India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

[ArmenT]

CBSNews is reporting that in the Orlando shooting, many lives were saved by a bouncer at the bar, who is a former marine. Name of Imran Yousef, turns out he's Hindu.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-veteran ... ar-mateen/

/ Marine
// American
/// Yindoo

[Philip]

An "Undersea Wall" will not stop PLAN or Paki subs,but a mobile "undersea fleet of subs" will do far better,sinking them!. This looks like an attempt to sell us some outdated SOSUS system.We can certainly with our excellent desi sonar tech develop,design and build our own.This should include UUVs for both surveillance and prosecution of intruders.

Poor Mr.Modi.After all the wining and dining,the Senate gives India the "bum's rush" on the so-called most valuable defence partner,blah,blah! Our asinine MEA instead of reacting in indignation,are swallowing the Senate's vomit trying to pretend that it is "no big deal".Of course such a label is no big deal.! Those who've been touting this so-called special relationship with the US that will make India a great power,blah,blah, must be tying themselves in knots like a fakir in trying to spin this "eviction" from the dining room by the Senate,let alone partaking at the high table. The only manner in which the US wants us to remain in the dining room is as waiters or footmen.Snake-Oil Singh was the perfect doorman-cum-butler for Dubya Bush with his nauseating "India loves you" sycophancy towards his "master".

[/b]It should also teach Mr.Modi a signal lesson. [/b] He has lost face. Let him have no illusions henceforth. The establishment in the US look upon him as a curiosity,an entertainer,who also pays for his entry and meal ticket by presenting his "tribute" in the form of lucrative contracts for US MNCs and defence contractors. He will NEVER be allowed to sit at the high table because he/we is/are an Indian/s.The WASPs are a Yanqui tribe where no outsiders are admitted, and the "5-Eyes" club is meant only for the Anglo-Saxon elite,not even their "White Caucasian European NATO bum-chums It is amazing how the Japanese have swallowed the supreme insult of no apology from any US president for the N-attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki even 70+ years on,and to them duty,honour and shame mean the most.

India and Mr.Modi have to learn that we must stand on our own feet and require no assistance from the US or anyone to claim our rightful place in the comity of nations. India's strength in anbtiquity,philosophy,religion,science,human resources military and economic power will finds its own level,wher eother nations will look towards us for leadership as they did during the heyday of NAM. Hanging onto Uncle Sam's coattails only demeans India and its leadership.

PS:What was particularly insulting about the announced "spl. def. relationship" ,was that it was first announced with great fanfare and then came the Senate's "bum's rush"! It also underscored O'Bomber's lame-duck prowess,as he should've first made sure that the Senate vote would go through .Instead he has acutely embarrassed his guest and Mr.Modi is one who remember's slights.

[Lilo]

CBSNews is reporting that in the Orlando shooting, many lives were saved by a bouncer at the bar, who is a former marine. Name of Imran Yousef, turns out he's Hindu.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-veteran ... ar-mateen/

/ Marine
// American
/// Yindoo

CBS News identified Yousuf as a Hindu and his name caused some confusion. California-based newspaper ‘India West’, which interviewed his uncle, clarified that his mother and paternal grandmother are Hindus and he identifies with their religion. His family emigrated from Guyana, where his ancestors had gone from India.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/n ... 53024.html

[JE Menon]

^^ I did lay a nice little IED on Twitter with that one 3 days ago ... Probably BRFites thought I was being psecular.

[chetak]

^^^^^^^

Phillip saar,

No matter. Give him time.

Give him full marks for trying.

Best PM we have had so far in pushing India's legitimate global interests in such a single minded and persistent manner.

Any one else, so hated and reviled for the media and NGO created alleged godhra issue, in a coordinated and world wide orchestrated plan by white and saudi motivated NGOs and pseudo sickular commie "intellectuals", would have given up and retreated into a shell a long time ago.

This is a very uncommon SDRE, media savvy, very big testicular beast who scares the hell out of the whites.

