IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 23 Sep 2016 14:47

Since this is a IGA,i expect no nautanki of kickbacks etc?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 23 Sep 2016 15:31

Amoghvarsha wrote:Since this is a IGA,i expect no nautanki of kickbacks etc?

Never doubt the ingenuity of the Indians and the French. There's still room for that in offsets and spares management.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2016 15:54

Check out @manoharparrikar's Tweet: https://twitter.com/manoharparrikar/sta ... 26817?s=09

from ToI

sources said the "vanilla price" of just the 36 aircraft is about 3.42 billion Euros. The armaments cost about 710 million Euros while Indian specific changes, including integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, will cost 1,700 million Euros.

TIFWIW

======

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale
Rafale IN
Two-seater version for the Indian Air Force

so, it is going to be all 2 seaters?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 Sep 2016 17:08

No option for additional jets in this contract, as per Vishnu Som's Tweet. Does that mean no more Rafale for sure now??

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2016 17:20

definite YES. no more Rafale, and perhaps we would revisit for $5b haggling again in the future (10 years?) for upgrades. All depends on how much it has room to grow.

Let us focus on AMCA and LCA. IMHO, Rafale is to make IAF happy.. and not to belittle their 650 odd inspection points during MMRCA trials. Push all those points and more into our home grown products

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Sep 2016 17:49

Now that we have purchased 36, there's no point to keep it at that number.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 23 Sep 2016 18:07

According to Vishnu Som....

1. The Rafale being acquired by India is in many ways more advanced than what the French operate.
2. India acquiring 28 single seat and 8 twin seat Rafales.
3. Contractual penalties if the Rafale doesn't have an availability rate of greater than 75%
4. Single seat fighter basic cost is 91.07 Euros per piece. Twin seat variant at 94 million Euros.
5. There is nothing in the Inter-governmental agreement that prevents the use of these aircraft in a strategic, read nuclear, role.
6. Logistics and spares (Industrial) support from France can be negotiated for a period of 50 years.
7. Rafale project has been defined by India-specific enhancements - more powerful engines, cold engine start capability in Leh.
8. Radar Warning Receivers, low band jammers, 10 hour flight data recorder recording, Infra-red search and tracking.
9. Missile approach warning systems, Helmet Mounted sights, and VERY SIGNIFICANTLY, towed decoy systems are part of deal.

Don't know how likely is it for the IAF to get higher thrust engines?

According to the Snecma website:

The new M88-4E version of the engine, culminating the TCO Pack program to decrease total cost of ownership, was qualified in 2011. While retaining the exceptional performance of the M88-2, this new version will significantly reduce total cost of ownership, largely due to new components in the hot section of the engine. The first production-standard M88-4E engines will be delivered at the end of 2011. The ECO technology demonstrator confirmed that the M88’s thrust could be increased to the 20,000 lb class

Didier Desnoyer, head of Snecma's Military Engine division, shares his insights.

Q: After being qualified in April 2012, the first M88-4E with the TCO pack was delivered in May. How would you describe its new performance capabilities?

A: The commissioning of the new TCO pack standard marks a major step forward in the ongoing upgrades of the M88 engine. Our aim, working with the French defense procurement agency DGA (Direction Générale de l'Armement) was to streamline maintenance operations and reduce costs for the Rafale fighter. Calling on our state-of-the-art design methods and manufacturing technologies, we modified certain critical parts in the hot section of the engine to extend their service lives.

These parts operate in particularly harsh environments, and are traditionally demanding in terms of maintenance. By extending their lifespan, we naturally decrease the total cost of ownership for the engine. But the gains aren't solely financial: improvements to the high-pressure section, especially on the stator and rotor modules, enables us to streamline maintenance operations and reduce the number of times the plane is grounded for servicing, which in turn increases the engines' dispatch reliability.

