India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

[vishvak]

Finally, I do not think LSA, although a foundational agreement, has anything to do with purchasing US equipment.

Repairs, maintenance, calibration services - all of these would prolly need logistics from US M.I.C.

[arshyam]

This was the same argument I heard in the 1950s about non-alignment and then came 1962:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... china-war/

Does anyone really think we are better matched today against the PRC?

Count me in. If we had allied with the US back then, we would not have a nuclear weapons programme, a space programme, etc. We would have become like Japan, this elderly and likeable neighbourhood uncle who jumps at the sound of a barking street dog. Oh, and as the good allies, we would have cheerily signed the NPT, CTBT, and MTCR and any other 'T's the western nations may have thrown our way, so as to have the crumbs of a civil nuclear energy program and a military stayed in the main through American imports. Agni, Brahmos, Tejas, Arihant, IRNSS? No siree! At best, we would have a tenuous nuke umbrella provided by the US, leaving us to shiver in our dhoties whether that umbrella would actually work in front of Chinese belligerence, which in turn, would be tightly coupled with the US economy. So we would stay uncertain about own security. Again, like Japan today. (I know counter-factuals can be written anyway, but I couldn't resist)

The point is, with our independent stance, we today have a credible missile programme, backed by a nuclear weapons programme, a triad with a second strike capability, all developed by ourselves (IP belongs to us only). Matched by a continental navigation system in case we need to go far off shore and deal with China. China knows that, and won't poke us too much, and we likewise. We don't need to worry if the Amirkhans will step up and help us in the event of a future Chinese aggression, since we are confident of having our gear to defend ourselves.

Do we have enough of it? Of course not. But that's mostly a factor of a small defence budget and lack of urgency. It's mostly our doing. But that is no reason to say that allying with the Americans will help us when simply believing in ourselves and investing more of our monies into production itself will go a long way.

So, answer your question vis-avis 1962, yes, we are better matched with the Chinese. We just don't seem to realize it.

[Viv S]

Count me in. If we had allied with the US back then, we would not have a nuclear weapons programme, a space programme, etc. We would have become like Japan, this elderly and likeable neighbourhood uncle who jumps at the sound of a barking street dog.

We shouldn't ally with them, but we still ought to strive for enough interoperability to get China worrying about the possibility of an alliance, splitting its military resources accordingly (and avoiding antagonizing India beyond a point). Much like India has to do vis a vis China and Pakistan.

That said, speaking hypothetically, why exactly do you think we would have resembled Japan as an ally? Why not France?

[Lilo]

I agree ,Massa is the bestest sugardaddy any heathen country can ever have , learn how SoKo and Filipinos bent over to let the holy spirit enter them from the behind.Now they are in bliss of happiness and development.Why can't us dutty yindoos be as English speaking and as submissive as filipina maids hain ji?

The dutty heathens protesting here against the "strategic partnership" should get lost (or better just die) and let massa be our Shepherd who will guide us to the one true god.
There is no reincarnation,there is no avatar , one should enjoy this life to the fullest (Zindagi na milegi dobara as per bollywoodized MUTUs here and abroad).India should jump and grab the plate by its two hands and accept the superpowa status being offered on a platter by the bestest sugardaddy massa with a grateful lords prayer on the lips. When bent over and consuming the feast the proper manner is to offer the behind for the holy spirit to enter.

What explains India getting such a public lashing from US lawmakers on the eve of Modi's visit?
by Seema Sirohi

Days ahead of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s fourth visit to the United States, its senators painted a dismal picture of India as a land of 12 million “slaves”, human rights abuses, gender violence and a country where civil society is under constant attack.

They said India was deliberately targeting Christian organisations and their “researchers” by harassing them, denying them visas and revoking their licenses. Religious intolerance and sectarian tensions in the country are increasing.

In equally harsh terms they dismissed Modi government’s economic reforms as inadequate and not truly “free market”. They complained about red tape, high tariffs, lack of market access for American companies, and inadequate protection for intellectual property.

Even India’s membership in the Nuclear Suppliers Group came in for criticism as Senator Ed Markey claimed an exemption for India would further “infuriate” Pakistan into making more nuclear weapons. There were also probing questions on India getting too close to Iran since Modi was just in Tehran.

Timed for maximum impact

It was not the kind of build-up New Delhi had anticipated for Modi’s visit but American lawmakers seemed determined to deliver a hard blow. Senator after senator rained down on Modi’s record just as the prime minister was marking his two years in government.

The questions were directed at Nisha Biswal, assistant secretary of state for South and Central Asia, who was testifying at a hearing of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Indo-US relations. Biswal defended the relationship and tried to push back but it seemed the senators were determined to embarrass both the State Department and the Indian government.

Not for the last 15 years has India taken such a bashing on Capitol Hill, the home of the US Congress. It was reminiscent of the early 90s when the US Congress regularly attacked India for alleged human rights abuses in Jammu and Kashmir, largely at the behest of Pakistan’s lobbying.

To say the negative tone and content of the hearing were a surprise would be an understatement given the largely positive narrative of Indo-US relations. Officially, the two countries have a mature, strategic and full relationship covering just about every aspect of human endeavour.

