LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Jun 2016 19:42

Shiv ji, we - the good people of this thread - are all very eager to keep taxpayer money within the country as much as possible. Some folks here think the LCA can substitute for the Rafale, because quantity has its own quality, and that monies spent on expensive Rafales and mid-life upgrades (MLU) of the Mirage are A+ examples of scams.

tsarkar tried to explain why any MLU should be expected to be expensive - especially when it includes a new radar (RDY-2). As an analogy, the Kolkata class' ELTA radar is the single most expensive item on the ship. He cites the failure of the Trishul missiles 3-beam guidance and the failure of the LCA MMR, due to the lack of signal processing capabilities at the time, as examples of why radars can be expected to be expensive. The LCA MMR failure got two other posters dhoti shivering on the state of Indian radar processing algorithms.

Such dhoti shivering gets my goat - we have this thing called the DRDO AEWCS and the Uttam AESA. And we're thinking of buying a whole freaking A330 for the next airborne AESA because our algorithms work and not because we're still trying to play catch up with 1991.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 28 Jun 2016 19:57

I think discussion is going on a different tangent. Someone insinuated that the upgrade cost of a home grown fighter will be much lower then what we pay for a imported fighter. Idea that our forces paid more didn't sit well with some folks, and we might end up paying similar amount for LCA program in near future.

Radar development challenges were presented as an example why these upgrade costs might be higher then their original procurement cost of fighter itself.

Now coming back to comparing upgrade cost for home grown Vs imported ones, I will recommend the knowledgeable ones to compare USAF F-16/B-52 upgrade programs (or even Singapore AF F-16 Upg) instead of M2K or SHAR LUSH upgrades where we paid through our nose because of different issues.

Again since we don't know the specifics we will be comparing apples with oranges, but it gives a general idea what upgrade cost for in-house product will be.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 28 Jun 2016 20:14

LCA Tejas FB
From the archives of flight testing efforts..
LSP7 (KH-2017) seen here with a BVR (Derby), fired during the armament trials in FEB 2016 from the coast of Gujrat, signifying the capability of the aircraft towards operational requirements.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 28 Jun 2016 22:07

Sarkar sahab, please go into the millions of pages of discussions on the LCA and you will find that the MMR was successful in some modes and below expectations in some others and therefore the Israeli components/signal processing were incorporated for those modes.

And Sir ji, as for the cost of a pan in 1985 and the same in 2016, you are right about inflation. However look at the alternatives that were available then - cost of "new" MKIs vs upgraded avionics for M2Ks (no engine change and no airframe work). In essence more money was paid for avionics alone. One could have bought new build MKIs (of course you would say that MKI with heavier weight, lower availability and 2 man crew was in a different category) for the price of the upgrade of avionics plus weaponry.

I can understand that the IAF probably was justified in the MLU because it had to include the value of its investment of time in pilot training, pilot familiarity with the aircraft, maintenance crew familiarity and training on the type and logistics (spares inventory) etc. And since the aircraft has been a star performer, IAF relies on it for specific roles (which could be performed by MKIs, LCAs etc.).

I do not agree that the LCA MLU cost will escalate as much as the M2K upgrade cost. The Mig 29 upg included engine upgrades and cost $965 million (correct if wrong please) for 62 aircraft. In comparison 47 M2Ks are being upgraded for $2.2 billion (avionics) and $1 bilion (?? correct please) for weaponry.

The point is, the more you are susceptible (or the more leverage foreign suppliers have on you), the more you will end up paying. The emergence of a local industry with more than one player is a necessity. Somewhere down the road, HAL should be privatized and ADA should be setup as its competitor with Taneja Aerospace and NAL also encouraged to develop. We are also seeing Mahindras in this sector and Tata is tying up with Boeing to step into the field.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Jun 2016 23:32

In the picture above, how does the plane balance this loadout?
Assuming that that big huge external tank is full, won't the plane tend to list to the port side?
I assume the fly by wire software will keep one of the flaps slightly lowered to compensate

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jun 2016 00:02

^^^ Differential lift.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2016 00:36

https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htair ... 60723.aspx

Now the government will continue funding development of jet engine design and manufacturing capability, but with some unspecified changes.

