Came to the conclusion that
We should consider Paki proliferation as an internal affair of United states, Also give Padma Shri o Abdul Xerox Khan.
Think of the advantege of doing it.
Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Folks>> I was driving to Columbus OH, and after deep reflection.
Came to the conclusion that
We should consider Paki proliferation as an internal affair of United states, Also give Padma Shri o Abdul Xerox Khan.
Think of the advantege of doing it.
Came to the conclusion that
We should consider Paki proliferation as an internal affair of United states, Also give Padma Shri o Abdul Xerox Khan.
Think of the advantege of doing it.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Islamabad rejects Sinha's stance
-------------------------------------
.......Islamabad on Friday rejected Indian assertion that probe into nuclear proliferation was not an internal issue of Pakistan and said being a responsible nuclear state it would never proliferate.
“The investigations in Pakistan are an internal matter. The buck stops here in Pakistan. The matter won’t be debated elsewhere. Pakistan is already cooperating with the IAEA. Therefore, Mr Sinha’s advice in this regard is gratuitous,” said the Foreign Office spokesman Masood Khan while talking to The Nation.
“We do not disagree with Mr Sinha that all nuclear capable states, including India, should behave in a responsible manner,” he added.
Pakistan is a responsible nuclear state. It is fully aware of its responsibilities and obligations. The Government of Pakistan has never proliferated and will never proliferate, he said..............
URL
-------------------------------------------
These guys are really hilarious.
-------------------------------------
.......Islamabad on Friday rejected Indian assertion that probe into nuclear proliferation was not an internal issue of Pakistan and said being a responsible nuclear state it would never proliferate.
“The investigations in Pakistan are an internal matter. The buck stops here in Pakistan. The matter won’t be debated elsewhere. Pakistan is already cooperating with the IAEA. Therefore, Mr Sinha’s advice in this regard is gratuitous,” said the Foreign Office spokesman Masood Khan while talking to The Nation.
“We do not disagree with Mr Sinha that all nuclear capable states, including India, should behave in a responsible manner,” he added.
Pakistan is a responsible nuclear state. It is fully aware of its responsibilities and obligations. The Government of Pakistan has never proliferated and will never proliferate, he said..............
URL
-------------------------------------------
These guys are really hilarious.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Mushy Press Conference: from 10min to 25 min
(all text within paranthesis my own comments).
===========================================
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
(all text within paranthesis my own comments).
===========================================
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Now, it is the turn of the SD tamasha.
Powell to quiz Musharraf.
This cover-up is going to absurd lengths.
Powell to quiz Musharraf.
This cover-up is going to absurd lengths.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Here are the combined transcripts till now. This represents about 6 manhours of work and hopefully, they would not be 6 manhours wasted. We have the full transcripts from the start till about 1 hour and 18.50 minutes into the conference. Another 14 minutes or so remains to be transcribed. Any volunteers?
==============================================
<Start of the conference>
Ladies & Gentlemen, it is indeed my pleasure in addressing you and answering you, whatever question you have. But since this is a mixed gathering , or although it is a mixed gathering, I am compelled to speak in my mother tongue, Urdu, because what I am going to talk is more for the domestic audience. But wherever important I will indicate and also turn into English.
[Urdu begin]
This is a very historic conference, this conference, many things have happened, many historic things have happened and I haven’t met you in a while. Therefore I thought that this is an opportunity where I come in front of you and talk with you freely.
Gentlemen, Pakistan at this time, in my opinion is standing at a fork in the road. I have said this many times but I would like to repeat, because I am not merely talking empty, this is correct, this is indeed.
On one side, this fork is such that on one side we can make progress, prosperity, development and towards happiness we can go, if we adopt the correct path and keep going. Because we are at that stage to be able to go along that path. On the other side if we leave the correct path, keep going backwards, especially a defeatist mentality, a tendency of negativism and cyinicism if we adopt, if we keep crying over ourselves, and leaving the correct path, a downward path is also clear for us which I think our coming generations will never forgive. Because in my view there is an opportunity, this opportunity was never there before, and we are wasting this opportunity.
In this state of affairs, at this fork in the road our country is standing. Upon us, internationally there have been four accusations. This also I have told many times. But I will like to repeat again. First, that whatever is happening in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan. Whatever is happening in IHK, Indian held Kashmir, that also is happening from Pakistan. Whatever nuclear proliferation has happened, that also has happened from Pakistan. And internally Pakistan is a terrorist, extremeist and fundamentalist society. These four negative perceptions are common in the world. I am telling this with full confidence, I have just returned from abroad, and approximately met all the media leaders of the world, in Davos. All of them ask me this same question. Definitely I keep on giving clarifications. Deinitely I keep trying to protect Pakistan.
[Urdu end]
[English begin]
Today I am not going to talk on these four issues. Today I will talk only on nuclear proliferation. I am talking only on nuclear proli… (fumbles for correct pronunciation), proliferation. I am not talking of anything else. But I would accept question on Kashmir also. Because this is the Kashmir day, 5th of February, and I have just come back from Muzaffarabad, aftyer addressing Azad J&K assembly and council, and I have spoken my mind there. Whoever has heard it, or whatever points you have, I would be too glad to answer questions on nuclear proliferation, nuclear aspect and Kashmir. But I am talking only of nuclear proliferation. [English end]
[Urdu begin]
Nowadays in all international media, talk is of nuclear proliferation, all the time CNN, BBC, any, anywhere in the world, these same talks are taking place. And Pakistan and Pakistan’s scientists are at the centerstage. It is also being said that Pakistan is a main source, hub, of nuclear proliferation activity. It is regrettable that one can see in many of our local media, that even they are pushing this forward that, government is also involved, military are also involved, scientists too, and also that scientists are not but govt and army are. They perhaps don’t realize that what could be the consequence of these things. Do they do this knowingly, or taking instructions from outside, or else they have no sense. In any case I would like to tell you for your understanding what could happen.
If government is involved, first thing, UN security council could apply sanctions on us. And in this vein if you look at N. Korea, and remember Iran and Libya. Look at this also who used to talk big, and now who have genuflected, who are lying supine, remember this too. Pardons are being asked, who is asking for pardons, we or others? Second thing is this, that people say that we are irresponsible government, so sign CTBT, NPT and rollback. Third thing, there are a few rouge states, we could join them too. The government doesn’t know how to do anything, so lets declare them rougues. And fourth thing, it can happen, that our vital national interests come under physical danger.
This I have told you upfront, these dangers are. We, our community, if its wants to get into this, then lets go, let me join you too. Lets move forward, (lets see) which way we will come out.
Where critical national interests are facing dire consequences, as they are now, there emotional, parochial, political (considerations) should be given up. We should work with seriousness. After thinking decisions should be made and actions taken. First of all (above all), actions for Pakistan should be taken. In the minds t one thing we should have, Pakistan. What we need to save, what we need justo take forward. This is not the time for emotionalism, neither for politics.
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
This can be divided into two periods. Pre 98, post 98, covert and overt. There was a covert period during which we had to hide everything, we had to hide it from the world and move forward. What is a better way to hide something from the world, to move forward? Courage was needed, passion was needed, and intelligence was needed. Now what happened in this period? India did its own nuclear test in 74. And tilted the equilibrium of deterrence. There was equilibrium in conventional, they brought a non-conventional disequilibrium. We had to fix that.
So, in 1976, Dr. A.Q. Khan came to Pakistan. His work started in June 1976. I give its full credit to Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto sahib that he initiated this program. To maintain our deterrence level he started a program. But in 1977 July it ended! He got separated (reference to his being hanged?). In this one year other than finding a location, selecting a location, and starting the construction activity, nothing else happened. You can judge yourself in one year, here (incomprehensible part) also keep getting made. So this job was done. And during this period who was there? Mr. Bhutto was there and Mr. A.Q. Khan was there. And no one else knew. This is a good thing, a correct thing, this I am not saying that this is wrong. It was a correct method(?).
Then the period of Mr. Zia started. After 1977, and who was dealing then, now I accelerate a bit, who was dealing? Zia, president Zia, and A.Q. Khan. He was the president, he was the army chief. Two men. For seven assistants, for financial control, Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan perhaps used to get involved, for the finances. And one staff officer was there, Gen Zamin I think, Major General Zamin, Zamin Naqvi, he was involved. That’s all. But directly actually president and Mr. A.Q. Khan, scientists.
After that, post Zia period came, during which Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan became president. Then Benazir, then Nawaz Sharif, then again Benazir, again Nawaz Sharif, in this Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Mr. Leghari and Mr. Tarar (were presidents). And during this time everything, president, army chief and scientists, period. Neither government was involved nor the army was involved. Only during General Waheed’s(sp?) time, there is a (post of) director general combat development of army in GHQ, Major General (Waheed) was (that) during that time. He was included as a staff officer, since the organization had grown, to deal with it collectively a Major Genral was brought in. So that he keeps on dealing with the chief. Army was not involved. I myself was sitting in GHQ as the Director General Military operations, I was not involved, I did not know what was going on. Directly, president, army chief, director general combat development, scientific organization. No government, no army, no navy or air force.
This was the pre covert period that I have talked about. During that period this was happening. This was an excellent way to maintain secrecy, and to carry the program forward. I congratulate all the presidents, all the army chiefs, that they kept this secret. They showed determination, they demonstrated resolve, and due to Allah’s mercy they kept taking this program forward. They didn’t come under any pressure. Since it was a secretive program. I congratulate all of them.
Now, post 98, we became a nuclear state, accepted, declared. We didn’t have any need to hide anymore. Thats why I formed the national command authority, strategic plan division, army- navy-air force strategic force command was formed. Now, government’s hand is there, army’s hand is there. If something comes out now, then I am responsible. As much government is responsible, so much I am responsible. If anything happens now.
Therefore we should have it clear that the correct method during the covert period, pre 98, this sequence has gone on…covert, this..moved in a clandestine way. During which total financial autonomy, administrative autonomy, security autonomy, was held by the organization. Then, to say this that, how did it happen..? Security was under the organization itself. No one else was checking. Money, total financial, there was no external audit. Local audit, own, internal audit. And I tell you this was the correct way. Because otherwise perhaps we wouldn’t have advanced.
Therefore, I have given this so much time to it due to this reason, gentlemen, that I could prove to you, that it is absolutely true that neither the government is involved nor the govt officials are involved nor the army is involved. And given the maximum autonomy, clandestine covert operation, financial autonomy, administrative autonomy and security autonomy, everything that has happened could have happened. And this is surely what has happened. Now it can’t happen.
One more wild accusation, they say, what is this investigation, how has it been done, it hasn’t been brought up in the assembly, no one was told, it wasn’t debated upon, it hasn’t come out on TV, there haven’t been any charges that have been formulated. These is useless type of talk. Whenever there is any accusation, and that too of such a sensitive matter, then do we go and announce it on the radio? Obviously there is secrecy. Why should we tell, we are not going to tell. Since we don’t know what the facts are. So, unless I get those facts, why should I tell anyone else? Since there are such big names involved. And in any case the case hasn’t even started. Then what charges? There are no charges. The case hasn’t even started. A preliminary investigation is going on. Do we not understand this? And when the preliminary investigation was completed then FIR was lodged, now there is an FIR. And now when I made the decision, that is now, now ask me what it is. Now I will tell you. I will freely tell you.
Now I would like to give a brief background of this case. This mid 2003, IAEA inspectors had gone to Iran. Under pressure Iran allowed them, obviously. And they saw centrifuges there. They were shown those centrifuges. And they saw this that those centrifuges were Pakistani (dramatic voice), of Pakistani design. And this is correct. They had a contamination in them too, you might have read in the newspapers. It is possible those went from here itself.
After that there was pressure, full. Those whose (great) examples people used to mention here, they genuflected! We were named. Scientists were named. After that even Libya followed. Genuflecting. They stuffed boxes full of data and gave away. “Here are sir, Pakistan’s”.
In this situation, when these developments were taking place, we moved very fast. We immediately started our investigation, obviously secret, and we found that no government involvement is there. Some individuals are involved. Yes, they are involved. Completely involved. Initial enquiry has been done. Debriefing they said, I said again and again, who has come up with this term “debriefing”, lets cut this, lets call his an investigation, I don’t know from where this has come. Anyway, someone used it once, and it kept on going, now only “debriefing” is happening. In any case call it debriefing, or call it an investigation, call it an enquiry, whatever, I don’t care for the terminology. Eleven people are involved amongst whom is Dr. A.Q. Khan. Against him this whole investigation has been done. And let me tell you this also for your pleasure, that Mirza Aslam Beg and Jehangir Keramt were also debriefed.
These all investigations we ourselves have done, Pakistanis have done it. Not a single person came from outside. No coercion has been used. Unnecessary talks, this is this, this is that. All of them are sitting totally alright, healthy. There is nothing like that. Since all the evidence is documentary who can deny it? We can put it in front of their faces and say look! All, there is nothing like that (coercion), all the investigations have been completed.
Findings… unfortunate,.. all proliferation, … unfortunately,… under the supervision or orders of Dr. A.Q.
No government official, no military man, is not involved. This I tell you with full faith(?). This started in eighties, proliferation, and A.Q. Khan retired in 2001, and it ended around that time. Another thing that came out, is that a whole underworld is involved. And it makes sense, we have also made our demonstrable force, that too we haven’t been buying things openly. Obviously there is an underworld, and Pakistan should not be blamed for this. And if we look, all the atomic powers of the world in the beginning have been made with the help of the underworld. We have made it with the help of underworld, so has India. No one can pinpoint Pakistan. Underworld is there, which is there also in European countries, Asian countries, and there is a whole web, in details of which I don’t wish to go. But where there is a root in Pakistan, the fabrication is taking place in European and other countries, and Dubai is the transportation center. So this is an underworld that is functioning. It is functioning from here. Those European countries are involved, their people are involved, and Pakistanis are also involved. These are the findings.
I want to deduce this, that whoever takes this in a very light mood, that what if proliferation has happened, it has happened amongst the muslim brothers. Then one is not a muslim brother really (North Korea). And the other (proliferation) that has happened amongst the muslim brothers, lets look at the consequence of giving it to them. They didn’t ask us when they named us! So I want to say this that above all there is Pakistan. Forget all others. Don’t have erroneous ideas. If we have to be saved, if we have to bring power, and if we have to stay, stay here, then we should learn a lesson.
Now some say that we are undermining the heroes. I would like to answer this. That I have heroes too, (A.Q. Khan) is my hero too, has always been, he is even now. He is, because he has made Pakistan a great power. This Dr. A.Q. Khan has made. No one can negate this, no one can cancel this, no one can prove this wrong. This is the reality. Prestige and (incomprehensible) only this hero has given us.
But when I sit down to philosophize this issue, when we have such kinds of heroes, he is Dr. A.Q., we make them larger than life. We seat them on our heads (a phrase in Urdu meaning giving great respect). We praise them to sky. A larger than life, higher than human level. But they remain a human being. Then one feels sorry, feels sad, feels angry, feels pained, that this larger than life figure has made mistakes. Since even he is a human being like us. This is the reality. [Urdu end]
[English begin]The only question then arises “Is Pakistan important or is the hero important” (dramatic voice). Pakistan is important. My job here, number one, protect my nation. And number two, protect the honor and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. [English end]
[Urdu begin] This can’t happen that in trying to save the hero I destroy the country. I won’t do that. Whatever dangers come upon me, this can’t happen.
Is pakistan important or the hero important. Pakistan is important. My job here is #1 protect my nation and #2 protect the honour and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. Its not possible that while saving the hero I destroy the nation. This will not happen. Even if there is some danger on myself - this will not happen. So this is the reality. This is the dilemma. This is how I spent my Eid - in this dilemma, this reality. Lets leave these matters alone for a while . What happened was that Dr AQ Sahab confessed his guilt what you watched on tv. And then people started talking about this - that somebody forced him to, to save the nation but in reality nothing like that happened. I have told you everything. What I have said is the truth. There is not a single bit of falsity in his confession. He has erred. But he is our hero. There is no pressure on us. Nobody is telling me to punish him, release him, or do this or that. NcA convenes, we sit together, we talk about it, we talk for 4 hours and then we take a decision and we work accordingly. We work to the best of our intelligence and abilities. Nobody tells us. Nobody calls us over telephone, not even once. We will do as we feel like what we decide. NCA has considered, cabinet meeting has been convened and have recommended pardon and as a president I have decided to pardon Dr AQ as he is our national hero but he has commited some errors which is unfortunate but still I have decided to pardon him. I have said something that is very lengthy.
In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, we follow a very open media policy and we have given maximum liberty to opposition. They talk anything. But you must understand. Pakistan comes first. It is unfortunate that we bring politics into everything (zatiyat main siyasat ??) and even in sensitive issues (like nuclear) in which we discussed already what can happen, we do the same things over there too. Then when I say national interest people write it in inverted commas and say what is this guy talking about "national interest", "national interest". If we dont understand this much that what is national interest - that my friend if you prove that this proliferation has been done by govt and military then what will happen is that we will become a rogue state and get sanctions applied. If we dont understand this then what else do we understand. One thing I would like to point out is that this is wrong. At least dont talk rubbish. In fact I would go that extent that even if this is true, you should not do this. Even then you should understand national interest. What I am trying to tell you, that Iran and Libya gave away all papers. What is happening there ? What is the media doing there ? Everything has been rolled back. Everything is finished. Tell me what is their media doing. Are they shouting ? Is the population crying ? They understand national interest.... That maybe this was in national interest and they are sitting quietly. And here even though things are alrite people are trying to falsify it and drown(harm) national interest. That is all that I have to say.
I will take questions.
Some announcer : Ladies and gentlemen may I request you to identify yourself. Please wait to be recognised.
Some bearded guy (kinda old) around 50:12 : I am saying one thing, Musharraf Saheb. In the past 4 years you have pulled the nation out of many a calamity and have taken us towards the road to progress and recently by promoting-jamhooriyat(dunno what this means) you have done such an immense favour to the quam that the quam is never going to forget. I have one question, Sir. That Dr Abdul Qadder has confessed to you and the nation and you have forgiven him but do you think this matter will come to end here ??
Musharraf : You leave that to me. At this time we have decided. NCA has decided. Cabinet has decided. That this is the decision. Now, Insha-allah, I stand between Dr AQ Sahib and International-Whatever-that comes. Inshaallah nothing will happen.
Simon Somebody from Reuters.. around 51:59 : You told us that no military officials were involved. But many people remain to be convinced about this fact. And there are 3 things that Pakistan might be asked to do to convince people that this is indeed the case. One of those would be to hand over all of the documents to the IAEA and give them all of the evidence. The second which is being asked by some pakistani politician (Mush seen writing some notes down) is a full independent investigation into this which looks into the military's role. And the third thing which is being asked for in an editorial in washington post is for pakistan to submit to UN supervision of its weapons program. I would ask you if any of those, how you would respond to any of those three suggestions to convince those of that the military is indeed not involved.
Musharraf : Negative to all the three of them. We dont do that. (looks pretty p1ssed). We are an independent nation. Nobody comes in and checks our things. We check them ourselves. There are europeans involved. Have you gone and asked them ? That the same thing should be done there also. That they should submit their documents. That the govt should come forward and get the united nations there. Have you asked them this ? This is a soverign country (pumping fists) . Nobody, no document will be given. No independent investigations will take place here and we will not have the united nations coming in here but if anyone in the IAEA wants to come here and ask us and come and discuss what else have we found and investigate it by all means we are open and we will tell them everything. And let me also say you should see what the US is saying, what other countries are saying , leave the media aside and see their official comments. So certainly all these countries have found out, they have investigated , they have investigated the underworld. Everyone is at the moment investigating the underworld and we know the reality and they know the reality. They know that the govt is not involved. They know that the military is not involved. And that is enough for us. It is the media who is saying whatever you are saying.
Around 54:27
Another old spectacled guy : The rest of the 10 involved, in this proliferation, that they had done all this on Dr Khan's orders, is their fate decided or is yet to be decided.
Musharraf : First of all, we had to do the toughest job, which we have concluded. We have yet to decide on the others. But I do want to say that I am seeing their relatives - they appear on TV and cry and I also know that many politicians are backing them up and these politicians enfuriate them . Nobody should pressurise us. Ek to choree , doosra sinaajoree. (Roughly -> robbing and then chest-thumping ?). I would like to tell the relatives of these people who might be listening right now. First you should ask you father and your brother that when they were out to sell pakistan and put pakistan in this mess - where were they. Is that their character ? Go and ask your father or brother. And as to what are we going to do with them, we will make a decision on that . It needs some though. Its not such a simple matter. Because we have accepted Dr Sahab's mercy petition . We will have to see what should be done to them. But we will take a realistic stand and whatever govt decides we will have to do. So far we have not decided. But the politicians behind them should really get their act together (baaz aa janaa chahiye).
Around 56:16
Questioner : My name is Salim Bukhari and I am editor of "News" newspaper. Sir, the concern you have told us about regarding pakistan , there cannot be 2 opinions on that (kinda like no question about that) but for common people, those who also feel for pakistan the nation, is that the investigation you are doing - wont those things be used against us as evidence. The people who I have talked to say that today the US is stuck in Afghanistan and so they are taking all of this a little easily but are there any guarantees, if the words are bad please forgive me, have you considered things in that direction or not.