[rgosain]

CBSNews is reporting that in the Orlando shooting, many lives were saved by a bouncer at the bar, who is a former marine. Name of Imran Yousef, turns out he's Hindu.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-veteran ... ar-mateen/

/ Marine
// American
/// Yindoo

CBS News identified Yousuf as a Hindu and his name caused some confusion. California-based newspaper ‘India West’, which interviewed his uncle, clarified that his mother and paternal grandmother are Hindus and he identifies with their religion. His family emigrated from Guyana, where his ancestors had gone from India.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/mobi/news/n ... 53024.html

Taqiyya alert.
I smell a rat with this one. Whenever an incident occurs, the dhimmified media usually wheels out someone of The Faith with claims of their activities having saved others.
This one is curious because Guyanese, Trinidadian and Indians from the Caribbean tend to have names that are not influenced by religion, but more likely to cricket.

[TSJones]

the senate is not going to approve much of anything if the diplomats can't get any agreements signed.

you guys were really expecting something to happen?

why make a big deal out of it?

it's just happy talk.

big rock candy mountain.

pay it no attention.

be glad that we are one of the few countries that allows India to have a large trade deficit with us.(where India sells way more than it buys).

[SSridhar]

the senate is not going to approve much of anything if the diplomats can't get any agreements signed.

The below is what I posted nearly a fortnight back

. As India learns to do transactional business with the US, it will slowly concede to US demands depending upon the returns. For example, I still believe that LEMOA is not very far from being signed. Admission to NSG would quicken it.

So, it is a two-way street, IMO. We are learning to do business with the US.

be glad that we are one of the few countries that allows India to have a large trade deficit with us.(where India sells way more than it buys).

But, a cursory look at US trade deficits indicates that except for Afghanistan (and possibly a few similar countries), the US runs a trade deficit with most of the rest. Obviously, it is *NOT* a favour shown to India (below in M USD for Jan-Apr, 2016).

Code: Select all

Africa             -1,298.5
Algeria            -173.5
Andorra            -0.7
Angola             -247.9
Bangladesh         -1,823.4
Canada             -2,741.0
China              -102,252.1
Denmark            -1,984.5
Djibouti            35.5
France             -5,415.0
Germany            -21,322.4
Greece             -175.5
India              -8,355.6
Indonesia          -4,040.1
Iraq               -652.1
Japan              -23,156.0
South Korea        -11,416.4
Malaysia           -7,421.5
Mexico             -20,419.0
Nepal              -12.3
New Zealand        -432.4
Pakistan           -497.9
Philippines        -684.4
Russia             -2,061.4
South Africa       -619.6

[Yagnasri]

Time to start discussing November elections in a more detailed manner.

US deep state seems to be fully behind HC. Most of the press except Fox is anti DT. No one even in GOP establishment supporting him. Can he win in this condition?

[chetak]

Time to start discussing November elections in a more detailed manner.

US deep state seems to be fully behind HC. Most of the press except Fox is anti DT. No one even in GOP establishment supporting him. Can he win in this condition?

HC is deep state known entity hence controllable to an extent.

DT is deep state unknown entity hence not controllable to the extent desired??.

DT will win.

[TSJones]

the senate is not going to approve much of anything if the diplomats can't get any agreements signed.

The below is what I posted nearly a fortnight back

. As India learns to do transactional business with the US, it will slowly concede to US demands depending upon the returns. For example, I still believe that LEMOA is not very far from being signed. Admission to NSG would quicken it.

So, it is a two-way street, IMO. We are learning to do business with the US.

be glad that we are one of the few countries that allows India to have a large trade deficit with us.(where India sells way more than it buys).

But, a cursory look at US trade deficits indicates that except for Afghanistan (and possibly a few similar countries), the US runs a trade deficit with most of the rest. Obviously, it is *NOT* a favour shown to India (below in M USD for Jan-Apr, 2016).

