IAF Rafale News and Discussions - 26 May 2015

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Oct 2016 16:34

^^ There are no options in the deal. Without options its looks difficult to increase Rafale numbers unless we go for full on MII deal. If GOI had intentions to increase the numbers by say 1-2 squadrons they would have kept options available. And 108 MII deal is highly unlikely. It will bankrupt IAF totally. With Su-30MKI upgrades worth 7-8B and FGFA deal on cards its highly unlikely we can afford to spend 15-20B on 108 Rafales.

maxratul · Post by **maxratul** » 03 Oct 2016 18:07

Ambanis will figure out a way to milk this. More Rafales will come, and thats not a bad thing imo.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Oct 2016 20:07

Even Safran has not shown engine R&D to match GE F414.

One can't rule out big corruption when we deal with Reliance.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Oct 2016 22:15

JayS wrote:^^ So my hope of getting anything meaningful from offsets has just died. Chita bhai will have his own cut on everything now.

This is going exactly as I had thought

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Oct 2016 23:33

Philip wrote:We should've asked for the first sqd to be transferred from French stock within 18 months and returned after new aircraft arrived.That I think was done with the Jags and first SU-30s. Until then we should try and acquire asap more aircraft of types in service to bolster our capability tx to the current crisis.One is sure that more Flankers can be acquired/leased from Ru,even more MIG-29s from existing stock. Whether the French AF have M2Ks available too.If enough aircraft to meet the reqs of two more sqds immediately,it will help considerably.

That was not done with the first Su-30s. The IAF actually bought those Su-30K and MKs, till the MKI was being developed, since they would not have been able to deliver any MKIs within 36 months.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 03 Oct 2016 23:57

^^^ Agreed.

Also when we walked away with similar deals in regards to the Jag and/or harrier. It was a diff world.

De Gaulle is deploying to the Med with a full compliment and the French Air Force is bombing and flying many missions.
There are reports of the French and British missions in support of the Offensive against Mosul in Iraq.

I don't think its going to happen.

Lack of Planning on our part is not an emergency on their side.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 04 Oct 2016 03:55

I hope that Deccan chronicle news is wrong. Ambanis getting into this can not be good. They have no experience in aerospace or engineering in general.Plenty of good companies in India but than---oh well

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2016 11:20

Now we know the truth of the high cost! The R co. was mentioned frequently during UPA-2 era as having an inside line with Dassault.With 50% offsets,a tidy $4+ biz start,with billions more in the years to come in supporting the bird.Amazing how Dassault can prefer the R co. which has never built even a paper plane to HAL who it long chastised for being "unable to handle the high tech of the Rafale"! No point in tearing one's hair out,the R co. has got the inside line into the "make in India" stakes.It earlier tied up deals with Ru for Talwar FFGs and even DCNS if I'm not mistaken.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 04 Oct 2016 11:59

That the Ambanis have no experience making anything remotely related to fighter planes, as opposed to HAL which has some capability, is precisely their strength. I mean fron Dassault's perspective. The French and the Germans in their anxiety to win industrial equipment orders from China, made the strategic mistake of entering into JVs with companies in the same line of business. A part of the conditions for JV is that the IP will be the property of the JV company. This was problematic. They didn't want to do it, at least initially. But the scope of future business was really huge. And there was the risk that if one of them didn't do it but the other did they could walk away with billions of dollars worth future equipment sales. It is a classic 'prisoner's dilemma' problem in Game Theory. They signed up calculating that when it came to export orders, customers in third world countries would prefer the original technology holder rather than the Chinese JV company. In other words if it came to a power plant equipment order from say Adanis or Tatas the latter would prefer the original Siemens equipment rather than the Shanghai Electric JV company's imitation. But as it happened the Chinese quoted such mouth watering prices everyone signed up for the copycat plant and the likes of Siemens and Alstom ended up with nothing. This was not an issue in the defence sector as the EU was anyway not selling defence items to China. But the cultural experience experience of dealing with the Chinese was strongly etched in the minds of European businesses. The defence offset clause is a variant of the JV clause in industrial equipment sales as far as IP knowhow is concerned. India wouldn't buy the Rafaels if local manufacture is not agreed to. So the Dassault would reckon that they could do business with the Ambanis rather than the HAL. The former is willing to import stuff from nominated component suppliers of Dassault and mark it up by 10% and sell it back to Dassault. Also the likes of Ambanis can never be a serious threat to exports to third parties. Would any country buy airframes from Dassault and fit it with armaments and avionics from Anil Ambani Group? But HAL would be a different proposition altogether.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 04 Oct 2016 12:17