Musharraf (57:09) : No I wont mind at all. Just got a little sentimiental . But you can ask. Look, at this time we are facing 4 kinds of misperceptions, 4 very strong negative perceptions, that whatever is happening in afghanistan is from here, kashmir, internally we are extremists and fundamentalists. If we dont address these perceptions as I have already said then due to any reason , then people are just looking for excuses, excuses to catch us and squeeze us. You will hand over the excuse to them. That is the reason I am saying that if we walk on the right path then nobody is asking us to stop anything.. Nothing is happening. We just have to tell the world that we are a responsible state. We are against terrorism. We dont want Al Qaeda and Taliban here . We are going to go against them . And we are firm against them . We are looking for a resolution on Kashmir in a peaceful manner which is happening right now. Our society is moderate. Its not an extremist and toleratant(freudian slip?) society. If we just do this , Inshallah nobody is going to do anything to us. Otherwise there is the danger, the one you are talking about.
Questioner (Around 58:48) : Mr President Mujahid Brelvi (?). Sir you said that whatever has been going on. Dr Khan on the peopl under his supervision have been doing - this question keeps rising in many people's minds that our (intelligence) institutions have been strong. Even keep and eye on political activities. Even our state is not a banana republic but whatever has been happening - Dr Khan and his 11 accomplices have been doing - Why did these institutions keep their eyes closed . Arent they responsible also ? And if they are then should we investigate them just as you said Mirza Aslam Beg and Jahangir Karamat have been investigated. The other heads of agencies - are we going to question them ?
Musharraf (59:36) : You are absolutely right. There are definitely going to be doubts in people's minds. I completely agree that people are going to doubt but I did give a pretty lengthy explanation about this but I am going to give you another one at a different angle so that you understand. Thing is that there is this organisation, for example KRL, it was Dr Khan's org. There is work going on there. What is the security like ? One retired soldier or brigadier goes there and he gets to be in command over there. He reports to him (Dr Khan). He is indebted to him . He gets paid by him . He is going to get promoted by him. After retirement or service , its there that he is going to get a job. Thats one thing. Second thing. If I am a boss of some place and I am taking something away from there then is a guard going to check me out ? Would anybody even dare to check my car ? Thats the other thing. Third thing is that this knowledge that we are talking about - this is design. It can be done on this piece of paper. Put that in your pocket and go. How much is a centrifuge's design. Just this much (extends his hand, shows how long) piece of paper. He will say take this piece of paper. And how big is a nuke design. I can write it down on a piece of paper. Its in my computer. Its in my mind. How are you going to check that. Its not a plane-load. If something is in my mind and if I go and tell somebody then who is going to check. How is ISI going to know. Its on a piece of paper, computer , in my mind and on top of that the person is in charge. So this is what happened. And nobody was involved with him. Absolutely. This is our finding. And we have told this after investigating everybody. And if somebody was involved then we would have taken them to task.
Question (unknown journalist): You are assuring that there will be no rollback. But there is news coming (about it), and I can see that you are also somewhat concerned as to why such news comes – there has been talk of economic sanctions also. Now regarding Japan – I know that Pakistan is telling them to restore the economic assistance that was suspended in 1998… Japan has been our biggest donor, with assistance of 500MM dollars, now because of the North Korean angle, do you think that this aid, which was to be restored will again be put in jeopardy?
Mushy: Nothing is happening. That is why I am saying that when we ourselves write these 15 article…ourselves…it is said that ‘Aa bail mujhe maar’ (a saying in Hindi/Urdu – literally translated as ‘Hey bull, come and hit me’ ….means ‘inviting problems’) Nobody is telling us anything, but we ourselves tell them – come to such and such place and catch us (red handed). Get this (the nuclear programme) ended. There is nothing. Our relations with Japan are very good, sir. Our relations with all countries are good. At this point, there is not a single country with which our relations are bad, including that country – India – they are improving there. Our relations with Russia are very good and are developing a lot. And the others are there in any case – we have no problems. There is no basis to the talk that economic assistance from Japan is going to end, etc. etc. Because they understand that these are some individuals who have proliferated. That is what I am telling you – it is us who are bent on telling them “No, these are not individuals alone. It is the Government (that is involved)” so that they can come and end it all. That is what I am saying for all this while, do we need any enemy, we are ourselves telling them “Come, end the aid because the Government is involved”. They know that these are individuals. And we are bent on proving to them that these are not individuals. That the Government is involved.
Question (M.A.Niazi, The Nation): Two background clarifications. First – when we became overt after the Chagai tests of 1998, the NCA has been formed in about 2000, so in that intervening period, you were telling us about how the authority was functioning , can you please explain what was the arrangement in this period. Second, sir, in 2001, Dr. A.Q.Khan, along with the retiring Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, were both kicked upstairs.
Mush: Sorry, say again?
Niazi: they were both kicked upstairs. i.e. they were removed from their executive positions and made advisers to the Chief Executive.
Mush: yes
Niazi: so at that time, did the Government have any inkling that there were problems because of which these changes had to be made?
Mush: Yes. I became Army Chief in October 1998. As soon as I came (into that office), the first task that I took up with Nawaz Sharif Sahib, I think in early 1999, I started saying that all these organizations of ours, let us bring this under an effective command structure. And at that time, we launched a study and started developing the parameters for this. In some months, we developed them, I don’t remember exactly when…Qidwai (head of the Strategic Planning Division of the NCA, sitting in the audience), you remember when? (To Qidwai) April 1999? What did we do in April 1999? We had that in …to Nawaz Sharif…(to audience) in April 1999, we presented a structure to Nawaz Sharif Sahib. (To Qidwai) and when did he approve that? …yeah, ok…till I became Chief Executive, ok…I kept telling him several times that this is an organizational method, let us bring it into custodial control, good command and control. There was a presentation in April 1999. He heard it but he did not approve it. Lethargy as usual, thinking that this is an unimportant sort of thing. When I became Chief Executive in 1999, I immediately took this action.. (to Qidwai) when did we finally approve it? (to audience) we approved it in February 2000. And we had all this organization on ground. And from there, I told them to end the SPD (Strategic Planning Division of the GHQ) and told them here to create a Secretariat. And I moved them out. In Chaklala, the SPD…Strategic Planning Division…there is a full Secretariat, elaborate Secretariat under his command…and this comes under the Joint Staff HQ…under the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff…answerable directly to the President and the PM through the NCA. So this is the organization that we have made.
Now, the second question of yours…[Start English]yes, sir.[End English] That is correct. When we made this organization in 2000, the biggest thing was that we centralized its security. We centralized the intelligence..uh.. security of all the scientific organizations. Under the SPD. When we centralized this, all the checks and balances came to us. We moved from decentralization to centralization. We took over financial control. Started a total external audit system. We brought in total checks and balances. When we did this, we started seeing some things. And that is why… it was no easy step that I took at that time. And I immediately took the step and rectified it.
[Start English]Question (Humayun Gauhar – also referred to as Humayun Gobar on the forum): You just said that, quite rightly, that when a Brigadier is in charge of security, nobody under him is going to check him when he leaves the building. You also said in Davos that the scientists, some of them at least, they did it for greed.
Mush: they did it for…?
Gobar: greed.
Mush: for?
Gobar: for money, corruption, bribe, whatever you want to call it. We had been hearing stories, rumors, more than rumors, about the corruption of the scientists including Dr. A.Q.Khan, the houses that they made, the presents that they gave and so on and so forth. At that time, were the security agencies or whoever, the Government themselves – did it not occur to them to at least take a look? That when there is so much smoke, there might be a fire?
Mush: I will, I will agree to that. Yes, he was spending money right, left and center. I mean I know that… [End English] you must have seen that near Sohawa (?) there is a beautiful monument dedicated to Shahabuddin Ghauri.. [Start English]I don’t know how much (was spent on it). So, this was going on. But as I said[End English] , see, …. come I shall not pursue that point. [Start English]There is some… I am not a secretive man but some things even I have to.[End English]. The thing is that [Start English] if you…in the covert stage especially.. in the covert stage… [End English] if you are developing them, [Start English]you want to go forward, and have a nuclear device. You want to become a nuclear state. You want to have your missile power. Because there is a disequilibrium. And you want to set that right. Do you want to… which is your focus? You want to get hold of a man who is doing that? For you? And remove him? So that this programme becomes zero? Or overlook certain things? So I think pre… in the covert period, there was autonomy. He was tasked to do something. And he did it. So therefore, I am afraid, one couldn’t be that intrusive, I would say. For the fear that what you desire may not be accomplished. So I think it was a … those were complexities of the time.
Question (Victoria ???, Sunday Telegraph): Mr. President, if I speak in my mother tongue…in your speech this morning to the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Assembly (PoK Assembly) you mentioned that you had been quoted out of context on the UN resolutions. First I wanted you to tell me what your position is on the UN resolutions as you lead up to the talks with India. And secondly, you again made a distinction in your speech between freedom fighting and terrorism. The United States has said that no distinction can be made between freedom fighting and terrorism. So I would appreciate your comments on that as well.
Mush: The first point, on the UN Security Council Resolutions. I have been.. it has been said that I have said that it is no more there or that I rejected the basis of the UN Security Council resolutions. Now the UN resolution is not a simple piece of paper which I can just throw away like that (points to the paper on his table). The point is .. what the point I was making and that is our stand, that all our.. Pakistan’s stand on Kashmir remains as it was..there is no change as yet. But I had said that we must start the process of dialogue, And that must contain Kashmir. We must start moving forward on Kashmir. Now when And in that also, I had said, and I still maintain, it cannot be unilateral. It has to be by both sides. By India and by Pakistan. We are prepared to be flexible, I said. We ought to move beyond stated positions. At that time, not now. I cannot take a unilateral decision that this is what we will do, whatever India does. No, that is not the case. We start moving forward. And when the time for the resolution of the dispute comes, when we start discussing what is the solution to Kashmir, then we must show flexibility and resolve and boldness to leave stated positions and move forward. Both, not unilaterally. This is our stand. The other, when you talk of freedom. Yes, that may be the US stand. But Pakistan’s stand is very clear. That whatever is happening in Kashmir, we don’t call it terrorism. Certainly, there is a freedom struggle going on. Nobody has been able to define what is terrorism really. And I made it… in my speech…at the United Nations I said, “We need to define what is terrorism”. That definition has not been forthcoming from any side really. [End English]
Question (unidentified journalist): When newspapers don’t have information, then there is a desire for kite flying. And despite listening to all that you said with great attention, one question lingers. People keep asking. Yesterday, Chaudhry Shuja’at Hussain has said that there is no money involved in this in this activity by Dr. Qadeer Khan. And today we have all seen that he was a great patriot and did a lot of work – that is why he was pardoned. So how do we answer … he knew the most in Pakistan as to how sensitive this matter was, so why indeed did he do what he did. People will ask us and we will have to answer them.
Mush: Correct. That is correct. I have also heard what he (Shujaat Hussain) has said. But I want to tell you that many of these things were not known to anybody. This investigation .. this was such a sensitive matter.. that this investigation was being conducted in a very covert manner, people were being questioned and we were collecting data, collecting proof. Things were known to very few people … nobody knew. And Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know it at all. He had no idea what the details were. Someone suddenly asked him and he did not know the facts. Now he has been told the facts. After that (his statement) the facts have been communicated. And I think now… let’s see if he gives any interviews…now he should know what the reality is. Because there is nothing hidden in reality. I told them to show everything to him, so that he gets to know. I say that see, A.Q.Khan Sahib is my hero too. And I think he is a hero for all of us. He is my hero. I keep dealing with him and I had raised him to the heavens. When this was first shown to me, even I was surprised, shocked …that it is impossible. Initially, the brain did not agree… that a hero… how is this possible. But when the proof comes in front of you…documentary and totally clear cut, in written stuff then a man has to accept it. So Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know when he gave the statement.
Question (Ikramullah – The Nation and Nawa-e-Waqt): Mr. President, you have just said that many people were not aware of the facts of this matter. And even such a big leader (Shujaat) was not aware. And when you said about many newspapers that they were indulging in irresponsible behavior, so when this matter started and when the IAEA brought the Iran report to our notice, wasn’t it the duty of the Govt. and our media managers that senior representatives of newspapers should have also been called and told that these investigations are going to take place. The requirements of national security are such and such. We are investigating. Please exercise discretion regarding this matter.
Mushy: I wish it were like this that it was so easy .. that I called you and gave you a bit of a briefing and you would have understood and wrote with full sincerity. But unfortunately, that is not the case. You write from several angles, isn’t it (very condescending tone here). Drop those angles. You are told, and many times, I personally tell you … the Foreign Minister tells you…(to the Minister) when did you hold the Press Conference?
Foreign Minister Kasuri [Start English] I briefed the national media both in Lahore and Islamabad many months ago - the top editors and columnists. I gave them a background briefing and most of them are present here.[End English]
Mush: so this has happened. Even when I come on televisions, for 5-10 mins, I say many times. But they don’t listen…they don’t come under control. The second thing is that – ok forget that. My crib is not that. You tell me, don’t you understand what national interest is? That if you newspaper prints that military generals are involved, the army is involved and the Government is involved. Don’t you know that this can be very damaging? So I have a question for you that even if this were accurate, why are you writing it? Isn’t this your country also? Do you want to damage it? Stop writing such stuff. Even if it is truthful, don’t write it. This is my demand from you. Because this is a question of Pakistan.
<1 hour and 18.50 minutes>
Question: Sir, my name is Tahir Khalil connected with Daily Jung. I want to bring to your attention an interview by Gen Beg recently, a tv interview, he said that during Benazir’s duration Uranium enrichment was reduced to 5%. I want to seek your comment on it.
Yes, Its an unfortunate thing. I said that, these military philosophers, I would call them pseudo-intellectuals, they want to come in the limelight. You know the names, there are 2-3 people (almost a giggle). Now…, I have also absolutely heard it (the interview). Now…, I will ask you to challenge them. The first thing is, if you reduced the enrichment from 95% to 5% and if you asked (permission) Benazir, he said, Benazir and he had decided, the two decided this together. 4 four things they said. 1,2,3, 4 and 4th was this one. Actually roll back, this is rollback. What else is rollback? If you haven’t reached minimum deterrence level and you end enrichement, you have stopped your nuclear development. This is called rollback. I would like to ask him and Benazir Sahiba both, in my opinion the whole nation should ask them, why did you rollback at that time? Under what pressure?
Now look at this. Secondly, he has given another statement. That he referred to NCA. Don’t know, they must have seen NCA in dreams. There was nothing at that time. These things… Another thing I noted, when he (looks at his notes) … I think, he was saying, deployment…, at that time when there was confrontation between India and Pakistan. He himself was saying that I was not concerned with the development. Then he said, I took permission from Benazir about taking action-vaction against Hindoostan.
Two strategies are involement, two controls are involement. This NCA - development control and employment control. I don’t think they have any understanding of these two. One is development and the other is employment. Development, I have said it, is connected to that chain and certainly army chief is related. Employment is government decision. When it needs to be used and what needs to be used. Use of strength … so obviously, government has to come into play. So development’s answer cannot be from employment. He must have talked to Benazir about employment but development, certainly, was being decided by President and Army chief and science organization.
Question: Mr President, Why you could not provide the face saving to AQ Khan if you yourself have described him as national hero? Why he was brought on TV? This is the.. I.. it’s a bit emotional but I think many people will ask you this question. Thank you.
No, I pers..(garbled) I thought I provided with face saving. Meaning, meaning, from my side whatever I have done I have tried to shield him actually. I have not tried to... but there was a minimum. One has to balance between international requirements and shielding. I have told you, that you cannot shield a hero and damage the nation. That cannot be done. So the balance is required. In protecting the nation first of all and also shielding your hero. And I thought this fine line, the way we did it was the best way of doing it. This is our judgment. This was the judgment of the whole NCA and the cabinet. And this is what we thought was the best. And still I think that is the best way that one could do.
Question: You have said that minimum nucklear (sic) deterrence is one of the objectives of your administration. And whatever has happened in the recent past, this is not going to affect your program in that direction. But the important question is that we also have a peaceful nucklear development program which is also important to the country including the installation of atomic nucklear plants. What are your pro… what is your program in that particular field that is important for the country’s economy?
Now, when you are talking about deterrence theory you are talking about military use of nuclear power and in that we have to maintain our strategy to maintain a minimum deterrence level. And we have quantified this minimum deterrence level and we are fulfilling that. And I have very clearly said that mashallah, allamdullah we have crossed the minimum deterrence level. That side is well taken for. The other is peaceful use. In that you already know… Pervaiz Butt sahib you want to say something? Pervaiz Butt sahib, you say it.
==============================================
<Start of the conference>
Ladies & Gentlemen, it is indeed my pleasure in addressing you and answering you, whatever question you have. But since this is a mixed gathering , or although it is a mixed gathering, I am compelled to speak in my mother tongue, Urdu, because what I am going to talk is more for the domestic audience. But wherever important I will indicate and also turn into English.
[Urdu begin]
This is a very historic conference, this conference, many things have happened, many historic things have happened and I haven’t met you in a while. Therefore I thought that this is an opportunity where I come in front of you and talk with you freely.
Gentlemen, Pakistan at this time, in my opinion is standing at a fork in the road. I have said this many times but I would like to repeat, because I am not merely talking empty, this is correct, this is indeed.
On one side, this fork is such that on one side we can make progress, prosperity, development and towards happiness we can go, if we adopt the correct path and keep going. Because we are at that stage to be able to go along that path. On the other side if we leave the correct path, keep going backwards, especially a defeatist mentality, a tendency of negativism and cyinicism if we adopt, if we keep crying over ourselves, and leaving the correct path, a downward path is also clear for us which I think our coming generations will never forgive. Because in my view there is an opportunity, this opportunity was never there before, and we are wasting this opportunity.
In this state of affairs, at this fork in the road our country is standing. Upon us, internationally there have been four accusations. This also I have told many times. But I will like to repeat again. First, that whatever is happening in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan. Whatever is happening in IHK, Indian held Kashmir, that also is happening from Pakistan. Whatever nuclear proliferation has happened, that also has happened from Pakistan. And internally Pakistan is a terrorist, extremeist and fundamentalist society. These four negative perceptions are common in the world. I am telling this with full confidence, I have just returned from abroad, and approximately met all the media leaders of the world, in Davos. All of them ask me this same question. Definitely I keep on giving clarifications. Deinitely I keep trying to protect Pakistan.
[Urdu end]
[English begin]
Today I am not going to talk on these four issues. Today I will talk only on nuclear proliferation. I am talking only on nuclear proli… (fumbles for correct pronunciation), proliferation. I am not talking of anything else. But I would accept question on Kashmir also. Because this is the Kashmir day, 5th of February, and I have just come back from Muzaffarabad, aftyer addressing Azad J&K assembly and council, and I have spoken my mind there. Whoever has heard it, or whatever points you have, I would be too glad to answer questions on nuclear proliferation, nuclear aspect and Kashmir. But I am talking only of nuclear proliferation. [English end]
[Urdu begin]
Nowadays in all international media, talk is of nuclear proliferation, all the time CNN, BBC, any, anywhere in the world, these same talks are taking place. And Pakistan and Pakistan’s scientists are at the centerstage. It is also being said that Pakistan is a main source, hub, of nuclear proliferation activity. It is regrettable that one can see in many of our local media, that even they are pushing this forward that, government is also involved, military are also involved, scientists too, and also that scientists are not but govt and army are. They perhaps don’t realize that what could be the consequence of these things. Do they do this knowingly, or taking instructions from outside, or else they have no sense. In any case I would like to tell you for your understanding what could happen.
If government is involved, first thing, UN security council could apply sanctions on us. And in this vein if you look at N. Korea, and remember Iran and Libya. Look at this also who used to talk big, and now who have genuflected, who are lying supine, remember this too. Pardons are being asked, who is asking for pardons, we or others? Second thing is this, that people say that we are irresponsible government, so sign CTBT, NPT and rollback. Third thing, there are a few rouge states, we could join them too. The government doesn’t know how to do anything, so lets declare them rougues. And fourth thing, it can happen, that our vital national interests come under physical danger.
This I have told you upfront, these dangers are. We, our community, if its wants to get into this, then lets go, let me join you too. Lets move forward, (lets see) which way we will come out.
Where critical national interests are facing dire consequences, as they are now, there emotional, parochial, political (considerations) should be given up. We should work with seriousness. After thinking decisions should be made and actions taken. First of all (above all), actions for Pakistan should be taken. In the minds t one thing we should have, Pakistan. What we need to save, what we need justo take forward. This is not the time for emotionalism, neither for politics.
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
This can be divided into two periods. Pre 98, post 98, covert and overt. There was a covert period during which we had to hide everything, we had to hide it from the world and move forward. What is a better way to hide something from the world, to move forward? Courage was needed, passion was needed, and intelligence was needed. Now what happened in this period? India did its own nuclear test in 74. And tilted the equilibrium of deterrence. There was equilibrium in conventional, they brought a non-conventional disequilibrium. We had to fix that.
So, in 1976, Dr. A.Q. Khan came to Pakistan. His work started in June 1976. I give its full credit to Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto sahib that he initiated this program. To maintain our deterrence level he started a program. But in 1977 July it ended! He got separated (reference to his being hanged?). In this one year other than finding a location, selecting a location, and starting the construction activity, nothing else happened. You can judge yourself in one year, here (incomprehensible part) also keep getting made. So this job was done. And during this period who was there? Mr. Bhutto was there and Mr. A.Q. Khan was there. And no one else knew. This is a good thing, a correct thing, this I am not saying that this is wrong. It was a correct method(?).
Then the period of Mr. Zia started. After 1977, and who was dealing then, now I accelerate a bit, who was dealing? Zia, president Zia, and A.Q. Khan. He was the president, he was the army chief. Two men. For seven assistants, for financial control, Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan perhaps used to get involved, for the finances. And one staff officer was there, Gen Zamin I think, Major General Zamin, Zamin Naqvi, he was involved. That’s all. But directly actually president and Mr. A.Q. Khan, scientists.