The latter is generally expressed in terms of tactical air cycles, or TAC, a NATO standard that measures the number of times pilots use the throttle between inspections. On the M88-4E, we have increased TAC from 2,500 cycles to 4,000 cycles! To date, 16 Rafales have had their M88 engines retrofitted to the 4E standard, by changing out their turbine blades. Plus, two new Rafales with M88-4E engines were delivered to the French air force in December 2012.

Q: What are other possible upgrades for this engine in the coming years?

A: The TCO pack M88-4E engine clearly reflects Snecma's ability to come up with innovative maintainability solutions. Our technological leadership is based on our ability to improve engine performance, combined with input from extensive Research & Technology efforts.

For example, we're working on a technology development program called THEO, launched by the DGA in 2003. The aim is to design new parts that will enhance the efficiency of high-pressure turbines. In turn, this means higher thrust, which is a natural development for a combat aircraft engine.

We are now working on making this thrust increase compatible with the gains of the TCO pack by about 2015.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 23 Sep 2016 18:33

vaibhav.n wrote: How likely is it that the IAF will get higher thrust engines?

Zero chance. There is an intermediate thrust variant modification proposed (80-85kN) but that is in line with the time frame for an MLU, which should begin no earlier than 2025.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Sep 2016 19:36

manjgu wrote:is meteor already in IAF service? or will come with Rafale...

Meteor will arrive with the Rafale, along with the MICA. The latter should be already in service with the Mirage 2000 upgrade.

manjgu wrote:what is the degree of commonality between Rafale/M2000 ??

There is commonality, to what degree I don't know. More well informed posters should be able to tell you that.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Sep 2016 20:04

Rafale will go up to 90 over time.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 23 Sep 2016 20:41

RoyG wrote:Rafale will go up to 90 over time.

Why do you think this? I don't see how India can purchase more Rafale's and still make the necessary investments in other areas.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Sep 2016 20:45

The price should fall after this. Doesn't make sense to cap it at 36. This is like a foot in the door for Dassault.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 23 Sep 2016 21:02

TOI also mentioned SCALP "http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 478489.cms"
That is big too...so basically flying well within our territory we can flatten them with one more option...till the time Nirbhay comes(if it is very delayed )
Jingo khush hua

What do gurus here think of it as compared to Brahmos with obvious differences in range and speed

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Sep 2016 22:02

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 485007.cms
Open to manufacturing Rafale in India if bigger orders come through: Dassault CEO Eric Trappier

The French are playing for a bigger order but ....

Defence sources have made it clear that the deal for 36 Rafale jets does not come with an option clause. This means that more orders will come only through fresh talks. India had originally wanted 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft for which Rafale was shortlisted.

<snip>

The sources have said India is looking at shortlisting one more aircraft, besides Tejas, to be manufactured domestically.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 Sep 2016 22:27

It is very interesting that we asked them to move from Top Sight to Dash. Our Mig-29s (boths Ks and UPGs) have Topsights assembled by Samtel. Anyways, if we have paid the overhead of India-nization then amortize the cost by a bigger follow on order. I agree with Karan, we should get atleast 36 more, and drop this another western plane drama.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 23 Sep 2016 22:55

Sigh...
This order makes no sense at all.
Maybe MOD babus forgot that an options clause doesn't have to be exercised.
There is no downside to keeping our options open...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Sep 2016 23:19

Finally !!

From AW

NEW DELHI - India has signed a deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter aircraft equipped with the latest missiles and weapon systems at an estimated cost of about 7.75 billion euros ($8.7 billion).

Of the 36, 28 fighters will be single-seat and eight twin-seat.

The agreement for the purchase of the aircraft from Dassault Aviation was signed in the presence of visiting French Defense Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar.

The first Rafale will be delivered within 36 months, with the remaining 35 aircraft to be supplied within 60 months, an Indian Defense Ministry official said. "We have insisted on including a penalty clause should there be any delay in the delivery schedule," the official adds.

