Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

[JTull]

Wheels did get airborne!

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/737106066450710529

[shiv]

EDIT: I saw the pic on twitter. Flaps were deployed and it looks like its few inches off the ground, unless my eyes are cheated by some spell.

To me it appears 48 inches off the ground. When the Wright brothers plane did that they called it "First flight". We call it HSTT

[JayS]

^^ Indeed.
I am thinking what exactly did the pilot do there. Did he rotate the a/c at V_rot and immediately levelled off for some distance before touch down again?? Or he didn't pull back the stick at all and just kept the jet level, the a/c got off the ground, remained off the ground for some distance before touch down. In second case it possible for the jet to go beyond it TO speed without generating enough lift for proper take off since AoA is not enough.

[deejay]

^^ Indeed.
I am thinking what exactly did the pilot do there. Did he rotate the a/c at V_rot and immediately levelled off for some distance before touch down again?? Or he didn't pull back the stick at all and just kept the jet level, the a/c got off the ground, remained off the ground for some distance before touch down. In second case it possible for the jet to go beyond it TO speed without generating enough lift for proper take off since AoA is not enough.

Nilesh ji, I am no AD expert but this is a basic trainer. Designed to fly despite the ab initio pilot not trying to be a pilot. To give you an idea (and from memory) HPT 32 Take Off speed was 130 Kmph.

These things are designed to get airborne.

All in all good to see it flying already. Ab toh landing bhi ho gaya.

[shiv]

I am 10.000 times less pilot than any real pilot on here and you don't want to hear about my entry into any cockpit on this forum. Having said that I was imagining the pilot with ailerons or spoilers pointing towards jannat pushing the blane down towards kafiristan. However the flaps are town and tail level. The plane did its job and congratulations to all. May it come out soon from trials literally with all guns blazing with spinning stalling looping shooping rolling bolling all sorted out with more ease and less resistance from import baboos than we have seen with other aircraft

[JayS]

^^ No "ji" please deejay saar. Me nanna munna brf jingo only.

Yeah. That's why I was thinking about it. It actually difficult to keep it from flying at 95knots. From quick googling, I got an impression that its difficult to do HSTT for such aircraft that too at this high speed. These kind of a/c are designed with stall speed of mere 60-65knots.

Can't wait to see it flying officially for first time now.

[kvraghavaiah]

HAL LUH (Light utility helicopter / light observation helicopter) also is due for maiden flight.

I am searching every other day in the internet to see the news of its maiden flight.

[member_26535]

"The Hindustan Turbo Trainer (HTT-40) is scheduled for its first flight between 8 am and 9 am. HAL officially is mum on the first flight, considering there will be an ‘official flight’ later in the presence of ‘biggies’ from Delhi.......

A young team of engineers and designers from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are praying for clear weather on Tuesday (May 31) morning so that their pet metal bird could kiss the sky for the first time.......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1095874

[deejay]

"The Hindustan Turbo Trainer (HTT-40) is scheduled for its first flight between 8 am and 9 am. HAL officially is mum on the first flight, considering there will be an ‘official flight’ later in the presence of ‘biggies’ from Delhi.......

A young team of engineers and designers from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) are praying for clear weather on Tuesday (May 31) morning so that their pet metal bird could kiss the sky for the first time.......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1095874

Ha Ha Ha. An amateur aviation photographer called me an hour ago with this news and said "please keep it to yourself but we could go to a vantage point for photography tomorrow." I was thinking - Waah, I have inside scoop and here it is all splashed in news.

[Neela]

Can a commercial variant be derived from the HTT-40. ?

[deejay]

Remembering a recent series of posts on Mechuka and surrounding again because of a tweet from AKM:

https://twitter.com/writetake

DPR ‏@SpokespersonMoD 5h5 hours ago
Op capability of IAF gets major boost by relaunching of ALG Mechuka today by Air Marshal C. Hari Kumar AOC-in-C EAC. pic.twitter.com/Pj9SyLpHd5

I just love the sights of this place. Heavenly!

[rakall]

Can a commercial variant be derived from the HTT-40. ?

Would turn out to be too expensive.. HTT40 is priced at 34crore.