After that, post Zia period came, during which Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan became president. Then Benazir, then Nawaz Sharif, then again Benazir, again Nawaz Sharif, in this Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Mr. Leghari and Mr. Tarar (were presidents). And during this time everything, president, army chief and scientists, period. Neither government was involved nor the army was involved. Only during General Waheed’s(sp?) time, there is a (post of) director general combat development of army in GHQ, Major General (Waheed) was (that) during that time. He was included as a staff officer, since the organization had grown, to deal with it collectively a Major Genral was brought in. So that he keeps on dealing with the chief. Army was not involved. I myself was sitting in GHQ as the Director General Military operations, I was not involved, I did not know what was going on. Directly, president, army chief, director general combat development, scientific organization. No government, no army, no navy or air force.
This was the pre covert period that I have talked about. During that period this was happening. This was an excellent way to maintain secrecy, and to carry the program forward. I congratulate all the presidents, all the army chiefs, that they kept this secret. They showed determination, they demonstrated resolve, and due to Allah’s mercy they kept taking this program forward. They didn’t come under any pressure. Since it was a secretive program. I congratulate all of them.
Now, post 98, we became a nuclear state, accepted, declared. We didn’t have any need to hide anymore. Thats why I formed the national command authority, strategic plan division, army- navy-air force strategic force command was formed. Now, government’s hand is there, army’s hand is there. If something comes out now, then I am responsible. As much government is responsible, so much I am responsible. If anything happens now.
Therefore we should have it clear that the correct method during the covert period, pre 98, this sequence has gone on…covert, this..moved in a clandestine way. During which total financial autonomy, administrative autonomy, security autonomy, was held by the organization. Then, to say this that, how did it happen..? Security was under the organization itself. No one else was checking. Money, total financial, there was no external audit. Local audit, own, internal audit. And I tell you this was the correct way. Because otherwise perhaps we wouldn’t have advanced.
Therefore, I have given this so much time to it due to this reason, gentlemen, that I could prove to you, that it is absolutely true that neither the government is involved nor the govt officials are involved nor the army is involved. And given the maximum autonomy, clandestine covert operation, financial autonomy, administrative autonomy and security autonomy, everything that has happened could have happened. And this is surely what has happened. Now it can’t happen.
One more wild accusation, they say, what is this investigation, how has it been done, it hasn’t been brought up in the assembly, no one was told, it wasn’t debated upon, it hasn’t come out on TV, there haven’t been any charges that have been formulated. These is useless type of talk. Whenever there is any accusation, and that too of such a sensitive matter, then do we go and announce it on the radio? Obviously there is secrecy. Why should we tell, we are not going to tell. Since we don’t know what the facts are. So, unless I get those facts, why should I tell anyone else? Since there are such big names involved. And in any case the case hasn’t even started. Then what charges? There are no charges. The case hasn’t even started. A preliminary investigation is going on. Do we not understand this? And when the preliminary investigation was completed then FIR was lodged, now there is an FIR. And now when I made the decision, that is now, now ask me what it is. Now I will tell you. I will freely tell you.
Now I would like to give a brief background of this case. This mid 2003, IAEA inspectors had gone to Iran. Under pressure Iran allowed them, obviously. And they saw centrifuges there. They were shown those centrifuges. And they saw this that those centrifuges were Pakistani (dramatic voice), of Pakistani design. And this is correct. They had a contamination in them too, you might have read in the newspapers. It is possible those went from here itself.
After that there was pressure, full. Those whose (great) examples people used to mention here, they genuflected! We were named. Scientists were named. After that even Libya followed. Genuflecting. They stuffed boxes full of data and gave away. “Here are sir, Pakistan’s”.
In this situation, when these developments were taking place, we moved very fast. We immediately started our investigation, obviously secret, and we found that no government involvement is there. Some individuals are involved. Yes, they are involved. Completely involved. Initial enquiry has been done. Debriefing they said, I said again and again, who has come up with this term “debriefing”, lets cut this, lets call his an investigation, I don’t know from where this has come. Anyway, someone used it once, and it kept on going, now only “debriefing” is happening. In any case call it debriefing, or call it an investigation, call it an enquiry, whatever, I don’t care for the terminology. Eleven people are involved amongst whom is Dr. A.Q. Khan. Against him this whole investigation has been done. And let me tell you this also for your pleasure, that Mirza Aslam Beg and Jehangir Keramt were also debriefed.
These all investigations we ourselves have done, Pakistanis have done it. Not a single person came from outside. No coercion has been used. Unnecessary talks, this is this, this is that. All of them are sitting totally alright, healthy. There is nothing like that. Since all the evidence is documentary who can deny it? We can put it in front of their faces and say look! All, there is nothing like that (coercion), all the investigations have been completed.
Findings… unfortunate,.. all proliferation, … unfortunately,… under the supervision or orders of Dr. A.Q.
No government official, no military man, is not involved. This I tell you with full faith(?). This started in eighties, proliferation, and A.Q. Khan retired in 2001, and it ended around that time. Another thing that came out, is that a whole underworld is involved. And it makes sense, we have also made our demonstrable force, that too we haven’t been buying things openly. Obviously there is an underworld, and Pakistan should not be blamed for this. And if we look, all the atomic powers of the world in the beginning have been made with the help of the underworld. We have made it with the help of underworld, so has India. No one can pinpoint Pakistan. Underworld is there, which is there also in European countries, Asian countries, and there is a whole web, in details of which I don’t wish to go. But where there is a root in Pakistan, the fabrication is taking place in European and other countries, and Dubai is the transportation center. So this is an underworld that is functioning. It is functioning from here. Those European countries are involved, their people are involved, and Pakistanis are also involved. These are the findings.
I want to deduce this, that whoever takes this in a very light mood, that what if proliferation has happened, it has happened amongst the muslim brothers. Then one is not a muslim brother really (North Korea). And the other (proliferation) that has happened amongst the muslim brothers, lets look at the consequence of giving it to them. They didn’t ask us when they named us! So I want to say this that above all there is Pakistan. Forget all others. Don’t have erroneous ideas. If we have to be saved, if we have to bring power, and if we have to stay, stay here, then we should learn a lesson.
Now some say that we are undermining the heroes. I would like to answer this. That I have heroes too, (A.Q. Khan) is my hero too, has always been, he is even now. He is, because he has made Pakistan a great power. This Dr. A.Q. Khan has made. No one can negate this, no one can cancel this, no one can prove this wrong. This is the reality. Prestige and (incomprehensible) only this hero has given us.
But when I sit down to philosophize this issue, when we have such kinds of heroes, he is Dr. A.Q., we make them larger than life. We seat them on our heads (a phrase in Urdu meaning giving great respect). We praise them to sky. A larger than life, higher than human level. But they remain a human being. Then one feels sorry, feels sad, feels angry, feels pained, that this larger than life figure has made mistakes. Since even he is a human being like us. This is the reality. [Urdu end]
[English begin]The only question then arises “Is Pakistan important or is the hero important” (dramatic voice). Pakistan is important. My job here, number one, protect my nation. And number two, protect the honor and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. [English end]
[Urdu begin] This can’t happen that in trying to save the hero I destroy the country. I won’t do that. Whatever dangers come upon me, this can’t happen.
Is pakistan important or the hero important. Pakistan is important. My job here is #1 protect my nation and #2 protect the honour and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. Its not possible that while saving the hero I destroy the nation. This will not happen. Even if there is some danger on myself - this will not happen. So this is the reality. This is the dilemma. This is how I spent my Eid - in this dilemma, this reality. Lets leave these matters alone for a while . What happened was that Dr AQ Sahab confessed his guilt what you watched on tv. And then people started talking about this - that somebody forced him to, to save the nation but in reality nothing like that happened. I have told you everything. What I have said is the truth. There is not a single bit of falsity in his confession. He has erred. But he is our hero. There is no pressure on us. Nobody is telling me to punish him, release him, or do this or that. NcA convenes, we sit together, we talk about it, we talk for 4 hours and then we take a decision and we work accordingly. We work to the best of our intelligence and abilities. Nobody tells us. Nobody calls us over telephone, not even once. We will do as we feel like what we decide. NCA has considered, cabinet meeting has been convened and have recommended pardon and as a president I have decided to pardon Dr AQ as he is our national hero but he has commited some errors which is unfortunate but still I have decided to pardon him. I have said something that is very lengthy.
In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, we follow a very open media policy and we have given maximum liberty to opposition. They talk anything. But you must understand. Pakistan comes first. It is unfortunate that we bring politics into everything (zatiyat main siyasat ??) and even in sensitive issues (like nuclear) in which we discussed already what can happen, we do the same things over there too. Then when I say national interest people write it in inverted commas and say what is this guy talking about "national interest", "national interest". If we dont understand this much that what is national interest - that my friend if you prove that this proliferation has been done by govt and military then what will happen is that we will become a rogue state and get sanctions applied. If we dont understand this then what else do we understand. One thing I would like to point out is that this is wrong. At least dont talk rubbish. In fact I would go that extent that even if this is true, you should not do this. Even then you should understand national interest. What I am trying to tell you, that Iran and Libya gave away all papers. What is happening there ? What is the media doing there ? Everything has been rolled back. Everything is finished. Tell me what is their media doing. Are they shouting ? Is the population crying ? They understand national interest.... That maybe this was in national interest and they are sitting quietly. And here even though things are alrite people are trying to falsify it and drown(harm) national interest. That is all that I have to say.
I will take questions.
Some announcer : Ladies and gentlemen may I request you to identify yourself. Please wait to be recognised.
Some bearded guy (kinda old) around 50:12 : I am saying one thing, Musharraf Saheb. In the past 4 years you have pulled the nation out of many a calamity and have taken us towards the road to progress and recently by promoting-jamhooriyat(dunno what this means) you have done such an immense favour to the quam that the quam is never going to forget. I have one question, Sir. That Dr Abdul Qadder has confessed to you and the nation and you have forgiven him but do you think this matter will come to end here ??
Musharraf : You leave that to me. At this time we have decided. NCA has decided. Cabinet has decided. That this is the decision. Now, Insha-allah, I stand between Dr AQ Sahib and International-Whatever-that comes. Inshaallah nothing will happen.
Simon Somebody from Reuters.. around 51:59 : You told us that no military officials were involved. But many people remain to be convinced about this fact. And there are 3 things that Pakistan might be asked to do to convince people that this is indeed the case. One of those would be to hand over all of the documents to the IAEA and give them all of the evidence. The second which is being asked by some pakistani politician (Mush seen writing some notes down) is a full independent investigation into this which looks into the military's role. And the third thing which is being asked for in an editorial in washington post is for pakistan to submit to UN supervision of its weapons program. I would ask you if any of those, how you would respond to any of those three suggestions to convince those of that the military is indeed not involved.
Musharraf : Negative to all the three of them. We dont do that. (looks pretty p1ssed). We are an independent nation. Nobody comes in and checks our things. We check them ourselves. There are europeans involved. Have you gone and asked them ? That the same thing should be done there also. That they should submit their documents. That the govt should come forward and get the united nations there. Have you asked them this ? This is a soverign country (pumping fists) . Nobody, no document will be given. No independent investigations will take place here and we will not have the united nations coming in here but if anyone in the IAEA wants to come here and ask us and come and discuss what else have we found and investigate it by all means we are open and we will tell them everything. And let me also say you should see what the US is saying, what other countries are saying , leave the media aside and see their official comments. So certainly all these countries have found out, they have investigated , they have investigated the underworld. Everyone is at the moment investigating the underworld and we know the reality and they know the reality. They know that the govt is not involved. They know that the military is not involved. And that is enough for us. It is the media who is saying whatever you are saying.
Around 54:27
Another old spectacled guy : The rest of the 10 involved, in this proliferation, that they had done all this on Dr Khan's orders, is their fate decided or is yet to be decided.
Musharraf : First of all, we had to do the toughest job, which we have concluded. We have yet to decide on the others. But I do want to say that I am seeing their relatives - they appear on TV and cry and I also know that many politicians are backing them up and these politicians enfuriate them . Nobody should pressurise us. Ek to choree , doosra sinaajoree. (Roughly -> robbing and then chest-thumping ?). I would like to tell the relatives of these people who might be listening right now. First you should ask you father and your brother that when they were out to sell pakistan and put pakistan in this mess - where were they. Is that their character ? Go and ask your father or brother. And as to what are we going to do with them, we will make a decision on that . It needs some though. Its not such a simple matter. Because we have accepted Dr Sahab's mercy petition . We will have to see what should be done to them. But we will take a realistic stand and whatever govt decides we will have to do. So far we have not decided. But the politicians behind them should really get their act together (baaz aa janaa chahiye).
Around 56:16
Questioner : My name is Salim Bukhari and I am editor of "News" newspaper. Sir, the concern you have told us about regarding pakistan , there cannot be 2 opinions on that (kinda like no question about that) but for common people, those who also feel for pakistan the nation, is that the investigation you are doing - wont those things be used against us as evidence. The people who I have talked to say that today the US is stuck in Afghanistan and so they are taking all of this a little easily but are there any guarantees, if the words are bad please forgive me, have you considered things in that direction or not.
Musharraf (57:09) : No I wont mind at all. Just got a little sentimiental . But you can ask. Look, at this time we are facing 4 kinds of misperceptions, 4 very strong negative perceptions, that whatever is happening in afghanistan is from here, kashmir, internally we are extremists and fundamentalists. If we dont address these perceptions as I have already said then due to any reason , then people are just looking for excuses, excuses to catch us and squeeze us. You will hand over the excuse to them. That is the reason I am saying that if we walk on the right path then nobody is asking us to stop anything.. Nothing is happening. We just have to tell the world that we are a responsible state. We are against terrorism. We dont want Al Qaeda and Taliban here . We are going to go against them . And we are firm against them . We are looking for a resolution on Kashmir in a peaceful manner which is happening right now. Our society is moderate. Its not an extremist and toleratant(freudian slip?) society. If we just do this , Inshallah nobody is going to do anything to us. Otherwise there is the danger, the one you are talking about.
Questioner (Around 58:48) : Mr President Mujahid Brelvi (?). Sir you said that whatever has been going on. Dr Khan on the peopl under his supervision have been doing - this question keeps rising in many people's minds that our (intelligence) institutions have been strong. Even keep and eye on political activities. Even our state is not a banana republic but whatever has been happening - Dr Khan and his 11 accomplices have been doing - Why did these institutions keep their eyes closed . Arent they responsible also ? And if they are then should we investigate them just as you said Mirza Aslam Beg and Jahangir Karamat have been investigated. The other heads of agencies - are we going to question them ?
Musharraf (59:36) : You are absolutely right. There are definitely going to be doubts in people's minds. I completely agree that people are going to doubt but I did give a pretty lengthy explanation about this but I am going to give you another one at a different angle so that you understand. Thing is that there is this organisation, for example KRL, it was Dr Khan's org. There is work going on there. What is the security like ? One retired soldier or brigadier goes there and he gets to be in command over there. He reports to him (Dr Khan). He is indebted to him . He gets paid by him . He is going to get promoted by him. After retirement or service , its there that he is going to get a job. Thats one thing. Second thing. If I am a boss of some place and I am taking something away from there then is a guard going to check me out ? Would anybody even dare to check my car ? Thats the other thing. Third thing is that this knowledge that we are talking about - this is design. It can be done on this piece of paper. Put that in your pocket and go. How much is a centrifuge's design. Just this much (extends his hand, shows how long) piece of paper. He will say take this piece of paper. And how big is a nuke design. I can write it down on a piece of paper. Its in my computer. Its in my mind. How are you going to check that. Its not a plane-load. If something is in my mind and if I go and tell somebody then who is going to check. How is ISI going to know. Its on a piece of paper, computer , in my mind and on top of that the person is in charge. So this is what happened. And nobody was involved with him. Absolutely. This is our finding. And we have told this after investigating everybody. And if somebody was involved then we would have taken them to task.
Question (unknown journalist): You are assuring that there will be no rollback. But there is news coming (about it), and I can see that you are also somewhat concerned as to why such news comes – there has been talk of economic sanctions also. Now regarding Japan – I know that Pakistan is telling them to restore the economic assistance that was suspended in 1998… Japan has been our biggest donor, with assistance of 500MM dollars, now because of the North Korean angle, do you think that this aid, which was to be restored will again be put in jeopardy?
Mushy: Nothing is happening. That is why I am saying that when we ourselves write these 15 article…ourselves…it is said that ‘Aa bail mujhe maar’ (a saying in Hindi/Urdu – literally translated as ‘Hey bull, come and hit me’ ….means ‘inviting problems’) Nobody is telling us anything, but we ourselves tell them – come to such and such place and catch us (red handed). Get this (the nuclear programme) ended. There is nothing. Our relations with Japan are very good, sir. Our relations with all countries are good. At this point, there is not a single country with which our relations are bad, including that country – India – they are improving there. Our relations with Russia are very good and are developing a lot. And the others are there in any case – we have no problems. There is no basis to the talk that economic assistance from Japan is going to end, etc. etc. Because they understand that these are some individuals who have proliferated. That is what I am telling you – it is us who are bent on telling them “No, these are not individuals alone. It is the Government (that is involved)” so that they can come and end it all. That is what I am saying for all this while, do we need any enemy, we are ourselves telling them “Come, end the aid because the Government is involved”. They know that these are individuals. And we are bent on proving to them that these are not individuals. That the Government is involved.
Question (M.A.Niazi, The Nation): Two background clarifications. First – when we became overt after the Chagai tests of 1998, the NCA has been formed in about 2000, so in that intervening period, you were telling us about how the authority was functioning , can you please explain what was the arrangement in this period. Second, sir, in 2001, Dr. A.Q.Khan, along with the retiring Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, were both kicked upstairs.
Mush: Sorry, say again?
Niazi: they were both kicked upstairs. i.e. they were removed from their executive positions and made advisers to the Chief Executive.
Mush: yes
Niazi: so at that time, did the Government have any inkling that there were problems because of which these changes had to be made?
Mush: Yes. I became Army Chief in October 1998. As soon as I came (into that office), the first task that I took up with Nawaz Sharif Sahib, I think in early 1999, I started saying that all these organizations of ours, let us bring this under an effective command structure. And at that time, we launched a study and started developing the parameters for this. In some months, we developed them, I don’t remember exactly when…Qidwai (head of the Strategic Planning Division of the NCA, sitting in the audience), you remember when? (To Qidwai) April 1999? What did we do in April 1999? We had that in …to Nawaz Sharif…(to audience) in April 1999, we presented a structure to Nawaz Sharif Sahib. (To Qidwai) and when did he approve that? …yeah, ok…till I became Chief Executive, ok…I kept telling him several times that this is an organizational method, let us bring it into custodial control, good command and control. There was a presentation in April 1999. He heard it but he did not approve it. Lethargy as usual, thinking that this is an unimportant sort of thing. When I became Chief Executive in 1999, I immediately took this action.. (to Qidwai) when did we finally approve it? (to audience) we approved it in February 2000. And we had all this organization on ground. And from there, I told them to end the SPD (Strategic Planning Division of the GHQ) and told them here to create a Secretariat. And I moved them out. In Chaklala, the SPD…Strategic Planning Division…there is a full Secretariat, elaborate Secretariat under his command…and this comes under the Joint Staff HQ…under the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff…answerable directly to the President and the PM through the NCA. So this is the organization that we have made.
Now, the second question of yours…[Start English]yes, sir.[End English] That is correct. When we made this organization in 2000, the biggest thing was that we centralized its security. We centralized the intelligence..uh.. security of all the scientific organizations. Under the SPD. When we centralized this, all the checks and balances came to us. We moved from decentralization to centralization. We took over financial control. Started a total external audit system. We brought in total checks and balances. When we did this, we started seeing some things. And that is why… it was no easy step that I took at that time. And I immediately took the step and rectified it.
[Start English]Question (Humayun Gauhar – also referred to as Humayun Gobar on the forum): You just said that, quite rightly, that when a Brigadier is in charge of security, nobody under him is going to check him when he leaves the building. You also said in Davos that the scientists, some of them at least, they did it for greed.
Mush: they did it for…?
Gobar: greed.
Mush: for?
Gobar: for money, corruption, bribe, whatever you want to call it. We had been hearing stories, rumors, more than rumors, about the corruption of the scientists including Dr. A.Q.Khan, the houses that they made, the presents that they gave and so on and so forth. At that time, were the security agencies or whoever, the Government themselves – did it not occur to them to at least take a look? That when there is so much smoke, there might be a fire?
Mush: I will, I will agree to that. Yes, he was spending money right, left and center. I mean I know that… [End English] you must have seen that near Sohawa (?) there is a beautiful monument dedicated to Shahabuddin Ghauri.. [Start English]I don’t know how much (was spent on it). So, this was going on. But as I said[End English] , see, …. come I shall not pursue that point. [Start English]There is some… I am not a secretive man but some things even I have to.[End English]. The thing is that [Start English] if you…in the covert stage especially.. in the covert stage… [End English] if you are developing them, [Start English]you want to go forward, and have a nuclear device. You want to become a nuclear state. You want to have your missile power. Because there is a disequilibrium. And you want to set that right. Do you want to… which is your focus? You want to get hold of a man who is doing that? For you? And remove him? So that this programme becomes zero? Or overlook certain things? So I think pre… in the covert period, there was autonomy. He was tasked to do something. And he did it. So therefore, I am afraid, one couldn’t be that intrusive, I would say. For the fear that what you desire may not be accomplished. So I think it was a … those were complexities of the time.