But clearly not all is well. The Senate Foreign Relations Committee and its powerful Republican chairman, Bob Corker, sent a very public message: India’s domestic climate stinks with all the reported incidents against women, Dalits, Christians and Muslims.

The hearing was timed for maximum impact – exactly two weeks before Modi’s arrival in the American capital and on Capitol Hill.

Bubbling anger

According to a Congressional source, anger has been bubbling over the past year as reports kept surfacing about incidents of communal tension, lynchings, hangings and sedition charges being filed against students in India.

“Is this 2016 and a democracy with which we share values? Ford Foundation is in trouble. Greenpeace has been kicked out,” the Congressional aide continued. “If the State Department wants to hide things, it doesn’t mean the Congress will too,” he said, adding that pressure had come from constituents and the human rights community to raise questions on India’s record.

New Delhi’s recent decision to deny visas to members of the US Commission on International Religious Freedom, a quasi government body, to visit India also shaped senators’ thinking. It bolsters the feeling that the Indian government is uncooperative on a range of human rights issues, the aide said.

New Delhi doesn’t help even in “child abduction” cases. These cases mostly affect Indian American couples where a spouse flies off to India with the child and disappears to escape American courts and custody battles.

Biswal, the State Department’s representative, told the senators the Obama Administration raises these concerns privately with the Modi government but the challenges in India are huge. She added that Indian civil society was fighting back with a vociferous campaign against all forms of intolerance and intimidation.

That didn’t satisfy Chairman Corker, who is reportedly upset with India over the non-consummation, so far, of the Indo-US Civil Nuclear deal in the shape of a contract for an American reactor. If the business was good, some of the anger would subside.

Corker opened the hearing with a statement, which while noting the “overall trajectory” of relations as “positive,” stressed that “hopeful rhetoric” had “far exceeded actual tangible achievements.” He called for a “sober and pragmatic” approach, implying the Obama Administration’s approach was anything but.

‘Largest number of slaves’

“India also has the largest number of slaves. I am talking of people working for a dollar a day,” he said. “How does a country like this have 12 to 14 million slaves in the year 2016? How does that happen?” Corker pointedly asked. “I mean, seriously, do they have just zero prosecution abilities, zero law enforcement? I mean, how could this happen? It’s on that scale, it’s pretty incredible.”

The use of an emotionally loaded word like “slave” for various groups of oppressed people – from bonded and child labour to trafficked men and women, migrant workers under debt and child soldiers – is a relatively recent phenomenon. Western human rights activists have used the term “slaves” to shock and awe countries where these practices are prevalent and to gain attention in western capitals.

The term is a special hallmark of the Walk Free Foundation, an organisation started by Australian billionaire Andrew Forrest. The foundation publishes a “global slavery index” from which Senator Corker pulled the figure of 12 to 14 million slaves in India, according to an aide in his office.

He wasn’t the only one to raise difficult issues. Senator Ben Cardin, the ranking Democrat on the committee, said religious freedom, women and minority rights and press freedom were all under attack.

Senator Cory Gardner specifically asked about Compassion International, a Christian missionary organisation, which has been reportedly been targeted by the Indian government. Its assets have been seized after income tax raids and 12 separate visa applications have been denied, he said. “There seems to be a real crackdown on religious NGOs by the Indian government in the last year,” Gardner said.

Compassion International “sponsors” Indian children for education and its website clearly says it’s saving souls in the “name of Jesus.” It has been working in India since the 1960s.

Indian diplomats were unavailable for comment but they have been expecting this thunderstorm ever since reports about communal tensions, anti-Dalit incidents, ghar wapsi or reconversion drives to Hinduism, suicides and hangings began surfacing with alarming frequency. The problem is they can’t talk themselves out of this mess.

Butto put this public airing in context – the senators are, no doubt, responding to domestic pressures from the vast human rights community in the US. Some of them, like Corker, are also genuinely involved in efforts to highlight and end what they call “slavery.”

Modi’s past, while mostly set aside for political reasons, is not entirely forgotten by those who have a stake in shining the light on human rights issues. And since he hasn’t taken a clear, strong stand against the wild and communal elements in his larger family known as the Sangh parivar, American politicians have found an easy handle.

If Modi has political reasons for not curbing the rabid elements of the parivar, US lawmakers have their reasons for embarrassing him and his government

[Arjun]

Serious moron, this sepoy sirohi. Writes for India's leading newspaper and can't even stand up for it and differentiate between what is legitimate and what is transparently motivated criticism of her home country.

[Lilo]

I think not she is a longtime watcher and in this particular piece brings out the contradictions of massa congress well (but only on the sly).Also gives pointers on the focus area's ex: the emerging discourse on slavery and the specific sources in massa pushing it.

[Arjun]

Last 4 paras clearly communicate that she sees some legitimacy in the US Congress' bullshit...seriously, these days when even "news agencies" like Reuters and AP are outright shilling for their home countries - this idiotic Indian newspaper can't even take a clear stand.