A two seater Hansa from NAL was priced (estimated) around 50Lakh in 2000.
A stretched version of Hansa called NM5 that NAL & Mahindra designed+manufactured together was priced at 1.5cr in 2010.

[Neela]

^^^
THanks

[Yagnasri]

Mango question alert - Why not use Hamsa for basic training purpose then? I mean it sounds much cheaper than 32 Cr.

[malushahi]

Remembering a recent series of posts on Mechuka and surrounding again because of a tweet from AKM:

https://twitter.com/writetake

DPR ‏@SpokespersonMoD 5h5 hours ago
Op capability of IAF gets major boost by relaunching of ALG Mechuka today by Air Marshal C. Hari Kumar AOC-in-C EAC. pic.twitter.com/Pj9SyLpHd5

I just love the sights of this place. Heavenly!

another tweet:
https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 1639795713

[PratikDas]

#BreakingNews #HTT40 lands safe after its maiden flight. "Smooth take-off & landing," says an engineer. Details soon

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/737487184874246144

[Philip]

Finally it has officially flown.Now for accelerated flight testing with more prototypes built asap.

[kvraghavaiah]

IJT Sitara started making rounds in the skies near HAL airport at 8 AM; awaiting for HTT-40 in the sky. At around 8:10 AM, HTT-40 was flying over my head, escorted by Sitara just 10 meters away. Both aircrafts made 2-3 rounds together in the sky very slowly. HTT-40 is as big as Sitara and actually its wings seemed to be a little wider than those of SItara. I wanted to shoot a video in my smartphone, but unfortunately i was outside my house for a morning walk with out phone in my pocket. I came back home fastto pick the phone, but by then the HTT-40 was travelling towards runway for landing back, at a long distance from me.

[rakall]

Mango question alert - Why not use Hamsa for basic training purpose then? I mean it sounds much cheaper than 32 Cr.

Both are vastly different applications with different requirements/specifications.

Hansa has speed (210kmph), range (~850km), Cieling (10000ft) are much less than those required for military training purposes.. HTT40 brochure speed (450kmph), Cieling (6km) are twice that of Hansa. More over the HTT40 needs to pull higher G's than the Hansa + have ejection seats + mil grade electronics & FADEC equipped engine.. On top of that HTT40 also can be weaponized with rockets & dumb bombs..

[Bhaskar_T]

Suvarna Raju (HAL Boss) congrats the entire HTT40 team (Tarmac tweets).

Many thanks Rakall. Another Mango question alert. I wish someone can quote similar statistics for Pilatus Trainer vs HTT40, at least cost of PC-Mk2? Is HTT40 a suitable replacement of Pilatus? Is it likely that HTT40 maturity (HAL delivery to IAF) happens once IAF gets all their 181 basic trainers from Pilatus? Was MII (Make In India) explored while importing PC Mk2? Does HAL assembles PC Mk2 or Pilatus assembles PC Mk2 somewhere in India?

PS - As per below article, IAF wanted 181 basic trainers, a firm order of 75 PC-7 MK2 was placed in 2012 by IAF. (Do not know how many have been delivered by Swiss). The remaining 106 were notionally split into 38 more from Pilatus and 68 from HAL (HTT40), mediated by MOD.
Added later - There was a RFI by GOI later for 106 purchase under "Buy and Make" (or MII) where 106 PC-7 Mk2 will be built locally with an Indian partner with at least 50% indigenous content. Not sure, if Pilatus responded to this.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... m-pilatus/

http://www.airforce-technology.com/news ... ft-4200297

Mango question alert - Why not use Hamsa for basic training purpose then? I mean it sounds much cheaper than 32 Cr.

Both are vastly different applications with different requirements/specifications.

Hansa has speed (210kmph), range (~850km), Cieling (10000ft) are much less than those required for military training purposes.. HTT40 brochure speed (450kmph), Cieling (6km) are twice that of Hansa. More over the HTT40 needs to pull higher G's than the Hansa + have ejection seats + mil grade electronics & FADEC equipped engine.. On top of that HTT40 also can be weaponized with rockets & dumb bombs..

