In response to the Uri Terrorist Attack...

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Sep 2016 21:54

Rudradev ji let us have a bet, you said what happened in Dec 1971 started in Dec in 1970. Today is 20-Sept-2016 I bet you that even after 21-Sept-2017 nothing comparable to what happened in 1971, like for example separation of Baluchistan from Pakistan or reclamation of our lost J&K territory will happen. Let us see if NM has the foresight to do what Indira Gandhi did in that next one year of 1970-71. Would you agree with my bet sir?

And about

Rudradev wrote: Let's go back to Sharm-el-Shaikh and Thimphu declarations, CBMs and demilitarizing Siachen and handing over Sir Creek. "Joint sovereignty" over J&K as was being discussed with Musharraf. Admitting, falsely, that we were involved in fomenting rebellion in Baluchistan to the same extent that Pakistan is involved in terrorism in J&K. Let's also throw in Hindu terrorism as the greatest threat to South Asia, Hindu terrorists bombed the Samjhauta Express, and everything else the UPA II asserted. Light-years ahead of where we are, surely.

This is where NM is going eventually. He has already lost the plot in J&K. He will very soon loose it in the east against PLA too with our depletion of our IAF and IA. And all what you have said will happen.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Sep 2016 22:00

Shanmukh wrote:Rudradev-ji,
The point is - IF we are making the case that Pakistan is a terrorist state, we should put our money where our mouths are.

How would you interpret our orchestrating the multilateral isolation of Pakistan in SAARC, and the corresponding surge forward with BIMSTEC? Is that not putting our money where our mouth is? Even G. Parthasarthy recognizes that these are exactly the kinds of measures we need.

We are investing a ton in Afghanistan ($1B, IIRC). How about demanding that they take concrete measures that will hurt Pakistan? Do we see any new law in Afghanistan that is upsetting Pakistan?

Did you see what the Afghans did when the Pakistanis tried to reinforce the Durand line recently? It was pretty concrete, must have hurt quite a bit, and I would rather see that kind of thing than any law passed. Ashraf Ghani, who was initially propped up by the US as someone who would likely be more amenable to Pakistani influence, has now become their bete noire in all his statements. We're opening up military aid to them all the while. AND they're part of the coalition that has called for a SAARC boycott of Pakistan.

Now one can move the goalposts a thousand times if the sole purpose is to prove the perception that "Modi is doing nothing". Why no law, why no renunciation of MFN, why no declaration of terrorist state, why no this or no that. Fact is, things are being done that were never even considered for a decade or more.

As for Iran, the very fact that they're happily cooperating on Chahbahar shows that they don't give two hoots for Pakistani (or even Chinese) pressure and will gladly set up a corridor that's in direct competition with OBOR or CPEC. Otherwise, what do you want them to do to concretely hurt Pakistan? Why should they? Have we done anything to hurt the GCC, whose proxies Iran accuses of being terrorist? Let's be realistic in our yardsticks here.

How much coverage is the atrocities on Baluch & PoJK folks getting in India? Apart from Modi mentioning it in a few speeches, I have not seen much on the ground. Have the Baluch & PoJK conferences on the areas been established in India? A free Baluchistan/PoJK centre? All these are not clandestine activity - they are open & regular, IF we believe that the Baluch & the PoJK folks are being oppressed & we believe in liberating them. When Indira went against Pakistan in 1971, she did the Mukti-Bahini propaganda openly. This is not clandestine activity. This is normal preparation. The Pakistanis would take us more seriously if we begin educating the INDIANS about Baluchistan & PoJK. Are we doing any of it? I just don't see anything like that now.

You really don't? Boss, the very fact of Modi saying it from the Red Fort is a green signal to Nationalist media to embrace the discourse of Baluch independence. During the UPA regime the only time we heard any public policy reference to Baluchistan was when we "admitted" at Sharm-el-Shaikh that we were "interfering" there. Now of course there is a huge Pak-pasand media presence that would like to suppress any reference to things unpalatable to their paymasters, but even in spite of that, the genie has incontrovertibly been let out of the bottle. Same with PoJ&K (since the '90s Parliamentary resolution, was there any articulation under the UPA government of India's stand that PoJ&K/NA are the legal territory of India?) Whether the discourse intensifies remains to be seen, but I for one detect a profound difference even in what is visible so far.