The decision to acquire 36 fighter jets in flyaway condition was conveyed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi to France's President Francois Hollande when he visited Paris in April 2015. This intent was reiterated during a visit to India by French President François Hollande in January 2016.

After a series of negotiations, the French authorities have agreed to bring down the cost to around $8.7 billion from their initial demand of $13.4 billion, the official says. That means each aircraft will cost India around 16 billion rupees.

Eric Trappier, Dassault Aviation Chairman and CEO, said: “I am honored and delighted by the decision of the Indian authorities, which gives new impetus to our partnership for the coming decades, and I thank them for their confidence. Together, Indian and French companies alike, we will endeavor to ensure ambitious industrial cooperation."

"I am certain that the Rafale and its performance will hold high the colors of the Indian air force [IAF]. It will demonstrate unstinting efficiency in protecting the people of India and the sovereignty of the world’s largest democracy”, he added.

According to official sources, the aircraft will be equipped with state-of-the-art missiles like Meteor and Scalp. Several changes have been made to the aircraft to suit India's needs. A spokesman for Meteor-maker MBDA declined to comment on weapon systems but said, "With Rafale, the IAF will be equipped with one of the world's very best fighter aircraft armed with the very best weapons."

Under the terms of the contract, France has to ensure that 27 of the 36 fighters are operationally available at any given time, the official said.

There is a 50% offset clause under which French industry will invest half the contract value back in India, which is expected to develop some expertise domestically in the aerospace sector.

Puneet Kaura, managing director and CEO of Samtel Avionics, said: "The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort in developing world class technology within the country.

"The future also holds a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is a successful transfer of technology," Kaura adds.

The Rafale deal also has an optional clause under which India can procure 18 more jets at the same price. However, Indian authorities haven't specified whether they plan to exercise the option.

Rafale was originally selected under India's Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) program to acquire 126 aircraft, which began in 2007. But as final price negotiations got too complicated, the new right-wing Indian government, which came to power in 2014, decided to go for a direct deal.

Following on from the French Mirage 2000, whose effective service with the IAF played a major role in establishing the reputation of Dassault aircraft, the Rafale was chosen by India in 2012 following a competitive bidding process initiated.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 23 Sep 2016 23:32

indranilroy wrote:It is very interesting that we asked them to move from Top Sight to Dash. Our Mig-29s (boths Ks and UPGs) have Topsights assembled by Samtel. Anyways, if we have paid the overhead of India-nization then amortize the cost by a bigger follow on order. I agree with Karan, we should get atleast 36 more, and drop this another western plane drama.

I suspect that at least some of the expense of the Indianization is a cover for other things that the governments don't want to openly discuss. That's standard practice.

I'll be happy if the order is capped at 36. If the reporting is accurate, I suspect that the government removed the option for more so the possibility can't even exist as an easy temptation.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Sep 2016 23:54

And Janes

India finally signs deal with France for 36 Rafales

India signed an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with France on 23 September in New Delhi for the purchase of 36 Dassault Rafale fighters in flyaway condition for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.82 billion).

Indian defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his visiting French counterpart, Jean-Yves Le Drian, signed the aircraft deal for the Indian Air Force (IAF) 17 months after the procurement was announced in Paris in April 2015. The IGA includes the option for 18 supplementary fighters at the same price, taking a flat 3.5% inflation rate into account.

Officials said India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) would pay 15% of the sum in advance to French aircraft manufacturer Dassault, which will begin deliveries of the fighters in 36 months and complete them in 66 months.

The MoD, however, has yet to sign the final contract with Dassault, which is responsible for offsetting 50% of the overall contract value in India through co-operation with the country's military-industrial sector.

The offsets under negotiation are expected to be split 30:20 between domestic aeronautics programmes and the licenced manufacture of Rafale-related components.