[SSridhar]

As I see it, the issue is not about Seema Sirohi who is just a messanger who possibly leans towards the message she is conveying. This is about the American lawmakers and their hypocrisy. Targetting Ms. Sirohi distracts from the real target.

We don't need to have a knee jerk reaction for the above. They are trying their usual tricks. But, coolly, Modi can decide not to address a Congress (or whatever they call the Parliament in the US) if it was so loaded with such negativism. And, while at it, India could also convey to the US government that a large section of Indians are against the LISMOA and therefore choose to delay, even if it does not decide wisely to scrap it altogether, the signing citing the need for more positive opinion-making. Americans love tough talking leaders. But, does this government have it in it to do so?

[SSundar]

I would not be surprised if Troll.in added those last paras to keep the Omidyar Network happy. Seema Sirohi used to be one of the good ones back in the days. This article does name the loonybins who are making noise and slyly points out some nonsense like that "NGO" that saves children in the name of Jesus. But, no doubt the overall tone is anti-Modi.

[chetak]

I think not she is a longtime watcher and in this particular piece brings out the contradictions of massa congress well (but only on the sly).Also gives pointers on the focus area's ex: the emerging discourse on slavery and the specific sources in massa pushing it.

the target is the FCRA and the Modi govt's tough measures to make it increasingly difficult for NGOs, not only to operate but also to start up.

the bible belt is getting restive.

[SSridhar]

You need to know someone in government to do business in India: South Carolina governor Nikki Haley - Economic Times

Now, that is the type of comments & criticism that one welcomes; not what some US parliamentarians said about slavery, religious discrimination etc.

[SSridhar]

Making sense of an Indian American dream project ahead of PM Modi's US visit - Seema Sirohi, Economic Times
Excerpts

A common and recurring dream of India . Americans is to be as powerful as the Jewish American lobby and to have the political muscle to influence US policy in favour of the mother country.

In this dream, the bid daddies of the Indian American community stride purposefully through the corridors of power — and doors open instantly. They walk in and tell the grey suits what they want and, miraculously, things get done. Cheques are written as thankyou notes and everyone is happy.

It is a dream that successive Indian governments have also dreamt, hoping it turns into reality as Indian Americans continue to prosper. Over the years, Indian prime ministers have carefully listened to various, often boastful, Indian American groups and encouraged the dream project.

Enter Narendra Modi , a prime minister who seems specially energised by the Indian diaspora using its heft for the benefit of India. Since he himself travelled the United States widely as a BJP functionary, made connections and stayed in the homes of BJP supporters, the community is eager to please "Narendra Bhai".

A Gift for Modi

A few Indian Americans decided to flex their financial muscle to bring one of their ongoing projects to fruition — getting the US Congress to pass a law that lifts India into the realm of America's very special friends in time for Modi's visit on June 7-8. It would be an appropriate gift since Modi is spending a day on Capitol Hill, addressing a joint meeting of the US Congress and being feted by Speaker of the House of Representatives Paul Ryan.

The main organisation behind the efforts is the US-India Security Council Inc (USISC), a group launched in 2010 by a few prominent Indian Americans. Equipped with the advice of expensive lobbyists, its members have been bustling around Washington, meeting senators and congressmen over the last three months and generally whispering that something big is afoot.

But this first real attempt to be like the legendary pro-Israel lobby has got mired in intrigue, backbiting and preemptive strikes, because another group — the US-India Business Council , an industry organisation of American companies — claimed credit for work that it didn't initiate. The president of USIBC , Mukesh Aghi, has raised eyebrows all around for his undiplomatic and eager bragging.

Not kosher and surely not a lesson one would draw from Jewish Americans who are organised nationally and locally, down to the village level, as it were. They donate money and time in a disciplined manner mostly to one organisation — American Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC is the pro-Israel lobby the US Congress fears the most. Indian Americans, on the other hand, have too many organisations, working at cross purposes.

[NRao]

Long weekend, so will get back to interesting discussion in a day or two.

Meanwhile, chai-biscut memo has not reached MP/Modi. Please ensure clear comms. (JK)

HT :: Defence deal likely before PM Modi’s US visit in June




Yikes, it strikes again!!

Obama, Modi to meet on June 7 in Washington

“President Obama will meet with Prime Minister Modi of India at the White House on Tuesday, June 7. The visit will highlight the deepening of the US-India relationship in key areas since the President’s visit to New Delhi in January 2015. The President looks forward to discussing progress made on our climate change and clean energy partnership, security and defence cooperation, and economic growth priorities,” according to a statement from the White House.

Modi had last visited the US in September 2015 following Obama’s trip to India as the Chief Guest for the Republic Day celebrations early last year.

This time the most important outcome of the Prime Minister’s visit is likely to be the signing of the defence logistics pact known as the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement (LEMOA).

The LEMOA, which is known as Logistics Support Agreement (LSA) in US, will enable the military of both countries to use each other’s military bases, naval warships and fighter jets.

I think Indian MoD is preparing the minds for such an eventuality.

?????

[SSridhar]

I said before that it will be signed during this visit. All indications are to that effect.

[JwalaMukhi]

The accelerated engagement with US will continue. For all the misapprehensions, even Japanese who should have much more distaste with US, broadly engages with US much more intensely.