Code: Select all

Africa             -1,298.5
Algeria            -173.5
Andorra            -0.7
Angola             -247.9
Bangladesh         -1,823.4
Canada             -2,741.0
China              -102,252.1
Denmark            -1,984.5
Djibouti            35.5
France             -5,415.0
Germany            -21,322.4
Greece             -175.5
India              -8,355.6
Indonesia          -4,040.1
Iraq               -652.1
Japan              -23,156.0
South Korea        -11,416.4
Malaysia           -7,421.5
Mexico             -20,419.0
Nepal              -12.3
New Zealand        -432.4
Pakistan           -497.9
Philippines        -684.4
Russia             -2,061.4
South Africa       -619.6

I think this link is more illustrative......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... s_of_India

[ldev]

When you have the USD as a global reserve currency, by definition it should run a trade deficit as you no longer have gold as the final settlement. The US treasury debt market is a logical extension of that because it allows those surplus countries a place to park their surpluses. But as the US share of global GDP has shrunk over the years, the base of the pyramid is now narrower than the top ( it was almost a square at the end of WW2). That gives rise to the instability that we have see in recent years. The experiment to build up the Euro as a 2nd leg has not been an entire success as is self evident.

[KJo]

CBSNews is reporting that in the Orlando shooting, many lives were saved by a bouncer at the bar, who is a former marine. Name of Imran Yousef, turns out he's Hindu.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/war-veteran ... ar-mateen/

/ Marine
// American
/// Yindoo

http://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad/ex-m ... re-1420157

CBS News identified Yousuf as a Hindu and his name caused some confusion. California-based newspaper India West, which interviewed his uncle, clarified that his mother and paternal grandmother are Hindus and he identifies with their religion. His family emigrated from Guyana, where his ancestors had gone from India.

Ourseas Hindus seem to have more respect for Hinduism than many people in India itself.

[nirav]

the senate is not going to approve much of anything if the diplomats can't get any agreements signed.

you guys were really expecting something to happen?

why make a big deal out of it?

it's just happy talk.

big rock candy mountain.

pay it no attention.

be glad that we are one of the few countries that allows India to have a large trade deficit with us.(where India sells way more than it buys).

Come to think of it, the bakistanians are a "Major non nato ally" senate approved and all. We've seen how that worked out for them.
So in this case senate is probably playing truant with officially recognizing India as a Strategic defence partner .. Big deal.

Senate Approved or not, US has already done arms business with India and military exercises which it hasnt yet with its so called Major non NATO ally ..

I think eventually it will fall in place. US needs India more in its 'pivot to Asia' than India needs US.

@ Trade : Id be real glad if US could transfer some of the huge trade deficits from China to India. Current trade value isnt at its full potential.

For the moment its the US trade volume with China which is fueling PLA modernization.
If US engages with that kind of trade with India, we'll happily "Buy American" and sign soup treaties too ..

[Manish_Sharma]

@ Trade : Id be real glad if US could transfer some of the huge trade deficits from China to India. Current trade value isnt at its full potential.

For the moment its the US trade volume with China which is fueling PLA modernization.
If US engages with that kind of trade with India, we'll happily "Buy American" and sign soup treaties too ..

Never ever gonna happen, been going through this thread and "understand US" thread for last 2 months to find out core understanding of BRF, here is what I picked up in summarizing the whole situation:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1700049

Ramana wrote:

Goals and Objectives of the three players:

US wants to be the pre-eminent power for ever and ever. Inherit the mantle of British Empire for at least next five hundred years-Churchill goal thwarted by WWII.

China wants to dislodge the US and has world beating ambition.

India wants economic prosperity and security for its citizens. No world beating ambition.