Question (Victoria ???, Sunday Telegraph): Mr. President, if I speak in my mother tongue…in your speech this morning to the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Assembly (PoK Assembly) you mentioned that you had been quoted out of context on the UN resolutions. First I wanted you to tell me what your position is on the UN resolutions as you lead up to the talks with India. And secondly, you again made a distinction in your speech between freedom fighting and terrorism. The United States has said that no distinction can be made between freedom fighting and terrorism. So I would appreciate your comments on that as well.
Mush: The first point, on the UN Security Council Resolutions. I have been.. it has been said that I have said that it is no more there or that I rejected the basis of the UN Security Council resolutions. Now the UN resolution is not a simple piece of paper which I can just throw away like that (points to the paper on his table). The point is .. what the point I was making and that is our stand, that all our.. Pakistan’s stand on Kashmir remains as it was..there is no change as yet. But I had said that we must start the process of dialogue, And that must contain Kashmir. We must start moving forward on Kashmir. Now when And in that also, I had said, and I still maintain, it cannot be unilateral. It has to be by both sides. By India and by Pakistan. We are prepared to be flexible, I said. We ought to move beyond stated positions. At that time, not now. I cannot take a unilateral decision that this is what we will do, whatever India does. No, that is not the case. We start moving forward. And when the time for the resolution of the dispute comes, when we start discussing what is the solution to Kashmir, then we must show flexibility and resolve and boldness to leave stated positions and move forward. Both, not unilaterally. This is our stand. The other, when you talk of freedom. Yes, that may be the US stand. But Pakistan’s stand is very clear. That whatever is happening in Kashmir, we don’t call it terrorism. Certainly, there is a freedom struggle going on. Nobody has been able to define what is terrorism really. And I made it… in my speech…at the United Nations I said, “We need to define what is terrorism”. That definition has not been forthcoming from any side really. [End English]
Question (unidentified journalist): When newspapers don’t have information, then there is a desire for kite flying. And despite listening to all that you said with great attention, one question lingers. People keep asking. Yesterday, Chaudhry Shuja’at Hussain has said that there is no money involved in this in this activity by Dr. Qadeer Khan. And today we have all seen that he was a great patriot and did a lot of work – that is why he was pardoned. So how do we answer … he knew the most in Pakistan as to how sensitive this matter was, so why indeed did he do what he did. People will ask us and we will have to answer them.
Mush: Correct. That is correct. I have also heard what he (Shujaat Hussain) has said. But I want to tell you that many of these things were not known to anybody. This investigation .. this was such a sensitive matter.. that this investigation was being conducted in a very covert manner, people were being questioned and we were collecting data, collecting proof. Things were known to very few people … nobody knew. And Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know it at all. He had no idea what the details were. Someone suddenly asked him and he did not know the facts. Now he has been told the facts. After that (his statement) the facts have been communicated. And I think now… let’s see if he gives any interviews…now he should know what the reality is. Because there is nothing hidden in reality. I told them to show everything to him, so that he gets to know. I say that see, A.Q.Khan Sahib is my hero too. And I think he is a hero for all of us. He is my hero. I keep dealing with him and I had raised him to the heavens. When this was first shown to me, even I was surprised, shocked …that it is impossible. Initially, the brain did not agree… that a hero… how is this possible. But when the proof comes in front of you…documentary and totally clear cut, in written stuff then a man has to accept it. So Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know when he gave the statement.
Question (Ikramullah – The Nation and Nawa-e-Waqt): Mr. President, you have just said that many people were not aware of the facts of this matter. And even such a big leader (Shujaat) was not aware. And when you said about many newspapers that they were indulging in irresponsible behavior, so when this matter started and when the IAEA brought the Iran report to our notice, wasn’t it the duty of the Govt. and our media managers that senior representatives of newspapers should have also been called and told that these investigations are going to take place. The requirements of national security are such and such. We are investigating. Please exercise discretion regarding this matter.
Mushy: I wish it were like this that it was so easy .. that I called you and gave you a bit of a briefing and you would have understood and wrote with full sincerity. But unfortunately, that is not the case. You write from several angles, isn’t it (very condescending tone here). Drop those angles. You are told, and many times, I personally tell you … the Foreign Minister tells you…(to the Minister) when did you hold the Press Conference?
Foreign Minister Kasuri [Start English] I briefed the national media both in Lahore and Islamabad many months ago - the top editors and columnists. I gave them a background briefing and most of them are present here.[End English]
Mush: so this has happened. Even when I come on televisions, for 5-10 mins, I say many times. But they don’t listen…they don’t come under control. The second thing is that – ok forget that. My crib is not that. You tell me, don’t you understand what national interest is? That if you newspaper prints that military generals are involved, the army is involved and the Government is involved. Don’t you know that this can be very damaging? So I have a question for you that even if this were accurate, why are you writing it? Isn’t this your country also? Do you want to damage it? Stop writing such stuff. Even if it is truthful, don’t write it. This is my demand from you. Because this is a question of Pakistan.
<1 hour and 18.50 minutes>
Question: Sir, my name is Tahir Khalil connected with Daily Jung. I want to bring to your attention an interview by Gen Beg recently, a tv interview, he said that during Benazir’s duration Uranium enrichment was reduced to 5%. I want to seek your comment on it.
Yes, Its an unfortunate thing. I said that, these military philosophers, I would call them pseudo-intellectuals, they want to come in the limelight. You know the names, there are 2-3 people (almost a giggle). Now…, I have also absolutely heard it (the interview). Now…, I will ask you to challenge them. The first thing is, if you reduced the enrichment from 95% to 5% and if you asked (permission) Benazir, he said, Benazir and he had decided, the two decided this together. 4 four things they said. 1,2,3, 4 and 4th was this one. Actually roll back, this is rollback. What else is rollback? If you haven’t reached minimum deterrence level and you end enrichement, you have stopped your nuclear development. This is called rollback. I would like to ask him and Benazir Sahiba both, in my opinion the whole nation should ask them, why did you rollback at that time? Under what pressure?
Now look at this. Secondly, he has given another statement. That he referred to NCA. Don’t know, they must have seen NCA in dreams. There was nothing at that time. These things… Another thing I noted, when he (looks at his notes) … I think, he was saying, deployment…, at that time when there was confrontation between India and Pakistan. He himself was saying that I was not concerned with the development. Then he said, I took permission from Benazir about taking action-vaction against Hindoostan.
Two strategies are involement, two controls are involement. This NCA - development control and employment control. I don’t think they have any understanding of these two. One is development and the other is employment. Development, I have said it, is connected to that chain and certainly army chief is related. Employment is government decision. When it needs to be used and what needs to be used. Use of strength … so obviously, government has to come into play. So development’s answer cannot be from employment. He must have talked to Benazir about employment but development, certainly, was being decided by President and Army chief and science organization.
Question: Mr President, Why you could not provide the face saving to AQ Khan if you yourself have described him as national hero? Why he was brought on TV? This is the.. I.. it’s a bit emotional but I think many people will ask you this question. Thank you.
No, I pers..(garbled) I thought I provided with face saving. Meaning, meaning, from my side whatever I have done I have tried to shield him actually. I have not tried to... but there was a minimum. One has to balance between international requirements and shielding. I have told you, that you cannot shield a hero and damage the nation. That cannot be done. So the balance is required. In protecting the nation first of all and also shielding your hero. And I thought this fine line, the way we did it was the best way of doing it. This is our judgment. This was the judgment of the whole NCA and the cabinet. And this is what we thought was the best. And still I think that is the best way that one could do.
Question: You have said that minimum nucklear (sic) deterrence is one of the objectives of your administration. And whatever has happened in the recent past, this is not going to affect your program in that direction. But the important question is that we also have a peaceful nucklear development program which is also important to the country including the installation of atomic nucklear plants. What are your pro… what is your program in that particular field that is important for the country’s economy?
Now, when you are talking about deterrence theory you are talking about military use of nuclear power and in that we have to maintain our strategy to maintain a minimum deterrence level. And we have quantified this minimum deterrence level and we are fulfilling that. And I have very clearly said that mashallah, allamdullah we have crossed the minimum deterrence level. That side is well taken for. The other is peaceful use. In that you already know… Pervaiz Butt sahib you want to say something? Pervaiz Butt sahib, you say it.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
CIA director off mark on closed plant!
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/international/asia/07MALA .html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1076126920-vHiYrkxGlO9K28XA2sOPDA
'Business as Usual' at Plant That Tenet Says Was Shut
By RAYMOND BONNER and WAYNE ARNOLD
Published: February 7, 2004
HAH ALAM, Malaysia, Feb. 6 — In his speech at Georgetown University on Thursday in defense of American intelligence gathering, George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, claimed a clear, unequivocal victory against the black market nuclear proliferation network run by the Pakistani scientist A. Q. Khan.
"Malaysian authorities have shut down one of the network's largest plants," Mr. Tenet said.
He was referring to the Scomi Precision Engineering installation here in Shah Alam, which made centrifuge components found on a ship seized last October on its way to Libya. His assertion was categorical.
Then he repeated it during the question and answer period after the speech, saying that "the Malaysian government has closed the facility."
But he appears to have been mistaken.
"It's business as usual," said Rohaida Ali Badaruddin, director of communications for the plant's parent, the Scomi Group, as she led a group of reporters, mostly Malaysian, through the clean, modern, air-conditioned facility on Friday afternoon. "We are still doing our manufacturing," she said, "milling, turning, cutting."
An American intelligence official said Friday that Mr. Tenet's claim was a result of an editing error.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/international/asia/07MALA .html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1076126920-vHiYrkxGlO9K28XA2sOPDA
'Business as Usual' at Plant That Tenet Says Was Shut
By RAYMOND BONNER and WAYNE ARNOLD
Published: February 7, 2004
HAH ALAM, Malaysia, Feb. 6 — In his speech at Georgetown University on Thursday in defense of American intelligence gathering, George J. Tenet, the director of central intelligence, claimed a clear, unequivocal victory against the black market nuclear proliferation network run by the Pakistani scientist A. Q. Khan.
"Malaysian authorities have shut down one of the network's largest plants," Mr. Tenet said.
He was referring to the Scomi Precision Engineering installation here in Shah Alam, which made centrifuge components found on a ship seized last October on its way to Libya. His assertion was categorical.
Then he repeated it during the question and answer period after the speech, saying that "the Malaysian government has closed the facility."
But he appears to have been mistaken.
"It's business as usual," said Rohaida Ali Badaruddin, director of communications for the plant's parent, the Scomi Group, as she led a group of reporters, mostly Malaysian, through the clean, modern, air-conditioned facility on Friday afternoon. "We are still doing our manufacturing," she said, "milling, turning, cutting."
An American intelligence official said Friday that Mr. Tenet's claim was a result of an editing error.
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Tom A Hawwk
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
U.S. helps Pakistan safeguard nuclear material
By Carol Giacomo
WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (Reuters) - The United States is working with Pakistan to protect its nuclear technology from falling into the hands of extremists, a senior U.S. official said on Friday.
"We have had discussions with Pakistan on the need for Pakistan to safeguard its technology and its nuclear material. We are confident they are are taking the necessary steps," the official told Reuters.
He commented after NBC Television's "Nightly News" program reported that since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, American nuclear experts grouped as the "U.S. Liaison Committee" have spent millions of dollars to safeguard more than 40 weapons in Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.
"Meeting every two months, they are helping Pakistan develop state of the art security, including secret authorization codes for the arsenal," the network reported.
But the U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that U.S. law and the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, a cornerstone of efforts to curb the spread of weapons, "prevent any direct involvement with (Pakistan's) nuclear weapons."
"So we've had discussions with them generally about how they safeguard nuclear material," he said.
"We don't want their materials to get into the wrong hands but won't go over the edge of our law and the NPT," he said.
The reports about the U.S. role in Pakistan came in the midst of revelations that the father of Pakistan's nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, sold nuclear secrets to Libya and two members of President George W. Bush's "axis of evil," North Korea and Iran.
After confessing on television to blackmarket nuclear technology dealings and absolving Pakistan's military and government of blame, Khan was pardoned by President Pervez Musharraf in an apparent effort to lay the controversy to rest.
The United States has strongly defended Musharraf's handling of the scandal, reflecting a balancing act between its usual aggressive stance on punishing proliferation and its firm support for the Pakistani leader, a key ally in the U.S. anti-terror war.
Pakistan, like South Asian rival India, tested nuclear weapons in 1998.
The United States and the other four members of the world nuclear club -- Russia, France, Britain and China -- in the past have expressed alarm at this development.
But most concern has focused on Pakistan because of fears that Islamic fundamentalists may overthrow Musharraf -- the target of two recent assassination attempts -- and gain control of the nuclear bomb.
Since the 1998 nuclear tests, U.S. officials and experts have debated the extent to which they can provide India and Pakistan advice about safeguarding their nuclear technology.
Neither country is a member of the NPT and hence is not entitled to any assistance that might advance their nuclear weapons capability.
The United States recently got around this with India by offering safety assistance to New Delhi's civilian nuclear program, which is aimed at power generation.
02/06/04 22:16 ET
By Carol Giacomo
WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (Reuters) - The United States is working with Pakistan to protect its nuclear technology from falling into the hands of extremists, a senior U.S. official said on Friday.
"We have had discussions with Pakistan on the need for Pakistan to safeguard its technology and its nuclear material. We are confident they are are taking the necessary steps," the official told Reuters.
He commented after NBC Television's "Nightly News" program reported that since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States, American nuclear experts grouped as the "U.S. Liaison Committee" have spent millions of dollars to safeguard more than 40 weapons in Pakistan's nuclear arsenal.
"Meeting every two months, they are helping Pakistan develop state of the art security, including secret authorization codes for the arsenal," the network reported.
But the U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said that U.S. law and the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty, a cornerstone of efforts to curb the spread of weapons, "prevent any direct involvement with (Pakistan's) nuclear weapons."
"So we've had discussions with them generally about how they safeguard nuclear material," he said.
"We don't want their materials to get into the wrong hands but won't go over the edge of our law and the NPT," he said.
The reports about the U.S. role in Pakistan came in the midst of revelations that the father of Pakistan's nuclear program, Abdul Qadeer Khan, sold nuclear secrets to Libya and two members of President George W. Bush's "axis of evil," North Korea and Iran.
After confessing on television to blackmarket nuclear technology dealings and absolving Pakistan's military and government of blame, Khan was pardoned by President Pervez Musharraf in an apparent effort to lay the controversy to rest.
The United States has strongly defended Musharraf's handling of the scandal, reflecting a balancing act between its usual aggressive stance on punishing proliferation and its firm support for the Pakistani leader, a key ally in the U.S. anti-terror war.
Pakistan, like South Asian rival India, tested nuclear weapons in 1998.
The United States and the other four members of the world nuclear club -- Russia, France, Britain and China -- in the past have expressed alarm at this development.
But most concern has focused on Pakistan because of fears that Islamic fundamentalists may overthrow Musharraf -- the target of two recent assassination attempts -- and gain control of the nuclear bomb.
Since the 1998 nuclear tests, U.S. officials and experts have debated the extent to which they can provide India and Pakistan advice about safeguarding their nuclear technology.
Neither country is a member of the NPT and hence is not entitled to any assistance that might advance their nuclear weapons capability.
The United States recently got around this with India by offering safety assistance to New Delhi's civilian nuclear program, which is aimed at power generation.
02/06/04 22:16 ET
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Nobody (I mean in the international press) at all is asking (yet) how the nukes for missiles deal with Korea fits in with the whole charade about 'proliferation for greed' and the A.Q.Khan's 'personal network' with no Govt. involvement. What about the C130s? If the world is beginning to forget these things, it is our job to remind them. To keep reminding them. To demonstrate the hollowness of this entire charade, in which the Governments of US and UK are shamelessly involved.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Bingo!!Originally posted by Sridhar:
Nobody (I mean in the international press) at all is asking (yet) how the nukes for missiles deal with Korea fits in with the whole charade about 'proliferation for greed' and the A.Q.Khan's 'personal network' with no Govt. involvement. What about the C130s? If the world is beginning to forget these things, it is our job to remind them. To keep reminding them.
You'd have to be a fool to buy the story that the Pakistani govt wasnt involved at the highest levels with this barter of missiles for nukes. Musharraf even mentioned these missiles in his speech. No one asked him how Pakistan acquired them. Too bad. We could have watched him squirm then....
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
And folks, notice how Mush shows great annoyance at the use of the word "debrief". I think he knows how much fun we had here on the underwear undress. He reads BRF. 
Meanwhile, this is the editorial in the NY Times tomorrow:
Ending Pakistan's Nuclear Trade
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/opinion/07SAT3.html
Meanwhile, this is the editorial in the NY Times tomorrow:
Ending Pakistan's Nuclear Trade
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/opinion/07SAT3.html
There is an elaborate charade under way following the exposure of the barter and sale of Pakistani nuclear weapons technology to North Korea, Iran and Libya. On Thursday, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan's president, pardoned Abdul Qadeer Khan, the country's chief atomic bomb scientist, after a televised "admission" that he, alone, was guilty. Everyone engaged in this piece of theater knows that Dr. Khan was reading from a script. <u>Pakistan's military — and that means General Musharraf — was, without question, aware of and part of this illicit and perilous commerce.</u> Yet the Bush administration's reaction has been grateful acceptance.
After Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush said that his top priority was to prevent the proliferation of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons to terrorist groups and rogue nations. There is no escaping the fact that Iraq, which did not sell such arms, has been subject to military conquest, while Pakistan, the biggest violator, has been congratulated.
If this bewildering contradiction means that the United States has accomplished something behind the scenes, fine. Sometimes realpolitik requires allowing a man like General Musharraf, who has been helpful in the war against Al Qaeda and escaped two assassination attempts, to claim to be standing up to foreign pressures.
But there is every reason to be highly skeptical of General Musharraf, who dons a uniform and a defiant manner one day and switches to a business suit and soft tones the next.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Victor:
This thread is moving so fast that it has been posted more than once before and yet there are continued requests for links. The links are on pages 3 and 5 of this thread and also in the Pakistan News and Discussions thread. Anyway, here it is again.
rtsp://live2.pibc.com:7070/pv/smil/ptvnews/president_pc_020504.smil
For any PTV links, the place to check is
http://www.pakistanvision.com
This thread is moving so fast that it has been posted more than once before and yet there are continued requests for links. The links are on pages 3 and 5 of this thread and also in the Pakistan News and Discussions thread. Anyway, here it is again.
rtsp://live2.pibc.com:7070/pv/smil/ptvnews/president_pc_020504.smil
For any PTV links, the place to check is
http://www.pakistanvision.com
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
I shall translate from 1:02 to 1:17 hours. Volunteer needed for the remaining 16 minutes till the end.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Truly amazing performance by mush. Arranged to say openly that AQ did it for the money. Even wondered why people do stuff like this when they must go to the grave eventually! Shudder. I'm sure I missed important points because I don't understand pure Urdu but I could make out most of it. Sounded like a cheap lecturer and glib thug.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
I have done a further bit of translation from the 1:02 hours point till almost 1:19. I have updated my earlier post so that it is complete till this point.
R: all the pieces are collated in my post just a few posts above yours.
Folks: somebody needs to volunteer for the last 14 mins. It is not hard to do. I have a ton of work and have already spent quite a bit of time on this (I was taking time off from work this evening and hence did it today but have to get back to work from tomorrow onwards).
R: all the pieces are collated in my post just a few posts above yours.
Folks: somebody needs to volunteer for the last 14 mins. It is not hard to do. I have a ton of work and have already spent quite a bit of time on this (I was taking time off from work this evening and hence did it today but have to get back to work from tomorrow onwards).
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Gentlemen: I found the following interesting
8/29 - Pakistan states no link with Iran program
10/31 - Musharraf visits China
11/3 - Pak-China sign defense agreement.
11/6 - Pakistan protests bugging of HC in London
11/13 - Iran admits to enriched uranium
11/13 - Centcom chief Gen. Lance Smith calls on Musharraf.
11/14 - Pak says agrees with new US "strategy" on terrorism
11/15 - Pak receives CIA report on proliferation
11/16 - Pak re-bans 3 terrorist groups
11/20 - IAEA letter to Pakistan on proliferation
11/2? - Pak team visits Vienna (IAEA)
11/? - Pak team visits Iran
11/24 - Ceasefire offer
12/3 - Banned terror groups bank accounts frozen
12/6 - First four nuke scientists debriefed
12/8 - US launches "Operation Avalanche" in Afghanistan
12/13 - Assassination Attempt on Musharraf
12/13 - Saddam Captured
12/19 - Libya owns up to Nuke Program
12/22 - AQK is questioned for the first time
12/26 - Assassination Attempt on Musharraf (Real one?)
1/1 - Parliament Endorses Musharraf's presidency
1/4 - SAARC Summit ends
1/6 - India/Pak Agreement for dialogue
1/6 - US says Musharraf not involved in Libyan nukes
1/8 - Pak launches "offensive" on Afghan border
1/12 - Brajesh in China for Border Talks
1/13 - Bush announces strategic ties with India
1/13 - Hurriyat invited for talks on 1/22
1/17 - Top Hizb commander killed in JK
1/17 - Eight more nuke scientists to be debriefed
1/18 - Gorshkov deal signed
1/21 - Sinha meets Bush, Powell discuss next steps on strategic path
1/21 - Powell says Musharraf is taking "right steps"
1/22 - Hurriyat agrees to a "durable" solution
1/23 - Musharraf meets Cheney at Davos "we will act over nukes"
1/24 - David Kay replaced
1/26 - New Afghan Constitution is signed into law
1/28 - US plans for "spring offensive" publicized
1/29 - GHQ to be shifted to Islamabad
1/29 - AA missiles around Islamabad noted
1/29 - Pakistan Joint Chiefs meet
1/31 - AQK removed
2/1 - AQK admits guilt
2/5 - Tenet admits intel lapses in Iraq
2/5 - Musharraf pardon's AQK
Note for example:
1. The ceasefire offer comes after the Pakistani visit to IAEA in the context of Iran and presumably Libya
2. Attempt #1 was after the ceasefire and more importantly after debriefing of first 4 scientists
3. The second attempt was as soon as Libya owns up to its nuke program and shortly after AQK was debriefed for the first time.
