Terror Attack At Army Camp In Jammu And Kashmir's Uri

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Sep 2016 08:58

shiv wrote:
SriKumar wrote:Not sure if this is the right thread for this news item from Dawn: air space over 'Northern Areas' (i.e. Skardu, Gilgit etc) closed to commercial aviation,

http://www.dawn.com/news/1285118/flight ... hern-areas
FlightAware/FlightTracker are showing Gulf to Peking and Gulf to Japan flights over Glgit/Karakoram as of 5 minutes ago
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/

Can they close to paki civilian planes only? Allowing international flights over their airspace will be a good idea to them as any "incident" involving a 3rd country's plane will make it a big international issue, like the shooting down of Malaysian plane over Ukraine.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 22 Sep 2016 09:16

Speculating here but closing it to PIA commercial traffic frees up airports for other activity.
As for using roads as runways, I think it is quite possible assuming there is a straight-enough stretch....a Mirage 2000 recently demonstrated that on the Yamuna expressway (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARj6YqfSXGs) and other examples are there.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 22 Sep 2016 09:28

Yes, US highways after WWII -- then only US started the big high way project - effort was military driven and roads were designed so roads can be used as runways in remote places..there were very specific parameters (have long stretches without overpass or sharp curves, can handle weight etc) for US highways when the interstates were built in 50's..

But funny part was the Paki 'retired generals-experts' talking about it telling how ready they are to counter India's mood of misadventure.. it was funnier than the shrill voice of the moderator lady in that Paki program which I happened to land on. (I think Geo)

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 22 Sep 2016 09:29

India cannot acknowledge it for obvious reasons while Pak cannot acknowledge it for H&D reasons. Perhaps some images will be released after all this dies down.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 22 Sep 2016 09:35

praveen swamy reports 15 minutes of action was heard Tue night by locals in border towns of Myan, Lachipora and Ghode tal

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Sep 2016 09:36

Cross border raids are at division commander's prerogative and do not require permission of higher up. Thus I wager what has happened, is that a few 'usual' raids have been clubbed together this time resulting in few more casualties. This is very temporary and not sufficient enough to be a deterrant.
The real response if it comes will arrive a bit later and will involve use of air power and also target economic interests close to border as a warning what is in store.

Real escalation will be measured in pakistan army's loss in face in front of their public, it has to be measurable, it has to be in front of 'their' public and quantified.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 22 Sep 2016 09:37

Meanwhile NS must be cursing himself - may be he had no choice but to tow other sharif's line - but really?? He praised a dead terrorist (Wani) ! That too from an organization declared terrorist org by UN!! in UN?

It remains to be seen but IMO everyone going to avoid him like a plague. Even China. It will be interesting to see Ms. Swaraj's UN address. I think on diplomatic front NaMo is doing well.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 22 Sep 2016 09:38

prasannasimha wrote:^ If you remember the Myanmar hot pursut it was also not announced directly but from "other sources"

The "other source" you are referring to was the junior minister R S Rathore, so the hot pursuit was acknowledged at the govt. level.

partha · Post by **partha** » 22 Sep 2016 09:38

Anantha wrote:praveen swamy reports 15 minutes of action was heard Tue night by locals in border towns of Myan, Lachipora and Ghode tal

It looks like he is back to peddling grandma stories.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 22 Sep 2016 09:40

CHeck out todays timesof India news. Govt denies special forces crossed LOC. however I see a sudden spurt in encounters along LoC. Am not able to connect the dots. What are we doing? GOI says PM has given the army a free hand, but there must be constraints which they might not be able to cross. And why the hell is the GOI not talking to all service chiefs together to have a cohesive strategy. I only see Modi, Rajnanth CCS and Army chief. Why not Navy and Air force? Are we doing anything at all?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 22 Sep 2016 09:47

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote: FlightAware/FlightTracker are showing Gulf to Peking and Gulf to Japan flights over Glgit/Karakoram as of 5 minutes ago
https://uk.flightaware.com/live/
Can they close to paki civilian planes only? Allowing international flights over their airspace will be a good idea to them as any "incident" involving a 3rd country's plane will make it a big international issue, like the shooting down of Malaysian plane over Ukraine.