Modi's administration is in an unenviable position to charter course and manouver deftly. It is doing so, to the best of its ability. The principal problem is Indian babucracy has shown mostly a supplicant behavior when dealing not just with US but across its spectrum of its dealings everywhere. It is mostly a product of Nehruvian generation and their carry over hanger-ons who are intent on applying emotional baggage when dealing in business-like manner is needed. Not so recently, one witnessed undue privileges provided without reciprocity and finally some course correction happened after the diplomat's malreatment.

Knowing all that, Modi's administration has to take on Delhi-durbaris who are intent on riding the gravy train by continuing to do the same it has done for decades. This log-jam needs to be broken and Modi's admin is precisely trying to do that. This might look as unpalatable, but if there is one administration that can be trusted to deliver positively for India, it has to be this. Mistakes will be done, but nothing that cannot be undone. Paralysis and status-quo is not going to be an option with this administration. It is reflecting the aspirations of the young confident generation that can meet the world as equals, not the older generation reminiscing about good ole days. Inaction due to fear will not be the guidance and most importantly India is at a stage where it can afford to make mistakes and recover quickly. Heck it has recovered and is recovering from the abysmal Nehruvian legacy.

[arshyam]

That said, speaking hypothetically, why exactly do you think we would have resembled Japan as an ally? Why not France?

Good point, I didn't even consider France, Japan seemed so apt . Feel free to consider France here, but aren't they also part of NATO and have to listen to massa after some public posturing? True, they are more independent than the average US ally, but that's pretty much it - they are also destined to be a small European state in a few decades as they find it increasingly expensive to fund their creativity, good as it is. I want a better future for my country than that

[arshyam]

The principal problem is Indian babucracy has shown mostly a supplicant behavior when dealing not just with US but across its spectrum of its dealings everywhere. It is mostly a product of Nehruvian generation and their carry over hanger-ons who are intent on applying emotional baggage when dealing in business-like manner is needed. Not so recently, one witnessed undue privileges provided without reciprocity and finally some course correction happened after the diplomat's malreatment.

Why do you think this has anything to do with signing these agreements? Can you elaborate on it some more? And how will signing these LEMOA or whatever combination of letters will address this "principal problem"?

Also, your categorisation of the opposition to these agreements as "mis-apprehension" is interesting. Would be nice to hear more on why you think these 'apprehensions' are 'misplaced'?

[JwalaMukhi]

Why do you think this has anything to do with signing these agreements? Can you elaborate on it some more? And how will signing these LEMOA or whatever combination of letters will address this "principal problem"?

Also, your categorisation of the opposition to these agreements as "mis-apprehension" is interesting. Would be nice to hear more on why you think these 'apprehensions' are 'misplaced'?

Frankly do not know.
Have no special information, but knowing the trajectory this administration is pursuing, it is just a speculation, that this administration has much more insight into what needs to be done. Hence, whether this agreement or anything else needs to be seen in broader sense.
India as a whole has suffered tremendously from all the previous administrations engaging over a long period. Continuing with the same and expecting different results will not work. This administration is aspiring for results that are different from what we have currently and it is also convinced that getting results differently means doing not the same thing.
No the apprehensions are not mis-placed, it is healthy and needed. One has to see how this administration is moving, to gauge what is being sought after. Only reason is to give this administration a chance (which I believe is what the aspirations of the younger generation might be), when many previous administrations have been provided multiple chances to walk with open eyes into a disaster.

[JwalaMukhi]

Honestly, trickle down effect to common man on the streets has been orders of magnitude better when engaged with US when done correctly, than with any other country. Older way of dealings has fostered mostly sub-set of Indians (mostly in corridors of power) to be empowered and has had less trickle down effect. Anyone who has seen the last few generations objectively will see it. No, it is not going to make one into a Liberia, one a Japan, one a France. It is just that India chooses what it wants to be by engaging with US, and not to forget that it can be better Bharath.

[arshyam]

^^ Thanks saar. My objection is to not to engagement per se (I have articulated it many times prior in this thread), but the need to sign formal agreements that is loaded toward one side, and that is not ours. I for one, don't believe that only by signing these agreements, we can continue to engage with the US, that's all. Of course, it is in the US interest to have us sign something so as to try to reduce our room for strategic independence. The nuke deal has made me wary about signing any such thing with the US.

[Melwyn]

Even before anything concrete came out of the Indo-US pacts there were Indians clamouring for credit.

Making sense of an Indian American dream project ahead of PM Modi's US visit

A common and recurring dream of India . Americans is to be as powerful as the Jewish American lobby and to have the political muscle to influence US policy in favour of the mother country.

In this dream, the bid daddies of the Indian American community stride purposefully through the corridors of power — and doors open instantly. They walk in and tell the grey suits what they want and, miraculously, things get done. Cheques are written as thankyou notes and everyone is happy.

...

[Shankk]

No idea how true this is but here it is anyway...how Dr. Homi Bhabha was neutralized and India shown her place. Read the link in tweet for full transcript.