Everyone will see what they want to see, or not see what they don't want to see, in these things I guess.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Sep 2016 22:06

Christopher Sidor wrote:Rudradev ji let us have a bet, you said what happened in Dec 1971 started in Dec in 1970. Today is 20-Sept-2016 I bet you that even after 21-Sept-2017 nothing comparable to what happened in 1971, like for example separation of Baluchistan from Pakistan or reclamation of our lost J&K territory will happen. Let us see if NM has the foresight to do what Indira Gandhi did in that next one year of 1970-71. Would you agree with my bet sir?

I don't determine the GOI's timelines, and cannot claim to have any specific knowledge of them. Whether it happens in September 2017 or 2018 or earlier or later, I cannot say. What I can say is that the response to this specific Uri attack... whether or not there is any overt response at all... will have no bearing on what Modi eventually does to Pakistan. Just as the specific response to the April '65 Rann of Kutch intrusion (a retreat by overpowered Indian forces, actually) had no bearing at all on the specific timing or outcome of the 1965 war.

And about
Rudradev wrote: Let's go back to Sharm-el-Shaikh and Thimphu declarations, CBMs and demilitarizing Siachen and handing over Sir Creek. "Joint sovereignty" over J&K as was being discussed with Musharraf. Admitting, falsely, that we were involved in fomenting rebellion in Baluchistan to the same extent that Pakistan is involved in terrorism in J&K. Let's also throw in Hindu terrorism as the greatest threat to South Asia, Hindu terrorists bombed the Samjhauta Express, and everything else the UPA II asserted. Light-years ahead of where we are, surely.
This is where NM is going eventually. He has already lost the plot in J&K. He will very soon loose it in the east against PLA too with our depletion of our IAF and IA. And all what you have said will happen.

This is a bet I will gladly take, however. You assert that all that I have said will happen, i.e. Modi will take on all the positions I've described above. You're on.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 20 Sep 2016 22:09

What would it take for India to take back PoK? How long do the gurus think the conflict in that case would extend?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2016 22:10

Christopher Sidor wrote: Who guaranteed the outcome in 1971 breakup of Pakistan into two pieces?

Who celebrated after 1971 saying that the Pakistan problem and the 2 nation theory were put to rest forever? Who now says that the leader who was at the helm was the best leader ever?

Don't know if you were around back then but this was the national mood. All forgotten now and I see you saying that Pakistan can be punished but allowed to survive and al will be vel. I don;t believe that. If war is fought the outcome must be the dissolution of Pakistan

Christopher Sidor wrote: We do not need a war with Pakistan to punish it. What we need is to stop running to Uncle everytime a strike happens and grow a pair. Payback Pakistan in the same coin as it has been given us.

As I see it running to uncle is as effective as paying them back with pinpricks - killing 10 now, 20 later and leaving the army and country intact.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Sep 2016 22:12

The Iranians gave access to Chinese via Bandar Abbas. To India, they gave access via Chabahar.
The chinese are building both road and rail from bandar abbas into afghanistan, then to china via FSU republics. Just last week, this railway line construction reached Iran-Afghanistan border and crossed over to afghanistan & is headed for Herat Airport.

Chinese already have access to the gulf via iran. CPEC is doubtful if there is civil strife in pakistan. The chinese will happily hold on to Gawadar, that is what they wanted anyways.

Afghanistan had only one access to the sea, now they have two. They can play Iran vs Pakistan game to their best advantage, play China vs India too.
Besides both china and India are investing in Iran and afghanistan. Everyone is happy.