Constraints:

US:
- US is economically tied to China while being the predominant military, political and economic power.
- Because of its economic dependence, US doesn't want India to be a real threat to China.
-The US financial meltdown has led to severe erosion of economic power. The recovery is partial and only in the banking sector with massive infusion of Federal debt. China holds quite a large amount of that debt.
-Politically US is fractured with lack of clarity in foreign affairs from Eastern Europe to North Africa to West Asia and Af-Pak.
-US does not trust India and seeks to impose technological constraints perpetually. The constraint is lifted only if India already develops the technology to kill local initiative.
- US has a divided house with President and Congress of different parties. The Senate could also slip away in 2014 elections. This is due to the stasis at Main Street level while Wall Street is a roaring success. So six years of lost progress for Main Street drives the change.
- Obama -2 is like UPA-2 to put it in simple terms. Every aspect is like MMS's hand running the US.

China:
- Chinese economy is distorted with export oriented capacity.
- Chinese local consumption is slow to build up
- China military is modernizing at slow pace and not at same rate as political and economy are moving.
-Sinkiang- Uighur are becoming a problem with Islamic fundamentalism driving nationalist ambitions.
-Political reforms are needed to transform China from Communist ideology to reflect reality. Tian Mein Square protests and crackdown were a bow-shot.


India:
- Indian economy and society is just recovering from ten years of stasis with UPA inaction in every sphere of activity.
- Indian military modernization has akin a ten year checked out system.
- Indian media and opinion makers are not in sync with public mood and political reality. They are still acting as UPA is still a force to reckon with.
-Wiki and Snowden have shown the deep penetration of the political and media systems in India.
-India needs tot create new friends at least less enemies in the neighborhood and then the outer ring.
- Indian economy needs high technology in manufacturing machines, cyber IT and ports infrastructure. All this needs capital and technology inputs.

We can think of solutions later to achieve the goals.
----BTW fromm CUB:
------------------------------------------

Devesh wrote:

one astute point by Ramana ji above is that US doesn't want any serious threats to China because of their heavy investments there.

this is undoubtedly true. even tech/logistics businesses in the $100-$500 mil. range now have serious investments in PRC. also, per the volume/revenues of their offices in China, American Business considers China to be the golden-egg-laying-goose of the future.
-------------------------------------------------

CRamS questioned:

DeveshJi, you and RamanaGaru articulate the PRC US symbiotic relationship well, but what puzzles me is the public demonization of PRC by US. And make no mistake, this has a visible effect on aam junta, they do consider PRC as a "threat". What is Uncle's game here? Why the public brouhaha to the extent that his people are brainwashed into thinking PRC is enemy when in fact PRC is a bed mate?

--------------------------
Ramana answered:
How long have you been in US! The maxim is "go by what they do than by what they say!"

And read books on Nixon where he clearly sates why he opened up to China. Essentially Vietnam bankrupted the US economically (they did not rise taxes to fund the war), morally as it was the worng war, and socially as people lost trust in leaders. So he had to come to terms with FSU and split the PRC away from FSU. he offered them a way ot of the poverty by creating an opening which Mao did not take but Deng did after facing the Tien An Mein Square moment of truth. They literally feared a Caucescu moment for the leaders.

Despite all the hype, US was and is playing a balance of power strategy and not the strategy of a great power. A great power will do what it wants to and not say one thing and do another thing. Read Paul Kennedy to get more gnan.


US public needs an enemy to be motivated or else they will take it easy.


Its a Dar ul Harb economy.

even in niche industrial tech (non-high volume) companies, orders directly from top management are that "new expansion" and "emerging markets" is essentially about PRC. and more often that not, we are told openly not to 'divert' resources that go into expansion-related activities in PRC.

make absolutely no mistake about it: PRC has positioned itself very well in the American commercial-instinct-driven value hierarchy.
---------------------------

Singha wrote :

Despite India making no effort to get better and more tanks, TSP is being given 1000s of Hellfires and tows as a xbm

---------------------------------------------

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 0#p1417266

Philip wrote:
We will have drone strikes planned against us and the US and Pak might even gang up in a joint op to liberate Kashmir.