[rakall]

Suvarna Raju (HAL Boss) congrats the entire HTT40 team (Tarmac tweets).

Many thanks Rakall. Another Mango question alert. I wish someone can quote similar statistics for Pilatus Trainer vs HTT40, at least cost of PC-Mk2? Is HTT40 a suitable replacement of Pilatus? Is it likely that HTT40 maturity (HAL delivery to IAF) happens once IAF gets all their 181 basic trainers from Pilatus? Was MII (Make In India) explored while importing PC Mk2? Does HAL assembles PC Mk2 or Pilatus assembles PC Mk2 somewhere in India?

PS - As per below article, IAF wanted 181 basic trainers, a firm order of 75 PC-7 MK2 was placed in 2012 by IAF. (Do not know how many have been delivered by Swiss). The remaining 106 were notionally split into 38 more from Pilatus and 68 from HAL (HTT40), mediated by MOD.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... m-pilatus/

The performance data of Pilatus is here http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/00-def/ ... 0Sheet.pdf

it is premature to compare speed, range of Pilatus with HTT40 now.. The numbers I quoted above were from a brochure in 2011-12. Different numbers are quoted in the below article.. Further there does not seem to be much price difference between Pilatus & HTT40. The advantage being building up design capability in-house & spending most of the money within India..
https://www.facebook.com/notes/indian-n ... 351612201/

[Singha]

video of HTT40 takeoff https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 2336897030

[JTull]

video of HTT40 takeoff https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 2336897030

Nice

[Neela]

The performance data of Pilatus is here http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/00-def/ ... 0Sheet.pdf

it is premature to compare speed, range of Pilatus with HTT40 now.. The numbers I quoted above were from a brochure in 2011-12. Different numbers are quoted in the below article.. Further there does not seem to be much price difference between Pilatus & HTT40. The advantage being building up design capability in-house & spending most of the money within India..
https://www.facebook.com/notes/indian-n ... 351612201/

Thanks rakall.
From the FB page you posted:
2018 is the when HTT-40 is expected to be delivered to IAF.
35Cr is price.
6Cr is the cost of non-indigenous components . I guess most of it will go to the engine.
Also, in the last paras, HAL feels IN will eventually set up its own Flight Training centers resulting in Navy orders for HTT 40.
Then there is export potential as well. With DefMin clearly mentioning in several interviews that he is looking to increasing share of defence exports, this could be a good candidate.

[shiv]

video of HTT40 takeoff https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 2336897030

Let me cast the first stone(s) in criticizing the HTT 40 and asking for something to be imported

From the video:
1. The plane is yellow in color. Planes are not yellow. Indicates inexperience
2. The propeller was turning too slowly in the video. I could see the blades.
3. At the end of the video right wing was slightly down. Normally wings are kept at same level
4. We have a long way to go. If we invited private industry like Nestle or ITC they would able to make these things quickly.
5. I heard they make good planes in Italy

[Gyan]

HTT-40 cannot take off from Sea. It cannot glide into space. We Indians cannot make cycles, how can we make aircraft? There is so much poverty, Indians still squat on Railway lines, why we need to manufacture planes, we are better off importing them from Switzerland, cheaply! Import 200 Rafales immediately.

[srai]

Suvarna Raju (HAL Boss) congrats the entire HTT40 team (Tarmac tweets).

Many thanks Rakall. Another Mango question alert. I wish someone can quote similar statistics for Pilatus Trainer vs HTT40, at least cost of PC-Mk2? Is HTT40 a suitable replacement of Pilatus? Is it likely that HTT40 maturity (HAL delivery to IAF) happens once IAF gets all their 181 basic trainers from Pilatus? Was MII (Make In India) explored while importing PC Mk2? Does HAL assembles PC Mk2 or Pilatus assembles PC Mk2 somewhere in India?