Anyway from India's perspective here is the hierarchy
1. Some plane is better than no plane
2. High performance plane is better than obsolete plane
3. High performance plane that works in battle is better than a sanctioned hangar queen
4. High performance plane manufactured in India is better than imported
5. High performance plane designed & manufactured in India is the best

Before the Rafale deal we are at (1). Atleast we have moved to (3) and possibly (4). Of course we all wish for (5 )but given the damage from 2004-15, this is the best we can do currently

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 04 Oct 2016 17:28

I have a question.May be noob.Which is the premier Chinese fighter?J11?J16? How does Rafale compares to them?Also is Rafale the best fighter in Asia pound for pound unless someone actually flies a 5th gen one?

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 04 Oct 2016 18:04

Reliance didn't have experience in ship building as well. They bought Pipavav shipyard, completely overhauled the management, cut 50% staff and yet, they have performed remarkably well recently. They were barred from any warship building from scratch because they messed up the OPV delivery earlier. But the last one (under Reliance) they built was completed unexpectedly earlier than the schedule and with highest quality. Result, they are not barred from submitting their tenders anymore. They are now confident of building any warship in half the time it would take for any other shipyard in the country.

*I don't know if this info is publicly available so I'm not calling my source of info as chaiwala.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 18:09

Amoghvarsha wrote:I have a question.May be noob.Which is the premier Chinese fighter?J11?J16? How does Rafale compares to them?Also is Rafale the best fighter in Asia pound for pound unless someone actually flies a 5th gen one?

In terms of numbers the PLAAF still has the largest numbers of J-7 MiG 21 clones and the indigenous J-10. The Su-27s and their clones are probably the best fighters.

It is always a mistake to do a one on one comparison of 2 aircraft of opposing air forces because one on one works only in boxing matches where boxers are matched by weight and height. For too many years after information about aircraft became easy to get by the growth of the internet I have been seeing people imagine that matching fighters will somehow magically face each other. It may be that one Rafale is faced by a horde of 8 J-7s. Or one Chinese Su-27 meets 2 LCAs. Early detection and use of BVR munitions would be crucial in such an engagement

Even if two opposing air arms have F-16s facing each other - typically one set will be configured for attack - maybe with a couple of escorts while the defending F-16s will be configured for interception. The defenders have the problem that if they go after the attacking aircraft - they will be pounced upon by the escorts. If the find the escorts first and engage them the attackers may be able to make a quick ingress on the target they were coming in to attack

So if you are really a noob please don't look for easy answer of this is best and that is best.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 18:10

Reliance have experience in oil and plastics/yarn. They could be first off the mark in producing composite parts. The other point is that a new set up could invest early in futuristic tech like 3-D printing - since its a new plant and then become an all-India/world leader in producing 3-D printed components. Need to see

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 04 Oct 2016 18:18

shiv wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:I have a question.May be noob.Which is the premier Chinese fighter?J11?J16? How does Rafale compares to them?Also is Rafale the best fighter in Asia pound for pound unless someone actually flies a 5th gen one?
In terms of numbers the PLAAF still has the largest numbers of J-7 MiG 21 clones and the indigenous J-10. The Su-27s and their clones are probably the best fighters.

It is always a mistake to do a one on one comparison of 2 aircraft of opposing air forces because one on one works only in boxing matches where boxers are matched by weight and height. For too many years after information about aircraft became easy to get by the growth of the internet I have been seeing people imagine that matching fighters will somehow magically face each other. It may be that one Rafale is faced by a horde of 8 J-7s. Or one Chinese Su-27 meets 2 LCAs. Early detection and use of BVR munitions would be crucial in such an engagement

Even if two opposing air arms have F-16s facing each other - typically one set will be configured for attack - maybe with a couple of escorts while the defending F-16s will be configured for interception. The defenders have the problem that if they go after the attacking aircraft - they will be pounced upon by the escorts. If the find the escorts first and engage them the attackers may be able to make a quick ingress on the target they were coming in to attack

So if you are really a noob please don't look for easy answer of this is best and that is best.

Then how to compare fighters?How did the IAF select Rafale over Typhoon or Shornet?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Oct 2016 18:40

OK chief! ask for the same exceptional qualities in LCA Mk2 and AMCA. You will get it!