BTW, Afghanistan has blocked Pakistani access to central asia, because pakistan has blocked India's access to afghanistan via pakistan

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 20 Sep 2016 22:14

Chris I am with u my friend and I feel your pain but u have to look at the bigger picture. There will be major action just stay tuned but not yet.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 20 Sep 2016 22:18

Rudradev wrote:
Shanmukh wrote:Rudradev-ji,
The point is - IF we are making the case that Pakistan is a terrorist state, we should put our money where our mouths are.
How would you interpret our orchestrating the multilateral isolation of Pakistan in SAARC, and the corresponding surge forward with BIMSTEC? Is that not putting our money where our mouth is? Even G. Parthasarthy recognizes that these are exactly the kinds of measures we need.

Rudradev-ji,
This is one point I won't reply to. I am not very well versed in this point.

Did you see what the Afghans did when the Pakistanis tried to reinforce the Durand line recently? It was pretty concrete, must have hurt quite a bit, and I would rather see that kind of thing than any law passed. Ashraf Ghani, who was initially propped up by the US as someone who would likely be more amenable to Pakistani influence, has now become their bete noire in all his statements. We're opening up military aid to them all the while. AND they're part of the coalition that has called for a SAARC boycott of Pakistan.

Here, IIRC, Afghans have been reacting very harshly to very Pakistani attempt to claim the Durand line. Throughout the 70s, 80s & even the 90s, when there was a semblance of a half decent government in Afghanistan. Even Pakistani proxies like the Telebunnies didn't accept the Durand line.

You really don't? Boss, the very fact of Modi saying it from the Red Fort is a green signal to Nationalist media to embrace the discourse of Baluch independence. During the UPA regime the only time we heard any public policy reference to Baluchistan was when we "admitted" at Sharm-el-Shaikh that we were "interfering" there. Now of course there is a huge Pak-pasand media presence that would like to suppress any reference to things unpalatable to their paymasters, but even in spite of that, the genie has incontrovertibly been let out of the bottle. Same with PoJ&K (since the '90s Parliamentary resolution, was there any articulation under the UPA government of India's stand that PoJ&K/NA are the legal territory of India?) Whether the discourse intensifies remains to be seen, but I for one detect a profound difference even in what is visible so far.

Everyone will see what they want to see, or not see what they don't want to see, in these things I guess.

This is a point I am able to comment on from personal knowledge. Nothing has been done. And the proposals of the Baluch nationalists has been shot down. They are more than a touch unhappy with that. They have a lot of hopes & expectations, but they have got precious little support, even politically & diplomatically.

SSharma · Post by **SSharma** » 20 Sep 2016 22:19

shiv wrote:..
But if we look at ourselves as citizens and our country and its people and soldiers as eternal and politicians as temporary you find that attacking India with 4, 8, 10, or 20 jihadis can only go so far. To hit India one has to attack with 100,000 men with tanks and aircraft. That would be serious - imagine losing a chunk of Rajasthan and a clear road to Delhi as nearly occurred in 1971?
..

when we believe india is our motherland and sing vande mataram etc
then an analogy for this attack would be our neighbour telling his son to spit paan on our mother every weekend.

sure it wont kill or physically hurt our mother.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Sep 2016 22:20

Mukti Bahini also complained that they didn't get the level of political and diplomatic support they wanted from IG. All the way until the capitulation of Dhaka. People always ask for as much as they can, and some are disappointed when not every wish is granted on their timetable.

"The Blood Telegram" details the diary of a MB recruit who came to India to train and complained about his ill-fitting uniform, his regularly jamming Enfield rifle, the muddy tents he had to sleep in, the jackfruit he had to eat three meals a day.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2016 22:22

SSharma wrote:
shiv wrote:..
But if we look at ourselves as citizens and our country and its people and soldiers as eternal and politicians as temporary you find that attacking India with 4, 8, 10, or 20 jihadis can only go so far. To hit India one has to attack with 100,000 men with tanks and aircraft. That would be serious - imagine losing a chunk of Rajasthan and a clear road to Delhi as nearly occurred in 1971?
..
when we believe india is our motherland and sing vande mataram etc
then an analogy for this attack would be our neighbour telling his son to spit paan on our mother every weekend.

sure it wont kill or physically hurt our mother.