Rememebr,U heard it from moi first!

svinayak wrote :
Apart from everything else this part may be true. They had a plan for joint invasion which was floating in the internet in the early 90s. This was a cold war plan and they could revive it
-----------------------------------

There is another post by Shri Svinayak on Karl Indurfurth article, where he said in the even of Bharat-pak war US will fight on the side of pakistan or help it, while in long term the strategy is to sell Bharat more US arms so US can sanction/control Bharat at will.

I had save that post in archive but now I can't find it, requested shri svinayak but he is not responding. What to do... but that post would have completed the picture.

[svinayak]

Check the BBC archive for that report

[member_23370]

No strategic weapon system will ever be bought from US. Even US knows that. That's why there is no chance for F-18/35 or anything equivalent to S-400. India US defence deals will stay at transport aircrafts, drones and a few arty pieces level.

[Lilo]

Chennai: Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa today greeted Hillary Clinton for clinching nomination as Democratic Party's candidate for the upcoming US Presidential election, and vividly recalled the meeting between the two in 2011 in Chennai.

"It is a matter of immense pride and satisfaction for all the women in the world and in particular, women in democratic electoral politics that you have become the first woman to be a candidate of one of the two major political parties in the United States for the Presidency," she said.

In a letter to Ms Clinton, Ms Jayalalithaa said the former Secretary of State, while "creating history," had given voice and hope to the cause of women empowerment across the world.

"I have fond memories of your visit to Chennai on 20th July, 2011, as the Secretary of State, and our warm and cordial interaction on the occasion on a range of issues of mutual interest."

"My best wishes are with you for the further stages of the campaign and for the Presidential Election in November this year. I have no doubt that as your political career peaks, you will continue to be a role model for women across the world," she told the Presidential hopeful.

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/jayalali ... ?site=full

I vaguely remember that Hillary as Secy of state was busy meeting up with powerful CMs like JJ,didi back in 2012.
If she becomes the president JJ & didi will be more powerful as US will be directly aiming to balance Modi using them

[ramana]

Yes Mamata didi and JJ Amma and not to mention Sonia Borgia will all get activated.

[svinayak]

But, a cursory look at US trade deficits indicates that except for Afghanistan (and possibly a few similar countries), the US runs a trade deficit with most of the rest. Obviously, it is *NOT* a favour shown to India (below in M USD for Jan-Apr, 2016).

This firangi has been posting this for past few years.

The U.S. trade deficit with China was $365.7 billion in 2015 This is a new record, up slightly from last year's record of $343 billion. The trade deficit exists because U.S. exports to China were only $116.2 billion while imports from China hit a new record of $481.9 billion.
For the past 25 years there is a trade deficit with all countries - link

[ramana]

Deficit is because US has out sourced its polluting mfg to China. In essence most medium and light mfg is in China. Nowadays even heavy mfg like bridge towers for Oakland Bay Bridge are from China.

[nirav]

We need to divert some of that Sino US trade to Indo US trade.
The potential is indeed vast.
Weapons treaties and all that will follow..
South Korea has more trade with US than India.

Trade needs to be fixed first before we go about any strategic partnerships..

[krishna_krishna]

Ramanaguru, I am sure you would also recall in addition to meeting Didi and JJ during MMS days, SoS Clinton almost got a naval base in Bangladesh on lease.

The US is paranoid about losing its undisputed position as the sole global "superpower" and has been projecting any "up and comer" as a threat to its supremacy for the past 100 or so years, previously it was Germany, then the USSR, then Japan (1980s), now China, down the line it could be India. It is not a controversial statement to say the US public are fundamentally threatened by the "rise" of China, the extent to the validity of this threat is debateable but this is the perception.

Worst case scenario for India - combined Sino-Pak invasion kicking Indian butt! and there is nothing India can do about it.
India can (and is) building up its own abilities to fend off a combined Sino-Pak fight without the US's involvement.

[SSridhar]

be glad that we are one of the few countries that allows India to have a large trade deficit with us.(where India sells way more than it buys).

I think this link is more illustrative......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... s_of_India

No, it does not.