Here's a transcript where the late Robert Crowley from the CIA purportedly brags about 'acing' Bhabha & Shastri

FORMER CIA OFFICER ROBERT T CROWLEY: Now, now, Gregory, sometimes we can discuss serious business. There were times when we prevented terrible catastrophes and tried to secure more peace. We had trouble, you know, with India back in the 60s when they got uppity and started work on an atomic bomb. Loud mouthed cow-lovers bragging about how clever they were and how they, too, were going to be a great power in the world. The thing is, they were getting into bed with the Russians. Of course, Pakistan was in bed with the chinks so India had to find another bed partner. And we did not want them to have any kind of nuclear weaponry because God knows what they would have done with it. Probably strut their stuff like a Washington nigger with a brass watch. Probably nuke the Pakis. They're all a bunch of neo-coons anyway. Oh yes, and their head expert was fully capable of building a bomb and we knew just what he was up to. He was warned several times but what an arrogant prick that one was. Told our people to ****** off and then made it clear that no one would stop him and India from getting nuclear parity with the big boys. Loud mouths bring it all down on themselves. Do you know about any of this?

[SSridhar]

There are some loopholes in the boasting by that CIA officer.

1. First of all, the CIA guy is an unabashed racist who is talking to a journalist who is surprisingly unaware of anything about India. But, then he is an American and therefore his ignorance is understandable.

2. "We could have blown it up over Vienna but we decided the high mountains were much better for the bits and pieces to come down on." This looks to me too far fetched. The plane could have been brought down over the Mediterranean after take-off from Beirut. That they had precisely targetted the flight over Mont Blanc looks far fetched.

3. Looks to me like the boastful CIA officer is taking credit by exploiting a gullible journalist who it seems is unaware of any history or geography beyond the 10mile radius of his location.

Of course, it is well within CIA's capabilities and American arrogance to do these nasty things that the CIA officer boasts of.

[Yagnasri]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/don ... 51686.html

It is time for us to seriously examine what DT as President means for Indo-US relations. My gut feeling, which was wrong many times before, is DT may win. HC is anti-Indian and her time in the white house will not be good for our relationship. But DT is still an unknown thing.

[Singha]

DT might lessen the US meddling in worldwide affairs...IF he "control" the CIA/SD/pentagon - a tall order which none has achieved in decades. perhaps after FDR?...POTUSes kept on changing, and the kings men kept on doing what they wanted.
knowing his weak points, whatever is going on or planned will be marketed to him as enhancing the american greatness and homeland security. rinse n repeat.

[Yagnasri]

A less interventionist US may increase its image all around the world. If DT acts as a protectionist in WTO and other treaties and arrangements he may end up getting massive support from US voters and will get a second term also. China will be in serious problem as he may not allow free ride for them under his watch. 22 Trillian US deficit is not good for the world economy, and DT may end up doing something about it.

[Vayutuvan]

Jwalamukhi, agree with babucracy being supplicant but not with you observation on Japan vis a vis India. Japan is beholden to the US right from the end of WWII. India doen't have that kind of compulsion other than being weak in techunaology than Japan.

[NRao]

Hillary Clinton will not be anti-India. In fact she lean towards India. But, since by nature she gets her way, I see her as being impatient. But she will not outwit someone like Modi.

I think the Donald will get along with India very well. Perhaps not all the time.

I see India doing very well , mostly because of Modi.

[RajeshA]

Hillary Clinton will not be anti-India. In fact she lean towards India. But, since by nature she gets her way, I see her as being impatient. But she will not outwit someone like Modi.

I think the Donald will get along with India very well. Perhaps not all the time.

I see India doing very well , mostly because of Modi.

I am not sure whether HRC and DT are OT for this thread, but ...

On "Understanding the US-2" thread, there has been a discussion on this, so it would only be a repetition here. We should not forget what happened during the Bill Clinton Presidency - Robin Raphel in Kashmir. We should not forget Hillary Clinton went on a witch hunt after Modi, trying to dig up imaginary mass graves of Muslims slaughtered in 2002. We should not forget her organization gave full support to the "Rape Documentary" from BBC producer Leslee Udwin, whose job was to smear all Indian men as rapists. Hillary Clinton's most most trusted advisor, (and some say her sleeping mate) is Huma Abedin, a woman of Pakistan descent who grew up in Saudi Arabia and is considered close to Muslim Brotherhood.

Hillary is poison for India.

Yes she may put up a pretense of liking Indians and India, but she would continue to undermine our strength wherever possible. Yes, Hillary may throw a few nice words towards Indians, considering words are cheap, but she is anti-Indian to the core.

Under a President Hillary Clinton, we can expect to be talked down as huge abusers of minority rights and expect our exobranding as reckless evil Hindutva nationalists to go apace. US Presidents learned lately throwing a few bones of dehyphenation to Indians go a long way in winning us over. One cannot even expect that from Hillary Rodham Clinton.

[Viv S]

There are some loopholes in the boasting by that CIA officer.