Officials said the Rafale deal includes EUR3.4 billion for the platforms and EUR710 million for the weapons package, which comprises MBDA's MICA and Meteor air-to-air missiles with strike ranges of 70 km and 150 km, respectively, and the Storm Shadow/SCALP stand-off attack missile, which has a 250-300 km range.

India is to pay EUR1.7 billion for customising the 36 Rafales to meet 14 IAF requirements, including the integration of Israeli helmet-mounted displays, as well as indigenously designed missiles and electronic warfare, datalink, and identification friend-or-foe systems.

The fighters will also be customised for SPICE bomb-guidance and range-extension kits, which the IAF plans to acquire from Israel's Rafael, IAF sources told IHS Jane's .

Aircraft spares, hangars, and two maintenance, repair, and overhaul facilities in eastern and northern India are set to cost EUR1.8 billion, while the performance-based logistics (PBL) deal for the fighters is priced at EUR353 million.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 24 Sep 2016 00:01

By many counts, IAF would have been happy with 126 Mirage 2000.
According to Rafale manufacturer and quality conscious, a pair of Rafale is equivalent to 6 Mirage 2000s.
So actually IAF got its wish come true, Rafale 36/2*6= 108 Mirage 2000s, plus 50 in inventory.

total 158 Mirage 2000s.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Sep 2016 00:02

Somewhere on Twitter I saw, the PBL has 75% availability clause.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Sep 2016 00:13

After paying 1.7 Billion Euros for customization, it only makes sense to buy more for us and allows the French to sell more units. Hope no one screws the pooch now.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 24 Sep 2016 00:15

surely rafale for india will be the most advanced ever . Meteor, RBE-2AA, SCALP, M88-4E TCO,SPECTRA EWS, DASH HMS,LITENING POD, AREOS POD, AASM, EXOCET , MICA IR and AGM-88 HARM,Paveway bombs will all make it very deadly. Barring J-20/J-31 it can kill all chinese jets. JF-17 and f-16s will be murdered. Proud day...let us now start our quest for 90+ light and inexpensive MMRCA and PAK-FA

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2016 00:22

Who's integrating the HARM? I don't think its even in production.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2016 00:28

I believe HARM is still under production. Will find a link. But I don't think we are getting that missile. The HARM is from the Khans and unless we bought the teens, no HARM will happen

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2016 00:29

Don't think Raytheon is producing new build HARM's. Orbital does the AARGM but that's a different weapon that is so far only integrated on the F/EA-18 and the Tornado.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2016 00:35

As per the manufacturer's (Raytheon) website - HARM missiles are being upgraded.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/harm/

But then there is this from May 2016...which is exactly what you said

US Navy extends Orbital ATK AGM-88E production
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-423546/

The US Navy has extended production of AGM-88E Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile (AARGM) multi-mode seekers, built by Orbital ATK, by three years to fiscal year 2023 with an added requirement for 556 more units.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2016 00:37

HARM is being upgraded as in Raytheon is getting orders for rebuilds, and AARGM is a different weapon that for a portion of the order rebuilds HARM's by replacing the seeker and guidance with a very small precentage of the production being new-builds (only those for Italy and Australia).

I don't think Raytheon is building HARM's as in producing new weapons and Orbital hasn't really looked at integrating their weapon on newer platforms, even those operated by the USAF so Rafale looks very unlikely given we haven't heard anything from them regarding this.

HARM and AARGM are different weapons with different certifications. All HARM compatible platforms have to be re certified for AARGM carriage which would mean software changes, and operational testing. Its not going to be straight forward, or cheap.

Both the USAF and USN have thousands of AGM-88's in stock that they are rebuilding. Raytheon is taking USAF stockpiles and upgrading them while the USN is replacing the seeker and guidance on its to convert HARM's to AARGM's. The only completely new built weapon will be the AARGM-ER, but that only IOC's early next decade for its launch platform so it couldn't be a part of this deal. If there were a US weapon as a part of the deal, we would have heard about it by now.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2016 00:42

Rakesh wrote:
manjgu wrote:is meteor already in IAF service? or will come with Rafale...
Meteor will arrive with the Rafale, along with the MICA. The latter should be already in service with the Mirage 2000 upgrade.