It is no secret that the US is the world's greatest debtor nation. You took a condescending & patronizing position vis-a-vis India as the bolded, underlined portion shows and I simply pointed out the fallacy of your trying to make a virtue out of necessity. Where is the debate here on India's patterns of trade with others?

[SSridhar]

Deficit is because US has out sourced its polluting mfg to China. In essence most medium and light mfg is in China. Nowadays even heavy mfg like bridge towers for Oakland Bay Bridge are from China.

Deficit is also because the cost of production is so high in the US.

[chanakyaa]

We need to divert some of that Sino US trade to Indo US trade.
The potential is indeed vast.
Weapons treaties and all that will follow..
South Korea has more trade with US than India.

Trade needs to be fixed first before we go about any strategic partnerships..

There is absolutely no doubt that, in theory, moving a factory from China to India would benefit state/town that will host the new factory. People are now wealthy (i.e. higher purchasing power) because the arbitrage between cost of labor between workers in China and India, is a net transfer of wealth (i.e. purchasing power) from China to India. No doubt the immediate benefit of first order (people getting higher paying job) and secondary order (other people in the area) are higher. But is it in the national interest to send more of material benefit (e.g. manufactured calculator) in exchange for electronic money? What does that tell you about the confidence in your own currency? Didn't we manufacture and export fancy goods/clothing for the Briti$it empire? Did it help India in the long run?

On a separate note, you know what I find it interesting is that there are many Indians who work, just one example, in a waste collection management company in west, doing logistics/IT etc, and some have spent their lifetime working there while waste collection remains a major problem in their own country. Trade needs to be fixed, but the need to produce "for India, in India, and consumed in India" is much higher than producing for the world. And, when you have multiple human resource rich countries competing against each other you get Walmart effect and in that scenario it is Walmart that benefits not the towns competing against each other.

[Manish_Sharma]

Check the BBC archive for that report

Thanks will look for it.

[NRao]

U.S., India, Japan Begin to Shape New Order on Asia’s High Seas

NEW DELHI—From the waters of the Philippine Sea this week emerged a partial outline of Washington’s vision for a new Asian maritime-security order that unites democratic powers to contend with a more-assertive and well-armed China.

A U.S. Navy aircraft-carrier strike group along with warships from India and Japan jointly practiced anti-submarine warfare and air-defense and search-and-rescue drills in one of the largest and most complex exercises held by the three countries.

[Arjun]

I think this link is more illustrative......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... s_of_India

Most countries (eg UK) include Services trade in calculation of trade deficit...India doesn't.

India is one of the big daddies of global services trade...conversely it is common knowledge that it has pretty much been a laggard in manufacturing thus far (except in items requiring high-end skills - such as pharma, autos, steel).

[Suresh S]

Terrific point udaym. I have myself thought about this many times . good to see someone else doing the same . I am no economist but that is a serious point to discuss. In the same vein I think there is a huge difference between just fast growth in so called GDP and the right kind of growth. Right kind of growth is sustainable in the long term and is not dependant on other countries whims and fancies. That growth is based on processes, for example meritocracy in the education system. Young guys coming up with new ideas and creating a new product or improving upon the existing product by innovation.Another example would be to improve the seed quality or irrigation system for agriculture wherin it is not so much dependant on monsoon anymore, . That would be the right kind of growth even if slow rather than chinese style where u can grow fast for a short time than run into serious problems because the growth is not the right kind I think.

[NRao]

For Indo-US trade to increase American companies need to see some value. I was talking to a friend of mine last night, who works for Alcatel-Lucent and he mentioned that countries like Russia, Bulgaria, Philippines, etc are far better than India right now - cheaper and quality is better. Point being India has to become more competitive - especially in infrastructure, electricity, etc.

The current embrace is only in defense, that too it is heavily skewed towards collaboration in operations.