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/rafa ... 80028.html

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 04 Oct 2016 19:04

A greenfield private manufacturing plant will hire talent from all over the world including from India and get things going. But the issue is whether Anil Ambani has the temperament to go in for slow-mo high tech manufacturing compared to high buzz world of financial manipulations? I have no doubt that they can do it if they want to. All pvt companies in South Korea and Israel started as Green field projects with the support of the Govt.

Frankly I think that Govt should invite private sector to manufacturer 200 LCA Mark-2. The rate offered should be same as bid for Gripen NG in Brazil and Indian Competitons. As per open Source info, Gripen NG bid around US$ 6 Billion for 36 Gripen alongwith spare-parts (30 years?) in Brazil. Similarly we should call for Reverse bids from Private Sector starting from US$ 45 Billion to manufacture and support 200 LCA Mark-2 of IAF and 40 LCA Mark-2 for Navy for 30 years.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 04 Oct 2016 19:09

Amoghvarsha wrote:I have a question.May be noob.Which is the premier Chinese fighter?J11?J16? How does Rafale compares to them?

Simply put... its better. Better reliability. Superior EW system. Lower RCS. In most other respects, the gap is much narrower against the latest variants of the J-10 & J-11.

Comparing aircraft however doesn't change the force structure. As per the current plan, the IAF is scheduled to receive -

2017-2019: 15 x Su-30 + 8 x Tejas
2019-2023: 6 x Rafale + 12 x Tejas

Deliveries to the PLAAF meanwhile are estimated to already be upwards of 80 fighters annually.

2019: 25-30 x J-11D/J-16s + 36 x J-10Bs + 24 x JH-7Bs.

That should illustrate why an increase in the Tejas production rate as well as an additional tranche of Su-30s is essential (in addition to whatever else is bought through the Make-in-India program).

Also is Rafale the best fighter in Asia pound for pound unless someone actually flies a 5th gen one?

Bit late for that...

Also, the first production J-20s will probably be delivered to the PLAAF by 2018 (its already in serial production), though it'll take a while for the type to achieve maturity.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 04 Oct 2016 19:18

Amoghvarsha wrote: Then how to compare fighters?How did the IAF select Rafale over Typhoon or Shornet?

Multi-role capability, type of avionics, whether avionics and weapons systems can be matched to existing Indian systems, will the supplier help with that, reliability of aircraft as a whole, reliability of engines, time between essential maintenance service, ease of maintenance nd change of parts, cost, suitability in Indian conditions like ability to operate with a big load taking off from Rajasthan at 50 deg C or Leh at a "hot" 15 deg C. Start after a cold soak of -25 deg C. Range. Fuel efficiency. Infrastructure needed to be built in India to maintain and support. Cost of same. Whether the aircraft can operate in pretty much any Indian conditions from any Indian airfield, actual flying performance under tough Indian conditions, actual weapons delivery performance, actual performance of avionic in Indian conditions, interoperability with other Indian aircraft to name what I can think of.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 04 Oct 2016 20:35

Thank You Saars for the detailed answers.Much Appreciated.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 04 Oct 2016 20:37

Viv S wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:I have a question.May be noob.Which is the premier Chinese fighter?J11?J16? How does Rafale compares to them?
Simply put... its better. Better reliability. Superior EW system. Lower RCS. In most other respects, the gap is much narrower against the latest variants of the J-10 & J-11.

Comparing aircraft however doesn't change the force structure. As per the current plan, the IAF is scheduled to receive -

2017-2019: 15 x Su-30 + 8 x Tejas
2019-2023: 6 x Rafale + 12 x Tejas

Deliveries to the PLAAF meanwhile are estimated to already be upwards of 80 fighters annually.

2019: 25-30 x J-11D/J-16s + 36 x J-10Bs + 24 x JH-7Bs.

That should illustrate why an increase in the Tejas production rate as well as an additional tranche of Su-30s is essential (in addition to whatever else is bought through the Make-in-India program).

Also is Rafale the best fighter in Asia pound for pound unless someone actually flies a 5th gen one?
Bit late for that...

Also, the first production J-20s will probably be delivered to the PLAAF by 2018 (its already in serial production), though it'll take a while for the type to achieve maturity.

Is the J20 engine any good?Or will it be the same,fly 2hours and overhaul 2hrs model,you get the drift right.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2016 22:42

Rafale jets ‘exceptional’, IAF will like to have more of it, says IAF’s Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... a-3065206/

“Any air force will be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class which is in mid-weight category. In terms of its weapons capability, air-to-air missiles, beyond visual range, air-to-ground, its avionics, instrumentation and warfare suite, it is exceptional and one of the leading aircraft of the current generation,” Raha said.

