Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 25 Jun 2016 21:25

What I am hoping Brahmos (or its hypersonic successor) can become is an "airborne boost-phase intercept missile". To take out Paki nuke-tipped ballistic missiles.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jun 2016 22:21

malushahi wrote:
Karan M wrote:this might well be what DRDO is planning for a NGARM.
per reports it has both a passive seeker and a MMW seeker.
is there any stand-off arm (similar to agm-88) in development too?

that's the NGARM - next generation ARM mentioned above.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 327616.ece

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jun 2016 22:22

a correction to the report would be that's its most likely got a dual pulse solid motor based on astra.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 25 Jun 2016 23:58

Karan M wrote:that's the NGARM - next generation ARM mentioned above.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 327616.ece

my mistake, should have clarified.

standoff is subjective term that depends on the adversary's ad-bubble. ngarm's advertised range is 60kms, which is quite sufficient to neutralize a pechora-like system, and is evenly matched to an early-to-mid-version grumble-like system. however, it is clearly not enough of a stand-off to ensure a successful fire-and-scoot against an advanced ad system with brochure target range of ~400kms @M14.0. agm-88's advertised range is 150kms @M2.0, clearly a far more survivable option against such advanced ad systems. do we have any such equivalent in the works? my original question about brahmos' air-launched version was on this line of thought.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Jun 2016 00:07

There is a lot to Stand Off Seed then just having kinematic range on your weapon. The Prowler couldn't exploit the maximum kinematic range of its weapon, the Growler could (of the same weapon), and can absorb another 50% range increase over the AGM-88E (The AARGM-ER). Its often not the maximum kinematics of your weapon limiting you kill distance. Just like any dynamic targeting, the longer the range, the more complicated the kill chain.

Hypothetically, you could design a large, broadband/wideband Passive RF seeker for the Brahmos, but it would be an overkill given the load out, its size, weight and performance (and cost). You wouldn’t be launching it form its max range and you wouldn’t be able to carry as many per sortie which is important for SEAD, but also if there are discriminating challenges in the presence of emitting decoys (magazine depth makes a difference). Ideally you would want your DEAD asset to carry at least 2-4 missiles per sortie if suppression (Stand of Jamming) is not available.

When you go into the 200+ km range, you better have very high degree of mismatch between your ability to find and fix an emitter and your opponents ability to deny you, otherwise you end up wasting money on a weapon that you may not be able to realize the full potential of. With long range ARM capability, you are better off getting something that could loiter and has the autonomy and the networking potential to deploy to pop up targets sort of like the USN’s LRASM or the much more capable JASSM-XR (1800km) with a LRASM seeker. That is beyond the cutting edge for now (plus you’d have to shed ALCM’s because of START) primarily because there are cheaper ways to do this mission (that could change).

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 26 Jun 2016 01:57

^^^ that nails it brar. crisp and comprehensive. thanks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jun 2016 04:05

Wonder what trajectory is planned for Brahmos?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 26 Jun 2016 06:17

rohitvats wrote:
Arun Menon wrote:The question is how many foreign missiles can do what IA asked for.
The comment above is a classic example of reaction on BRF whenever some genuine report emerges about performance short-fall in a domestic product. Never mind the fact Indian R&D establishment was working on these goals from Day 01 and it has got nothing to do with what foreign products can or cannot do.

BTW - here is a counter question to you: Which foreign missile has IA asked for in this (NAG) category?

Cute, answering a question with another one. Comes in handy when you don't have the answer. You must be proud to have Rahul baba in your company.

Sorry, but not falling for this trick. Come back with real answers.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 26 Jun 2016 10:51

My guess:-

Indian NGARM will be KH-31 type missile with Range of 250km+

Brahmos A will be configured as ARM missile also and will have range of 1000km+.

AWACS will be able to act as ELINT platform to guide land launched Shaurya missiles with range of 2500km

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 26 Jun 2016 13:42

Livefist ‏@livefist · 3h3 hours ago

The IAF wants 42 Su-30 MKIs modified to deploy the BrahMos-A. Also, some radar work likely ahead to exploit the missile's stand-off range.