Absolutely correct. The choice is between spitting pan back on him or killing him. We all have to make our choices. I would prefer killing him.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2016 22:24

One small step that I would call "progress" would be the general acceptance that diplomacy, talks and peace initiatives are not working and that we have to prepare for war.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 20 Sep 2016 22:27

General state of mankind is war, peace is the mirage in between. I agree with shiv.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Sep 2016 22:29

Christopher,
Why so much rhona/dhona? Do you want NaMo to attack in POK which is exactly where TSP wants him to? Or do you want him to take apart TSP, at least 5% chance as RD puts it? BTW I am 100% he will do it.
You are not letting your creative brain to think.

Shanmukh, How do you know Afghanistan is not doing its part? BTW they were the first to condemn the #UriAttack. And first to support India on Baluchistan.

I agree there is pain at the losses at Uri but look at the casualties there. Majority was from burns. Even when surprised the soldiers shot one terrorist and the other three holed up.
And the pain should not distort the mind from doing the maximum damage to TSP which is to ensure it does not exist. Not in a punitive strike which is a brutus fulmen. In 1998, Clinton fired dozens of cruise missiles. And didn't hurt Osama bin Laden and got a few empty tents and goats.

The world is getting educated about the Baluchis and POK. There is a demonstration at UN HQ in NYC while Badmash is speaking.

Shiv, Chanakya adds two more to the popular four ways: do nothing and prepare for war/action.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 20 Sep 2016 22:30

Rudradev wrote:Mukti Bahini also complained that they didn't get the level of political and diplomatic support they wanted from IG. All the way until the capitulation of Dhaka. People always ask for as much as they can, and some are disappointed when not every wish is granted on their timetable.

"The Blood Telegram" details the diary of a MB recruit who came to India to train and complained about his ill-fitting uniform, his regularly jamming Enfield rifle, the muddy tents he had to sleep in, the jackfruit he had to eat three meals a day.

Erm - Mukti Bahini excerpts (& IIRC, even interviews) were being broadcast on All India Radio in 1971. Today, Baluch nationalists press conferences are ignored by Indian official media. Even diplomats in Indian embassies refuse them interviews.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Sep 2016 22:31

Shanmukh, The BJP has long memories and contacts with Balochis. Those turned down are Islamists who will turn back to TSP. Not everything white is milk.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 20 Sep 2016 22:45

https://twitter.com/manakgupta/status/7 ... 9439542272

Manak GuptaVerified account
‏@manakgupta
10 men killed by Indian army near / across LOC were Pak army regulars....!!!! And not terrorists. (Sources)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Sep 2016 22:49

There is a limit to how far we can take the 1971 analogy and apply it to 2016. In 1971 - from March to November 10 million refugees came into India along the states bordering Bangladesh/East Pakistan. There was some serious human suffering to show there and there was broad international recognition that there was a Pakistani army genocide in progress in Pakistan.

And let there be no confusion about what India did. India armed and funded the Mukti Bahini but it was hardly made public. The news reports that I read in those days were straight from the same Indian propaganda machine that told us that Muslims and Hindus were being killed in E Pakistan. Actually it was mostly Hindus. But we were told of the heroic exploits of the Mukti Bahini and not about Indian help. Although the Pakis and the US knew - Indians and the world at large saw this as a heroic freedom struggle. In the end it was Pakistan that attacked India. India did not attack Pakistan, and Pakistan lost that last fig leaf of innocence.