Way long back, I was in the cockpit of a commercial plane (those days one was allowed to visit with permission) flight to Bombay, while flying around the Israeli air space. Made a comment to the pilot about military activities down below and his comment was it is too far below. But today, with dime-a-dozen SAMs that can reach way up there, I would imagine it will be a risk, provided there is a declared war. Pakis declaring a NFZ could have had a ceiling.

AG,

Even today the Inter-State systems are still under DoD, which rubber stamps any approval. The design and funding is provided by the DoT. All IS roads are designed to carry military loads - tanks, etc. But .................

They were built to supply the West Coast in a jiffy, which the Army (not the USN/USAF) felt was not protected well enough.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 Sep 2016 10:07

Iyersan wrote:CHeck out todays timesof India news. Govt denies special forces crossed LOC. however I see a sudden spurt in encounters along LoC. Am not able to connect the dots. What are we doing? GOI says PM has given the army a free hand, but there must be constraints which they might not be able to cross. And why the hell is the GOI not talking to all service chiefs together to have a cohesive strategy. I only see Modi, Rajnanth CCS and Army chief. Why not Navy and Air force? Are we doing anything at all?

We were raiding the PA regulars sitting in bunkers on the border. Looks like Para operators from the 2nd and 9th were hitting the more sensitive nodes. It was proly all over in under 1-2 hours. PA casualties IMO are much more than 20-25. This would explain why we lost an additional 1-2 IA regulars on the border. We may have used incendiary rounds to cook them from the inside for the more heavily defended targets. Shoot and scoot to the next target and keeping up the pressure and intensity.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 22 Sep 2016 10:08

Iyersan, From what I see orders have been given to not cross LOC for Choppers and other major equipment, but Commandos, special forces allowed to cross LOC as needed (deniability exists). No open action can until UN jokers meeting is over. Uri itself was a trap to coincide with the jokers conf in NY. Every sept, leaders of all nations come to eat Yankee food and pass loud farts all day.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 22 Sep 2016 10:29

Amber G. wrote:Sri Kumar - Paki Urdu news was also saying that they were removing concrete road-blocks from nearby highways - no I am not making it up -- so that fighter planes can, if need be, land and take-off from roads !

I hope that does happen. First time a fighter plane lands on the road, one or more of the following will happen.
(a) Fighter will suffer some undercarriage damage due to rocks/potholes/uneven bumps/road camber etc. when coming in to land.
(b) Fighter will ingest some rocks into the engine on take-off. Best case: engine is ruined, worst case: plane crashes due to engine failure.
(c) Fighter ends up melting a good part of the road surface when attempting to take off.

[edit]Did some further reading up and it appears Pak has actually constructed two dedicated sections of road between Lahore and Islamabad on the M2 and another two dedicated sections on the M1, to be used as runways for aircraft. These sections are built with thicker surface and concrete base for this purpose and each is about 2700 meters long and they landed a F7-P (not the Thunder) and a Mirage on it in 2010.
Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_strip
[/edit]

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Sep 2016 11:25

Yes, then they will bring in Tankers, Bowshers, ground crew etc. unless the Pakis never meant to let the Aircraft take off again, it is more psyops, a 5Km section of Highway where aircrft can and wait till thier ground crew and equipment come. Miltarily useless, only Paki media thinks it is something great.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 22 Sep 2016 14:44

Omar Abdullah ‏@abdullah_omar 2h2 hours ago
This has to be the first of its kind of surgical strike where the striker isn't ready to claim glory & the target doesn't know it was hit.

OA rattled at India not making claim for the kill.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Sep 2016 14:50

The sickular brigades main task is to discredit Modi even at a cost to the country. They don't care if the Bakis gain in the process.

They talk down his domestic as well as his international efforts.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 22 Sep 2016 14:58

But we cannot discredit what His Highness Abdullah from Kashmir says. If we did it then we must own it publicly. Rub salt into the Paki wounds. Why wouldn't the BJP want to capitalize on it?? It would be major electoral gain in 2019 General and Punjab state elections

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Sep 2016 15:04

Okay finally managed to reach someone in DGMO. He says the situation is the same - army not involved in deliberations for response which are lead by Babus. Nothing being done except babus rebutting every option saying there can be a retaliation. They want 0 retaliation solutions which are impossible. Some units may take on local targets of opportunity but no directives from political establishment beyond 'same old bs' in his words.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Sep 2016 15:05

2019 is faaar .. in the current short-term news cycles ... does not mean that we do not take action but that current media circus will be forgotten by the time next GE. What Modi/BJP has to realize is that they should be prepared for a strike about 6 months from GE2019 and plan for a response that is visible.