Bah! Next you'll be claiming that Crowley's role in John F Kennedy's assassination is also an invention? And (the interviewer) Gregory Douglas' book proving that fact is just a work of fiction? Bury your head in the sand if you want, but the truth is out there! #Truthneverdies

After Corson's death, Trento and a well-known Washington fix-lawyer went to Corson's bank, got into his safe deposit box and removed a manuscript entitled 'Zipper.' This manuscript, which dealt with Crowley's involvement in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, vanished into a CIA burn-bag and the matter was considered to be closed forever.

The small group of CIA officials gathered at Trento's house to search through the Crowley papers, looking for documents that must not become public. A few were found but, to their consternation, a significant number of files Crowley was known to have had in his possession had simply vanished.

When published material concerning the CIA's actions against Kennedy became public in 2002, it was discovered to the CIA's horror, that the missing documents had been sent by an increasingly erratic Crowley to another person and these missing papers included devastating material on the CIA's activities in South East Asia to include drug running, money laundering and the maintenance of the notorious 'Regional Interrogation Centers' in Viet Nam and, worse still, the Zipper files proving the CIA’s active organization of the assassination of President John Kennedy..

A massive, preemptive disinformation campaign was readied, using government-friendly bloggers, CIA-paid "historians" and others, in the event that anything from this file ever surfaced. The best-laid plans often go astray and in this case, one of the compliant historians, a former government librarian who fancied himself a serious writer, began to tell his friends about the CIA plan to kill Kennedy and eventually, word of this began to leak out into the outside world.

[Yagnasri]

This is more of a repeat discussion. But how fast we are forgetting "get Modi campaign" run by HC when she was in the SD. Her friend Huma is a closet Jihadist and Paki lover. She will have a big say with HC as President. Nuclear hardliners and greens also will have a great say under her. We can not "make coal miners to lose their jobs" in India and pressure on that front will be quite huge. HC and her gang are famous for using NGOs to attack India and these attacks will intensify.

[SSridhar]

Bah! Next you'll be claiming that Crowley's role in John F Kennedy's assassination is also an invention? And (the interviewer) Gregory Douglas' book proving that fact is just a work of fiction? Bury your head in the sand if you want, but the truth is out there! #Truthneverdies

I have never heard of this Crowley character before, nor about his friend variously described as a journalist and historian. Being blissfully ignorant of these two characters, and not losing any sleep on that account, I simply made my heuristic call about this Crowley character's boasting. Now that you brought my attention to this racist gentleman with a link to CIA's involvement in JFK's assassination 'revealed' by this 'increasingly erratic' {CIA's description} man, I find a significant difference between 'Operation Zipper' and 'Operation Homi Bhabha' as far as the Crowley character was concerned. He gave actual documents to his journalist/historian friend regarding JFK whereas it was all oral when it came to Bhabha & Shastri.

BTW, everyone knows the capabilities of the CIA and the extent to which Americans can go. There is no doubt about that. But, this Bhabha/Shahstri stuff looks dubious to me, at least.

[TSJones]

actually he plane was shot down by an F-35 proto-type launched from a US carrier in the Med. it was then that the decision was made to bankrupt the American economy by ordering 1,000's of F-35s in order to cover up the horrible deed.

[NRao]

Hillary Clinton will not be anti-India. In fact she lean towards India. But, since by nature she gets her way, I see her as being impatient. But she will not outwit someone like Modi.

I think the Donald will get along with India very well. Perhaps not all the time.

I see India doing very well , mostly because of Modi.

I am not sure whether HRC and DT are OT for this thread, but ...

This is the Indo-US relations thread?

On "Understanding the US-2" thread, there has been a discussion on this, so it would only be a repetition here. We should not forget what happened during the Bill Clinton Presidency - Robin Raphel in Kashmir. We should not forget Hillary Clinton went on a witch hunt after Modi, trying to dig up imaginary mass graves of Muslims slaughtered in 2002. We should not forget her organization gave full support to the "Rape Documentary" from BBC producer Leslee Udwin, whose job was to smear all Indian men as rapists. Hillary Clinton's most most trusted advisor, (and some say her sleeping mate) is Huma Abedin, a woman of Pakistan descent who grew up in Saudi Arabia and is considered close to Muslim Brotherhood.

Hillary is poison for India.

Yes she may put up a pretense of liking Indians and India, but she would continue to undermine our strength wherever possible. Yes, Hillary may throw a few nice words towards Indians, considering words are cheap, but she is anti-Indian to the core.

Under a President Hillary Clinton, we can expect to be talked down as huge abusers of minority rights and expect our exobranding as reckless evil Hindutva nationalists to go apace. US Presidents learned lately throwing a few bones of dehyphenation to Indians go a long way in winning us over. One cannot even expect that from Hillary Rodham Clinton.

This is more of a repeat discussion. But how fast we are forgetting "get Modi campaign" run by HC when she was in the SD. Her friend Huma is a closet Jihadist and Paki lover. She will have a big say with HC as President. Nuclear hardliners and greens also will have a great say under her. We can not "make coal miners to lose their jobs" in India and pressure on that front will be quite huge. HC and her gang are famous for using NGOs to attack India and these attacks will intensify.

I get ALL that.