In 2016 we have Indian army being attacked by Kashmiri stone throwers and later by a group of men whom India claims are Pakistanis. I believe it. You believe it. US/Europe say tsk tsk. Chin and Pak say "balls" . Oh yeah we can retaliate and feel better but no point fooling ourselves and thinking "Pakistan will be taught a lesson"

Somehow too many people revert to a kind of childish fantasy in which punishment is imagined to cause a change of behaviour. That is true only for individuals. Unfortunately you cannot make the Pakistan army change behaviour by killing a few jihadis or hitting their camps or even by killing 200 Paki army men. We simply like to think "we have punished them - they will learn"

On the previous page I have posted a Tweet by a woman who is happy that "Pakistan has punished Modi and that he will now stop killing Muslims". Now tell me, how has Pakistan punished Modi? Also tell me how an artillery bombardment is going to affect a Pakistan army that has risen up to finger India after the "Final war" of 1971.

China "punished India" in 1962. What did it get them It got them shivering shitting Indians for 50 years But after 50 years India is rising and talking shit at China. So this "punishment' is some kind of "holy grail" that I suggest only satisfies our immediate need to hit back. But it is cheap and easy. What is tough is taking Pakistan out and we have to prepare for that. Unless we also believe that we can punish them today and talk down to them later. That is what we all thought in 1971

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Sep 2016 23:04

ramana wrote:Christopher,
Why so much rhona/dhona? Do you want NaMo to attack in POK which is exactly where TSP wants him to? Or do you want him to take apart TSP, at least 5% chance as RD puts it? BTW I am 100% he will do it.
You are not letting your creative brain to think.

Sir if I wanted creative brain to think then I would prefer Congress to BJP which is turning out to be worst than an empty vessel. And I want him to reclaim what is ours, i.e. POK and the Northern Areas. I want him to be different than UPA-II. And about the rhona/dhona I feel the pain of the father who lost his two sons to terrorist while our leaders and especially our PM is only mouthing meaningless and worthless platitudes.
If he takes apart TSP then that is the icing on the cake.
But to expect that is to expect pigs can fly.

ramana wrote: I agree there is pain at the losses at Uri but look at the casualties there. Majority was from burns.

So the terrorist from the so called TSP were not to blame but fire was for the deaths. These chaps from TSP were just there lightning some fire which just happened to be near IA soldiers tent. Please do not mind my sarcasm, but I tend to get upset when my countries soldiers have been burnt alive by terrorist.

ramana wrote: And the pain should not distort the mind from doing the maximum damage to TSP which is to ensure it does not exist. Not in a punitive strike which is a brutus fulmen. In 1998, Clinton fired dozens of cruise missiles. And didn't hurt Osama bin Laden and got a few empty tents and goats.

Sir do you think that this is what the current ruling dispensation will do? Then I am sorry to say to you sir that please rise up from the slumber that we all seem to be. Just like Congress this government will do nothing of such sort. Max they will carry out a meaningless raid and like George W Bush put a big banner saying Misson Accomplished or we have taken revenge and do nothing. To encapsulate all of this into one word, I would point to a Hinglish word, "Feku".

ramana wrote: Shiv, Chanakya adds two more to the popular four ways: do nothing and prepare for war/action.

Sir the first part they will do the second they have done nothing in the past 2.5 years and do not expect anything from them after 2.5 years.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Sep 2016 23:11

Sab mile Huey hain ji? Aaptards can hyper ventilate as much as they can but if there is someone who can deliver anything other than dosa it is this government.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Sep 2016 23:14

Rudradev wrote:
Christopher Sidor wrote:Rudradev ji let us have a bet, you said what happened in Dec 1971 started in Dec in 1970. Today is 20-Sept-2016 I bet you that even after 21-Sept-2017 nothing comparable to what happened in 1971, like for example separation of Baluchistan from Pakistan or reclamation of our lost J&K territory will happen. Let us see if NM has the foresight to do what Indira Gandhi did in that next one year of 1970-71. Would you agree with my bet sir?
I don't determine the GOI's timelines, and cannot claim to have any specific knowledge of them. Whether it happens in September 2017 or 2018 or earlier or later, I cannot say. What I can say is that the response to this specific Uri attack... whether or not there is any overt response at all... will have no bearing on what Modi eventually does to Pakistan. Just as the specific response to the April '65 Rann of Kutch intrusion (a retreat by overpowered Indian forces, actually) had no bearing at all on the specific timing or outcome of the 1965 war.