[Muppalla]

See if those in West coast can attend this meet:

http://www.eventbrite.com/e/fiids-dinne ... 6121763899

FIIDS Dinner Talk on "Contemporary Indo-US Relations & World" Amb. Parthasarathy : India's ex-spokeperson of MEA & PMO
Foundation for India and Indian Diaspora Studies (FIIDS)
Tuesday, June 21, 2016 from 6:30 PM to 8:00 PM (PDT)
Sunnyvale, CA

[NRao]

Not familiar with the wind tunnel problems, but.....

Meanwhile, any decision to order more new C-17s (by exercising the options clause for six more) will however be concomitant on the willingness of American majors to discharge standard offset requirements. At the moment the Americans have not been able to show the desired level of commitment to meet offset obligations.

No vendor is obligated to participate in an offset program IF the deal is FMS based. FMS is a gov to gov agreement and nothing to do with any vendor and the GOTUS does not and will not agree to an offset program, because GOTUS *cannot*, not possible.

I suspect the Boeing "offset" is Boeing's decision. No part of the C-17 deal (the deal being between the two govs).

GoI had the option to negotiate with Boeing but preferred the FMS route.

Jha is not right in that blog.

[Austin]

Washington denies India access to FBI's terrorist-related investigation information

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 95394.html

[Manish_Sharma]

Not familiar with the wind tunnel problems, but.....

No vendor is obligated to participate in an offset program IF the deal is FMS based. FMS is a gov to gov agreement and nothing to do with any vendor and the GOTUS does not and will not agree to an offset program, because GOTUS *cannot*, not possible.

I suspect the Boeing "offset" is Boeing's decision. No part of the C-17 deal (the deal being between the two govs).

GoI had the option to negotiate with Boeing but preferred the FMS route.

Jha is not right in that blog.

Aren't 50% offset being a condition 36 rafale FMS govt to govt deal? In what way c-17 deal different?

[Manish_Sharma]

Washington denies India access to FBI's terrorist-related investigation information

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 95394.html

Found it finally:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... c#p1190532

arun wrote:

X posted from the India-US Strategic News and Discussions thread.

Josy Joseph writing in TOI reveals that declassified Indian documents shown that US hostility to India during the 1971 war with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan was more intense than previously disclosed:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 625404.cms

svinayak wrote:

Need to understand this more and discuss this more.
Pakistan behavior is monitored and also its foreign policy is under the scanner of US policymakers and US military establishment(Ayub Khan). That is one of the reason the Pak ruling elite turns to its military very often.

The wars waged by Pakistan (atleast 65 , possible 48, likely 99) was war gamed by US military and they do some scenario planning.

If the Pakistan behavior goes out of hand or they overstretch and fumble during war , the US establishment will take the risk to protect them by attacking India or reducing the war making abilities of India (spare shortage)

Karl Indufurth State dept official even made a statement to the effect in 2001 that US will back Pakistan during a war with India.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_poin ... 511473.stm

The team for scenarios was from reagen, older bush, clinton admins and how they unanimously decide to attack only Bharat.

Not a single time there is a mention of attacking porkis.

How inderfurth gives reason that they have to attack Bharat because of lives of 20,000 amrikans are endangered, that too when clearly porkis are the instigaters.

These people are being accommodated for lemoa. If Bharat once refused after signing they'll start sanctioning arm twisting like anything.

[ramana]

Washington denies India access to FBI's terrorist-related investigation information

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/inte ... 95394.html

List is probably full of Pakistan and David Headley type miscreants.

[SSridhar]

No vendor is obligated to participate in an offset program IF the deal is FMS based. FMS is a gov to gov agreement and nothing to do with any vendor and the GOTUS does not and will not agree to an offset program, because GOTUS *cannot*, not possible.

I suspect the Boeing "offset" is Boeing's decision. No part of the C-17 deal (the deal being between the two govs).

GoI had the option to negotiate with Boeing but preferred the FMS route.

That is not entirely true. Read this to understand the process.

Even though offsets are applicable to FMS deals as well, the US government follows a hands-off policy with regard to offsets provisions. A buyer country has to negotiate a separate offset agreement directly with the prime contractor. Implementation of such an offset agreement remains a matter between the buyer country and the contractor, while the US government accepts no responsibility for its enforcement.