4. The US gives Musharraf a clean chit followed by an ostensible Pakistani offensive on the Afghan border
5. The US then announces a spring offensive into Pakistan to get Omar and Osama, and immediately Islamabad goes on high alert with AA guns etc, and most importantly AQK is sacked.
8/29 - Pakistan states no link with Iran program
10/31 - Musharraf visits China
11/3 - Pak-China sign defense agreement.
11/6 - Pakistan protests bugging of HC in London
11/13 - Iran admits to enriched uranium
11/13 - Centcom chief Gen. Lance Smith calls on Musharraf.
11/14 - Pak says agrees with new US "strategy" on terrorism
11/15 - Pak receives CIA report on proliferation
11/16 - Pak re-bans 3 terrorist groups
11/20 - IAEA letter to Pakistan on proliferation
11/2? - Pak team visits Vienna (IAEA)
11/? - Pak team visits Iran
11/24 - Ceasefire offer
12/3 - Banned terror groups bank accounts frozen
12/6 - First four nuke scientists debriefed
12/8 - US launches "Operation Avalanche" in Afghanistan
12/13 - Assassination Attempt on Musharraf
12/13 - Saddam Captured
12/19 - Libya owns up to Nuke Program
12/22 - AQK is questioned for the first time
12/26 - Assassination Attempt on Musharraf (Real one?)
1/1 - Parliament Endorses Musharraf's presidency
1/4 - SAARC Summit ends
1/6 - India/Pak Agreement for dialogue
1/6 - US says Musharraf not involved in Libyan nukes
1/8 - Pak launches "offensive" on Afghan border
1/12 - Brajesh in China for Border Talks
1/13 - Bush announces strategic ties with India
1/13 - Hurriyat invited for talks on 1/22
1/17 - Top Hizb commander killed in JK
1/17 - Eight more nuke scientists to be debriefed
1/18 - Gorshkov deal signed
1/21 - Sinha meets Bush, Powell discuss next steps on strategic path
1/21 - Powell says Musharraf is taking "right steps"
1/22 - Hurriyat agrees to a "durable" solution
1/23 - Musharraf meets Cheney at Davos "we will act over nukes"
1/24 - David Kay replaced
1/26 - New Afghan Constitution is signed into law
1/28 - US plans for "spring offensive" publicized
1/29 - GHQ to be shifted to Islamabad
1/29 - AA missiles around Islamabad noted
1/29 - Pakistan Joint Chiefs meet
1/31 - AQK removed
2/1 - AQK admits guilt
2/5 - Tenet admits intel lapses in Iraq
2/5 - Musharraf pardon's AQK
Note for example:
1. The ceasefire offer comes after the Pakistani visit to IAEA in the context of Iran and presumably Libya
2. Attempt #1 was after the ceasefire and more importantly after debriefing of first 4 scientists
3. The second attempt was as soon as Libya owns up to its nuke program and shortly after AQK was debriefed for the first time.
4. The US gives Musharraf a clean chit followed by an ostensible Pakistani offensive on the Afghan border
5. The US then announces a spring offensive into Pakistan to get Omar and Osama, and immediately Islamabad goes on high alert with AA guns etc, and most importantly AQK is sacked.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Thanks for the translation/transcription folks
Interesting quotes:
Interesting quotes:
What contamination? Was this a paki-specific isotope signature?This mid 2003, IAEA inspectors had gone to Iran. Under pressure Iran allowed them, obviously. And they saw centrifuges there. They were shown those centrifuges. And they saw this that those centrifuges were Pakistani (dramatic voice), of Pakistani design. And this is correct. They had a contamination in them too, you might have read in the newspapers. It is possible those went from here itself. </font>
He is appealing to the press to withold proof of army/govt involvement in proliferation when that is uncovered.if you prove that this proliferation has been done by govt and military then what will happen is that we will become a rogue state and get sanctions applied. If we dont understand this then what else do we understand. One thing I would like to point out is that this is wrong. At least dont talk rubbish. In fact I would go that extent that even if this is true, you should not do this. Even then you should understand national interest.
The politician friends will have to be bought off - the are a risk to Musharaf - of the 10 others - those without friends will get screwed - the others will escape as their frinds get bought off.We have yet to decide on the others. But I do want to say that I am seeing their relatives - they appear on TV and cry and I also know that many politicians are backing them up and these politicians enfuriate them .. But the politicians behind them should really get their act together (baaz aa janaa chahiye).
Musharraf has been stung by the "debrief" word and refers to it with some irritation and expectaion that it will cause mirth.Eleven people are involved amongst whom is Dr. A.Q. Khan. Against him this whole investigation has been done. And let me tell you this also for your pleasure, that Mirza Aslam Beg and Jehangir Keramt were also debriefed.</font>
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
OK, here is 1:19 to 1:25. Man, this is tough work. You guys deserve a big pat on the back.Originally posted by Sridhar:
Folks: somebody needs to volunteer for the last 14 mins.
-------------------------------------------
Question: Sir, my name is Tahir Khalil connected with Daily Jung. I want to bring to your attention an interview by Gen Beg recently, a tv interview, he said that during Benazir’s duration Uranium enrichment was reduced to 5%. I want to seek your comment on it.
Yes, Its an unfortunate thing. I said that, these military philosophers, I would call them pseudo-intellectuals, they want to come in the limelight. You know the names, there are 2-3 people (almost a giggle). Now…, I have also absolutely heard it (the interview). Now…, I will ask you to challenge them. The first thing is, if you reduced the enrichment from 95% to 5% and if you asked (permission) Benazir, he said, Benazir and he had decided, the two decided this together. 4 four things they said. 1,2,3, 4 and 4th was this one. Actually roll back, this is rollback. What else is rollback? If you haven’t reached minimum deterrence level and you end enrichement, you have stopped your nuclear development. This is called rollback. I would like to ask him and Benazir Sahiba both, in my opinion the whole nation should ask them, why did you rollback at that time? Under what pressure?
Now look at this. Secondly, he has given another statement. That he referred to NCA. Don’t know, they must have seen NCA in dreams. There was nothing at that time. These things… Another thing I noted, when he (looks at his notes) … I think, he was saying, deployment…, at that time when there was confrontation between India and Pakistan. He himself was saying that I was not concerned with the development. Then he said, I took permission from Benazir about taking action-vaction against Hindoostan.
Two strategies are involement, two controls are involement. This NCA - development control and employment control. I don’t think they have any understanding of these two. One is development and the other is employment. Development, I have said it, is connected to that chain and certainly army chief is related. Employment is government decision. When it needs to be used and what needs to be used. Use of strength … so obviously, government has to come into play. So development’s answer cannot be from employment. He must have talked to Benazir about employment but development, certainly, was being decided by President and Army chief and science organization.
Question: Mr President, Why you could not provide the face saving to AQ Khan if you yourself have described him as national hero? Why he was brought on TV? This is the.. I.. it’s a bit emotional but I think many people will ask you this question. Thank you.
No, I pers..(garbled) I thought I provided with face saving. Meaning, meaning, from my side whatever I have done I have tried to shield him actually. I have not tried to... but there was a minimum. One has to balance between international requirements and shielding. I have told you, that you cannot shield a hero and damage the nation. That cannot be done. So the balance is required. In protecting the nation first of all and also shielding your hero. And I thought this fine line, the way we did it was the best way of doing it. This is our judgment. This was the judgment of the whole NCA and the cabinet. And this is what we thought was the best. And still I think that is the best way that one could do.
Question: You have said that minimum nucklear (sic) deterrence is one of the objectives of your administration. And whatever has happened in the recent past, this is not going to affect your program in that direction. But the important question is that we also have a peaceful nucklear development program which is also important to the country including the installation of atomic nucklear plants. What are your pro… what is your program in that particular field that is important for the country’s economy?
Now, when you are talking about deterrence theory you are talking about military use of nuclear power and in that we have to maintain our strategy to maintain a minimum deterrence level. And we have quantified this minimum deterrence level and we are fulfilling that. And I have very clearly said that mashallah, allamdullah we have crossed the minimum deterrence level. That side is well taken for. The other is peaceful use. In that you already know… Pervaiz Butt sahib you want to say something? Pervaiz Butt sahib, you say it.
----------------------------------------------
You can see the English/Urdu parts here:
http://www.geocities.com/nirvanax72/mushy.html
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
http://www.geocities.com/nirvanax72/mushy.html
Parts in bold are in English, everything else is Urdu.
Parts in bold are in English, everything else is Urdu.
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SunilMenon
- BRFite -Trainee
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Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Don't know if this was already posted, but more on Pakistan-Iraq nuclear nexus NBC nightly News
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Shiv: Generally the radioisotope ratios have a consistent signature, so much so that specific plants can be pinpointed.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
The Dallas Morning News
The following editorial appeared in the Dallas Morning News on Thursday, Feb. 5:
HEADLINE: Nuclear nightmare: Pakistani scientist puts U.S. in a quandary
The following editorial appeared in the Dallas Morning News on Thursday, Feb. 5:
HEADLINE: Nuclear nightmare: Pakistani scientist puts U.S. in a quandary
You've probably never heard of him, but Abdul Qadeer Khan is one of the most dangerous men in the world.
Dr. Khan is the scientist responsible for creating Pakistan's atomic bomb. Until Saturday, he was head of the country's nuclear research program. Pakistan's military ruler, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, sacked him after the United States and United Nations inspectors unearthed evidence that Dr. Khan was part of an international ring that sold nuclear weapons capabilities to Iran, Libya and North Korea.
Wednesday, Dr. Khan confessed his role to a national TV audience and asked forgiveness. Dr. Khan's supporters claim that his confession was coerced and that Gen. Musharraf has long known about the technology transfers. These allegations can't be easily dismissed. It's hard to believe nuclear secrets could be exported without the knowledge of the country's intelligence agency, especially since some material was shipped in Pakistani military aircraft.
Washington now has an extremely delicate situation. Gen. Musharraf literally may not be able to survive going further with the investigation, which would focus on Pakistan's military high command. And prosecuting Dr. Khan would bring the wrath of the nation's Islamist parties down on the uneasy head of the general _ who may be a double-dealing scoundrel, but in a nation vital to the war on terror, he's the only friend we've got.
Nevertheless, the United States must find out how the Khan mafia managed to evade international controls designed to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons.
If that means letting a rogue like A.Q. Khan skate and giving a pass to Pakistani military and government officials for any involvement in this scandal, then that's the bitter price we'll have to pay for our own security. Welcome, friends, to the post-Sept. 11 world.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Ashok, Sridhar, Rajesh, Raka thanks a million guys... that's really valuable stuff.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
did anybody listen to Diene Rhem show on NPR yesterday?
Dilip Hero talked about Saddam and Mushy
Dilip Hero talked about Saddam and Mushy
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Agreed, thank you gentlemen.
But did folk notice the one point that jumps up and grabs you by the throat in Mush's little venting moment?
Pak-Iran relations are cactus.
Irreparably, and probably for decades. The Iranians will never forget Mush's statement. Those of you who know anything about persian pride will get what I mean.
This is, I'm willing to bet, the Pak-Iranian equivalent of '62 for us. It will never go away. The Pakistanis will always nurse the suspicion that the Iranians dropped them in it because the Iranians are jealous of Pak "supremacy" via their nukes.
And the Iranians will, besides remembering that insult, likewise always remember that the Paks sold them a lemon on which they might have bet their lives on if the US had attacked them last year or whatever.
Even if Indo-Iranian ties somehow cool down - which I doubt - it will not mean an improvement in Pak-Iranian ties.
That's one freebie that Mush has given us - for a veeerryy looonngg time.
A Question: (just to stir things up a bit here!) At this rate of giveaways to India, can we afford to *not* have Mush running things in Pak Land?
But did folk notice the one point that jumps up and grabs you by the throat in Mush's little venting moment?
Pak-Iran relations are cactus.
Irreparably, and probably for decades. The Iranians will never forget Mush's statement. Those of you who know anything about persian pride will get what I mean.
This is, I'm willing to bet, the Pak-Iranian equivalent of '62 for us. It will never go away. The Pakistanis will always nurse the suspicion that the Iranians dropped them in it because the Iranians are jealous of Pak "supremacy" via their nukes.
And the Iranians will, besides remembering that insult, likewise always remember that the Paks sold them a lemon on which they might have bet their lives on if the US had attacked them last year or whatever.
Even if Indo-Iranian ties somehow cool down - which I doubt - it will not mean an improvement in Pak-Iranian ties.
That's one freebie that Mush has given us - for a veeerryy looonngg time.
A Question: (just to stir things up a bit here!) At this rate of giveaways to India, can we afford to *not* have Mush running things in Pak Land?
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Kgoan
From top of the head, two instances do come to mind which show, relations between Iran and Pakistan had cooled down already or started to cool down. And relations between India/Iran had picked up or started to pick up.
Yes, I am referring to the situation in 90s when Iran kind of made Pakistan to drop resolution against India on human rights issue, and Pakistan was hell bent upon on embarrassing India on this issue.
Second, going by some reports, last year itself Iran signed an agreement with India whereby Indian armed forces can use Iranian territory in certain situation/s.
From top of the head, two instances do come to mind which show, relations between Iran and Pakistan had cooled down already or started to cool down. And relations between India/Iran had picked up or started to pick up.
Yes, I am referring to the situation in 90s when Iran kind of made Pakistan to drop resolution against India on human rights issue, and Pakistan was hell bent upon on embarrassing India on this issue.
Second, going by some reports, last year itself Iran signed an agreement with India whereby Indian armed forces can use Iranian territory in certain situation/s.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Raj:
Yes, but the question is why?
According to the reports, the Pak-Iran nuke connection was as late as 2000. Yet everything stuffed up for between them post 9-11.
According to B Raman, after 9-11, the Pakistanis agreed to work against the Iranians for the US. It's not clear if the the Paks volunteered or the US asked, but it's irrelevant. They agreed - or so says B Raman.
Now the Iranians began leaking info of Pak prolif quite a while back - I had commented on it on previous Pak threads - which tends to vindicate Raman's story.
The thing to remember is that Pak policy is not monolithic. The seems to have been a pro-Iran clique in Pakistan for quite some time. This didn't start with Beg, it began with Bhutto - I think his wife or mother was Iranian. But Beg's stupidity did help to p!ss of the US in the early 90's.
So as long as this clique existed, there was always the possibility that Pak-Iran relations could one day improve dramatically.
That day has, I think, now been pushed back a deacde or more - and with the inevitable growth of Indo-Iranian economic and security interactions, probably permanently.
What's more, Mush's statement is going to add that little extra frisson of bitterness between the Iranians and Paks. And bitterness between 2 parties, y'know, always has a certain degree of potential for a third party. Look at China and the US in Indo-pak relations for example.
So all in all, I'm quite happy with Mush's tactical brilliance of stomping on the Iranians to make a silly point for his home crowd.
Yes, but the question is why?
According to the reports, the Pak-Iran nuke connection was as late as 2000. Yet everything stuffed up for between them post 9-11.
According to B Raman, after 9-11, the Pakistanis agreed to work against the Iranians for the US. It's not clear if the the Paks volunteered or the US asked, but it's irrelevant. They agreed - or so says B Raman.
Now the Iranians began leaking info of Pak prolif quite a while back - I had commented on it on previous Pak threads - which tends to vindicate Raman's story.
The thing to remember is that Pak policy is not monolithic. The seems to have been a pro-Iran clique in Pakistan for quite some time. This didn't start with Beg, it began with Bhutto - I think his wife or mother was Iranian. But Beg's stupidity did help to p!ss of the US in the early 90's.
So as long as this clique existed, there was always the possibility that Pak-Iran relations could one day improve dramatically.
That day has, I think, now been pushed back a deacde or more - and with the inevitable growth of Indo-Iranian economic and security interactions, probably permanently.
What's more, Mush's statement is going to add that little extra frisson of bitterness between the Iranians and Paks. And bitterness between 2 parties, y'know, always has a certain degree of potential for a third party. Look at China and the US in Indo-pak relations for example.
So all in all, I'm quite happy with Mush's tactical brilliance of stomping on the Iranians to make a silly point for his home crowd.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
B. Raman's latest article.
http://www.saag.org/papers10/paper916.html
How can it be ensured that the New York Times and WPs of the world pick this up?
http://www.saag.org/papers10/paper916.html
How can it be ensured that the New York Times and WPs of the world pick this up?
Pakistani sources claim that there has been another bombshell in the admissions of guilt made by Khan's colleagues and juniors, who are still under custody and questioning. They are reported to have stated that during his over 40 visits to Dubai in the last three years, <B>he had met Iraqi intelligence officials who sought his help in having some of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) material of Iraq airlifted from Syria to Pakistan for being kept in safe custody there to prevent their falling into the hands of the UN inspectors</B>. Khan allegedly agreed to their request. According to them, in October,2002, Khan had a Pakistani aircraft, which had gone to Iran to deliver some equipment, stop in a Syrian airport on its way back . <B>It picked up the Iraqi WMD "material" and brought it to Pakistan for safe custody on behalf of Iraq.</B> It is not clear what did they mean by material---only documents or something more?
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
ZA Bhutto's mother I think was a Hindu. Iran's sympathy for the Bhuttos has to do with the fact that they are Shia Muslims. Pakistani Shias have a long history of voting en massee for PPP and always looked up to Zulfikar and later to Benazir as their people at the top of the government.
PPP-Shia alliance is now gone thanks to the dirty games Benazir played while in power. In the late 80s and early 90s, when there were some efforts to bring a rapproachment between the warring Sunnis and Shias, she wanted to curry favour with the Sunni parties and gave a big hand to the Shias.
PPP-Shia alliance is now gone thanks to the dirty games Benazir played while in power. In the late 80s and early 90s, when there were some efforts to bring a rapproachment between the warring Sunnis and Shias, she wanted to curry favour with the Sunni parties and gave a big hand to the Shias.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Bleak future for Pakistan's 'bomb hero'
As Mr Khan paces his garden, filled with exotic birds, he probably won't reflect that the ultimate weapon, intended to earn Pakistan respect, has instead brought the label of rogue state.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Thanks Sridhar for that link. There is something in that article that substantiates what I said:
The unhappiness of Iran and Libya over the repeated humiliation of Benazir and her family by Musharraf. Benazir, whose mother Nusrat is stated to be a Shia, had always been closer to Teheran than any other Pakistani political or military leader.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Shiv,
The initial IAEA reports of the 250+ centrifuges identified at the Iranian complex did identify a Pakistani nuclear signature of some kind. I can't remember the exact wording, but I have the citation somewhere at work. I'll see if I can dig it up early next week.
Tim
The initial IAEA reports of the 250+ centrifuges identified at the Iranian complex did identify a Pakistani nuclear signature of some kind. I can't remember the exact wording, but I have the citation somewhere at work. I'll see if I can dig it up early next week.
Tim
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Colin Powell’s interview with the Washington Post’s editorial board February 3, 2004 :
And another one on February 6, 2004 :
That now moves me on to the Asahi Shibun interview of Richard Armitage where he says :
So perhaps the US has not after all bought the private enterprise thesis being peddled by the Pakistani’s and much will be happening in purdah.
Any volunteers to demolish this thesis ? Or add to it.
Interesting that he does not answer the question on what to do with A.Q.Khan and does not say that the Pakistani Military/ISI/Government is not involved.
QUESTION: On Pakistan, you've leaned pretty hard on Musharraf to crack down on A.Q. Khan and his friends. What will satisfy you in terms of a result there? Are you looking for A.Q.K. to be isolated? Are you looking for criminal charges, or are you simply looking for information? And is there information that you have that shows complicity on the part of the military or the Pakistani Government --
SECRETARY POWELL: I'm very pleased that President Musharraf, in response to information he's gotten from us and others and IAEA, really a lot that he's gotten from IAEA, has decided that he has to look at this, and is taking steps to investigate the activities of these individuals and organizations, that what we want to see is the end to any kind of proliferation of these kinds of technologies to anywhere in the world, and he's --
QUESTION: But following up just that one issue, do you have information or evidence that the Pakistani military has been -- that these are not rogue scientists, but in fact the Pakistani military has been either aware of it, has sponsored it, or that either ISI or the government has?
SECRETARY POWELL: If I had it, I would not share it in this setting.
QUESTION: Is there any concern based on evidence that he has sold nuclear materials
SECRETARY POWELL: He?
QUESTION: Khan -- to al-Qaida?
QUESTION: Or anybody else?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
QUESTION: Close affiliates of al-Qaida?
SECRETARY POWELL: I haven't seen anything, but you know, I don't have all the intelligence holdings in my brain at any one time.
And another one on February 6, 2004 :
Note the lack of response to the last question causing things to go on to a question on the Gulf War.
SECRETARY POWELL: Excuse me.
Andrea.
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, why is the United States accepting the agreement, the plea deal, basically, in Pakistan? Why isn't the United States more concerned about this pardon of A.Q. Kahn, given what we know about his proliferation to Libya, possibly Iran, certainly, North Korea?