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 26 Jun 2016 15:45

^^^ Some how I never got this fascination with no.s close to 40; 40 Super Sukhois, 36 Rafales, and then 42 such Su

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Jun 2016 16:24

ranjan.rao wrote:^^^ Some how I never got this fascination with no.s close to 40; 40 Super Sukhois, 36 Rafales, and then 42 such Su

2 squadrons!

member_27581 · Post by **member_27581** » 26 Jun 2016 16:38

^^JTull Thanks....I was always thinking on these lines ...but then why always 40? why not 3 or 4 ....

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 26 Jun 2016 17:30

ANI ‏@ANI_news · 5h5 hours ago

On Monday (27th June) we are going to become full members of MTCR: Vikas Swarup, MEA Spokesperson

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jun 2016 21:02

Arun Menon wrote: Cute, answering a question with another one. Comes in handy when you don't have the answer. You must be proud to have Rahul baba in your company. Sorry, but not falling for this trick. Come back with real answers.

Just when you think the discussion on military forum can't fall any lower, you manage to dig deeper! Congrats for taking the discussion to a completely new level.

As for 'not falling for the trick' bit - well, in case you knew the answer, you'd not have made the original comment itself. Which was in-line with glorious tradition of your posting credentials on military forum.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 26 Jun 2016 21:22

Kanson wrote: News is not new sir. In fact earlier reports mentioned the same problem. Only those whose has poor understanding of the subject like rohitvat's observation above, says it is "new". Only added fact is DRDO Chief mentioned the time period (i.e., between 11 a.m. to 3 p.m.). That is the only new thing.

You should have made a little bit more effort to read my post to understand what I said. First, the post was NOT about the issue(s) facing the NAG missile. But about the details of this issue. And how severe the issue is.

Till data, the articles have talked about targeting problem in peak summer season or during the hottest part of the day. And w/o knowing the extant of this issue, we've had geniuses on BRF questioning the need for fighting during this period! It is only now that the someone from DRDO has made plain the issue. And I hope people on BRF now stop passing comments about army playing truant with the missile.

Just to reiterate, this decrease is only for Phase-I, Phase-II is supposed to be meeting all requirements. As I see it, they still need time to work with new (Sofradir) seeker array, that's why Phase-II and they are requesting for acceptance of Nag with earlier seeker which met targets at reduced range or something like that.

The situation might actually be somewhat different.

Here is a 2012 report by Ajai Shukla which came about when NAG was having problem in differentiating target beyond 2.5 km. The Sofradir FPA was proposed then to help alleviate the issue.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 004_1.html

Dr Avinash Chander, the DRDO’s missile chief, told Business Standard, “Even in the worst conditions, the Nag is 100 per cent accurate out to 2.5 kilometres. Except when the temperature is really high, it is also accurate at four kilometres. By the year-end, we will develop a seeker with higher resolution, which will be accurate at four kilometres in any conditions.

The DRDO, for whom this is a prestigious project, says that the Hyderabad-based laboratory, Research Centre Imarat (RCI), will soon develop a seeker that can work through the hottest desert temperatures. This will feature an improved Focal Plane Array (FPA), a detector on the missile tip that picks up the target’s infrared signal. Since the DRDO’s own FPA programme is still at an early stage, the Nag’s improved FPA will be supplied by French company, Sofradir. RCI will integrate Sofradir’s FPA into an improved Nag seeker.

From the same 2012 report:

The DRDO’s unusual frankness in admitting a problem has been matched by the Army’s unusual helpfulness in working through it. The Army has decided to buy 13 Nag carriers (NAMICA, being developed by BEL and L&T), and 443 Nag missiles in the current state. These will be deployed in areas like Punjab, where close-set villages, groves and electricity transmission cables seldom permit visibility beyond 2.5 kilometres. When the DRDO demonstrates improved performance with a better seeker, a larger order will follow.

“This is a top-class missile in every respect except for this problem. While we must have a range of four kilometres for the open desert, the reduced 2.5 kilometre range is acceptable for developed terrain like the Punjab. We will buy 13 Nag carriers and use these to familiarise ourselves with the system. And, in Phase II, we will order the four kilometre missile in bulk quantities,” says a top general who decides such contracts.

It seems the above plan for purchase of NAG with 2.5 km range got modified to purchasing it with new Sofradir FPA.

Here is another recent report from TOI. The negative headline notwithstanding, it has a useful data-point.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 861117.cms

Interestingly, ambitious plans were underway to bestow this all weather missile with an unparalleled capability of detecting and hitting the targets with a very low thermal contrast vis-a-vis surroundings to the tune of a mere 0.2 degree Celsius. This work of developing High Resolution Imaging Infra Red Seekers as per the demand projected by the Indian Army was entrusted to Research Centre Imarat (RCI), a Hyderabad based DRDO lab.