PS - As per below article, IAF wanted 181 basic trainers, a firm order of 75 PC-7 MK2 was placed in 2012 by IAF. (Do not know how many have been delivered by Swiss). The remaining 106 were notionally split into 38 more from Pilatus and 68 from HAL (HTT40), mediated by MOD.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... m-pilatus/

The performance data of Pilatus is here http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/00-def/ ... 0Sheet.pdf

it is premature to compare speed, range of Pilatus with HTT40 now.. The numbers I quoted above were from a brochure in 2011-12. Different numbers are quoted in the below article.. Further there does not seem to be much price difference between Pilatus & HTT40. The advantage being building up design capability in-house & spending most of the money within India..
https://www.facebook.com/notes/indian-n ... 351612201/

AFAIK, Pilatus can't be weaponized. Also, current government is investigating corruption in that deal. Both good news for HTT-40.

[Philip]

The Pilatus products are like Bofors guns.Excellent products,the best basic trainers worldwide. The PC-21 is supposed to be capable of eliminating an IJT and can be configured to simulate characteristics of various strike aircraft.Its export list speaks for itself. The HHT-40 as Shiv said has along way to go,extensive testing and will be compared with the performance and reliability of the PC-7. Cost another factor. Nevertheless,let HAL rise to the occasion and aim for the skies with this fundamental flyer.

[Gyan]

We already have adequate Pilatus. IAF is flying them for less than 200 hours per annum, why can this utilization rate be not increased till HTT-40 is more mature?

[Philip]

Why not indeed.What is the average utilisation rate of other air forces operating the same type? Any chance of obtaining stats?

[Bhaskar_T]

@srai - Not that I know a lot about PC7 Mk2 but while reading up today on IAF order of Pilatus trainer aircraft, I read on Wiki that PC7 Mk2 has got some operational history. In addition to quoting operational history below from Wiki, when South Africans bought the Pilatus in 1993, Swiss didn't provide hard armapoints due to some political considerations.

Question remains, whether Indian bought Pilatus aircraft have hard armapoints, can they be weaponized?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilatus_PC-7

PC-7s were used by the Iraqi Air Force for close air support in the Iran-Iraq war. They were also used to deliver chemical weapons against Iranian troops.[3]

The Chadian Air Force has used its small fleet of PC-7s to bomb rebel positions both in their own territory and in neighbouring Sudan.[4]

PC-7s were employed by the Guatemalan Air Force in air strikes and for close air support during the Guatemalan civil war, starting in 1982 until the end of the conflict in 1996. The PC-7s deployed from the airfield in La Aurora armed with gunpods and light rocket launchers.[5]

In 1994, Mexican Air Force armed PC-7s were used to attack Zapatista Army of National Liberation during the Chiapas conflict in Mexico. This action was considered illegal by the Swiss government because the airplanes were sold for training purposes only, and as result, Switzerland issued a ban to sell more units to Mexico.[6]

In the mid to late 1990s, Executive Outcomes, a private military contractor (PMC) led by Eben Barlow, utilised three armed PC-7s (ex-Bophuthatswana Air Force aircraft) to provide close air support during its operations in Sierra Leone.[7]

AFAIK, Pilatus can't be weaponized. Also, current government is investigating corruption in that deal. Both good news for HTT-40.

[Neela]

IAF bought MkII
http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/#68

10.11.2015 Successful Delivery of the 75th PC-7 MkII to the Indian Air Force

[deejay]

Saw the whole first flight today, starting from the chase plane (HJT 16) taking off and culminating with the big loud cheer that went out as the pilots stepped out of the HTT 40 after landing. Goose Bumps moment.

HTT 40 is comparable in size and performance with the Pilatus we have. HPT 32 was smaller. HPT 32 had a fixed undercarriage as does Hansa (?). I was surprised to see HTT 40 with a retractable undercarriage.

From beginning of ground runs to first flight I think has been in less than 02 months. The testing schedule for the BTT will not be as extensive as an LCA. Except for 02 remaining hurdles of stall and spin, the rest would not hamper quick progress.

The plans are to have some weaponisation too, IIRC. All in all HTT 40 eliminates the need to further import Pilatus once it enters production. A good thing on the horizon of Made In India. Cheers to the crew and team members on the first flight.

@Gyan ji, our rate of flying the aircraft is among the highest, if not the highest in the world. Training flying is not something you force a pupil to do. Per pupil instructional flying cannot exceed 02 sorties per day as per flight safety rules. As a general practice, our instructors would try not to push more than 01.