Thank you for concurring with the fact that this PM has neither the vision or the guts to do what IG did in 1971 or to what LBS did in 1965.

Rudradev wrote: This is a bet I will gladly take, however. You assert that all that I have said will happen, i.e. Modi will take on all the positions I've described above. You're on.

Wow a bet which was not offered was taken. Blinkers is the word which comes to my mind.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 20 Sep 2016 23:36

snahata wrote:To me it is interesting that Putin did not react to Turkey's shooting down of a Russian aircraft. He stuck to his guns and came out looking good. His political gambles have been more successful than Ombaba's second term.

Putin came out on the top because Turkish President has a bone to pick with USA for sheltering people whom he has accused of attempting to over throw him. And in the year 2016 one cannot have a bone to pick with both Russia and USA. Further the Turkish President has seen the awesome air power that Russia has bought to bear for Assad. Whether it will help Putin or Russia is best left to future. What was one of the first steps that our beloved defence minister did as soon as he came to power, he cancelled the order of 100+ Fighters and replaced it with an order for 36 fighters. And we wonder why we cannot deploy our air power like Russia did in Syria. Did he make that up by purchasing air defence suppressing tools and weapons, NO.

Don't expect the average Indian to be fooled. He sees these items and he considers this in the elections. Well they are still 2.5 years away.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Sep 2016 23:59

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Sep 2016 00:05

OK. Enough. One person can whine only so much. Not every post.
You are unwilling to see any other side.

I suggest voluntary cool down till you get over the pain.
At time of crisis the one who needs to be stopped is the one who undermines confidence in oneself.
All your complaints have been examined and rebutted.

ramana

Also visit the Mil Forum thread....
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7152&start=480

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Sep 2016 00:05

Gulf news out of UAE spitting fire on Pakistan is very significant.
KSA & the gulf states have tightly controlled media. I feel UAE & KSA are speaking in one voice here.

I see this as the voice of the Ummah, asking India to defeat pak sponsored terror

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 21 Sep 2016 00:15

@Shiv-ji, @Rudradev-ji,
I used the 1971 events to show the difference in propaganda. No one could doubt that we were very serious about Bangladesh in 1971. There isn't anything similar to show that we are serious about Baluchistan or PoJK. Of course, this can change, but for now, there is no comparison between Bangladesh propaganda & Baluchistan propaganda.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 21 Sep 2016 00:21

Gagan wrote:Gulf news out of UAE spitting fire on Pakistan is very significant.
KSA & the gulf states have tightly controlled media. I feel UAE & KSA are speaking in one voice here.

I see this as the voice of the Ummah, asking India to defeat pak sponsored terror

I have a question - Why would the KSA let go of their munna?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 Sep 2016 00:26

https://twitter.com/asifsuhaf/status/778198127572426752

aasifsuhaf News24 ‏@asifsuhaf 7h7 hours ago
Army moving heavy artillery weapons towards LOC in Uri North Kashmir, 8 Militants Killed so far in URI Sector Army Sorcs to @news24tvchannel

https://twitter.com/asifsuhaf/status/778198127572426752

aasifsuhaf News24 ‏@asifsuhaf 4h4 hours ago
10 #Pak Armymn Killed by #IndianArmy Nr #LOC in URI Sectr of North #Kashmir 2 days aftr #UriAttack, #PakArmy Cl bk soldiers on leave Sources

Kolahoi ‏@PawanDurani 8m8 minutes ago
Breaking : In Pakistan flights to Gilgit, Skardu & Chitral have been cancelled .

This is very significant !

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 Sep 2016 00:34

Kolahoi ‏@PawanDurani 3m3 minutes ago
Approximately 20 goals scored by Indo team so far ..... with 'surgical ' precision .

News from the 'stadium'

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Sep 2016 00:48

Sicanta wrote:
Gagan wrote:Gulf news out of UAE spitting fire on Pakistan is very significant.
KSA & the gulf states have tightly controlled media. I feel UAE & KSA are speaking in one voice here.