However, extrapolation works very well in social sciences and sciences. In pure politics, it is good to keep that sort of info in the back pocket - one will need it for sure - but as times change so do the behavior of politicians.

Just for the record I said "lean", not "pro" India.

And, there are two things that make me predict that: 1) NO ONE can ignore India any longer (the assumption is that India *takes care of business* and does not go of on a tangent political/religious/social/whatever) and 2) Modi continuous down the path he has been following in all respects (as an example, he will throw every NGO out of the country and not care about what the US thinks)(and that is how the game is played, not continuous analysis). HC can yak and yaw, but that will not impact the "relationship" - remember the deep state? That deep state in the US is slowly waking to the fact that this is a new India that the US needs.

I think India will dictate terms. Granted the change will not be immediate (EG: we may see Italy with an upper hand on the MTCR issue). But, when the change comes everyone better watch out.

The US, for one, has recognized that (more on that later - I was going to post a more complete post on the LEMOA topic).

HC will change her color - for good. Not because she will grow to like India, but because she will have no choice.

I would, for the time being, throw those *very valid points*, used to extrapolate, out of the window. Only because (I think) there are more recent points to include in the data set.

[SSridhar]

actually he plane was shot down by an F-35 proto-type launched from a US carrier in the Med. it was then that the decision was made to bankrupt the American economy by ordering 1,000's of F-35s in order to cover up the horrible deed.

But then, it was not a CT by us dumb Indians. It is what one of your very own from the 'Deepest State' claims !

[Viv S]

I find a significant difference between 'Operation Zipper' and 'Operation Homi Bhabha' as far as the Crowley character was concerned. He gave actual documents to his journalist/historian friend regarding JFK whereas it was all oral when it came to Bhabha & Shastri.

Claimed 'actual documents'. One would also wonder why the CIA would have retained documentary evidence of their plan to kill their own President. I mean it is a bureaucracy and all bureaucracies generate paperwork but this would be taking it to absurd levels.

In the review of CIA “Operation Zipper” in this book you will see CIA agents James J. Angleton and Robert T. Crowley planning the assassination of the president, beginning in early March of 1963. Before the end of March, according to the documents, J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI, Lyndon B. Johnson, Vice President, and General Lyman Lemnitzer, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had been brought into the plan along with the Chicago Mafia and Israeli Mossad. - Link

RTC: How astute, Gregory. Let me tell you, my boy, the whole world would be far better off if some rag head set off an atomic bomb in downtown Tel Aviv during Passover. I know that sounds terrible but from my years of experience, that game would well be worth the candle. I tell you, if we don’t put a stop to their burrowing, treachery and high treason, those filthy Yids will drag us into a nasty war with the Arabs. I mean it. None of them care a fig about this country. Everything for that miserable habitat of warped trolls and nothing for anyone else. No wonder they have been hated and persecuted for thousands of years. The Romans had a wonderful chance to advance civilization by killing them all off but they missed their opportunity.

GD: The tsars should have chased them all into Siberia and we would have been spared Bolshevism.

RTC: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And now they want to kill off all the Arabs in the Near East and move into their homes. And they would expect us to help them. I tell you that if we don’t get our nose out of Israel’s hairy ass, the Arabs will come after us as well. America has no business over there and Israel is not our friend. America is full of white Christians and Jews hate all Christians and do their best to rape, loot and pillage us, all in the name of greater Israel. Well, not in my lifetime but maybe in yours, Gregory, in yours.

GD: If you send me the papers, I will do my best.

RTC: Expose and derail. They have already looted England and Poland and now they’re raping Russia and we’re next on the menu. And their creepy Mossad agents are crawling all over this country as well. The FBI knows about this so that’s one of the reasons to keep quiet around Kimmel. You tell him anything hot and juicy and Tom will burn the line to the headquarters. Once they have it, the Jews will have their hands on it in seconds and they can either put a few pounds of cocaine in your car or shoot your crippled mother as a warning. Say nothing and publish. - Link

[svinayak]

There are some loopholes in the boasting by that CIA officer.

1. First of all, the CIA guy is an unabashed racist who is talking to a journalist who is surprisingly unaware of anything about India. But, then he is an American and therefore his ignorance is understandable.

2. "We could have blown it up over Vienna but we decided the high mountains were much better for the bits and pieces to come down on." This looks to me too far fetched. The plane could have been brought down over the Mediterranean after take-off from Beirut. That they had precisely targetted the flight over Mont Blanc looks far fetched.

3. Looks to me like the boastful CIA officer is taking credit by exploiting a gullible journalist who it seems is unaware of any history or geography beyond the 10mile radius of his location.

Of course, it is well within CIA's capabilities and American arrogance to do these nasty things that the CIA officer boasts of.

How did they do LB Shastri? This transcript reveals that they tried to work with Soviets to go after Mao.
For India they may have worked with Mao to go after LBS and buried Indian bomb. They recruited Mao to warn India in 1962.

Need to give credit to Indira Gandhi to review and test in 1974.