It seems as though we're sending the wrong signal to proliferators around the world. And he is the biggest.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, the biggest is now gone, so I think that is a remarkable success.
QUESTION: Without punishment?
SECRETARY POWELL: The biggest is now gone, and so we don't have to worry about proliferation from Mr. A.Q. Khan or his network. And this is a success for the international community, for those of us who have been pressing all governments to go after these kinds of proliferators. And I'm pleased that President Musharraf realized that he had to do something about this network.
Now the action he took with respect to pardoning Mr. Khan is something that he felt it was appropriate for him to do and he has explained his position thoroughly. I expect to be talking to President Musharraf over the next several days to make sure that there is a full understanding of what the A.Q. Khan network has done over the years so that there are no remnants of it left, and then there's no possibility of further proliferating activities coming out of that network.
And that's our goal, number one, with respect to his accountability and this is a matter between Mr. Khan, who is a Pakistani citizen and his government. But it is a matter also that I'll be talking to President Musharraf about.
QUESTION: Just a follow-up, do you think that Mr. Musharraf did not know? Could Musharraf not have known?
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, would you be able to talk about the damage that's been done to the U.S. diplomatic relations with the international community in the wake of the Gulf War before and after? What do you see that needs to be done to repair the damage to improve America's standing, both with our allies who weren't with us on the war and with the international community?
That now moves me on to the Asahi Shibun interview of Richard Armitage where he says :
That again is a whole lot different than saying they (as in the Government ) is not involved.
We do not have any information that they are involved.
So perhaps the US has not after all bought the private enterprise thesis being peddled by the Pakistani’s and much will be happening in purdah.
Any volunteers to demolish this thesis ? Or add to it.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
ZA Bhutto's second wife Nusrat(Benazir's mother) was born Iranian.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Rangudu:
Can you please forward the above paper by Sri B. Raman to some of your sources/friends?
Can you please forward the above paper by Sri B. Raman to some of your sources/friends?
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
OK Folks, here is the whole enchilada. I have added the remaining 11 minutes or so.
Mushy's Urdu Press conference transcripts translated into english. Total duration 1:35:49
In the name of Allah the merciful. Ladies & Gentlemen, it is indeed my pleasure in addressing you and answering you, whatever question you have. But since this is a mixed gathering , or although it is a mixed gathering, I am compelled to speak in my mother tongue, Urdu, because what I am going to talk is more for the domestic audience. But wherever important I will indicate and also turn into English.
[Urdu begin]
This is a very historic conference, this conference, many things have happened, many historic things have happened and I haven’t met you in a while. Therefore I thought that this is an opportunity where I come in front of you and talk with you freely.
Gentlemen, Pakistan at this time, in my opinion is standing at a fork in the road. I have said this many times but I would like to repeat, because I am not merely talking empty, this is correct, this is indeed.
On one side, this fork is such that on one side we can make progress, prosperity, development and towards happiness we can go, if we adopt the correct path and keep going. Because we are at that stage to be able to go along that path. On the other side if we leave the correct path, keep going backwards, especially a defeatist mentality, a tendency of negativism and cyinicism if we adopt, if we keep crying over ourselves, and leaving the correct path, a downward path is also clear for us which I think our coming generations will never forgive. Because in my view there is an opportunity, this opportunity was never there before, and we are wasting this opportunity.
In this state of affairs, at this fork in the road our country is standing. Upon us, internationally there have been four accusations. This also I have told many times. But I will like to repeat twice. First, that whatever is happening in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan. Whatever is happening in IHK, Indian held Kashmir, that also is happening from Pakistan. Whatever nuclear proliferation has happened, that also has happened from Pakistan. And internally Pakistan is a terrorist, extremist and fundamental society. These four negative perceptions are common in the world. I am telling this with full confidence, I have just returned from abroad, and approximately met all the media leaders of the world, in Davos. All of them ask me this same question. Definitely I keep on giving clarifications. Definitely I keep trying to protect Pakistan.
[Urdu end]
[English begin]
Today I am not going to talk on these four issues. Today I will talk only on nuclear proliferation. I am talking only on nuclear proli… (fumbles for correct pronunciation), proliferation. I am not talking of anything else. But I would accept question on Kashmir also. Because this is the Kashmir day, 5th of February, and I have just come back from Muzaffarabad, aftyer addressing Azad J&K assembly and council, and I have spoken my mind there. Whoever has heard it, or whatever points you have, I would be too glad to answer questions on nuclear proliferation, nuclear aspect and Kashmir. But I am talking only of nuclear proliferation. [English end]
[Urdu begin]
Nowadays in all international media, talk is of nuclear proliferation, all the time CNN, BBC, any, anywhere in the world, these same talks are taking place. And Pakistan and Pakistan’s scientists are at the centerstage. It is also being said that Pakistan is a main source, hub, of nuclear proliferation activity. It is regrettable that one can see in many of our local media, that even they are pushing this forward that, government is also involved, military are also involved, scientists too, and also that scientists are not but govt and army are. They perhaps don’t realize that what could be the consequence of these things. Do they do this knowingly, or taking instructions from outside, or else they have no sense. In any case I would like to tell you for your understanding what could happen.
If the government is involved, first thing, UN security council could apply sanctions on us. And in this vein, if you look at N. Korea, and remember Iran and Libya. Look at this also who used to talk big, and now who have genuflected, who are lying supine, remember this too. Pardons are being asked, who is asking for pardons, we or others? Second thing is this, that people say that we are irresponsible government, so sign CTBT, NPT and rollback. Third thing, there are a few rouge states, we could join them too. The government doesn’t know how to do anything, so lets declare them rogues. And fourth thing, it can happen, that our vital national interests come under physical danger.
This I have told you upfront, these dangers are. We, our community, if its wants to get into this, then lets go, let me join you too. Lets move forward, (lets see) which way we will come out.
Where critical national interests are facing dire consequences, as they are now, there emotional, parochial, political (considerations) should be given up. We should work with seriousness. After thinking, decisions should be made and actions taken. First of all (above all), actions for Pakistan should be taken. In the minds t one thing we should have, Pakistan. What we need to save, what we need to take forward. This is not the time for emotionalism, neither for politics.
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
This can be divided into two periods. Pre 98, post 98, covert and overt. There was a covert period during which we had to hide everything, we had to hide it from the world and move forward. What is a better way to hide something from the world, to move forward? Courage was needed, passion was needed, and intelligence was needed. Now what happened in this period? India did its own nuclear test in 74. And tilted the equilibrium of deterrence. There was equilibrium in conventional, they brought a non-conventional disequilibrium. We had to fix that.
So, in 1976, Dr. A.Q. Khan came to Pakistan. His work started in June 1976. I give its full credit to Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto sahib that he initiated this program. To maintain our deterrence level he started a program. But in 1977 July it ended! He got separated (removed by Zia?). In this one year, other than finding a location, selecting a location, and starting the construction activity, nothing else happened. You can judge yourself in one year, here (incomprehensible part) also keep getting made. So this job was done. And during this period who was there? Mr. Bhutto was there and Mr. A.Q. Khan was there. And no one else knew. This is a good thing, a correct thing, this I am not saying that this is wrong. It was a correct method(?).
Then the period of Mr. Zia started. After 1977, and who was dealing with it then, now I accelerate a bit, who was dealing with it? Zia, president Zia, and A.Q. Khan. He was the president, he was the army chief. Two men. For assistance, for financial control, Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan perhaps used to get involved, for the finances. And one staff officer was there, Gen Zamin I think, Major General Zamin, Zamin Naqvi, he was involved. That’s all. But directly actually president and Mr. A.Q. Khan… scientists.
After that, post Zia period came, during which Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan became president. Then Benazir, then Nawaz Sharif, then again Benazir, again Nawaz Sharif, in this Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Mr. Leghari and Mr. Tarar (were presidents). And during this time everything, president, army chief and scientists, period. Neither government was involved nor the army was involved. Only during General Waheed’s(sp?) time, there is a (post of) director general combat development of army in GHQ, Major General (Waheed) was (that) during that time. He was included as a staff officer, since the organization had grown, to deal with it collectively, a Major Genral was brought in. So that he keeps on dealing with the chief. Army was not involved. I myself was sitting in GHQ as the Director General Military operations, I was not involved, I did not know what was going on. Directly, president, army chief, director general combat development, scientific organization. No government, no army, no navy or air force.
This was the pre covert period that I have talked about. During that period this was happening. This was an excellent way to maintain secrecy, and to carry the program forward. I congratulate all the presidents, all the army chiefs, that they kept this secret. They showed determination, they demonstrated resolve, and due to Allah’s mercy they kept taking this program forward. They didn’t come under any pressure. Since it was a secretive program. I congratulate all of them.
Now, post 98, we became a nuclear state, accepted, declared. We didn’t have any need to hide anymore. That is why I formed the national command authority, strategic plan division, army- navy-air force strategic force command was formed. Now, government’s hand is there, army’s hand is there. If something comes out now, then I am responsible. As much government is responsible, so much I am responsible. If anything happens now.
Therefore we should have it clear that the correct method during the covert period, pre 98, this sequence has gone on…covert, this..moved in a clandestine way. During which total financial autonomy, administrative autonomy, security autonomy, was held by the organization. Then, to say this that, how did it happen..? Security was under the organization itself. No one else was checking. Money, total financial, there was no external audit. Local audit, own, internal audit. And I tell you this was the correct way. Because otherwise perhaps we wouldn’t have advanced.
Therefore, I have given this so much time to it due to this reason, gentlemen, that I could prove to you, that it is absolutely true that neither the government is involved nor the govt officials are involved nor the army is involved. And given the maximum autonomy, clandestine covert operation, financial autonomy, administrative autonomy and security autonomy, everything that has happened could have happened. And this is surely what has happened. Now it can’t happen.
One more wild accusation, they say, what is this investigation, how has it been done, it hasn’t been brought up in the assembly, no one was told, it wasn’t debated upon, it hasn’t come out on TV, there haven’t been any charges that have been leveled. This is useless type of talk. Whenever there is any accusation, and that too of such a sensitive matter, then do we go and announce it on the radio? Obviously there is secrecy. Why should we tell, we are not going to tell. Since we don’t know what the facts are. So, unless I get those facts, why should I tell anyone else? Since there are such big names involved. And in any case the case hasn’t even started. Then what charges? There are no charges. The case hasn’t even started. A preliminary investigation is going on. Do we not understand this? And when the preliminary investigation was completed then FIR was lodged, now there is an FIR. And now when I made the decision, that is now, now ask me what it is. Now I will tell you. I will freely tell you.
Now I would like to give a brief background of this case. This mid 2003, IAEA inspectors had gone to Iran. Under pressure Iran allowed them, obviously. And they saw centrifuges there. They were shown those centrifuges. And they saw this that those centrifuges were Pakistani (dramatic voice), of Pakistani design. And this is correct. They had a contamination in them too, you might have read in the newspapers. It is possible those went from here itself.
After that there was pressure, full. Those whose (great) examples people used to mention here, they genuflected! We were named. Scientists were named. After that even Libya followed. Genuflecting. They stuffed boxes full of data and gave away. “Here are sir, Pakistan’s”.
In this situation, when these developments were taking place, we moved very fast. We immediately started our investigation, obviously secret, and we found that no government involvement is there. Some individuals are involved. Yes, they are involved. Completely involved. Initial enquiry has been done. Debriefing they said, I said again and again, who has come up with this term “debriefing”, lets cut this, lets call his an investigation, I don’t know from where this has come. Anyway, someone used it once, and it kept on going, now only “debriefing” is happening. In any case call it debriefing, or call it an investigation, call it an enquiry, whatever, I don’t care for the terminology. Eleven people are involved amongst whom is Dr. A.Q. Khan. Against him this whole investigation has been done. And let me tell you this also for your pleasure, that Mirza Aslam Beg and Jehangir Karamat were also debriefed.
These all investigations we ourselves have done, Pakistanis have done it. Not a single person came from outside. No coercion has been used. Unnecessary talks, this is this, this is that. All of them are sitting totally alright, healthy. There is nothing like that. Since all the evidence is documentary who can deny it? We can put it in front of their faces and say look! All, there is nothing like that (coercion), all the investigations have been completed.
Findings… unfortunate,.. all proliferation, … unfortunately,… under the supervision or orders of Dr. A.Q.
No government official, no military man, is not involved. This I tell you with full faith(?). This started in eighties, proliferation, and A.Q. Khan retired in 2001, and it ended around that time. Another thing that came out, is that a whole underworld is involved. And it makes sense, we have also made our demonstrable force, that too we haven’t been buying things openly. Obviously there is an underworld, and Pakistan should not be blamed for this. And if we look, all the atomic powers of the world in the beginning have been made with the help of the underworld. We have made it with the help of underworld, so has India. No one can pinpoint Pakistan. Underworld is there, which is there also in European countries, Asian countries, and there is a whole web, in details of which I don’t wish to go. But where there is a root in Pakistan, the fabrication is taking place in European and other countries, and Dubai is the transportation center. So this is an underworld that is functioning. It is functioning from here. Those European countries are involved, their people are involved, and Pakistanis are also involved. These are the findings.
I want to deduce this, that whoever takes this in a very light mood, that what if proliferation has happened, it has happened amongst the muslim brothers. Then one is not a really muslim brother (North Korea). And the other (proliferation) that has happened amongst the muslim brothers, lets look at the consequence of giving it to them. They didn’t ask us when they named us! So I want to say this that above all there is Pakistan. Forget all others. Don’t have erroneous ideas. If we have to be saved, if we have to bring power, and if we have to stay, stay here, then we should learn a lesson.
Now some say that we are undermining the heroes. I would like to answer this. That I have heroes too, (A.Q. Khan) is my hero too, has always been, he is even now. He is, because he has made Pakistan a great power. This Dr. A.Q. Khan has made. No one can negate this, no one can cancel this, no one can prove this wrong. This is the reality. Prestige and (incomprehensible) only this hero has given us.
But when I sit down to philosophize this issue, when we have such kinds of heroes, he is Dr. A.Q., we make them larger than life. We seat them on our heads (a phrase in Urdu meaning giving great respect). We praise them to sky. A larger than life, higher than human level. But they remain human beings. Then one feels sorry, feels sad, feels angry, feels pained, that this larger than life figure has made mistakes. Since even he is a human being like us. This is the reality. [Urdu end]
[English begin]The only question then arises “Is Pakistan important or is the hero important” (dramatic voice). Pakistan is important. My job here, number one, protect my nation. And number two, protect the honor and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. [English end]
[Urdu begin] This can’t happen that in trying to save the hero I destroy the country. I won’t do that. Whatever dangers come upon me, this can’t happen.
Even if there is some danger on myself - this will not happen. So this is the reality. This is the dilemma. This is how I spent my Eid - in this dilemma, this reality. Lets leave these matters alone for a while . What happened was that Dr AQ Sahab confessed his guilt what you watched on tv. And then people started talking about this - that somebody forced him to, to save the nation but in reality nothing like that happened. I have told you everything. What I have said is the truth. There is not a single bit of falsity in his confession. He has erred. But he is our hero. There is no pressure on us. Nobody is telling me to punish him, release him, or do this or that. NcA convenes, we sit together, we talk about it, we talk for 4 hours and then we take a decision and we work accordingly. We work to the best of our intelligence and abilities. Nobody tells us. Nobody calls us over telephone, not even once. We will do as we feel like what we decide. NCA has considered, cabinet meeting has been convened and have recommended pardon and as a president I have decided to pardon Dr AQ as he is our national hero but he has commited some errors which is unfortunate but still I have decided to pardon him. I have said something that is very lengthy.
In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, we follow a very open media policy and we have given maximum liberty to opposition. They talk anything. But you must understand. Pakistan comes first. It is unfortunate that we bring politics into everything (zatiyat main siyasat ??) and even in sensitive issues (like nuclear) in which we discussed already what can happen, we do the same things over there too. Then when I say national interest people write it in inverted commas and say what is this guy talking about "national interest", "national interest". If we dont understand this much that what is national interest - that my friend if you prove that this proliferation has been done by govt and military then what will happen is that we will become a rogue state and get sanctions applied. If we dont understand this then what else do we understand. One thing I would like to point out is that this is wrong. At least dont talk rubbish. In fact I would go that extent that even if this is true, you should not do this. Even then you should understand national interest. What I am trying to tell you, that Iran and Libya gave away all papers. What is happening there ? What is the media doing there ? Everything has been rolled back. Everything is finished. Tell me what is their media doing. Are they shouting ? Is the population crying ? They understand national interest.... That maybe this was in national interest and they are sitting quietly. And here even though things are alrite people are trying to falsify it and drown(harm) national interest. That is all that I have to say.
I will take questions.
Some announcer : Ladies and gentlemen may I request you to identify yourself. Please wait to be recognised.
Some bearded guy (kinda old) around 50:12 : I am saying one thing, Musharraf Saheb. In the past 4 years you have pulled the nation out of many a calamity and have taken us towards the road to progress and recently by promoting-jamhooriyat(dunno what this means) you have done such an immense favour to the quam that the quam is never going to forget. I have one question, Sir. That Dr Abdul Qadder has confessed to you and the nation and you have forgiven him but do you think this matter will come to end here ??
Musharraf : You leave that to me. At this time we have decided. NCA has decided. Cabinet has decided. That this is the decision. Now, Insha-allah, I stand between Dr AQ Sahib and International-Whatever-that comes. Inshaallah nothing will happen.
Simon Somebody from Reuters.. around 51:59 : You told us that no military officials were involved. But many people remain to be convinced about this fact. And there are 3 things that Pakistan might be asked to do to convince people that this is indeed the case. One of those would be to hand over all of the documents to the IAEA and give them all of the evidence. The second which is being asked by some pakistani politician (Mush seen writing some notes down) is a full independent investigation into this which looks into the military's role. And the third thing which is being asked for in an editorial in washington post is for pakistan to submit to UN supervision of its weapons program. I would ask you if any of those, how you would respond to any of those three suggestions to convince those of that the military is indeed not involved.
Musharraf : Negative to all the three of them. We dont do that. (looks pretty p1ssed). We are an independent nation. Nobody comes in and checks our things. We check them ourselves. There are europeans involved. Have you gone and asked them ? That the same thing should be done there also. That they should submit their documents. That the govt should come forward and get the united nations there. Have you asked them this ? This is a soverign country (pumping fists) . Nobody, no document will be given. No independent investigations will take place here and we will not have the united nations coming in here but if anyone in the IAEA wants to come here and ask us and come and discuss what else have we found and investigate it by all means we are open and we will tell them everything. And let me also say you should see what the US is saying, what other countries are saying , leave the media aside and see their official comments. So certainly all these countries have found out, they have investigated , they have investigated the underworld. Everyone is at the moment investigating the underworld and we know the reality and they know the reality. They know that the govt is not involved. They know that the military is not involved. And that is enough for us. It is the media who is saying whatever you are saying.
Around 54:27
Another old spectacled guy : The rest of the 10 involved, in this proliferation, that they had done all this on Dr Khan's orders, is their fate decided or is yet to be decided.
Musharraf : First of all, we had to do the toughest job, which we have concluded. We have yet to decide on the others. But I do want to say that I am seeing their relatives - they appear on TV and cry and I also know that many politicians are backing them up and these politicians enfuriate them . Nobody should pressurise us. Ek to choree , doosra sinaajoree. (Roughly -> robbing and then chest-thumping ?). I would like to tell the relatives of these people who might be listening right now. First you should ask you father and your brother that when they were out to sell pakistan and put pakistan in this mess - where were they. Is that their character ? Go and ask your father or brother. And as to what are we going to do with them, we will make a decision on that . It needs some though. Its not such a simple matter. Because we have accepted Dr Sahab's mercy petition . We will have to see what should be done to them. But we will take a realistic stand and whatever govt decides we will have to do. So far we have not decided. But the politicians behind them should really get their act together (baaz aa janaa chahiye).
Around 56:16
Questioner : My name is Salim Bukhari and I am editor of "News" newspaper. Sir, the concern you have told us about regarding pakistan , there cannot be 2 opinions on that (kinda like no question about that) but for common people, those who also feel for pakistan the nation, is that the investigation you are doing - wont those things be used against us as evidence. The people who I have talked to say that today the US is stuck in Afghanistan and so they are taking all of this a little easily but are there any guarantees, if the words are bad please forgive me, have you considered things in that direction or not.
Musharraf (57:09) : No I wont mind at all. Just got a little sentimiental . But you can ask. Look, at this time we are facing 4 kinds of misperceptions, 4 very strong negative perceptions, that whatever is happening in afghanistan is from here, kashmir, internally we are extremists and fundamentalists. If we dont address these perceptions as I have already said then due to any reason , then people are just looking for excuses, excuses to catch us and squeeze us. You will hand over the excuse to them. That is the reason I am saying that if we walk on the right path then nobody is asking us to stop anything.. Nothing is happening. We just have to tell the world that we are a responsible state. We are against terrorism. We dont want Al Qaeda and Taliban here . We are going to go against them . And we are firm against them . We are looking for a resolution on Kashmir in a peaceful manner which is happening right now. Our society is moderate. Its not an extremist and toleratant(freudian slip?) society. If we just do this , Inshallah nobody is going to do anything to us. Otherwise there is the danger, the one you are talking about.
Questioner (Around 58:48) : Mr President Mujahid Brelvi (?). Sir you said that whatever has been going on. Dr Khan on the peopl under his supervision have been doing - this question keeps rising in many people's minds that our (intelligence) institutions have been strong. Even keep and eye on political activities. Even our state is not a banana republic but whatever has been happening - Dr Khan and his 11 accomplices have been doing - Why did these institutions keep their eyes closed . Arent they responsible also ? And if they are then should we investigate them just as you said Mirza Aslam Beg and Jahangir Karamat have been investigated. The other heads of agencies - are we going to question them ?