So, Phase 2 of development encompasses development of indigenous seeker with the required performance. And Phase 1 relaxation for specific use case has been requested with foreign FPA.

The way I see it, we're going through the final pangs of user-trials. If the tests happen on time (the TOI reports talks of motor problem postponing summer trials), the missile should see production in 2017-18 time-frame.

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 27 Jun 2016 06:09

rohitvats wrote:The way I see it, we're going through the final pangs of user-trials. If the tests happen on time (the TOI reports talks of motor problem postponing summer trials), the missile should see production in 2017-18 time-frame.

Hope that is true, but given the history IA has with Arjun, pardon one's skepticism in this regard.

Besides what is the motor problem, is it the rocket motor? The news report only mentioned a motor problem of the "test object." Is that the rocket or the vehicle (BMP-2)?

BharadwajV · Post by **BharadwajV** » 27 Jun 2016 19:20

Aditya G wrote:Note no Serial number visible Su-tees. So HAL has hidden which batch was modified for this.

You have spoken too soon, Saar!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2016 21:04

Nirbhay project has gone all quiet despite ready availability of COTS saturn engines we signed deal for...

thats another urgent candidate to pass tests and get qualified for all 3 services.

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 27 Jun 2016 21:45

Nirbhay, Prahaar, A-5 launch (canister), 155mm guns all are important and left to be qualifird. Not to mention Rustom-II and other UAV's

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jun 2016 21:59

ADE, in general has to stand up. Rustom, Nishant and Nirbhay are all housed there, and struggling.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jun 2016 22:02

Mean while Ajai Shukla reports: Brahmos missile flies on Sukhoi-30, IAF moves towards deadly new capability

With the successful test flight on Saturday of a Sukhoi-30MKI fighter fitted with a Brahmos cruise missile, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has moved closer to a potent new capability.

When the Indo-Russian Brahmos is operationalized on the Su-30MKI, IAF pilots would no longer have to fly deep into heavily defended airspace to strike enemy fighter bases, or targets like terrorist camps, nuclear installations and military headquarters. Instead, they can launch a Brahmos from as far away as 295 kilometres, and turn back to safety while the missile flies on to do the destruction.

Business Standard learns the IAF will modify at least 40 Su-30MKI fighters to carry the Brahmos missile.

Air-launched land-attack missiles are not new, nor are cruise missiles like the vaunted US Tomahawk missile, that can be launched from thousands of kilometres away. What makes the Brahmos-Su-30MKI combination lethal is the speed with which it strikes --- the aircraft flies well above Mach 2, and the missile flies at Mach 2.8, giving enemy air defences little chance to detect and shoot them down before they strike the target.

Besides eliminating the need for taking a human pilot over heavily defended targets, the Brahmos has also proven to be a highly accurate missile. For the IAF, getting Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) --- which builds the Su-30MKI under licence at Nashik --- to integrate the aircraft with missile has been a priority.

On instructions from Air Headquarters, Sukhoi (in Russia) and HAL (in India) independently conducted feasibility studies. After the IAF determined that HAL had evolved the simpler, most manageable, design, it placed an order on HAL in January 2014 to integrate the Brahmos onto the Su-30MKI.

“It is a perfect example of ‘Make in India’ and an engineering marvel in aviation history of India. It proves that when all agencies come together with one mission, there is nothing like impossible”, declared the HAL chief, T Suvarna Raju, after the flight test today.

Business Standard was granted exclusive access to the Brahmos upgrade, while HAL was carrying it out at a facility called the Aircraft Upgrade R&D Centre (AURDC) in Nashik.

The AURDC had earlier upgraded the MiG-27 and MiG-21 fighters, partnering a Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratory called the Defence Avionics Research Agency (DARE). Along with DARE, the Indian Institute of Technology, Mumbai, also played a part in the Brahmos upgrade.

A key challenge was to strengthen the Su-30MKI airframe, particularly its underbelly weapons station, to carry the huge Brahmos missile (8 metres long, 0.7 metres in diameter, and 2560 kilogrammes in weight).

Since the Brahmos protrudes beyond the Su-30MKI’s air intakes, it was imperative to ascertain that it did not impede the flow of air into the fighter’s engines. This was achieved through computational fluid dynamics modeling.