Asked if 18 more aircraft would be procured, he said, “Well, we would like to have more. But it is a decision that will be taken in the near future.”

“It is better in terms of price, performance-based logistics, missiles among others,” he said on the Rafale deal in comparison to the MMRCA tender and deals signed by France with other countries in world.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Oct 2016 23:03

This is one air force that enjoys shiny new imported toys even though they cost an arm an leg to buy, and an arm and leg for a MLU. So $8 billion to buy and $16 billion to upgrade - without engines? Maybe one day all of the GDP can be directed to the ACM's fancies of "exceptional" imported aircraft while the rest of the country remains jobless.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Oct 2016 08:17

Vivek: The armed forces - unlike in Pakistan - is subject to the govt in power. If the govt felt that that the Rafale was too expensive to buy, they would not buy it. The deal for 36 aircraft has been signed. The good air chief has expressed his wish. However the air chief's view on additional Rafales is not necessarily the govt's view. The air chief is entitled to air his opinions. Every military chief in the world envisions having state of the art military equipment. After four decades in military service anyone will think like that. There is nothing wrong in what he has said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Oct 2016 10:23

Full report of COAS' remarks.
http://defencenews.in/article/Rafale-Fi ... Chief-8502

Rafale Fighter Jets ‘Exceptional’, IAF will like procure more of it :: IAF Chief

Tuesday, October 04, 2016
By: Indian Express
IAF chief Arup Raha also spoke about the "unsolicited offers" that India has received from Boeing, Saab and Locheed Martin to manufacture fighters in India and said the best deal will be selected.

Describing the Rafale fighter jets as “exceptional”, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha on Tuesday said the force would like to have more of the aircraft and insisted that the recently signed contract for 36 fighters was better than other such deals.

He also spoke about “unsolicited offers” that India has received from Boeing, Saab and Locheed Martin to manufacture fighter aircraft in India and said the company which offers the best deal will be selected.

He said Saab’s Gripen is a “good fighter” as compared to others like F-16 of Lockheed Martin but the decision will depend on many factors.
* ( So the GRipen has a tighter "grip" ,pardon the pun,on the second line than the aging US beauties.

“Any air force will be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class which is in mid-weight category. In terms of its weapons capability, air-to-air missiles, beyond visual range, air-to-ground, its avionics, instrumentation and warfare suite, it is exceptional and one of the leading aircraft of the current generation,” Raha said.

Asked if 18 more aircraft would be procured, he said, “Well, we would like to have more. But it is a decision that will be taken in the near future.”

The 7.878 billion Euros (Rs 59,000 crore) deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets was signed on September 23. The new planes will give a big boost to IAF’s defence and strike power.

The most important aspect of the deal, apart from the fact that the Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter jet, is the firepower that India is getting in the form of long-range and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles.

Rafale jets will come equipped with state-of-the-art missiles such as Meteor and Scalp. Meteor is a BVR air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150km.

“It is better in terms of price, performance-based logistics, missiles among others,” he said on the Rafale deal in comparison to the MMRCA tender and deals signed by France with other countries in world.

On the induction of light combat aircraft Tejas, he said it would be done in six squadrons, including the upgraded version.
He said the next version called Tejas ‘Mark-A’ would come with better radar, weapons, avionics, and its production will start in 2021.
* (Won't it be bordering upon obsolescence by then?)
Raha also said IAF would also be upgrading the Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jets besides the Jaguar.

On the integration of BrahMos missiles with the Sukhoi 30 MKI, Raha said, “We hope to fire a live missile in three months.”

The IAF chief, who heads the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CoSC), a body of the three service chiefs, said he hoped the government would resolve the issues of the 7th Pay Commission and that the forces have decided to implement it based on the government’s assurances.