Musharraf (59:36) : You are absolutely right. There are definitely going to be doubts in people's minds. I completely agree that people are going to doubt but I did give a pretty lengthy explanation about this but I am going to give you another one at a different angle so that you understand. Thing is that there is this organisation, for example KRL, it was Dr Khan's org. There is work going on there. What is the security like ? One retired soldier or brigadier goes there and he gets to be in command over there. He reports to him (Dr Khan). He is indebted to him . He gets paid by him . He is going to get promoted by him. After retirement or service , its there that he is going to get a job. Thats one thing. Second thing. If I am a boss of some place and I am taking something away from there then is a guard going to check me out ? Would anybody even dare to check my car ? Thats the other thing. Third thing is that this knowledge that we are talking about - this is design. It can be done on this piece of paper. Put that in your pocket and go. How much is a centrifuge's design. Just this much (extends his hand, shows how long) piece of paper. He will say take this piece of paper. And how big is a nuke design. I can write it down on a piece of paper. Its in my computer. Its in my mind. How are you going to check that. Its not a plane-load. If something is in my mind and if I go and tell somebody then who is going to check. How is ISI going to know. Its on a piece of paper, computer , in my mind and on top of that the person is in charge. So this is what happened. And nobody was involved with him. Absolutely. This is our finding. And we have told this after investigating everybody. And if somebody was involved then we would have taken them to task.
Question (unknown journalist): You are assuring that there will be no rollback. But there is news coming (about it), and I can see that you are also somewhat concerned as to why such news comes – there has been talk of economic sanctions also. Now regarding Japan – I know that Pakistan is telling them to restore the economic assistance that was suspended in 1998… Japan has been our biggest donor, with assistance of 500MM dollars, now because of the North Korean angle, do you think that this aid, which was to be restored will again be put in jeopardy?
Mushy: Nothing is happening. That is why I am saying that when we ourselves write these 15 article…ourselves…it is said that ‘Aa bail mujhe maar’ (a saying in Hindi/Urdu – literally translated as ‘Hey bull, come and hit me’ ….means ‘inviting problems’) Nobody is telling us anything, but we ourselves tell them – come to such and such place and catch us (red handed). Get this (the nuclear programme) ended. There is nothing. Our relations with Japan are very good, sir. Our relations with all countries are good. At this point, there is not a single country with which our relations are bad, including that country – India – they are improving there. Our relations with Russia are very good and are developing a lot. And the others are there in any case – we have no problems. There is no basis to the talk that economic assistance from Japan is going to end, etc. etc. Because they understand that these are some individuals who have proliferated. That is what I am telling you – it is us who are bent on telling them “No, these are not individuals alone. It is the Government (that is involved)” so that they can come and end it all. That is what I am saying for all this while, do we need any enemy, we are ourselves telling them “Come, end the aid because the Government is involved”. They know that these are individuals. And we are bent on proving to them that these are not individuals. That the Government is involved.
Question (M.A.Niazi, The Nation): Two background clarifications. First – when we became overt after the Chagai tests of 1998, the NCA has been formed in about 2000, so in that intervening period, you were telling us about how the authority was functioning , can you please explain what was the arrangement in this period. Second, sir, in 2001, Dr. A.Q.Khan, along with the retiring Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, were both kicked upstairs.
Mush: Sorry, say again?
Niazi: they were both kicked upstairs. i.e. they were removed from their executive positions and made advisers to the Chief Executive.
Mush: yes
Niazi: so at that time, did the Government have any inkling that there were problems because of which these changes had to be made?
Mush: Yes. I became Army Chief in October 1998. As soon as I came (into that office), the first task that I took up with Nawaz Sharif Sahib, I think in early 1999, I started saying that all these organizations of ours, let us bring this under an effective command structure. And at that time, we launched a study and started developing the parameters for this. In some months, we developed them, I don’t remember exactly when…Qidwai (head of the Strategic Planning Division of the NCA, sitting in the audience), you remember when? (To Qidwai) April 1999? What did we do in April 1999? We had that in …to Nawaz Sharif…(to audience) in April 1999, we presented a structure to Nawaz Sharif Sahib. (To Qidwai) and when did he approve that? …yeah, ok…till I became Chief Executive, ok…I kept telling him several times that this is an organizational method, let us bring it into custodial control, good command and control. There was a presentation in April 1999. He heard it but he did not approve it. Lethargy as usual, thinking that this is an unimportant sort of thing. When I became Chief Executive in 1999, I immediately took this action.. (to Qidwai) when did we finally approve it? (to audience) we approved it in February 2000. And we had all this organization on ground. And from there, I told them to end the SPD (Strategic Planning Division of the GHQ) and told them here to create a Secretariat. And I moved them out. In Chaklala, the SPD…Strategic Planning Division…there is a full Secretariat, elaborate Secretariat under his command…and this comes under the Joint Staff HQ…under the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff…answerable directly to the President and the PM through the NCA. So this is the organization that we have made.
Now, the second question of yours…[Start English]yes, sir.[End English] That is correct. When we made this organization in 2000, the biggest thing was that we centralized its security. We centralized the intelligence..uh.. security of all the scientific organizations. Under the SPD. When we centralized this, all the checks and balances came to us. We moved from decentralization to centralization. We took over financial control. Started a total external audit system. We brought in total checks and balances. When we did this, we started seeing some things. And that is why… it was no easy step that I took at that time. And I immediately took the step and rectified it.
[Start English]Question (Humayun Gauhar – also referred to as Humayun Gobar on the forum): You just said that, quite rightly, that when a Brigadier is in charge of security, nobody under him is going to check him when he leaves the building. You also said in Davos that the scientists, some of them at least, they did it for greed.
Mush: they did it for…?
Gobar: greed.
Mush: for?
Gobar: for money, corruption, bribe, whatever you want to call it. We had been hearing stories, rumors, more than rumors, about the corruption of the scientists including Dr. A.Q.Khan, the houses that they made, the presents that they gave and so on and so forth. At that time, were the security agencies or whoever, the Government themselves – did it not occur to them to at least take a look? That when there is so much smoke, there might be a fire?
Mush: I will, I will agree to that. Yes, he was spending money right, left and center. I mean I know that… [End English] you must have seen that near Sohawa (?) there is a beautiful monument dedicated to Shahabuddin Ghauri.. [Start English]I don’t know how much (was spent on it). So, this was going on. But as I said[End English] , see, …. come I shall not pursue that point. [Start English]There is some… I am not a secretive man but some things even I have to.[End English]. The thing is that [Start English] if you…in the covert stage especially.. in the covert stage… [End English] if you are developing them, [Start English]you want to go forward, and have a nuclear device. You want to become a nuclear state. You want to have your missile power. Because there is a disequilibrium. And you want to set that right. Do you want to… which is your focus? You want to get hold of a man who is doing that? For you? And remove him? So that this programme becomes zero? Or overlook certain things? So I think pre… in the covert period, there was autonomy. He was tasked to do something. And he did it. So therefore, I am afraid, one couldn’t be that intrusive, I would say. For the fear that what you desire may not be accomplished. So I think it was a … those were complexities of the time.
Question (Victoria ???, Sunday Telegraph): Mr. President, if I speak in my mother tongue…in your speech this morning to the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Assembly (PoK Assembly) you mentioned that you had been quoted out of context on the UN resolutions. First I wanted you to tell me what your position is on the UN resolutions as you lead up to the talks with India. And secondly, you again made a distinction in your speech between freedom fighting and terrorism. The United States has said that no distinction can be made between freedom fighting and terrorism. So I would appreciate your comments on that as well.
Mush: The first point, on the UN Security Council Resolutions. I have been.. it has been said that I have said that it is no more there or that I rejected the basis of the UN Security Council resolutions. Now the UN resolution is not a simple piece of paper which I can just throw away like that (points to the paper on his table). The point is .. what the point I was making and that is our stand, that all our.. Pakistan’s stand on Kashmir remains as it was..there is no change as yet. But I had said that we must start the process of dialogue, And that must contain Kashmir. We must start moving forward on Kashmir. Now when And in that also, I had said, and I still maintain, it cannot be unilateral. It has to be by both sides. By India and by Pakistan. We are prepared to be flexible, I said. We ought to move beyond stated positions. At that time, not now. I cannot take a unilateral decision that this is what we will do, whatever India does. No, that is not the case. We start moving forward. And when the time for the resolution of the dispute comes, when we start discussing what is the solution to Kashmir, then we must show flexibility and resolve and boldness to leave stated positions and move forward. Both, not unilaterally. This is our stand. The other, when you talk of freedom. Yes, that may be the US stand. But Pakistan’s stand is very clear. That whatever is happening in Kashmir, we don’t call it terrorism. Certainly, there is a freedom struggle going on. Nobody has been able to define what is terrorism really. And I made it… in my speech…at the United Nations I said, “We need to define what is terrorism”. That definition has not been forthcoming from any side really. [End English]
Question (unidentified journalist): When newspapers don’t have information, then there is a desire for kite flying. And despite listening to all that you said with great attention, one question lingers. People keep asking. Yesterday, Chaudhry Shuja’at Hussain has said that there is no money involved in this in this activity by Dr. Qadeer Khan. And today we have all seen that he was a great patriot and did a lot of work – that is why he was pardoned. So how do we answer … he knew the most in Pakistan as to how sensitive this matter was, so why indeed did he do what he did. People will ask us and we will have to answer them.
Mush: Correct. That is correct. I have also heard what he (Shujaat Hussain) has said. But I want to tell you that many of these things were not known to anybody. This investigation .. this was such a sensitive matter.. that this investigation was being conducted in a very covert manner, people were being questioned and we were collecting data, collecting proof. Things were known to very few people … nobody knew. And Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know it at all. He had no idea what the details were. Someone suddenly asked him and he did not know the facts. Now he has been told the facts. After that (his statement) the facts have been communicated. And I think now… let’s see if he gives any interviews…now he should know what the reality is. Because there is nothing hidden in reality. I told them to show everything to him, so that he gets to know. I say that see, A.Q.Khan Sahib is my hero too. And I think he is a hero for all of us. He is my hero. I keep dealing with him and I had raised him to the heavens. When this was first shown to me, even I was surprised, shocked …that it is impossible. Initially, the brain did not agree… that a hero… how is this possible. But when the proof comes in front of you…documentary and totally clear cut, in written stuff then a man has to accept it. So Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know when he gave the statement.
Question (Ikramullah – The Nation and Nawa-e-Waqt): Mr. President, you have just said that many people were not aware of the facts of this matter. And even such a big leader (Shujaat) was not aware. And when you said about many newspapers that they were indulging in irresponsible behavior, so when this matter started and when the IAEA brought the Iran report to our notice, wasn’t it the duty of the Govt. and our media managers that senior representatives of newspapers should have also been called and told that these investigations are going to take place. The requirements of national security are such and such. We are investigating. Please exercise discretion regarding this matter.
Mushy: I wish it were like this that it was so easy .. that I called you and gave you a bit of a briefing and you would have understood and wrote with full sincerity. But unfortunately, that is not the case. You write from several angles, isn’t it (very condescending tone here). Drop those angles. You are told, and many times, I personally tell you … the Foreign Minister tells you…(to the Minister) when did you hold the Press Conference?
Foreign Minister Kasuri [Start English] I briefed the national media both in Lahore and Islamabad many months ago - the top editors and columnists. I gave them a background briefing and most of them are present here.[End English]
Mush: so this has happened. Even when I come on televisions, for 5-10 mins, I say many times. But they don’t listen…they don’t come under control. The second thing is that – ok forget that. My crib is not that. You tell me, don’t you understand what national interest is? That if you newspaper prints that military generals are involved, the army is involved and the Government is involved. Don’t you know that this can be very damaging? So I have a question for you that even if this were accurate, why are you writing it? Isn’t this your country also? Do you want to damage it? Stop writing such stuff. Even if it is truthful, don’t write it. This is my demand from you. Because this is a question of Pakistan.
<1 hour and 18.50 minutes>
Question: Sir, my name is Tahir Khalil connected with Daily Jung. I want to bring to your attention an interview by Gen Beg recently, a tv interview, he said that during Benazir’s duration Uranium enrichment was reduced to 5%. I want to seek your comment on it.
Yes, Its an unfortunate thing. I said that, these military philosophers, I would call them pseudo-intellectuals, they want to come in the limelight. You know the names, there are 2-3 people (almost a giggle). Now…, I have also absolutely heard it (the interview). Now…, I will ask you to challenge them. The first thing is, if you reduced the enrichment from 95% to 5% and if you asked (permission) Benazir, he said, Benazir and he had decided, the two decided this together. 4 four things they said. 1,2,3, 4 and 4th was this one. Actually roll back, this is rollback. What else is rollback? If you haven’t reached minimum deterrence level and you end enrichement, you have stopped your nuclear development. This is called rollback. I would like to ask him and Benazir Sahiba both, in my opinion the whole nation should ask them, why did you rollback at that time? Under what pressure?
Now look at this. Secondly, he has given another statement. That he referred to NCA. Don’t know, they must have seen NCA in dreams. There was nothing at that time. These things… Another thing I noted, when he (looks at his notes) … I think, he was saying, deployment…, at that time when there was confrontation between India and Pakistan. He himself was saying that I was not concerned with the development. Then he said, I took permission from Benazir about taking action-vaction against Hindoostan.
Two strategies are involement, two controls are involement. This NCA - development control and employment control. I don’t think they have any understanding of these two. One is development and the other is employment. Development, I have said it, is connected to that chain and certainly army chief is related. Employment is government decision. When it needs to be used and what needs to be used. Use of strength … so obviously, government has to come into play. So development’s answer cannot be from employment. He must have talked to Benazir about employment but development, certainly, was being decided by President and Army chief and science organization.
Question: Mr President, Why you could not provide the face saving to AQ Khan if you yourself have described him as national hero? Why he was brought on TV? This is the.. I.. it’s a bit emotional but I think many people will ask you this question. Thank you.
No, I pers..(garbled) I thought I provided with face saving. Meaning, meaning, from my side whatever I have done I have tried to shield him actually. I have not tried to... but there was a minimum. One has to balance between international requirements and shielding. I have told you, that you cannot shield a hero and damage the nation. That cannot be done. So the balance is required. In protecting the nation first of all and also shielding your hero. And I thought this fine line, the way we did it was the best way of doing it. This is our judgment. This was the judgment of the whole NCA and the cabinet. And this is what we thought was the best. And still I think that is the best way that one could do.
Question: You have said that minimum nucklear (sic) deterrence is one of the objectives of your administration. And whatever has happened in the recent past, this is not going to affect your program in that direction. But the important question is that we also have a peaceful nucklear development program which is also important to the country including the installation of atomic nucklear plants. What are your pro… what is your program in that particular field that is important for the country’s economy?
Now, when you are talking about deterrence theory you are talking about military use of nuclear power and in that we have to maintain our strategy to maintain a minimum deterrence level. And we have quantified this minimum deterrence level and we are fulfilling that. And I have very clearly said that mashallah, allamdullah we have crossed the minimum deterrence level. That side is well taken for. The other is peaceful use. In that you already know… Pervaiz Butt sahib you want to say something? Pervaiz Butt sahib, you say it.
----------------
1:25 till end.
-------------------
Pervez Butt: We are making a lot of progress under your guidance, in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. We are making advances in finding minerals, Uranium. Processing it to make fuel. Two reactors, one is 30 years old, now back in operation. And the second one is operating very well. And we are about to sign the contract for the 3rd one. In the field of medical we have 13 nuclear medical centers. Five (?) more are under consideration and they will be established in the next few years. And our research & development in peaceful uses is going ahead at a fast pace. And in agriculture sir, crops that we have introduced, as a result of nuclear radiation mutations, new crops, diverse and additional income, give the farmers an additional income of more than a hundred million dollaras a year. So, we are making a lot progress in all the peaceful uses of
nuclear energy.
[English end]
[Urdu begin]
Someone: Our leader, you have given us consolation, it is a good news, that you have debriefed General Beg and General Karamat too. Then as a result of this debriefing, in your opinion, is it (true) that these two army chiefs were completely unaware of the activities of Mr. A.Q. Khan? Number two, Mr. Ishaq Dar, who is minister of treasury(?), he has said that Mr. Beg had come to Mian Nawaz Sharif, and he had said that if you give nuclear technology to Iran, then are willing to pay 12 billion dollars. And the linkages that Mr. Beg has with Iran, details of that have been coming through the years. Then what is the true position in your opinion?
Musharraf: Correct. See, the thing is, the first thing is that I have told you the organizational structure, i.e. the president, army chief and the scientists. This was the channel. And they were definitely in the channel. And all the developments have happened according to their will, according to their permission, and with their involvement. No chief of the army staff can deny this fact. Since they were in the chain. Only they used to interact with all the scientists, be it Mr. Samar or be it Mr. A.Q, or be it Dr. Ashfaq. Mr. Samar was in NDC, Mr. A.Q. was in KRL, in PAC Mr. Ashfaq. So, totally, all these army chiefs were involved, in the development and in the programming. They knew what was going on. Now the question arises whether they were involved in proliferation or not. Now you have…frankly, definitely, we have asked them many questions, I have asked these questions. Now these are statements. Now, you can’t accept these. One person says this, another says, no I didn’t , I have in some other context. And if they talk like this, then I am afraid that that is not evidence really. Therefore, whatever we have investigated, the investigation that we have done with evidence, those who are physically involved, and those who are involved in the money, and those who are involved in the transfer of the designs, those who are being named in that, the names we have got from outside through our investigation, in that they were named nowhere. That is what I will say.
Someone: You mentioned that, there will be no compromise on our vital national interests. One being the nuclear program, no rollback, the other is Kashmir, upon which you have said that there won’t be any compromise. You also mentioned that an honorable solution to the Kashmir issue will be reached. In your view, what can be an honorable solution to the Kashmir problem? And next the dialog process that is going to begin this month, which points it will go through to reach the core issue of Kashmir, so that talks could start on that.
Musharraf: Look, I don’t talk about solution…. I have many solutions in my heart and mind. They are not my own, I have read about them, people have talked about them. But I tell you that the time for those solutions hasn’t arrived yet. The time to discuss those solutions hasn’t arrived yet. I, I have said thousand times, lets start talking first, and in step two accept that Kashmir is a dispute that we need to solve. Both these steps have happened, alhamdullah, these two steps have been taken. These two steps had never been taken before. Now these two steps have happened. Now third and forth step that I have been talking about is lets eliminate what is unacceptable to the Kashmiris, Pakistanis and India. And from the remaining, lets move towards a solution that is acceptable to India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris. Now I don’t wish to discuss this. Because this discussion is premature. Now we can’t discuss, because we will keep fighting amongst ourselves. If we start fighting at this then we can’t move forward. So lets leave this. Now, from 16th to 18th Februray their foreign secretary will come here. These discussions will start. We have to decide in this which committees are there, which issues are there. Certainly, one committee should be the Kashmir committee. And when that is formed, then it should move forward. And frankly, this.., even in my mind there are blank areas, there are gray areas, that how are we going to move forward now. When we will start moving towards this, and when the discussions will start, that what is the solution for this. I will tell you people, you discuss if you wish, what is the solution. It will be information for me if you want to suggest any solutions. But these are to be done later. When the official level talks will start then the talk of solution will come, and then we will consider these. Now I can’t say anything.
Hamid Mir: I only want to ask this that, the statement of Dr. Qadeer that we heard on the TV, he said “whatever I did, I did in good faith, but I made an error of judgement”. I would like know that in whatever investigation has been done, what he talked about “good faith”, he must have given a definition of “good faith”, what is this “good faith”? Have you come to understand the meaning of this “good faith”.
Musharraf: There is an FIR against him. There is a written appeal, mercy appeal, from his side. And there is a written pardon from my side. I don’t want to talk about them. And this topic of shielding, I don’t want to talk about it. Because as I said, I want to protect his honor. Not completely, it hasn’t been… whatever has happened had to happen. And more than that I don’t want to… “in good faith”..I don’t want to define really. I don’t. I don’t know what is good faith.
Someone: Mr. President if you can just tell us that, was Dr. A.Q. Khan involved in this proliferation till the time of his retirement from KRL in 2001? And secondly when you say that the government and the army was not involved, so what could have been the motivation for Dr. Khan and ten other people from KRL to transfer information to not just Iran and Libya but also to North Korea.
Musharraf: (giggles) I mean, why are you asking me, you know it yourself what is the motivation of people to do these things. Money, obviously, that is the reality. Unfortunately money, this lust for money, may Allah give to no one. Because there is no limit to it. Don’t they know that a person has to finally go to his grave? But I don’t know why there is so much lust, money will be left behind in the bank.
Jang Columnist: I have a sincere request that in the national interest, and in the interest of national security, couldn’t you have kept this whole affair secret? Since the way our enemies have been writing, the way their TV has been commenting, that is paining us. After all this you pardoned him, this could have been done secretly too in the national interest. This is my question to you.
Musharraf: I am surprised that you would give us permission to keep things secret! I mean, how can you say such a thing? If you open your newspaper, there is a heavy bombardment…, whole newspaper is filled with this, then when do you allow anything to be secret? I am still keeping things secret, what do you know about the investigations? Which… who really knows what he (A.Q. Khan) has really done. You don’t know at all. Nobody knows. So, this investigation is still secret. We haven’t told, where, how, what has he done. This we haven’t even told so far. But we have told that he is definitely involved. Now you should take my word for it, you have to trust us that this is the reality.