Meanwhile DARE modified the pilots’ digital cockpit display, creating a new “page” that the pilots would use while launching the Brahmos.

Having established that the Su-30MKI can carry the Brahmos in flight, the IAF will now carry out flight-testing to determine the penalty such a bulky external load imposes on flight parameters like speed and turn performance.

After that, the IAF will actually fire the Brahmos from the aircraft, ensuring that the missile separates from the fighter smoothly. This phase of testing will also check how accurately the Brahmos hits its target.

The Su-30MKI is already a highly modified aircraft, with HAL having carried out more than 40 modifications to the fighter originally delivered by Russia. It is expected that countries like Malaysia, which fly a similar version of the Su-30, could also seek the Brahmos capability.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Jun 2016 22:20

Gagan wrote:HAL is modifying 40 MKIs to carry B'mos. Are these SFC MKIs?

Normal Su-30 have two centerline hardpoints as shown here

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 12AAMs.jpg

The last 40/42 (of which 2 are attrition replacements) have strengthened airframe with a single centerline hardpoint capable of carrying Brahmos. Check out the massive Brahmos pylon adaptor here compared to the height of the man. Also check the two attachment points where the airframe would need strengthening.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... KS2009.jpg

There are and will be no dedicated SFC MKI. However, since these 40 aircraft can carry heavier missiles than "normal" Su-30MKI, they will undertake nuclear delivery roles. That does not mean they cannot carry out "normal" roles.

And nuclear or Brahmos delivery will be a small subset of the roles they'll play over their lifetime.

Just like No 2 Sq when flying MiG-27 had a maritime role, however, that did not mean they stopped carrying out "normal" ground interdiction roles.

The Mirage 2000 and Jaguar too have a large centerline hardpoint, however, the Jaguar could not carry the heavy and bulky first generation nuclear weapons and only Mirage 2000 has a nuclear delivery role

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h86AdEYmF6s/T ... 5_1280.JPG

member_28656 · Post by **member_28656** » 28 Jun 2016 05:49

Can Nirbhay be air launched from Su30MKI ?

From Wiki:

Brahmos:
Weight 3,000 kg (6,600 lb)
2,500 kg (5,500 lb) (air-launched)
Length 8.4 m (28 ft)
Diameter 0.6 m (2.0 ft)
Warhead 200 kg (440 lb) conventional semi-armour-piercing and nuclear[2][3]

Nirbhay:
Weight 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb)[3]
Length 6 m (20 ft)
Diameter 0.52 m (1.7 ft)
Warhead conventional or nuclear

Or was that part of the plan and I missed it?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Jun 2016 06:33

tsarkar wrote:
Gagan wrote:HAL is modifying 40 MKIs to carry B'mos. Are these SFC MKIs?
Normal Su-30 have two centerline hardpoints as shown here

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 12AAMs.jpg

The last 40/42 (of which 2 are attrition replacements) have strengthened airframe with a single centerline hardpoint capable of carrying Brahmos. Check out the massive Brahmos pylon adaptor here compared to the height of the man. Also check the two attachment points where the airframe would need strengthening.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... KS2009.jpg

There are and will be no dedicated SFC MKI. However, since these 40 aircraft can carry heavier missiles than "normal" Su-30MKI, they will undertake nuclear delivery roles. That does not mean they cannot carry out "normal" roles.

And nuclear or Brahmos delivery will be a small subset of the roles they'll play over their lifetime.

Just like No 2 Sq when flying MiG-27 had a maritime role, however, that did not mean they stopped carrying out "normal" ground interdiction roles.

The Mirage 2000 and Jaguar too have a large centerline hardpoint, however, the Jaguar could not carry the heavy and bulky first generation nuclear weapons and only Mirage 2000 has a nuclear delivery role

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h86AdEYmF6s/T ... 5_1280.JPG

That pylon was Russian in design. One we developed a bit different, hence it took a while to develop/certify/test.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xd3Bjr3r2xM/U ... 734004.JPG

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Jun 2016 06:36

indranilroy wrote:ADE, in general has to stand up. Rustom, Nishant and Nirbhay are all housed there, and struggling.

First nail in Rustom's coffin already struck:

[/Within days of Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to Washington this month, and India's entry into Missile Technology Control Regime backed by President Barack Obama, New Delhi has sought to buy Predator drones from US-based General Atomics through the Foreign Military Sales program.