To further increase training hours per aircraft, we will need more pupils, more instructors and infrastructure for them. Once we increase the number of passing out pupils, we will need more fighter sqns to absorb them. Everything is linked. Nothing will work in isolation.

The number of aircraft procured is justified based on similar calculations of infrastructure, instructor, pupil, ratios of each vs. other and absorption on graduating pilots. These calculations are much more detailed than what I have mentioned.

[rohitvats]

<SNIP> @Gyan ji, our rate of flying the aircraft is among the highest, if not the highest in the world. Training flying is not something you force a pupil to do. Per pupil instructional flying cannot exceed 02 sorties per day as per flight safety rules. As a general practice, our instructors would try not to push more than 01.

To further increase training hours per aircraft, we will need more pupils, more instructors and infrastructure for them. Once we increase the number of passing out pupils, we will need more fighter sqns to absorb them. Everything is linked. Nothing will work in isolation.

The number of aircraft procured is justified based on similar calculations of infrastructure, instructor, pupil, ratios of each vs. other and absorption on graduating pilots. These calculations are much more detailed than what I have mentioned.

What nonsense!

You've been obviously been fed with caviar and champagne with long legged blonds for company to say the above. When every intelligent and uber patriot on this forum knows that IAF has deliberately kept the utilization rate low to ensure larger order size for 'foreign' product while all the while belittling home grown one.

Uber-patriots with sharp IQ will not fall for this heresy which you call as 'logical' explanation. Time to fetch the bamboo in my courtyard to force this desi-product down the throat of foreign 'maal' loving IAF.

[srai]

...

Question remains, whether Indian bought Pilatus aircraft have hard armapoints, can they be weaponized?

...

Not allowed per end user agreements.

HAL vs IAF: Govt decision on trainer aircraft row today

...
HAL officials made another powerful argument to the MoD on Thursday -- that "end user" agreements with Pilatus ban India from weaponising the PC-7 Mark II, which means kitting it out as a light fighter with guns, bombs and rockets.
...

[Karan M]

Not that we'd likely use them like that but the gall of some Pilatus dictating to India is just a bit much.

[deejay]

Not that we'd likely use them like that but the gall of some Pilatus dictating to India is just a bit much.

There are other problems with Pilatus agreement. I've heard there might be issues with warranty / guarantee clauses.

The Swiss were "shocked" to see the quantum of flying at AFA. Pls not to quote me on this as this is "overheard" only.

Hmmm...

[Bhaskar_T]

75 deliveries in 3 years,without any Ooh-Aah-Ouch !! Seems both Pilatus and HAL were keenly eyeing the rest 106 trainer order, Pilatus by ensuring timely deliveries and HAL by accelerating the maiden filght of HTT. Interesting, with similar costs (35-38 Crore) but lot more indigenous content, the yet to be proven as full classified trainer HTT (spin, stall tests etc) would be able to compete with Pilatus? Can IAF wait till HTT matures, say in next few years? If IAF cannot wait, then indeed as suggested by MOD before, 38 more Pilatus can be ordered and rest 68 can be from HAL.

IAF bought MkII
http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/#68

10.11.2015 Successful Delivery of the 75th PC-7 MkII to the Indian Air Force

[Bhaskar_T]

Well, Pilatus with Baniya mentality must have ensured that India shouldn't do any jugaad thing to PC7 Mk2 instead should pay Franks to Pilatus for weaponizing the trainer aircraft. I guess HAL might do something similar to Israel or any other buyer.

Not that we'd likely use them like that but the gall of some Pilatus dictating to India is just a bit much.

[Karan M]

Not that we'd likely use them like that but the gall of some Pilatus dictating to India is just a bit much.

There are other problems with Pilatus agreement. I've heard there might be issues with warranty / guarantee clauses.

The Swiss were "shocked" to see the quantum of flying at AFA. Pls not to quote me on this as this is "overheard" only.

Hmmm...

hopefully with HTT-40, IAF will have an option to replace Pilatus when they wear out.