GOI does seem to have NO short-term plans mapped out beforehand even as it is working on a long-term strategy that is visible. Modi/Doval do seem to have miscalculated that short-term Bakis wll behave. If you had planned in advance you wouldn't be holding SO MANY meetings NOW to chalk out a response. A couple of meeting to review the current domestic/international situation based on that pick one option and set the ball rolling.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 22 Sep 2016 15:12

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Okay finally managed to reach someone in DGMO. He says the situation is the same - army not involved in deliberations for response which are lead by Babus. Nothing being done except babus rebutting every option saying there can be a retaliation. They want 0 retaliation solutions which are impossible. Some units may take on local targets of opportunity but no directives from political establishment beyond 'same old bs' in his words.

This is a really sad state of affairs. Is the BJP then as a party doing political grandstanding? Rhetoric and Platitudes wont take them anywhere this time..Everyone is calling this event an inflection point. Hell .... I believe 26/11 was a major one and we sat "dickless"... Is 56" also the same

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Sep 2016 15:15

They will need a causes belli then. And if this isn't good enough nothing will ever be. This is the best time - EU under pressure from Islamic attacks and anti Islamic mood , US in turmoil and Brexit. There will never be such a favourable time and even now our babus and politicos don't want to do anything. Nothing will ever change.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 22 Sep 2016 15:17

Kapoor saab, if it is someone in DGMO you discussed, should we be discussing it here?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Sep 2016 15:21

Iyersan wrote:CHeck out todays timesof India news. Govt denies special forces crossed LOC. however I see a sudden spurt in encounters along LoC. Am not able to connect the dots. What are we doing? GOI says PM has given the army a free hand, but there must be constraints which they might not be able to cross. And why the hell is the GOI not talking to all service chiefs together to have a cohesive strategy. I only see Modi, Rajnanth CCS and Army chief. Why not Navy and Air force? Are we doing anything at all?

right. if certain people didnot appear in the pics of the meeting, it follows that they were not at the meeting ? dont forget that pics are released by the govt. at its convenience.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 22 Sep 2016 15:24

prahaar wrote:Kapoor saab, if it is someone in DGMO you discussed, should we be discussing it here?

Absolutely it should be discussed as long as options, ops etc are not given away in any way even remotely. I am extremely careful in what I post.

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 22 Sep 2016 15:36

Okay finally managed to reach someone in DGMO. He says the situation is the same - army not involved in deliberations for response which are lead by Babus. Nothing being done except babus rebutting every option saying there can be a retaliation. They want 0 retaliation solutions which are impossible. Some units may take on local targets of opportunity but no directives from political establishment beyond 'same old bs' in his words.

Either Modi is making a political blunder by letting his opponents use this as a beating point
Or he is banking on our lack of collective memory just like his predecessor.

Perhaps he should think “Who will invest in a country that fails to safegaurd its interests“ rather than the prevalent “war=no FDI onlee“ logic.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Sep 2016 15:39

I have two options, considering that I (and a few oldies on BRF) have gone through agonizing threads like this so many times. One is to shut up and keep away - and I have tried that also. But it just isn't me.

Every "expert" (real ones, eg retired Army ppl on TV/Twitter) say that some retaliation should be there at least for morale, but leave the place and time to the army.

So while I wait - let me re introduce what was actually a complete thread about 10 yrs ago- "Think like a Paki"

If I was a Paki - all my defences would be on full alert when I am sending terrorists out on a raid into India and I would be doubly alert if the raid succeeds - in case India actually responds - which it has not done since 1999

So now India has not responded instantly so what would I (a Paki) think. When will the response come?

Now that Pakis are on alert they will not de alert for a bit. But till when? Watching the political talk it seems that Modi is trying to "isolate Pakistan". That means Sushma Swaraj's speech at the UNGA will have to happen "later this week". So there will be no retribution before that and the alert has to last till after Smt Swaraj's speech.

Till then chai biskoot only

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Sep 2016 15:40

Only by removing IAS babus from the counter-offensive loop can any move result in positive outcome .

It only strengthens my belief that Modi is provincial level leader. Does not have the confidence to carry out a move by himself by overruling such IAS opposition, like Indira did in 71'. there would have been a lot of babus then that advised her against any 'adventurism' then too.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Sep 2016 15:42

After Pathankot & Gurdaspur we had heard this "time and place of our choosing" spiel.

And then somewhere in between came the APS Peshawar tragedy and the whole "time and place of our choosing" was conveniently forgotten. The Army still has yet to make an offensive move anywhere on western front. It is into this siege syndrome.

Kitne mauke gawa diye, even our good fortunes will not forgive us for letting it go so many times.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 22 Sep 2016 15:49

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Okay finally managed to reach someone in DGMO. He says the situation is the same - army not involved in deliberations for response which are lead by Babus. Nothing being done except babus rebutting every option saying there can be a retaliation. They want 0 retaliation solutions which are impossible. Some units may take on local targets of opportunity but no directives from political establishment beyond 'same old bs' in his words.

Aren't most of the top babus hand picked by this gov, bought from their state cadres specifically for ensuring loyalty? Many of the previous were forced to take VRS or went back to their cadres biding their time. Though seeing how a group of officers in home ministry have tried to force the minister to take back suspension of officers in fcra case regarding zakir naik, maybe clean up has not been solid.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 22 Sep 2016 15:53

Habalji, what you say seems to be true. The loyalty which babudom had for dynasty and the command which IG exercised on babudom is not comparable with Modi. He is seen and treated as an outsider. I doubt even the whole military top brass in on board with Modi, same can be said about the intelligence apparatus?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 22 Sep 2016 15:55

I know this is not right thread still....

Kashmiris turn up for Indian army recruitment drive despite separatists’ diktat http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... t-3043496/

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Sep 2016 15:58

ha, what these babus are saying is that there should not be any slightest inconvenience to their lifestyles, schedules, comforts, routine etc. That is what they mean by 0 retaliation. Kya bewaquf kism ke log hain. They only sit in defence ministry to deal with arms middlemen, not there to take a risk on behalf of the nation. We are losing our edge and very soon we shall not be left with a force that is in fighting condition. Just taking salaries, and doing miscellaneous daily tasks. Everything except fighting a war.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 22 Sep 2016 16:04

Well modi ji will have to hold fort long enough for the young blood to occupy the top positions. Meanwhile reform the syllabus and selection procedure for civils.

Another way will be to strengthen the IPS association so that they can challenge the ias hegemony.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 22 Sep 2016 16:05

Some times a response is delayed because you don't want the outcome to be connected to you especially if the hit is not a military target but something that will cause a lot of pain to it.

Not because you fear a Baki response. No need to name any past incidents but there have been some that no GOI would allow itself to be linked to no matter how vengeful its mood.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 22 Sep 2016 16:12

Vashishtha wrote:
Okay finally managed to reach someone in DGMO. He says the situation is the same - army not involved in deliberations for response which are lead by Babus. Nothing being done except babus rebutting every option saying there can be a retaliation. They want 0 retaliation solutions which are impossible. Some units may take on local targets of opportunity but no directives from political establishment beyond 'same old bs' in his words.
Either Modi is making a political blunder by letting his opponents use this as a beating point
Or he is banking on our lack of collective memory just like his predecessor.

Perhaps he should think “Who will invest in a country that fails to safegaurd its interests“ rather than the prevalent “war=no FDI onlee“ logic.

It will be fine if Modi were to prepare 1 year and then retaliate. But not retaliation would mean that we have re-elected a Congress government but with different faces.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 22 Sep 2016 16:17

Dec 1971 India Pakistan war

Preparations started in March but offensive launched in December.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 22 Sep 2016 16:19

IndraD wrote:Dec 1971 India Pakistan war

Preparations started in March but offensive launched in December.

But they followed a different war doctrine. I guess we don't follow the same today.

habal · Post by **habal** » 22 Sep 2016 16:22

Pathankot terrorist incident was in january, it is now September, we are still waiting for time and place.

we are used to very long timelines.
26/11 response time and place is yet to arrive.

SSharma · Post by **SSharma** » 22 Sep 2016 16:27

a few hours ago when i checked the forums here it was almost a given that we had hit and killed ~200 piglets.
now its back to "waiting for time and place" ?