The letter of Request (LoR) for purchase of 22 of the unmanned aircraft for the Indian Navy was sent to US June 17, an official of the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) said.

So, the IN is going to be the operator in India or will IAF , IA, ARC order their own sets?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Jun 2016 07:28

Given our vast coastline and proximity to important Sea Lanes of Communication, it makes ample sense for IN to operate a decent sized fleet of long range UAV. It will help to keep tab on the movement in our area of interest and manned assets like P-8 can come in when a closer look is required along with 'intervention'.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jun 2016 09:31

yes nirbhay is definitely capable of air launch atleast from the MKI - might be able to carry 3 of them.
but primarily they will be ground and sea launched I think.

member_28656 · Post by **member_28656** » 28 Jun 2016 12:48

Sure, majority would probably be ground/naval launched. But imagine having a few air launch capable missiles, enemies wouldnt know where to keep an eye on, looking for launches or the direction from which the attach could come from and the increase in range (i.e. Su30MKI range + Nirbhay range: ~4000kms).

An (SFC/black ops?) Su30MKI with extra fuel tanks and one Nirbhay could take off from our south west coast, drop the missile @ SW of PK and head back to the base safely with IFR while the dropped missile could enter the enemy airspace from their western border and take out the target (whatever that is). They wouldnt know what hit them from where. Their radar tracking (if they do have one) will show something flying in from west. Satellite trackers for possible missile launches might not detect any if it is just a air launched turbojet that got ignited some where in Arabian sea.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Jun 2016 21:29

Which Yahood-O Hanood Missile getting tested tomorrow in Desh?
Saurav Jha celebrating MTCR membership with Agni 5 Video
https://youtu.be/KnykStFQSKM?t=18

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Aug 2016 07:27

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 649625.cms
Drop trials of BrahMos missile from Sukhoi-30 in Pokhran from Aug 24

JODHPUR: Drop trials for the formidable supersonic cruise missile system BrahMos from Su-30 MKI aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) are slated from August 24-26 at the Pokhran firing range in Jaisalmer. These drop trials will pave way for the real fire of BrahMos from the Russian made Su-30 by November last week or December first week. In fact, drop trials shall be conducted against land target and a sea target by the month end.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 15 Aug 2016 07:41

Off late I am hearing Brahmos and nuclear capable again and again.... Is it just ddmitis or there is more than meets the eye

kit · Post by **kit** » 15 Aug 2016 17:44

maybe there are thermonuclear warheads developed esp for the Brahmos ?.. wonder when they would be mated in a war scenario ?

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 15 Aug 2016 18:09

^^but wasnt avoiding the N word the reason we decomissioned cost effective Prithvis to avoid any pretension of a Nuclear attack...also do we really have warheads of 200Kg range..esp the thermonuclear(unless i missed the hidden sarcasm)...

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Aug 2016 01:00

TBRL has put out a tender for the Fabrication of air frame assembly of something which looks very similar to a Spice 2000 kit.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Aug 2016 01:12

DRDL has given out a tender on a Design and Fabrication of CG Fixture for QRSAM

From DRDO's Annual report, we know that the 2-vehicle configuration for carrying and firing the missile has also been completed. It can stop and shoot at multiple targets at once.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Aug 2016 04:12

In the DRDO 2015 Annual report details of Pralay, a Surface to Surface missile are given. Project authorized in March 2015.
The report is in html format. some one can post here would be nice.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 16 Aug 2016 05:33

https://blog.mygov.in/ebooks/drdo/DRDO_ ... ml#page/78

Sanctioned in 2015, emphasis on reliability. Configuration has been finalized, will have thrust vector control. Nothing on the nature of the weapon.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Aug 2016 11:23

Another pointer of great significance is the Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet technology for air launched tactical missile.

The state of art SFDR is a joint development project between DRDO and Russia. SFDR is designed with an advanced propulsion system having thrust modulation using hot gas flow controller. The missile is configured with reduced smoke nozzle-less booster, having a range of 120 km at 8 km altitude with a speed of 2.3-2.5M. Preliminary design documentation of the SFDR propulsion system has been completed. Wind tunnel testing of SFDR model was completed in October 2015.

This is the desi Meteor.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Aug 2016 11:24

Astra has been flight tested 8 times!