Will · Post by **Will** » 05 Oct 2016 12:24

nandakumar wrote:That the Ambanis have no experience making anything remotely related to fighter planes, as opposed to HAL which has some capability, is precisely their strength. I mean fron Dassault's perspective. The French and the Germans in their anxiety to win industrial equipment orders from China, made the strategic mistake of entering into JVs with companies in the same line of business. A part of the conditions for JV is that the IP will be the property of the JV company. This was problematic. They didn't want to do it, at least initially. But the scope of future business was really huge. And there was the risk that if one of them didn't do it but the other did they could walk away with billions of dollars worth future equipment sales. It is a classic 'prisoner's dilemma' problem in Game Theory. They signed up calculating that when it came to export orders, customers in third world countries would prefer the original technology holder rather than the Chinese JV company. In other words if it came to a power plant equipment order from say Adanis or Tatas the latter would prefer the original Siemens equipment rather than the Shanghai Electric JV company's imitation. But as it happened the Chinese quoted such mouth watering prices everyone signed up for the copycat plant and the likes of Siemens and Alstom ended up with nothing. This was not an issue in the defence sector as the EU was anyway not selling defence items to China. But the cultural experience experience of dealing with the Chinese was strongly etched in the minds of European businesses. The defence offset clause is a variant of the JV clause in industrial equipment sales as far as IP knowhow is concerned. India wouldn't buy the Rafaels if local manufacture is not agreed to. So the Dassault would reckon that they could do business with the Ambanis rather than the HAL. The former is willing to import stuff from nominated component suppliers of Dassault and mark it up by 10% and sell it back to Dassault. Also the likes of Ambanis can never be a serious threat to exports to third parties. Would any country buy airframes from Dassault and fit it with armaments and avionics from Anil Ambani Group? But HAL would be a different proposition altogether.

I am a big fan of the Rafale but when the MMRCA tender was called off I did mention that it was just a way of getting the Ambani's in through the back door as the then tender didn't allow the vendor to choose their partner and Dassault didn't want to partner HAL.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 17:38

Do we think that the original plan for 126 Rafales will be carried through?

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 05 Oct 2016 18:16

I don't care who French ties to bring and deliver the offset. It would be Ambani, Tata, Mahindra, Kalyani etc. As long as it comes and it is delivered.

Amabani's may not have experience in aerospace right now, but they did not have experience in petrochemical, communication before they got into it. They have project management skills that few have in India.

HAL book is full and they have several things going on, this private capacity will help the nation eventually.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 18:21

I would trust the PVT companies to invest in R&D and develop their own programs much faster than DRDO. The whole archaic sarkari process is bypassed in a pvt company, project management is very tight.

The thing is that GoI will mandate security and secrecy measures of the Pvt companies that it itself is unable to implement at its OFBs or DRDO. The pvt companies will grit, bite the bullet and still deliver world class products.
It is GoI which has to have a mindset change

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 05 Oct 2016 18:28

Do we think that the original plan for 126 Rafales will be carried through?

Personally, only if no other production line is set up, that is F1X/Gripen.
I am not in favour of Gripen, but would like to see production line for F1X, get the major player on the soil, it will expedite building MIC faster. Otherwise French product will always be more costlier and Russian technically behind.

Eventually Indian R&D has to catch up, and have to have its own design, components can be from anywhere, like LCA/AMCA/ALH/LCH etc.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 05 Oct 2016 18:35

Gagan wrote:...
The thing is that GoI will mandate security and secrecy measures of the Pvt companies that it itself is unable to implement at its OFBs or DRDO. The pvt companies will grit, bite the bullet and still deliver world class products.
It is GoI which has to have a mindset change

Spot on. The Babudom will go into overdrive to ensure the hurdles are higher.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Oct 2016 20:17

we seem to be talking of Reliance as one unit in all fields

we have Motabhais reliance and chotabhais reliance (ADAG??)

Chotabhais track record is suspect-

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 20:33

International Media buzz on French-India Rafael deal !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBfbAabLS4c

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Oct 2016 20:49

What we should ask the French for along with the Rafale is the ASMP ALCM missile. Although the French use this for strategic purposes, India can use the same as a conventional PGM. At a third of the weight of the Brahmos, it would add to the platform's potency and stand off fire power. Along with the Brahmos on the MKI and other land based PGM's, it would be a potent threat to PLA and PLAAF assets in Tibet.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 05 Oct 2016 21:25

We are getting the SCALP. It should serve well as a stand off weapon, given that we have no weapons in that class in our inventory.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Oct 2016 21:27

ShauryaT: The ASMP-A will not come. The French will not part with it.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 21:31

DRDO has a project that looks very similar to the ASMP

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Oct 2016 21:42

Thanks Gagan. Now that Shaurya can and will happen.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 05 Oct 2016 23:13

^Thanks all for responses.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Oct 2016 17:12

I was wondering, as to the possible equipment, we might get as India specific changes worth Euro 1700 million = Rs. 12500 crores. Some of them can be:-

Towed decoys
DIRCM
Satellite Comms
Integration with Indian weapons
More powerful engines - seems unlikely to me

What are the possible strategic ToT returns:-

Engine Technology
Tech for UCAV Aurora
IR sensor Array
Missile RF seeker
Assistance in AMCA etc etc