As the main contract and offset contracts get delinked, the buyer country has no leverage to ensure fulfillment of offset obligations. In a normal commercial deal, failure to implement an offset programme as per the contracted schedule can invoke imposition of penalties. In the case of FMS deals, payments are made to the US government and, hence, cannot be withheld.

[nirav]

Think it's appropriate to tone down viewing the US from Karl Inderfurths views .

'71 saw the 7th fleet in Bay of Bengal, '99 saw no action, 2002 reportedly saw some CAPs off Arabian sea..

Need to stop the shivering that US will "attack us" if bakis attack us !

The idea is outrageous and preposterous.
Bakis are delusional, have been so historically, Americans are not.

Attacking India military would be the stupidest thing they could ever do. It would permanently push India into the eastern camp.
India Russia and China could be very powerful allies.

But what could happen is just speculation based on silly options of US "attacking" India.
Not happening.

[NRao]

Aren't 50% offset being a condition 36 rafale FMS govt to govt deal? In what way c-17 deal different?

The C-17 (and IIRC all other deals with the US) is an FMS deals - Indian MoD to US DoD agreements, where the US DoD negotiates a price with the vendor, communicates that price to the Indian MoD and keeps (I forget what) some %age as processing fee. FMS is a US government instrument and does NOT subscribe to "offset".

But you are absolutely right on the Rafale. However, I think a better product to follow would be the Scorpion.

That is not entirely true. Read this to understand the process.

Even though offsets are applicable to FMS deals as well, the US government follows a hands-off policy with regard to offsets provisions. A buyer country has to negotiate a separate offset agreement directly with the prime contractor. Implementation of such an offset agreement remains a matter between the buyer country and the contractor, while the US government accepts no responsibility for its enforcement.

As the main contract and offset contracts get delinked, the buyer country has no leverage to ensure fulfillment of offset obligations. In a normal commercial deal, failure to implement an offset programme as per the contracted schedule can invoke imposition of penalties. In the case of FMS deals, payments are made to the US government and, hence, cannot be withheld.

Well, he says exactly what I said, except that he is saying it from an Indian PoV.

So, I just do not see the validity in his very first bolded statement: "offsets are applicable to FMS deals as well". From an FMS PoV, nope, they are not (which he too says). His statement "offsets are applicable to FMS deals as well" sets some expectations where none should be. As he says, "delink" the two (FMS (C-17) and offset (Wind tunnel)) and you then have a clearer picture. Was the wind tunnel experience bad, absolutely (not familiar with any details, so assuming the posts in this thread). How does it relate to the C-17 deal - it has nothing to do with AT ALL.





However, IIRC, the problems - and the C-17/wind tunnel does not seem to the be the first one - lead to poorly written contracts, where Indians had certain expectations, which did not reflect in the contract and as a result the ToT/offset did not meet Indian needs. The first one I recall was the ToT for the MKI. Where the topic of interest was the SCB. As I recall Indians wanted to use that tech in Indian projects, but the contract (written as it was) did not allow for such pollination. ??????? Right?

Coming back to Boeing. Even in a poorly written contract there is a spirit to such a contract an done *must* follow that spirit as closely as possible. If that spirit was broken, then shame on Boeing.



As I said above in this post: Scorpion. Check it out and see how the "offset"s are being implemented. I bet they will be far better than the ones for the MKI - C-17 era. Better negotiations and contracts.

Also, I thought I read that the French were not willing to part with come radar techs (despite their assurances in the press that they would). Good. This is where Indian expectations are being negotiated and because offsets may not meet the Indian requirements/expectations we just may see the original product not be bought. Clearly from an Indian PoV, it is NOT just the product (say Rafale), it is the product + the offset. IF either does not pan out, the whole deal would be squashed.

The C-17 is a very good learning experience. Just need to make sure that India gets what she wants.



BTW: 2011 :: MoD flouts offset rules, favours foreign vendors.

Perplexing.