I see this as the voice of the Ummah, asking India to defeat pak sponsored terror
I have a question - Why would the KSA let go of their munna?

KSA has been really pissed off with Pakistan.
Pakistan did an == between Sunni leader KSA and Shia leader Iran, and that despite when KSA's young def min even flew down to Isloo to meet Nawaz and Raheel.
China pushed pakistan into taking this stand. Anyways Pakistan was trying to play both sides, and trying to be a ummah statesman.

UAE, took the lead then and roundly criticized Pakistan. UAE was speaking for all the gulf states. They used language that suggested that this was Arabs vs non arabs ! Right after that Modi landed in both KSA and UAE, got $75 billion investments from UAE (UAE has even more investements already in process in India - ports, strategic fuel reserve etc), and KSA gave modi their highest civilian honour. India committed to buy more oil from KSA - I think india is one of their biggest buyers, and KSA/UAE need a secure destination to invest and grow their money in.

Pakistan refused to give them the bum, that they had built with saudi money.

Then, one paki actually did a soosai bum in the parking lot of Mecca mosque.

All in all, Pakistan contributes nothing to help the gulf states, constantly asks for money and free oil, and is always doing some haramigiri for which they have to bail out Pakistan's arse.

To top it off, when the Iranian President visited Pakistan, ISPR did a series of tweets that pissed the iranians so much, that they've literally kicked the pakis out. The iranians signed all those agreements with India and afghanistan almost right away.

These are the Great Foreign Policy Wonders that the geniuses in the Pak Army did !

luther_vick · Post by **luther_vick** » 21 Sep 2016 01:06

Sicanta wrote:
Gagan wrote:Gulf news out of UAE spitting fire on Pakistan is very significant.
KSA & the gulf states have tightly controlled media. I feel UAE & KSA are speaking in one voice here.

I see this as the voice of the Ummah, asking India to defeat pak sponsored terror
I have a question - Why would the KSA let go of their munna?

I knew they are pissed when they arrested the famous Lal Topi ISI parrot and subjected to humiliation of prison and flogging

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Sep 2016 01:11

Why are we boycotting SAARC meet, when we should actually kick out Pak from SAARC - move the meet to Delhi and throw NaPak out. No one will oppose it. Anyway its been playing spoilsport all the while in SAARC.

@Shiv
A question for you. I some of your previous posts you mentioned that perhaps Pak is expecting India to react in rash manner. May be so. But I am thinking looking ta the history, Pakis always have assumed that Hindu baniyas are too weak to fight back and under this self-delusion they have went on to have Wars with us. Whole premise of Kargil was based on typical lack of retaliation from India quickly - they were taken aback by our heavy response. When we have not crossed LoC during Kargil, we have not taken any significant action after Mumbai or Pathankot, what is so different now that Pakis are expecting India to act rashly and retaliate immediately?? That too when there is a possibility that even they might not have expected such high death toll, which resulted due to fire mainly. I somehow find it difficult to digest the fact that Bakis were expecting us to react immediately when the history has proved time and again they believe the exact opposite and GoI is hell bent on proving them right again and again. Not even with the UNGA factor taken into account.

About the big guys US/China preaching us restrain - what if we act on a pre-made tactical punitive action (IA already has escalator ladder of such retaliation - someone mensioned here that two retd IA chiefs said as much on TV) before even anyone can react - like on the same night - and retreat - issueing statement that we have punished bakis for misadventure against India and the action is over for now, but we are ready to go to any length if provoked further. This way we put the onus of escalation on Bakis - wouldn't US/China now have to preach restrain to Pak, to maintain their pious face in front of all?? If Pak doesn't listen we get our excuse to crush them. We get high ground for punitive tactical action based on the attack on us and later for the strategic action if Pak tries to escalate. Can we make it happen??