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 6238034944

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/7 ... 1768334336

Mica has been fired from an upgraded Mirage 2000I of No.1 Tigers Squadron.

IAF's Tigers squadron successfully test fires MICA missile
http://indiablooms.com/ibns_new/news-de ... ssile.html

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Sep 2016 01:03

Offset details:

Rafale deal comes with 50 per cent offset clause

Defence sources said that one main point of the offset was that 74 per cent of it has to be imported from India.

Under the offset agreement, French side has made a 30 per cent offset commitment for military aerospace research and development programmes and the rest 20 per cent for making components of Rafales here.

The offsets will be carried out by French companies Safran, Thales, MBDA and Dassault, all part of the Rafale project.

As per the initial agreed points, the French have offered to provide stealth, radar and thrust vectoring for missiles technologies besides others to DRDO and domestic defence firms.

"The French government has in principle agreed on these points under the offset commitments. Once a final contract for 36 Rafale aircraft is signed, the French government will give subject wise clearance and concrete talks will start," a defence source said.

The French have also agreed in principle to collaborate on the Kaveri engine which lacks the real power thrust needed to fly the Tejas.

An upgraded Kaveri engine with 90 kN thrust compared to the existing 72 kN can be developed with French cooperation which can eventually be used for Tejas which currently uses an American engine.

"The negotiations on offsets were carried out last year with DRDO and some other agencies. Once the contract for the Rafales is signed, there will be a six-month window to finalise the offset," a source said.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 24 Sep 2016 02:06

Wish if we can upgrade Su-30 MKI radar to be a 2000 TR module GaN AESA (with high peak power MMIC) and integrate Meteor and AWACS killer K-100 missile with it.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Sep 2016 02:18

We will get an AESA, but I am not sure if it would GaN/AlGaN on MKI upgrades. Meteor is a big NO, but Astra Mk2 is 100% sure candidate and MKI would be the test platform for it

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Sep 2016 04:35

how many simulators in the deal?

is the french harm called armat? or something similar?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2016 04:39

Lalmohan wrote:how many simulators in the deal?

is the french harm called armat? or something similar?

No Armat. See below...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARMAT

ARMAT is used on Mirage F.1, Mirage 2000 and some other French aircraft, but not with the new Dassault Rafale.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 24 Sep 2016 04:43

This mother of defence deals has also been mother of big threads. Request Moderators to close this one and open new one for IAF Rafale and implications for future fleet. This not to disrespect but it has been painful saga FWIW

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Sep 2016 05:09

Please please for one more week at least let us relish all those spice, scalps, meteors, special IRSTs and M88-E4 engines.

After all many more articles will appear over the details of deal, and you don't want Aviation Thread choked with Rafale discussion do you?

Upto 2nd October the second Navratra maybe?

titash · Post by **titash** » 24 Sep 2016 05:55

Rajat Pandit shows us how's it done

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 491180.cms

India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them

I realize the average reader by definition is "average", but still...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Sep 2016 06:09

Inn Pandit ji ka to buraa haal hai...

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 24 Sep 2016 07:04

Race to justify whopping Rafale bill

But the defence ministry's efforts today after the deal was done were directed at making a convincing case on the hugely expensive purchase. Ministry sources reasoned that the total cost of the Rafale package, complete with the aircraft, the infrastructure for them, the weapons, the training and customised systems was so good that it had already resulted in savings of 328 million euros because India drove a hard bargain

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 24 Sep 2016 07:51

Wow saving of 328 million is justified by reducing the number of aircraft to just 2 squadrons. Forget making 100+ aircraft in India, like the original deal called for. In deal the number of aircraft being made in India is ZERO.