry. What the import lobby does is exactly what the British did - that is to close down Indian industry (mills and steel making in the case of Brits) and export finished goods to India. The more things change the more they remain the same.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 29 May 2016 05:43

vishvak wrote:
was raised thinking we can't make a decent sari

I have heard myself that there were mills in Bombay that spun cotton as good as silk. Then, for some reason, were closed down.


If you are referring to the pre Independence era, a few insights on this issue are available from Gurcharan Das's "India Unbound" where he speaks of the ways in which the British put a squeeze on Indian mills and mill owners.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 29 May 2016 05:56

Cybaru wrote:
Not sure why Parrikar is focusing on the number of engines.


It is about survivability after combat damage while flying long distances over enemy territory. Of course there is the usual counter argument "Oh but the US is happy with the F-35, so we should understand that if the US does it we would be stupid not to agree 100% with that".

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby srai » 29 May 2016 06:09

...
About 250 MiG-21s were in service, most of which would be phased out in the next 10-15 years, Mr. Parrikar said, adding that they would be “replaced by the LCA and another single-engine fighter.”

...
“In five to six years, we should start getting new double-engine fighters, not Rafales only,” he stated.
...


DM left things pretty open. Given preference for indigenous design & build, another "single-engine fighter" would most likely mean LCA Mk.2 or Mk.1A+. That would be 100-120 units and would follow on after production run of 120-140 LCA Mk.1/A post 2025. But people who would prefer import option could interpret it as Gripen or F-16 etc. Total planned for this "single-engine" category is 250 units, inclusive of 120-140 LCA Mk.1/A on order.

As far as "double-engine fighter" goes, it could be 60-80 more Su-30MKI and/or FGFA. Both are twin-engined. Again, here too people with certain preferences could interpret it as more Rafales (cost is an issue) or other MRCA contenders like F/A-18 E/F. It could also end up being "single-engine fighter" like JSF that offers "deep penetration" as desired. Total planned for this "twin-engine" category is 126 units, inclusive of 36 Rafales.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rahulm » 29 May 2016 06:47

Duplicate deleted.
Last edited by rahulm on 29 May 2016 06:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby rahulm » 29 May 2016 06:48

Manohar Parrikar: Have broken middlemen-Defence Ministry nexus

Parrikar also questioned why the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas took 32 years.

“The test flight of the aircraft took place in Vajpayee’s tenure in 2001. After that, during 10 years of UPA government, how many meetings did defence minister conduct to ensure that LCA goes into production and is inducted into Air Force? I did it.

I did about 18 meetings on this issue. I pushed them both together. Asked Aeronautical Development Agency and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to do what is required and asked IAF not be unreasonble ” he said.


Macaulayism has seeped in to the extent most don't even realise what they have become. It's the norm.

I was once refused service in Taj Banjara, Hyderabad because I wore a dhoti. I called for the manager and did get an apology and service. I ordered Biryani and ate it with my fingers. Take that you stuffed elitists!

Many die hard Indics, will eat with their fingers at home but will use cutlery in a restaurant out of shame. Why?

There is a kitchen manual that every new lady married to an officer gets (or least used to get) in the Fauj. It details all the procedures, sequencing of food, cutlery layout and usage and I think even some starter recipes. Guess what, it reads like a manual for a British household. I should have one lying around in one of my wooden "KHODAY XXX CSD ONLY" (some of you will know what I am talking about) boxes. The "XXX" part of the boxes has long gone the way all spirit does. If I find the book, I will scan and put it up online.

One day, my dad came back from an official dinner night (terrible affairs these, the ones with band playing were the worst - the formality was suffocating and the food used to be inedible. I have been to a few) at the NDA cadets MESS and lamented that the new crop of cadets use their fingers to eat food. I told him, we should celebrate because the "rank and file" of society are also now joining the Officer cadre.

I speak to all AI, Indigo, JET, goAir etc cabin crew in Hindi, guess what, they invariably reply in English but will talk in Hindi amongst themselves. Sales people in Tanishq are no different.

The only exception I have seen is in Gujarat. Gujarati rules even in the fancy malls on RC Dutt Road and around Race Course Circle.

Macaulay did what was best for his masters, the Brit Empire. What's stopping us from creating a counter strategy? Even today, many talented people in the country can't participate or are not used to their full potential because they don't know English. I saw numerous examples during my 11 month stay in UP. An eye opener.

This is all getting OT so I'll stop.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 29 May 2016 07:16

srai wrote:
...
About 250 MiG-21s were in service, most of which would be phased out in the next 10-15 years, Mr. Parrikar said, adding that they would be “replaced by the LCA and another single-engine fighter.”

...
“In five to six years, we should start getting new double-engine fighters, not Rafales only,” he stated.
...


DM left things pretty open. Given preference for indigenous design & build, another "single-engine fighter" would most likely mean LCA Mk.2 or Mk.1A+. That would be 100-120 units and would follow on after production run of 120-140 LCA Mk.1/A post 2025. But people who would prefer import option could interpret it as Gripen or F-16 etc. Total planned for this "single-engine" category is 250 units, inclusive of 120-140 LCA Mk.1/A on order.

As far as "double-engine fighter" goes, it could be 60-80 more Su-30MKI and/or FGFA. Both are twin-engined. Again, here too people with certain preferences could interpret it as more Rafales (cost is an issue) or other MRCA contenders like F/A-18 E/F. It could also end up being "single-engine fighter" like JSF that offers "deep penetration" as desired. Total planned for this "twin-engine" category is 126 units, inclusive of 36 Rafales.


Well that will be awesome if they do order a run of 120 Mk-2s.

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2016 08:09

^+1

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 29 May 2016 11:10

Revisiting ACM Arup Raha's flight on Tejas.

The video is heart warming and does not let up on the praise of "Tejas" with analysis (which is not for BRF) too. At 3:40 "Jab yeh, 30 mins tak aasman ka toh lekar jab yeh ladaaku parmveer dharti pe utra, toh na sirf uske chief ka seena garv se chaura ho gaya balki ispar bharosa bhi do guna ho gaya.


Make In India TEJAS operation Ajatshatru

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz3Fmp0-iuM


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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 29 May 2016 11:53

^wah bhai wah, aise aur do char show ki sakt jaroorat....time for other channels to pick up the cue..this will go a long way in reducing the mcaulayism being spoken of

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 29 May 2016 16:21

I am at Delhi Airport T3 Terminal where I found an IAF lounge next to the ticketing counters. Its for IAF personnel only. It has two large models displayed, one Su-30MKI and one Tejas. Note that its an IAF lounge and not DRDO or HAL or MoD.

The noticeable thing about the model is that it depicts the combat load of Tejas. The hardpoints, left to right, are one R-73E, one Derby, one EFT, empty centerline, one Litening on inlet, another EFT, one 450 kg LGB and finally another R-73E

Those travelling via Delhi T3 should visit the lounge

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Re: LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Postby fanne » 29 May 2016 16:23

Fotu?


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