I agree that there is no short term solution for Bakis. But until we are is a position to implement the long term solution we need a short term plan. We need to train Bakis like Pavlov's Dog - every time they try to act against us, they fill the pain. The war with Bakis is multi-layered. We need to fight it on all levels. It will take a few years to go for aar paar ki ladai on our own (i.e. unless we are forced into it like in 1962 or 65 or 99). We shouldn't keep quite until them.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 21 Sep 2016 01:15

Yaa, and include the Government of Balochistan in SAARC at the same time onlee

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Sep 2016 01:20

^^ Yes, we can give baloch and Sindh observers' position to start with, in SAARC. But we may need some time in order to come other members on-board fully for this. It may not happen immediately. But the game is being laid down as we speak.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 21 Sep 2016 01:40

Chandragupta wrote:What would it take for India to take back PoK? How long do the gurus think the conflict in that case would extend?

If we get the land, what about the people? Do we want 'x' million rabid beards running around?

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 21 Sep 2016 01:42

Thanks gagan ji

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Sep 2016 01:51

KJo wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:What would it take for India to take back PoK? How long do the gurus think the conflict in that case would extend?
If we get the land, what about the people? Do we want 'x' million rabid beards running around?

Exactly. Grabbing any populated area from Bakis will need large scale sanitization drive first, before integration with India. Else we will have just a bigger stone pelting crowd at the very least, against whom we would not be able to do much due to our sikular politicians/media/liberal traitors.

Even when we liberate (if and when) Sindh and Balochistan, we should keep this thing in mind that they be sanitized of all anti-India element. Best would be to make the local freedom fighters do the dirty work of cleaning up the rabid paki dogs. I am thinking we should probably keep them de-militarized by providing them our nuclear umbrella protection - just to avoid any possibility of biting back. And some more measures can be thought of to secure our long term interests.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 21 Sep 2016 02:00

One of the things that can be used effectively in the short-term is to force money transfer companies, and credit card companies that operate in India not to do so in Pakisatn. There are a number of money laundering UN rules that can provide the framework

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 21 Sep 2016 02:21

Christopher Sidor wrote:
Rudradev wrote:
I don't determine the GOI's timelines, and cannot claim to have any specific knowledge of them. Whether it happens in September 2017 or 2018 or earlier or later, I cannot say. What I can say is that the response to this specific Uri attack... whether or not there is any overt response at all... will have no bearing on what Modi eventually does to Pakistan. Just as the specific response to the April '65 Rann of Kutch intrusion (a retreat by overpowered Indian forces, actually) had no bearing at all on the specific timing or outcome of the 1965 war.
Thank you for concurring with the fact that this PM has neither the vision or the guts to do what IG did in 1971 or to what LBS did in 1965.

You arbitrarily pronounce some deadline by which, if you do not see visible action against Pakistan, it means this PM doesn't have vision or guts. When I don't accept a bet placed on the basis of this arbitrary deadline, you conclude that I concur with your view. OK. Whatever makes you feel better, sir.

Rudradev wrote: This is a bet I will gladly take, however. You assert that all that I have said will happen, i.e. Modi will take on all the positions I've described above. You're on.
Wow a bet which was not offered was taken. Blinkers is the word which comes to my mind.

Blinkers are worn by many people in many ways.

Every single one of us feels the pain of every citizen of India who lost a father, brother, or son to the filthy swine who attacked Uri this week.

Not all of us, however, translate our empathy (along with the absence of immediate, visible retaliation against Pakistan) into the conclusion that Modi GOI has no guts, no vision, and is no better than UPA II.

Not all of us are so easily manipulated by the media to dance to their tune. With respect, that suggests the presence of some seriously opaque blinkers.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 21 Sep 2016 02:25

^^ Now that RuPay is coming up we perhaps can armtwist VISA/Mastercard to some extent. But not this much IMO. Uncle Sam will come running. As such US has iron grip on entire banking system, I doubt we can do much about it. May be we can impose special terrorist tax on companies who are dealing with Pakis??? Then even public can choose to boycott them easily once they are marked. But other wrt businesses we can have more influence IMO.

In response to the Uri Terrorist Attack, I believe GOI will take the following action: