IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 17 Sep 2016 01:38

Are we getting the Scalp in this deal?Considering we are now into the MTCR,it shouldnot be an issue.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 17 Sep 2016 01:46

indranilroy wrote:Our own products are not ready yet. We have to make them ready. There is no other sustainable solution for us. We are getting there in missiles, ships, helicopters, space vehicles, radars. In all the above, we have accepted good solutions, not the best available "western" solution. If we continue on the current trajectories for the next 10-15 years, we will be there.

Aside: The govt. will pander to the popular demand. So be careful of what you demand or support, because you will get it.

Popular demand should be to double our strength across all services to counter both TSP and PRC.Fix Defence budget at 5% of GDP.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Sep 2016 02:45

Amoghvarsha wrote: If we consider the PLAAF and PAF,the best we can encounter are SU-35 and F 16s ,ay be the J 10 bs(Dont know how capable they are).Shouldnt a lower number of Rafales suffice for that threat considering that we have close to 300 MKIs(Not counting the S30) and then upgraded M2000s and MIG 29 UPG.Do we really need the Rafales to be the same number as the retiring fighters?Not go as low as the French but some what lower.

Secondly what do you believe the 52 Squadrons be made of?Which fighters and what numbers?

Considering that we are nowhere near to building a aircraft of Rafales quality,what do you suggest we would have done?Gone for the EFs?or the Unkil planes? The AMCA,The PAK FA none of them will be ready to be inducted at a short time frame as Rafale will be.

The question is simple. We are spending $ 8.75 billion. What are our options for this much money? Examples: fighters alone, with 30% overhead:
1. 153 LCAs (at 40 million a plane)
2. 75 Su-30s (at 80 million a plane)
3. 68 Su-35s (at 90 million a plane)
4. 36 Su-35s and 72 LCAs
5. 36 Rafales

I don't know. Make your call. I know little about airplanes, but I will not bet on the Rafales with a 1:2 numerical deficiency against Su-35s.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 17 Sep 2016 03:17

I pick #2. We do not need another type. We need more types so we can get economy of scales. We can always upgrade Su-30s with better avionics and engines but keep the airframe and parts the same.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 17 Sep 2016 03:38

^^^ You forgot the Qatari/Greek/Taiwanese Mirages that could be bought as the discussion always seems to veer to.

We focus too much on what planes and too little little on our strategy. This whole thing about a 2-front war and 45-54 squadrons of Light/Medium/Heavy/Plus/Obese is ridiculous. We need to have an AF that will be able to deliver our strategic goals.

Defining these strategic goals is the first step. No way we are going to fight a 2 front war with the Pakis AND the PRC at the same time. We could not win a conventional war with the PRC and while we could do so with the Pakis, it would soon turn nuclear.

We don't need any more than the SU30MKIs to destroy Pakistan if supported by AWACS. 1000 Nirbhays and Prithvis can destroy paki war making capability on day1 along with any missiles from SSNs/SSGNS we could employ.

Managing the PRC involves alliances. Too late, we cannot match their economy to take them on 1 on 1.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 17 Sep 2016 04:03

what is the point of 36 fighters for 9 billions. Are Rafale's more capable than F-22. It is better to invest them on Submarines, 2nd hand Mirage-2000's, A few Su-35's and then hundreds of self propelled artillery guns, we dont even have enough artillery.

It is better to acquire meteor missiles and Air to surface missiles rather than Rafales. The missiles are more important than the platforms.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 17 Sep 2016 04:41

no 4. capability and also support own industry. Su-35 similar to su-30 but more advanced version.

Paarth · Post by **Paarth** » 17 Sep 2016 05:07

get over it friends

, most of us have almost no real world expertise to comment on IAF/Govt. decision to buy 36 Rafales over xyz,
all I can say is Rafale was the pick of MRCA both from technical evaluations done and political considerations, also Rafale was called Rambha by
BRakshaks

and was favorite before the decision.
Getting Su-35 makes no sense as everything Russia now sells to India is being produced by chinese with our russian friends help.
Same story will be repeated for PAK FA whatever the edge PAK FA will be holding on chini stealth planes sooner or later the tech. will be sold
to china for right price. India should better align itself with Israel & Japan to put more life in AMCA rather than depending on russian planes
as russia will become a subservient power to china in coming time.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 17 Sep 2016 05:29

MaharathiArjun wrote:get over it friends , most of us have almost no real world expertise to comment on IAF/Govt. decision to buy 36 Rafales over xyz,
all I can say is Rafale was the pick of MRCA both from technical evaluations done and political considerations, also Rafale was called Rambha by
BRakshaks and was favorite before the decision.
Getting Su-35 makes no sense as everything Russia now sells to India is being produced by chinese with our russian friends help.
Same story will be repeated for PAK FA whatever the edge PAK FA will be holding on chini stealth planes sooner or later the tech. will be sold
to china for right price. India should better align itself with Israel & Japan to put more life in AMCA rather than depending on russian planes
as russia will become a subservient power to china in coming time.

SU 30 is Rambha

Rafale is Katrina.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Sep 2016 05:46

^ well said. Katrina is not Rambha. Katrina complements Rambha.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Sep 2016 09:15

Before months before NaMo became prime minister our poster Klaus ji had stated that during his visit to Delhi some high officials had said about the stuck-mmrca deal, that much less quantity of rafale may be bought split between airforce and navy.

So the idea may've been there before Modi-Parrikar took the reigns.

One lesson for high knowledge BRF posters is that instead of now expressing angst after the deal is almost done, better would have been that a team of you all could have written some essays, printed them on nice executive bond paper bound them nicely and sent 1 copy each to Defence Minister Parrikar, PMO and Amit Shah.

Even now its not too late write it, telling why manufacturing 450 Tejas Mk. 1 & 450 Tejas Mk. 2 later would propel Bharatvarsh in Big league, also about why beancounting needs to stop for AMCA, Kaveri and all other programmes.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 17 Sep 2016 10:33

Manish - It is an idea which I have been thinking for so long. I am sure there exists more BRFites like you and me.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Sep 2016 10:59

MaharathiArjun wrote:get over it friends , most of us have almost no real world expertise to comment on IAF/Govt. decision to buy 36 Rafales over xyz,
all I can say is Rafale was the pick of MRCA both from technical evaluations done and political considerations, also Rafale was called Rambha by
BRakshaks and was favorite before the decision.
Getting Su-35 makes no sense as everything Russia now sells to India is being produced by chinese with our russian friends help.
Same story will be repeated for PAK FA whatever the edge PAK FA will be holding on chini stealth planes sooner or later the tech. will be sold
to china for right price. India should better align itself with Israel & Japan to put more life in AMCA rather than depending on russian planes
as russia will become a subservient power to china in coming time.

Man, your replies get weirder by the hour. Till now your justifications have been the govt./IAF must be right, western planes are desperately required morale boosters, and Rafale is a cheap plane to maintain.

Would you care to answer if Rafale was the pick of the MMRCA, and nothing but EF/Rafale would do pass IAF's operational requirements, then why are F-16/F-18s/Gripens being reconsidered? Are you one who can't question?

asinh · Post by **asinh** » 17 Sep 2016 11:44

A very noob question. Does the Rafale have the better radar in terms of range, track while scanning as compared to the su30 and its Chinese siblings?

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 17 Sep 2016 12:41

asinh wrote:A very noob question. Does the Rafale have the better radar in terms of range, track while scanning as compared to the su30 and its Chinese siblings?

Well it depends. If it is the AESA RBE2, it is likely to have a very good overall performance compared to the BARS because of AESA and newer electronics & software, especially far more modes of operations. But the BARS, despite being older has one inherent advantage: A much larger antenna diameter than the RBE2 which means it is far more likely to be longer ranged. Having said that, Su30MKI does not have a reliable long ranged missile to exploit the longer range, the R77 is, from all accounts, not very reliable. So like all other things in life, radar range or peak power etc is only one dimension of Radar performance. The overall effectiveness of the entire platform needs to be looked at!

Nirvana2016 · Post by **Nirvana2016** » 17 Sep 2016 13:47

Can anyone put some light on the Rafale Passive detection range in a BVR combat...and let's say compare it with the detection capability of a SU35. I came across information that a Rafale with new AESA RBE2 can detect with active radar upto around 250 km only against a SU35 which can do much longer ranges upto 300plus km. But in passive mode it can detect without even the enemy knowing that it's being tracked. There is not much info. on this passive detecting range but if we take the kind of missiles and rockets on a rafale..may be we can find some comparison with R77 latest avatar for SU35. Any nice info. from the pros. will be much appreciated. Thanks

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 17 Sep 2016 14:35

saumitra_j wrote:
asinh wrote:A very noob question. Does the Rafale have the better radar in terms of range, track while scanning as compared to the su30 and its Chinese siblings?
Well it depends. If it is the AESA RBE2, it is likely to have a very good overall performance compared to the BARS because of AESA and newer electronics & software, especially far more modes of operations. But the BARS, despite being older has one inherent advantage: A much larger antenna diameter than the RBE2 which means it is far more likely to be longer ranged. Having said that, Su30MKI does not have a reliable long ranged missile to exploit the longer range, the R77 is, from all accounts, not very reliable. So like all other things in life, radar range or peak power etc is only one dimension of Radar performance. The overall effectiveness of the entire platform needs to be looked at!

Isnt the Su 35 radar supposed to be super duper and likely to be combined with Novator?

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 17 Sep 2016 15:04

Amoghvarsha wrote:Isnt the Su 35 radar supposed to be super duper and likely to be combined with Novator?

It's not that Su35s are operating in large numbers with RuAF..the Novator missile and the super duper radar (IRBIS E which BTW is a PESA) are far from being production ready!!

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 17 Sep 2016 18:16

saumitra_j wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:Isnt the Su 35 radar supposed to be super duper and likely to be combined with Novator?
It's not that Su35s are operating in large numbers with RuAF..the Novator missile and the super duper radar (IRBIS E which BTW is a PESA) are far from being production ready!!

There are around 50 Su 35s with RUaf and more on order.Cheenis have ordered 2 squadrons.Bakis may order as well.Highly unlikely that all this will happen without a production ready Radar and Missile.

The Novator is 300k plus range so wont go to Plaaf or Paf.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 17 Sep 2016 18:51

Why are we comparing the whole Rafale package cost of 8B, to the number of units of other planes in empty configuration. This ain't right.

What India is doing is to acquire additional technical capability with these acquisition, the leadership at the top is not all stupid. Hind sight is 20-20, but we make decision based on past experience and present danger. Tomorrow it may turn out to be right decision or wrong decision, history will tell. The uncertainly of future should not prevent us from making decisions today.

What we are discussing whether our choices matches with the decision of the govt. we all have our personal biases.

On second thought, I do not support or like second hand/used fighters in the market to fill the numbers, it will divert attention to make it to usable standard, and most of all even after that it may not be that useful, when IAF has doubts on plane like Tejas, which is close to cutting edge to the present fighters, second hand acquisition would be waste of resources, better to build additional capacity of LCA. Modification and upgrade twice the time than building the new ones, Admiral Gorskov is an example and you can find numerous such examples in your personal life. That is why we have use and through products now. Agree fighters are too costly for such ideas, You see most of this manufacturers just sticking with latest model, then supporting different versions that came in existence through upgrades. enough said.

I support F16/F18 to build numbers through private players. This will get us American weapon delivery platform, with that we will have platforms that could deliver most of the worlds weapon systems.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 17 Sep 2016 18:56

Agreed.Thats a scenario i hadnt envisioned.Does this also makes a case for India to finally have mutual defence treaties?

There is pros and cons to everything, Treaties are used for diplomatic and political tool. No one wants to over commit, and when push comes to shove, it has limited usability.

I would simply follow - Strength respect strength, all other band bajaa is when you are not there.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 17 Sep 2016 18:59

Do not support additional SU-3X, simply because of existing servicability and availability issues. We have tried Russian and European, lets try the big daddy of all, before we start thinking of trying chinese and pakis...

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 17 Sep 2016 19:04

Once you develop network centric and situational awareness system, all these small few miles mores, more TR numbers, few additional points, 10 additional horse powers will be mute. This is what F-35 is bringing on the table, and those countries that do not have this capability and still going for F-35 are heavily dependent on others. I would be careful going in these path.

Fortunately India has all the resources to create one and not dependent on anyone. Are we there yet, dont know. perhaps noob question, but better left it unanswered.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Sep 2016 20:13

Look at the title below. An old article from 2012 I presume. Make sure you use Google translate, as the original article is in German.

"Jai Katrina!" India Type choice falls on the, sexy 'Rafale from Dassault
http://www.airpower.at/news2012/0213_in ... index.html

Finally, something to loosen. Since the Spitfire pilots discuss yes and we how much better one, beautiful 'airplane has to be yet. But not only we. The Indian colleagues, bloggers and forum posters have the candidates given in MMRCA early appropriate nickname - derived from today's popular and coveted Indian Schaulspielerinnen and Models. And those who now even acquired 'official' acceptance. Rafale was whether their finely-balanced, sexy 'curves associated with the Indian supermodel Katrina Kaif. Katrina '- it takes a while to understand what in the heated discussion is the talk since - has thus, Kareena' beaten. So the Euro Fighter is called if the 'offensive' lips and - probably reminiscent of the great canards - bigger 'stem' of Bollywood action Schaulspielerin Kareena Kapoor. Meanwhile, the titling Katrina already found in the offcial language in Rafalenews-BlogSpot of Daussault input ...

saumitra_j · Post by **saumitra_j** » 17 Sep 2016 23:34

Amoghvarsha wrote:There are around 50 Su 35s with RUaf and more on order.Cheenis have ordered 2 squadrons.Bakis may order as well.Highly unlikely that all this will happen without a production ready Radar and Missile.

The Novator is 300k plus range so wont go to Plaaf or Paf.

As per Wiki, they have just about managed to get about 48 Su35S with IRBIS - E. Based on the time it takes for systems to mature, rest assured that full capabilities is years away. There is no Novator missile that I could find out - Su35s also use the same R77/R27s --- the KS172 or K100 is still under development apparently with Indian funds. Su35 is MKI without canards, a new engine and a new Radar. Just like BARS, the IRBIS cannot be exploited fully due to limitations of the BVR weapons. And there will not be much in common from a spares perspective given that engine, radar and airframe are all different! All in all, Su35 as an alternative for Rafale is an absolute NO - I would rather go with more MKIs!

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 18 Sep 2016 01:48

The two wasted opportunities that caused this whole mess were:

1. Not ordering 126 Mirage-2000-5 after Kargil during the ABV regime. The motives of the MoD Babus who decided that this could not be allowed as a follow-on order from a single vendor were highly suspect IMHO. The RM had been weakened post Tehelka, and could not override the bureaucracy.

2. In the early years of UPA-1, the deal to acquire Qatari Mirages was nixed at the final stage by, who else but ACM SP Tyagi. That man made one questionable decision after the other. How someone of low integrity like him made it to the ACM post, is very puzzling to me.

India has paid a huge cost in time, money, and preparedness, due to the above two decisions.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 18 Sep 2016 02:50

saumitra_j wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:There are around 50 Su 35s with RUaf and more on order.Cheenis have ordered 2 squadrons.Bakis may order as well.Highly unlikely that all this will happen without a production ready Radar and Missile.

The Novator is 300k plus range so wont go to Plaaf or Paf.
As per Wiki, they have just about managed to get about 48 Su35S with IRBIS - E. Based on the time it takes for systems to mature, rest assured that full capabilities is years away. There is no Novator missile that I could find out - Su35s also use the same R77/R27s --- the KS172 or K100 is still under development apparently with Indian funds. Su35 is MKI without canards, a new engine and a new Radar. Just like BARS, the IRBIS cannot be exploited fully due to limitations of the BVR weapons. And there will not be much in common from a spares perspective given that engine, radar and airframe are all different! All in all, Su35 as an alternative for Rafale is an absolute NO - I would rather go with more MKIs!

Novator 100 is pretty much in use.It wasnt revealed as India got it despite not being a MTCR signatory.May be PLAAF got it as well.

The IBRIS E is muc better radar than the BARS and the Engine is better ofcourse.

The SU 35 beats MKI hands down.Equals Rafale except for the RCS.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2016 03:26

NOVATOR in news? where, when how? here even our R77s dont work..brochure bashing more likely.
Irbis is a new radar. It took NIIP a decade and a half to fix Bars to IAF standards. In other words, it will be several years by the time its really ready even assuming PAKFA radar does not take away prime talent.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Sep 2016 05:28

Karan M wrote:here even our R77s dont work..

Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... t/490055/0

off topic...S-300 missile fail...but interesting videos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s77cqabHsM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XArPxYnRRM

Also, equally way off topic...but an interesting read about the R-77 missile (if true...a BIG if)

http://www.someonesbones.com/blog/russi ... -aircraft/

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 18 Sep 2016 05:41

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:here even our R77s dont work..
Nearly half of Russian air-to-air missiles with IAF have homing, ageing problems: CAG report
http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/n ... t/490055/0

off topic...S-300 missile fail...but interesting videos...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1s77cqabHsM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XArPxYnRRM

Also, equally way off topic...but an interesting read about the R-77 missile (if true...a BIG if)

http://www.someonesbones.com/blog/russi ... -aircraft/

So what are we going to fire?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 18 Sep 2016 06:35

Here is some explanation on why gthe GoI is signing this contract. Posting in full:

Behind Rafale deal: Their ‘strategic’ role in delivery of nuclear weapons

WITH INDIA and France expected to announce the Inter-Government Agreement (IGA) for Rafale fighter jets in the next few days, the clinching factor behind Delhi deciding to buy even only 36 French aircraft has become clearer. The long-delayed deal is being finalised because India has identified the French fighters for their ‘strategic’ role — to deliver nuclear weapons.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently has 32 fighter squadrons against an authorisation of 42, and many of them, particularly the MiGs, are reaching the end of their service in this decade. Thirty-six Rafales, to be inducted between 2019 and 2023, will make for only two squadrons. This still leaves a huge gap, to be filled by either the indigenous Tejas fighters, or another foreign fighter such as the Swedish Gripen or the American F-16, both of which have offered to ‘Make in India’.

Although there is a follow-up clause in the IGA for buying an additional 18 Rafales, the numbers still fall short of the 126 Rafales India had originally planned to buy under the previous UPA government.

According to officials who spoke to The Sunday Express on condition of anonymity, the deciding factor in buying the Rafales, even in such small numbers, was its ability “to be used as an airborne strategic delivery system”. In other words, Rafale is expected to be the chosen fighter plane for the delivery of nuclear weapons in a strike role.

“The French Air Force, Armee de l’ Air, is shifting from Mirages to Rafales for its nuclear strike role this year. They have already started the process, and although our nuclear delivery systems are different from theirs, it does tell us that Rafale is suited for that task,” said a defence official.

“The French Mirage-2000s have been modified for the delivery of our strategic arsenal. France has continued to provide maintenance, spares and technical support for these Mirages, which may not have been the case with some other foreign countries. We expect the same degree of cooperation from France when we modify and use the Rafales for that role,” said another official.
At present, IAF is supposed to use modified Mirage-2000 fighters in a nuclear strike role. But these upgraded Mirages are scheduled to be phased out of service from 2030 onwards. According to officials, a replacement for them would be needed, and India’s comfort with Paris on these matters makes it logical to go with Rafales for this critical task.

Meanwhile, sources have confirmed that India has extended an invite to the French defence minister, Jean Yves Le Drian, to visit Delhi next week. Although a formal confirmation from Paris was not received till Friday, the two sides are expected to announce the signing of an IGA for 36 Rafales next week.

Following a Cabinet Committee on Security approval, a contract, if things go as per schedule, should be signed within 45 days. An advance of 10-15 per cent of total contract value is expected to be paid to the French government at the signing of the contract.
During his visit to Paris last April, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters in a government-to-government deal with France. This followed a decade-long process of trials and selection of Rafales for the 126 Medium Multi Range Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender, which could not be concluded. The MMRCA tender was formally withdrawn by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar later last year.

India and France underwent a series of negotiations over the price of the 36 fighters, and the two sides agreed to a final price of about Euro 7.87 billion a few weeks ago. Although all the fighters will be made in France, Rafale will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal as offsets in India. The delivery of the first fighter aircraft is scheduled for 2019.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Sep 2016 07:10

Amoghvarsha wrote:So what are we going to fire?

With the other half of the R-77 batch that works

But in all seriousness, the IAF has to fight with what it has. What can be done if the Russian missiles are ageing way before their time?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Sep 2016 14:23

So Su 30mki engines conk out much before 1000 hours, ok IAF reduced the service time to 700 hours, problem persists.

The fuel tank too creates problem and mixes metal into the fuel.

Overall availability is 50%

Missiles are duds or ageing faster, though on paper they are ahead of western counterparts in range and speed.

How many 450?? are either Mig 21 or Mig 27 in IAF inventory.

It was mentioned that even after being in service for long when Mirages were brought to HAL they were amazed at the robustness of their airframes compared to russian or even jaguar jets.

So a package of 36 robust airframes which have specifications that are not just paper specification like russian missiles and jets are being acquired for IAF until Tejas and AMCA can start coming.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 18 Sep 2016 15:03

French fighters have always delivered for the country that purchased it..whether it was Mirage III in 1967 or M2K in Kargil. In 1971 war it was the Mirage III with PAF that was main source of headache for IAF. IAF by looking at the track record of performance of French fighters have justifiably plumped for Rafale.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Sep 2016 15:18

I wanted to answer quite a few good points raised here (Novator is not one of them). For example, I wanted to dispel the notion of how much more reliable the Frenchware are. About how immature quite a few French wares are: e.g. the Meteor, the radar. That Rafales are not required for nuclear weapons delivery. Justifying the purchase of Rafales for that is finding a problem for a solution. I Wanted to remind people about how wonderfully the IAF did with its good old Russian ware against the USAF. In the REd Flag exercise at Mountain home, the Rafales, although present did not even engage. They just surveyed the the air battles.

But not today. Today, I only want to mourn the departed at Uri.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Sep 2016 17:00

When Russians started their air campaign in Syria, my heart went out to them. Tchhh! I thought now their aircrafts are going to fall out of sky due to the inferiority of their tech. They don't have any air to air adversery and still their aircrafts will go down, the western media will mock them.

But as the campaign continued, day after day, week after week & month after month no russian aircraft fell out of sky.

Strange thing happened what was a sympathy for russians turned into anger for them slowly, how come our migs and sukhois keep crashing while russian ones don't?

The answer is simple, they supply 3rd rate stuff to us, don't respect the contracts, supply of parts is inadequate.

It can't be that IAF ground staff or HAL manufacturing is so inferior as to have that much of efficiency gap as "IAF crashes" vs "No Syrian campaign crash" with russians. Though a certain russia loving poster indicates in that direction indirectly many times.

Spanking new Mig 29k continue to show the great advances of russian technology in patheticness of sea wasp engines and fuel tanks falling of the fighter.

It seems IAF was ok to have a super expensive m2k upgrade + equally expensive weapons package from france.

Now all the reports are indicating that weapons package of Rafale is included in the price of 7.87 billions euros. Though why meteor is bought is a mystery as it was indicated before here that Rafale can't make use of full benefits from meteor like ef2k can as it has two way communication with meteor, while Rafale is single side.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2016 20:03

Manish, being the manufacturer they can stockpile more parts and probably spend more on spares.

If you see the revenue and capital budgets - under congress govt, both were declining constantly. The usual trick is to announce a great budget (spare come under revenue) and then return the money to finmin using pliant bureaucrats in MOD who hinder acquisition. And also use leverage on certain services, acquisition folks to announce and push for grandiose capital expenditure even while revenue budget is a mess.
Some platforms which were "first time" for russia end up being full of bugs which india ended up debugging. Su-30 is an example. Albeit successful to a degree. It can attain 70% plus rates, current is 60% (up from 50% when Parrikar came).

MiG-29K, T-90 are somewhat unsuccessful ones. T-90 can still be fixed if India manages the TI sight issue.

Regarding Su-30, the last holdout is its EW fit. The simpler answer there is to bypass DARE/complex multi-vendor fits and just take whatever works on that planform from Russia.

For those who asked what the answer for R77 non availability is - its Astra. That has to be the long term answer and even the short one, from next year.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Sep 2016 20:07

Coming to Meteor, Rafale etc - IMHO, yes silver bullets, but only to a degree. Against VLO threats, even Meteor will be challenged. Answer is to field more long range, non conventional band AWACS, radars, sensors and network centric targeting.
For the short term, yes, some 50 plus Rafales can give India some leeway in dealing with larger numbers of PLAAF Flankers but we should seriously continue to look at pushing higher Su-30 rates of mission readiness and also, the Super 30 upgrade and increase local programs for AAMs and PGMs. A few silver bullets alone cannot be sufficient. And right now we are not even getting 50+ Rafale but only 36 units.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Sep 2016 01:00

^Thanks Karan explained with full clarity and detail as usual.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 19 Sep 2016 01:27

If we divide Rafale deal between Su-30MKI, LCA, NIrbhay and Akash ie US$ 2 Billion each. We get around 20 Su, 40 LCA, 20 squadrons of Akash, 2000 Nirbhay missiles plus indigenisation and 100,000 Indian jobs per annum.