There were times when we prevented
terrible catastrophes and tried to secure more peace. We had trouble,
you know, with India back in the 60s when they got uppity and started
work on an atomic bomb. Loud mouthed cow-lovers bragging about how
clever they were and how they, too, were going to be a great power in
the world. The thing is, they were getting into bed with the Russians.
Of course, Pakistan was in bed with the chinks so India had to find
another bed partner. And we did not want them to have any kind of
nuclear weaponry because God knows what they would have done with it.
Probably strut their stuff like a Washington nigger with a brass
watch. Probably nuke the Pakis. They're all a bunch of neo-coons
anyway. Oh yes, and their head expert was fully capable of building a
bomb and we knew just what he was up to. He was warned several times
but what an arrogant prick that one was. Told our people to ****** off
and then made it clear that no one would stop him and India from
getting nuclear parity with the big boys. Loud mouths bring it all
down on themselves. Do you know about any of this?

India was warned many times not to start the Bomb. Perkovich book talks about Indian leaders discussing the Bomb right around 1957.
This interview also explains the 1962 war and 1965 war.

They supported Mao after 1971 war to put pressure on India. Mao China has become uncontrollable and has become a rogue nation.

[Cosmo_R]

@arshyam ^^^:So, answer your question vis-avis 1962, yes, we are better matched with the Chinese. We just don't seem to realize it."

In 1962, JLN told the IA to "throw them out". He also thought India was well matched against the PRC at that time until he didn't.

Karan M had some views (I think it was in the China thread) that IIRC, suggested we would be up against it if we took on the Chinese. I cannot find it else I would link it here. Perhaps Karan would oblige.

The issue of India not having nukes if we'd been closer to the US is false. Pakistan which was the most allied of allies got nukes. The Israelis got nukes. The South Africans got nukes (1978). No Soviet ally got nukes except for China.

Point is, the US takes the high horse when it comes to non-allies/enemies but cynically overlooks the behavior of allies. The 'ba*t*a*d' but our 'ba*t*a*d' principle AKA realpolitik. The space program would not have been sanctioned any more than it already has been. Not going go there in this thread but the key to managing US behavior is lobbying and to do that you have to enlist their MIC.

On your point about the populations of Italy and Spain vs Gujarat/Andhra/Odisha, you're counting the wrong beans. It's not people but GDP. Look at Italy and Spain. And, look at what we buy from them that we can't make.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... nominal%29

Finally, VivS has an excellent point: why do have to ally with the US in the same sense as Japan when it could be (have been) the French model?

JMT

[svinayak]

This was the same argument I heard in the 1950s about non-alignment and then came 1962:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... china-war/

Does anyone really think we are better matched today against the PRC?

Count me in. If we had allied with the US back then, we would not have a nuclear weapons programme, a space programme, etc. We would have become like Japan, this elderly and likeable neighbourhood uncle who jumps at the sound of a barking street dog. Oh, and as the good allies, we would have cheerily signed the NPT, CTBT, and MTCR and any other 'T's the western nations may have thrown our way, so as to have the crumbs of a civil nuclear energy program and a military stayed in the main through American imports. Agni, Brahmos, Tejas, Arihant, IRNSS? No siree! At best, we would have a tenuous nuke umbrella provided by the US, leaving us to shiver in our dhoties whether that umbrella would actually work in front of Chinese belligerence, which in turn, would be tightly coupled with the US economy. So we would stay uncertain about own security. Again, like Japan today. (I know counter-factuals can be written anyway, but I couldn't resist)

The point is, with our independent stance, we today have a credible missile programme, backed by a nuclear weapons programme, a triad with a second strike capability, all developed by ourselves (IP belongs to us only). Matched by a continental navigation system in case we need to go far off shore and deal with China. China knows that, and won't poke us too much, and we likewise. We don't need to worry if the Amirkhans will step up and help us in the event of a future Chinese aggression, since we are confident of having our gear to defend ourselves.

Do we have enough of it? Of course not. But that's mostly a factor of a small defence budget and lack of urgency. It's mostly our doing. But that is no reason to say that allying with the Americans will help us when simply believing in ourselves and investing more of our monies into production itself will go a long way.

So, answer your question vis-avis 1962, yes, we are better matched with the Chinese. We just don't seem to realize it.

Racial overtones are heavy from the western countries during 50' and 60s. It is still there but there is more support from other nations now for India. To keep India from have the bomb they had a reason. India was susceptible for breakup and they needed weak Indian govt. They needed PRC to have the bomb due to soviet threat. India was their special focus since they looked at India with suspicion, racial stereotype, getting close to Russians, bragging leaders, rival to Pakistan etc. The list is long and most of them still hold true.

If India has accepted the umbrella , India would have negated the independence and the purpose of the freedom struggle from the western colonial powers.
Even now in the deterrence thread there is a paper posted from a western think tank where they are looking to insert peacekeeping force in Kashmir to prevent India and Pak confrontation. Indian independence leaders did not put their lives to gain independence to again go thru this kind of talk. Never again India will have any foreign troops inside India. Foreign intervention must stop completely inside India.

For the freedom there is price and India has to pay the price of spending on defence and strong state.

[csharma]

Vikram Sood seems to be warning Modi about getting too close to US?

http://blogs.economictimes.indiatimes.c ... o-us-ties/