There is much to be learned from all these development disasters. When work began on the Kaveri, in the mid-1980s, it was believed that the LCA would be ready for flight testing by 1990. A long list of technical delays put off that first flight until 2001. Corners had to be cut to make this happen.

our main concerns still remain.
- why restrict to 90kN (reuse issues?)
- if core reuse, why not yet integrated with existing LCA to get metrics [81kN wali]
- testing must be on the LCA platform
- time bound results

jahaju · Post by **jahaju** » 15 Aug 2016 01:11

3204th flight on 06 Aug

TD1 : 233 PV1: 245 PV3: 387 LSP1: 74 LSP3:278 LSP5: 293

TD2 : 305 PV2: 222 PV5: 134 LSP2: 314 LSP4: 216 LSP7: 176

NP1: 64 LSP8 : 156 PV6: 56 NP2: 51

previously pv5 flying as on 21/07/2016. currently lsp4

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 15 Aug 2016 02:17

Since BRF was out getting tan in summer, let me congratulate Tejas on joining the squadron service in July
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/t ... 795690.ece

A great day for our boffins who toiled fro years to make this day happen in real..and Tejas has been flying through Bhopal and then for Leh
http://idrw.org/tejas-lands-bhopal-takes-off-leh/

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 15 Aug 2016 03:14

Any update on when the third aircraft will be delivered to the LCA squadron? It was expected sometime in August.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 15 Aug 2016 05:23

Good to see BRF back in action.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Aug 2016 06:02

Welcome Back!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2016 06:16

just not miss the AK photos, here are the 50 pics of squad service joining

https://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2016/07/ ... right.html
coolest one: [tell me why it is SDRE?]

larger image
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TfD1x7aawCg/ ... 600/18.jpg

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 15 Aug 2016 11:00

While we were away...

LCA Tejas SP-3 LA5003 during the LCA Tejas Induction ceremony

First Image of LCA Tejas with Python AAM

Please visit the following link for more interesting photos
http://s611.photobucket.com/user/Vishnu ... t=3&page=1

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 15 Aug 2016 16:09

From FB:

SP3 will have her maiden flight around 3rd week of August. Quartz radome testing is going on. Derby is already fired and the envelope will be expanded. Gun trials will also be carried out shortly probably in September.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 15 Aug 2016 20:09

Firstly, many thanks to the BRF team that brought the site back. Appreciated.

Let's just say I am meeting somebody very close to the programme tomorrow AM IST for chai biskoot. No mama chacha or chaiwala. It's a one on one.

If you have any questions, I will try my best to get some answers. Needless to say, no classified stuff will be shared with me.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Aug 2016 20:18

ask about FOC is done done.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Aug 2016 20:56

FOC may not be possible by January though that is a timeline

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 15 Aug 2016 21:14

Nick_S wrote:

That's a beautiful shot. Brings out the profile very well. Infact, looking very very TFTA

..Kudos to the photographer !

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 15 Aug 2016 21:16

Hi Rahul,
I am curious to know, how they resolved the issue of air brakes ?
Additionally, what is the status of the improvised sleeker pylons ?

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 15 Aug 2016 21:21

Avinandan wrote:Hi Rahul,
I am curious to know, how they resolved the issue of air brakes ?
Additionally, what is the status of the improvised sleeker hard points ?

Please remind me, what exactly was the issue with air brakes ?

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 15 Aug 2016 21:27

There was a PDF report, where some inherent issues were mentioned.
The airbrakes are located only at the upper part (and not like F-16). This resulted in unwanted pitch up moment.
There were some discussions long back if the landing gear could be used to negate this. In the same report, sleeker hard points was also discussed. Let me try to search for it.

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 15 Aug 2016 22:06

There was something about LSP8 fitted with refuelling probe and ready for dry and wet trials. It was dated at end of July.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Aug 2016 22:11

The Cobham probe has been itnegrated into it(There were photos of this probe integrated into the airframe). Now they have to do a dry run without contact to see the effect of wakes and turbulence while flying near the refueling tanker followed by dry lockon of the probe with the drogue and then actual fuel transfer which requires rapid redistribution of fuel to maintain aerodynamic stability in the few seconds when fuel transfer occurs. Each step will be a challenge apart from the physical integration of the probe.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 15 Aug 2016 22:14

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 15 Aug 2016 23:06

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ercM1YMog6I

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 15 Aug 2016 23:14

Rahul please ask about which AESA radar is being planned for LCA Tejas (Indian or Israeli) and if there is any plan to integrate air to ground rockets and missiles

disha · Post by **disha** » 15 Aug 2016 23:48

Ask about the future of NLCA

dhiraj · Post by **dhiraj** » 15 Aug 2016 23:49

Rahul could you please check as to what is preventing HAL/ADA from having a first Tejas 1A version roll out by 2017. All the building blocks seems available. Any plans to have Saab for 1A. Will MK.2 ever be built now at least for IAF or just have a naval version Tejas with F414 engine ?

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 15 Aug 2016 23:52

As per Astra microwave conf call on Project Uttam (AESA RADAR FOR LCA)

Actually in DRDO, they have already made one radar prototype and is being tested in the field and probably they are going for two more radars to test the repeatability part of it and then they are going with the actual testing in the platform.

Any clarity on Project Uttam Radar will be fitted on the Tejas Mk-1 or it will be Israeli
Radar?
Management: No, as of today we are confident that DRDO Radar will go to the Tejas.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Aug 2016 05:30

Ramu wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ercM1YMog6I

that probe looks like mounted in the odd place

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 16 Aug 2016 06:41

rahulm, some questions from my side:

1. How is the production ramp up going?
2. What are the exact weight savings for Mk1A after rearranging internal components?
3. How's cobham integration and testing progressing?
4. Why delay in SP3/4?
5. will multi-missile racks be supported on pylons for LCA?
6. Is IAF still interested in LCA Mk-II?

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 16 Aug 2016 11:17

SaiK wrote:
Ramu wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ercM1YMog6I

that probe looks like mounted in the odd place

Good catch, SaiK Ji.

It's apparently the LCA probe being tested on a Jaguar.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ada-lca-tejas-mark-ii.45058/page-18

---------------

Correction: It seems like the double seater Jaguars IB have a nose mounted refueling probe. So the picture has nothing to do with LCA.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Aug 2016 21:59

I think we need to go for Mk2 as we need serious numbers also when it comes to China. To leave with Mk1A is a big waste of money already spent. Further AMCA may take some time and lot of fighters may have to retire before that. Mk2 will be a good solution at least as interim measure to keep the numbers up.

Who knows we may even export it to some of our friends like V'nam.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 16 Aug 2016 22:29

Had a great chai biskoot session. Will compile a short report and post in a few days.

Meanwhile, SP3 could roll out tomorrow or day after IOW its now a matter of days. One o the reasons for delay is not having developed a supply chain to produce at scale some components. Consequently, R&D labs are producing at low volume. Highest levels in babudom and Services are "sensitised" to the issue but .....

Ergo. if you want shade, you should have planted a tree 10 years ago.Efforts are being made to develop alternate supply chains but my sense after today, FWIW is its going to take more time than we would like. Hope, I am wrong.

The quartz vversus composite radome story is fascinating as is the air brake.

We might hear some good news from Leh soon.

Lots of positives, though.

5 x Sitara's looking lonely and unloved BUT a few spin tests completed.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Aug 2016 23:33

Looking forward to the report buddy!

disha · Post by **disha** » 17 Aug 2016 01:06

RahulM'ji ko ek room mein lock kar diya jaye., till the short report is posted!

rahulm wrote:Had a great chai biskoot session. Will compile a short report and post in a few days.

BTW, anything on NLCA?

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 17 Aug 2016 11:59

Typed from BLR airport. Here is Part 1

Current status: NP1 and NP2 are both in various stages of disassembly and undergoing major reconfiguration for next set of tests. Navy covers more test points per flight compared to AF hence longer down time between tests.

Braking: the aircraft uses Carbon brakes. Cold and hot performance are markedly different. Brake state was hidden and not readily available to Pilots. Now, MFD pages have been modified to display brake data for pilot to evaluate and make decisions. This has increased pilot autonomy and is an example of the end user helping shape the man manchine interface to suit requirements.

The Air-brake is slanted and due to its location experiences severe turbulent flow under certain flight regimes. Actual flight testing data including HD visuals from GoPro cameras installed has revealed turbulent flow which was overlayed with the flight regime.

It was discovered that in certain turbulence regimes, the air brake was fluttering/deploying leading to undesirable handling during certain flight regimes. The solution was to a) treat the air brake as a control surface and modify the control laws accordingly and b) create a different wing geometry for landing which when combined with the air brake deployment solved the fluttering and pitch up issue.

CFD analysis did not predict this behaviour.

Further, the air brake location has been changed to a more conventional location in Mk2.

A great illustration that there are no short cuts in testing and no amount of TOT or deep TOT will ever provide us such vital data. When we own the IP we have the expertise and capability to investigate and resolve issues.

Weight s(h)aving: There is an ongoing discussion about saving weight by removing the droque chute in a naval aircraft equipped with an arrestor hook versus retaining it as a back up. Pilots, naturally, prefer to retain it.

Landing gear: I was surprised by the level of instrumentation and telemetry in the landing gear. This thing is being studied extensively. There are gauges and sensors recording axial, shear etc loads. All are aware it is over designed and the general feeling is over time it will be redsigned.

There is a general feeling that even one accident or major incident will lead to program abandonment. Hence, the grinding path which annoys many jingos.

Man machine interface: Incidentally, pilot feedback has indicated that the man machine interface on the Tejas is the best of all aircraft in inventory and goes to show the excellent design fundamentals and robust end user-designer partnership

I have to board now so will type part 2 later in which I will,cover arrestor hook, radome, missile racks and radar.

I am not in a position to provide any specific data or parameters about brake temps, radar ranges etc so asking will only disappoint.

MODS please edit and delete any and all parts at will if you feel so inclined.

asinh · Post by **asinh** » 17 Aug 2016 12:08

Great to be back in the forum. Where else will one find such details. Thanks .

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 17 Aug 2016 12:19

Rahulm Ji, that was as joyous as a good cup of coffee. Looking forward to the next sip.