Someone: Would experiences of Dr. A.Q. Khan.. (not clear part)?
Musharraf: We have so much, alhamdullah, talent. These scientists are sitting here. You could talk to them. We, alhamdullah, have no problem regarding anything. There are 6000 scietists here. As I have told, 2000 km range Shaheen-II is ready. Mr. Samar, tell them about this, so that inshallah they will know. So we have everything. Thank you very much.
Mushy's Urdu Press conference transcripts translated into english. Total duration 1:35:49
In the name of Allah the merciful. Ladies & Gentlemen, it is indeed my pleasure in addressing you and answering you, whatever question you have. But since this is a mixed gathering , or although it is a mixed gathering, I am compelled to speak in my mother tongue, Urdu, because what I am going to talk is more for the domestic audience. But wherever important I will indicate and also turn into English.
[Urdu begin]
This is a very historic conference, this conference, many things have happened, many historic things have happened and I haven’t met you in a while. Therefore I thought that this is an opportunity where I come in front of you and talk with you freely.
Gentlemen, Pakistan at this time, in my opinion is standing at a fork in the road. I have said this many times but I would like to repeat, because I am not merely talking empty, this is correct, this is indeed.
On one side, this fork is such that on one side we can make progress, prosperity, development and towards happiness we can go, if we adopt the correct path and keep going. Because we are at that stage to be able to go along that path. On the other side if we leave the correct path, keep going backwards, especially a defeatist mentality, a tendency of negativism and cyinicism if we adopt, if we keep crying over ourselves, and leaving the correct path, a downward path is also clear for us which I think our coming generations will never forgive. Because in my view there is an opportunity, this opportunity was never there before, and we are wasting this opportunity.
In this state of affairs, at this fork in the road our country is standing. Upon us, internationally there have been four accusations. This also I have told many times. But I will like to repeat twice. First, that whatever is happening in Afghanistan is happening from Pakistan. Whatever is happening in IHK, Indian held Kashmir, that also is happening from Pakistan. Whatever nuclear proliferation has happened, that also has happened from Pakistan. And internally Pakistan is a terrorist, extremist and fundamental society. These four negative perceptions are common in the world. I am telling this with full confidence, I have just returned from abroad, and approximately met all the media leaders of the world, in Davos. All of them ask me this same question. Definitely I keep on giving clarifications. Definitely I keep trying to protect Pakistan.
[Urdu end]
[English begin]
Today I am not going to talk on these four issues. Today I will talk only on nuclear proliferation. I am talking only on nuclear proli… (fumbles for correct pronunciation), proliferation. I am not talking of anything else. But I would accept question on Kashmir also. Because this is the Kashmir day, 5th of February, and I have just come back from Muzaffarabad, aftyer addressing Azad J&K assembly and council, and I have spoken my mind there. Whoever has heard it, or whatever points you have, I would be too glad to answer questions on nuclear proliferation, nuclear aspect and Kashmir. But I am talking only of nuclear proliferation. [English end]
[Urdu begin]
Nowadays in all international media, talk is of nuclear proliferation, all the time CNN, BBC, any, anywhere in the world, these same talks are taking place. And Pakistan and Pakistan’s scientists are at the centerstage. It is also being said that Pakistan is a main source, hub, of nuclear proliferation activity. It is regrettable that one can see in many of our local media, that even they are pushing this forward that, government is also involved, military are also involved, scientists too, and also that scientists are not but govt and army are. They perhaps don’t realize that what could be the consequence of these things. Do they do this knowingly, or taking instructions from outside, or else they have no sense. In any case I would like to tell you for your understanding what could happen.
If the government is involved, first thing, UN security council could apply sanctions on us. And in this vein, if you look at N. Korea, and remember Iran and Libya. Look at this also who used to talk big, and now who have genuflected, who are lying supine, remember this too. Pardons are being asked, who is asking for pardons, we or others? Second thing is this, that people say that we are irresponsible government, so sign CTBT, NPT and rollback. Third thing, there are a few rouge states, we could join them too. The government doesn’t know how to do anything, so lets declare them rogues. And fourth thing, it can happen, that our vital national interests come under physical danger.
This I have told you upfront, these dangers are. We, our community, if its wants to get into this, then lets go, let me join you too. Lets move forward, (lets see) which way we will come out.
Where critical national interests are facing dire consequences, as they are now, there emotional, parochial, political (considerations) should be given up. We should work with seriousness. After thinking, decisions should be made and actions taken. First of all (above all), actions for Pakistan should be taken. In the minds t one thing we should have, Pakistan. What we need to save, what we need to take forward. This is not the time for emotionalism, neither for politics.
I am seeing all the programs on TV, articles are coming in the press, discussions are happening. I have to say with great regret that misunderstandings are being created. Doubts are being created. Without any reason. Sometimes without realizing the consequences, but sometimes after fully understanding the consequences. Purposefully. I want to illustrate some of the headings now. From the world’s press and our press is using them. Our press. I shall read these headings now.
[Begin English]“Musharraf named in nuclear probe” This is news to me. This is the first time I have heard (about) it. I don’t know who is probing my involvement.
“Pakistan behaves like a rogue state”
“Pakistan caught in a web of evidence”
“The nuclear noose around Pakistan’s neck”
[End English]
“Pakistan’s atomic programme has been surrendered”
Do we need any enemies (when our own press is behaving like one). This is our Pakistan (undecipherable). So that the whole nation weeps. Keep weeping all day from now onwards. That this is what is happening to us. That we are in such troubles. Keep weeping about our condition. When actually, none of this is true. Absolutely none of this. That is my promise to you. None of this. Not one of these things is true. I call this a [Start English] defeatist tendency, pessimist, cynical [End English] they are weeping. And they want to make the whole nation weep. They don’t want to see the nation happy. They want to make the nation weep.
[Start English] Nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout [End English] they are saying these kind of things. Who is doing these? Nor is anybody telling me to do these (i.e. nuclear rollback, Kashmir sellout). Neither is anybody asking me to sell out on Kashmir nor to roll back the nuclear (programme). Who is doing these things? Maybe instructions are coming out from outside? And then some military [Start English] philosophers, senior philosophers [End English] are at the task. Who I call [Start English] pseudo intellectuals [End English]. The problem that all of them have is that they want to come into the limelight. They are not in the limelight (currently). Want to come into the limelight. “Ask us so that we can appear on TV, come out in front of everybody. So that people see our faces” They appear (on TV), talk about things and all that they say is false. I shall even expose in some time, what these falsehoods are.
I want to clarify about all these problems. And I shall do so honestly. Ask me questions afterwards. I shall explain to you about everything. The first concern of Pakistan, of all of us, of me is ‘rollback’. [Start English – start a tone of bravado]Ladies and Gentlemen, this country will never rollback its nuclear assets, its missile assets. I will be the last man doing this. I’ll leave this place before I do it. Never, it can never be done.[End English, End bravado]
Some people, some politicians keep saying – ‘rollback has happened, rollback has been done’ I repeat once again that there are no compromises on ‘national vital interests’. We have two national vital interests – [Start English] Our nuclear programme, being a nuclear state and the Kashmir cause. These are national vital interests. No leader can go back on these two. [End English] On these, there are no compromises. An ‘honourable solution’ is needed on Kashmir. And rollback will never happen. I am a soldier. I have taken a pledge for the defence of this country. And have fought wars in the defence of this country. Skirmishes in addition to (all out) wars. I have seen death from up close – not once but six times. I am not amongst those who get scared. We shall put our lives on the line for these strategic assets. I am not amongst those who will rollback. And not amongst those who betrays the country for no reason at all. If I were amongst those who gets scared, gets worried, I would have left all this and run away by now.
Now I want to tell you about what the development has been of our nuclear power, our missile power (forces?) in the last 4 years. I want to say with pride that what has been done (achieved) in these last 4-5 years, has perhaps never happened in the past. Firstly, our requirements were concretized from a military point of view. That is we decided our deterrence level. Quantified it. And alhamdullillah (thanks be to Allah) the nuclear and missile power has crossed that deterrence level. And development continues. It has not stopped. We have made the Shaheen II. Of 2000kms (range). It will be tested within one month. These people are sitting (points to them) – Samar Sahib (Samar Mubarakmand), Mirza Sahab and Bhat Sahib there. You can ask them afterwards (about this) as to how much development has happened, what is happening and what will happen in the future. And these things will continue to happen on the ground. I can’t tell you anything more than this. And you will keep seeing them happening.
Apart from this, some institutional arrangements have been made. (rather institutionalization has taken place). That were not there before. The National Command Authority, about which you are hearing – this was created by us. Under this is a Strategic Planning Division, whose incharge is Gen. Qidwai Sahib (there he is). There is an entire Secretariat, which is under the Joint Staff HQ. This is an institutional method. And under them are three Forces Commands – Army, Navy and Air Force. Strategic Force Command is under them. That is, there is an entire organization, things are under custodial control, there is an organization and all our assets are under total control (holds up both fists). That was never the case earlier. Not before us (i.e. before we seized power).
One of those military philosophers I was talking about earlier, was saying that “we had got something decided by the National Command Authority”. I don’t know which National Command Authority they are talking about. There was no NCA in 1990. That has been made only now.
Apart from this, we have developed the infrastructure – all of it. Maybe we shall tell you about this some other time.
Why am I telling you all these things? I am telling you all these things because I have full confidence that we are a recognized nuclear and missile state. Nobody is telling us to fold it up, end it. I am prepared to tell this to the world. I have told you these things and the world is listening. There is no ‘pressure’ on me. And if we act like a responsible state, then there is no danger of any kind. Because we are an accepted nuclear state. But if we act irresponsibly, and like we are trying to prove that our Government is involved…. both the military and the Government… both are involved…we ourselves are saying this to you (the world)…. so that you may come and fold all this up, come and do it (all this is mocking the press).. we are saying this ourselves. Read the columns, listen to what people are saying.
Thus, if there is any danger, it is from these ignorant politicians, unprincipled scientists, ignorant commentators and columnists, they are the danger. They will prove that our country is not capable of these things (nuclear weapons, missiles etc). Close their shop (typical Hindi/Urdu way of saying ‘fold everything up’). We don’t even need outsides, these insiders are prepared to do these things. I don’t understand this, how these politicians – I don’t want to take names – I was going to take names but I was stopped from doing so – are saying that there is US pressure for rollback. I don’t know if they see this in their dreams. See these dreams in the night, get up in the morning, parroting these things – “rollback is taking place”.
There are all these young people, who come to me. They tell me that they are with me. I keep thinking that I must harness these people. And launch them to tell these others who are not understanding these things. There is no rollback taking place. Nobody is telling me (to rollback). Stop saying these things. And if you don’t want to stop, then keep saying it. Keep causing damage.
The other allegation is that this investigation underway on nuclear proliferation – all the scientists are being apprehended, being interrogated, as if there is a complete upheaval in our nuclear establishment, the scientific establishment. I want to tell you a fact – we have approximately 6500 scientists working. And approx. 45000 people are working in the organization. Ask these scientists afterwards (about these numbers). Out of these, 11 are detained. Seven scientists and engineers, three militarymen and one technician. Out of 50000 people, if 10-11 people are involved, it is nothing. All institutions are functioning ‘first class’. With peace and tranquility. Activity is underway. All the development that was taking place is continuing, absolutely in a normal, ‘first class’ manner.
Another misconception – that apart from scientists, military officers and Government officials are involved. How can it happen (that they are not involved), how can it happen? Internationally, it is being said anyway. Even we are saying – “how can it be that they are not involved?”. How can it be that they had no idea about all this. Now I shall tell you how this entire development happened and who all knew about it. I shall tell you the history of this. So that all doubts of yours are ended.
This can be divided into two periods. Pre 98, post 98, covert and overt. There was a covert period during which we had to hide everything, we had to hide it from the world and move forward. What is a better way to hide something from the world, to move forward? Courage was needed, passion was needed, and intelligence was needed. Now what happened in this period? India did its own nuclear test in 74. And tilted the equilibrium of deterrence. There was equilibrium in conventional, they brought a non-conventional disequilibrium. We had to fix that.
So, in 1976, Dr. A.Q. Khan came to Pakistan. His work started in June 1976. I give its full credit to Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto sahib that he initiated this program. To maintain our deterrence level he started a program. But in 1977 July it ended! He got separated (removed by Zia?). In this one year, other than finding a location, selecting a location, and starting the construction activity, nothing else happened. You can judge yourself in one year, here (incomprehensible part) also keep getting made. So this job was done. And during this period who was there? Mr. Bhutto was there and Mr. A.Q. Khan was there. And no one else knew. This is a good thing, a correct thing, this I am not saying that this is wrong. It was a correct method(?).
Then the period of Mr. Zia started. After 1977, and who was dealing with it then, now I accelerate a bit, who was dealing with it? Zia, president Zia, and A.Q. Khan. He was the president, he was the army chief. Two men. For assistance, for financial control, Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan perhaps used to get involved, for the finances. And one staff officer was there, Gen Zamin I think, Major General Zamin, Zamin Naqvi, he was involved. That’s all. But directly actually president and Mr. A.Q. Khan… scientists.
After that, post Zia period came, during which Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan became president. Then Benazir, then Nawaz Sharif, then again Benazir, again Nawaz Sharif, in this Mr. Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Mr. Leghari and Mr. Tarar (were presidents). And during this time everything, president, army chief and scientists, period. Neither government was involved nor the army was involved. Only during General Waheed’s(sp?) time, there is a (post of) director general combat development of army in GHQ, Major General (Waheed) was (that) during that time. He was included as a staff officer, since the organization had grown, to deal with it collectively, a Major Genral was brought in. So that he keeps on dealing with the chief. Army was not involved. I myself was sitting in GHQ as the Director General Military operations, I was not involved, I did not know what was going on. Directly, president, army chief, director general combat development, scientific organization. No government, no army, no navy or air force.
This was the pre covert period that I have talked about. During that period this was happening. This was an excellent way to maintain secrecy, and to carry the program forward. I congratulate all the presidents, all the army chiefs, that they kept this secret. They showed determination, they demonstrated resolve, and due to Allah’s mercy they kept taking this program forward. They didn’t come under any pressure. Since it was a secretive program. I congratulate all of them.
Now, post 98, we became a nuclear state, accepted, declared. We didn’t have any need to hide anymore. That is why I formed the national command authority, strategic plan division, army- navy-air force strategic force command was formed. Now, government’s hand is there, army’s hand is there. If something comes out now, then I am responsible. As much government is responsible, so much I am responsible. If anything happens now.
Therefore we should have it clear that the correct method during the covert period, pre 98, this sequence has gone on…covert, this..moved in a clandestine way. During which total financial autonomy, administrative autonomy, security autonomy, was held by the organization. Then, to say this that, how did it happen..? Security was under the organization itself. No one else was checking. Money, total financial, there was no external audit. Local audit, own, internal audit. And I tell you this was the correct way. Because otherwise perhaps we wouldn’t have advanced.
Therefore, I have given this so much time to it due to this reason, gentlemen, that I could prove to you, that it is absolutely true that neither the government is involved nor the govt officials are involved nor the army is involved. And given the maximum autonomy, clandestine covert operation, financial autonomy, administrative autonomy and security autonomy, everything that has happened could have happened. And this is surely what has happened. Now it can’t happen.
One more wild accusation, they say, what is this investigation, how has it been done, it hasn’t been brought up in the assembly, no one was told, it wasn’t debated upon, it hasn’t come out on TV, there haven’t been any charges that have been leveled. This is useless type of talk. Whenever there is any accusation, and that too of such a sensitive matter, then do we go and announce it on the radio? Obviously there is secrecy. Why should we tell, we are not going to tell. Since we don’t know what the facts are. So, unless I get those facts, why should I tell anyone else? Since there are such big names involved. And in any case the case hasn’t even started. Then what charges? There are no charges. The case hasn’t even started. A preliminary investigation is going on. Do we not understand this? And when the preliminary investigation was completed then FIR was lodged, now there is an FIR. And now when I made the decision, that is now, now ask me what it is. Now I will tell you. I will freely tell you.
Now I would like to give a brief background of this case. This mid 2003, IAEA inspectors had gone to Iran. Under pressure Iran allowed them, obviously. And they saw centrifuges there. They were shown those centrifuges. And they saw this that those centrifuges were Pakistani (dramatic voice), of Pakistani design. And this is correct. They had a contamination in them too, you might have read in the newspapers. It is possible those went from here itself.
After that there was pressure, full. Those whose (great) examples people used to mention here, they genuflected! We were named. Scientists were named. After that even Libya followed. Genuflecting. They stuffed boxes full of data and gave away. “Here are sir, Pakistan’s”.
In this situation, when these developments were taking place, we moved very fast. We immediately started our investigation, obviously secret, and we found that no government involvement is there. Some individuals are involved. Yes, they are involved. Completely involved. Initial enquiry has been done. Debriefing they said, I said again and again, who has come up with this term “debriefing”, lets cut this, lets call his an investigation, I don’t know from where this has come. Anyway, someone used it once, and it kept on going, now only “debriefing” is happening. In any case call it debriefing, or call it an investigation, call it an enquiry, whatever, I don’t care for the terminology. Eleven people are involved amongst whom is Dr. A.Q. Khan. Against him this whole investigation has been done. And let me tell you this also for your pleasure, that Mirza Aslam Beg and Jehangir Karamat were also debriefed.
These all investigations we ourselves have done, Pakistanis have done it. Not a single person came from outside. No coercion has been used. Unnecessary talks, this is this, this is that. All of them are sitting totally alright, healthy. There is nothing like that. Since all the evidence is documentary who can deny it? We can put it in front of their faces and say look! All, there is nothing like that (coercion), all the investigations have been completed.
Findings… unfortunate,.. all proliferation, … unfortunately,… under the supervision or orders of Dr. A.Q.
No government official, no military man, is not involved. This I tell you with full faith(?). This started in eighties, proliferation, and A.Q. Khan retired in 2001, and it ended around that time. Another thing that came out, is that a whole underworld is involved. And it makes sense, we have also made our demonstrable force, that too we haven’t been buying things openly. Obviously there is an underworld, and Pakistan should not be blamed for this. And if we look, all the atomic powers of the world in the beginning have been made with the help of the underworld. We have made it with the help of underworld, so has India. No one can pinpoint Pakistan. Underworld is there, which is there also in European countries, Asian countries, and there is a whole web, in details of which I don’t wish to go. But where there is a root in Pakistan, the fabrication is taking place in European and other countries, and Dubai is the transportation center. So this is an underworld that is functioning. It is functioning from here. Those European countries are involved, their people are involved, and Pakistanis are also involved. These are the findings.
I want to deduce this, that whoever takes this in a very light mood, that what if proliferation has happened, it has happened amongst the muslim brothers. Then one is not a really muslim brother (North Korea). And the other (proliferation) that has happened amongst the muslim brothers, lets look at the consequence of giving it to them. They didn’t ask us when they named us! So I want to say this that above all there is Pakistan. Forget all others. Don’t have erroneous ideas. If we have to be saved, if we have to bring power, and if we have to stay, stay here, then we should learn a lesson.
Now some say that we are undermining the heroes. I would like to answer this. That I have heroes too, (A.Q. Khan) is my hero too, has always been, he is even now. He is, because he has made Pakistan a great power. This Dr. A.Q. Khan has made. No one can negate this, no one can cancel this, no one can prove this wrong. This is the reality. Prestige and (incomprehensible) only this hero has given us.
But when I sit down to philosophize this issue, when we have such kinds of heroes, he is Dr. A.Q., we make them larger than life. We seat them on our heads (a phrase in Urdu meaning giving great respect). We praise them to sky. A larger than life, higher than human level. But they remain human beings. Then one feels sorry, feels sad, feels angry, feels pained, that this larger than life figure has made mistakes. Since even he is a human being like us. This is the reality. [Urdu end]
[English begin]The only question then arises “Is Pakistan important or is the hero important” (dramatic voice). Pakistan is important. My job here, number one, protect my nation. And number two, protect the honor and dignity of our hero. But I will never reverse this order. [English end]
[Urdu begin] This can’t happen that in trying to save the hero I destroy the country. I won’t do that. Whatever dangers come upon me, this can’t happen.
Even if there is some danger on myself - this will not happen. So this is the reality. This is the dilemma. This is how I spent my Eid - in this dilemma, this reality. Lets leave these matters alone for a while . What happened was that Dr AQ Sahab confessed his guilt what you watched on tv. And then people started talking about this - that somebody forced him to, to save the nation but in reality nothing like that happened. I have told you everything. What I have said is the truth. There is not a single bit of falsity in his confession. He has erred. But he is our hero. There is no pressure on us. Nobody is telling me to punish him, release him, or do this or that. NcA convenes, we sit together, we talk about it, we talk for 4 hours and then we take a decision and we work accordingly. We work to the best of our intelligence and abilities. Nobody tells us. Nobody calls us over telephone, not even once. We will do as we feel like what we decide. NCA has considered, cabinet meeting has been convened and have recommended pardon and as a president I have decided to pardon Dr AQ as he is our national hero but he has commited some errors which is unfortunate but still I have decided to pardon him. I have said something that is very lengthy.
In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, we follow a very open media policy and we have given maximum liberty to opposition. They talk anything. But you must understand. Pakistan comes first. It is unfortunate that we bring politics into everything (zatiyat main siyasat ??) and even in sensitive issues (like nuclear) in which we discussed already what can happen, we do the same things over there too. Then when I say national interest people write it in inverted commas and say what is this guy talking about "national interest", "national interest". If we dont understand this much that what is national interest - that my friend if you prove that this proliferation has been done by govt and military then what will happen is that we will become a rogue state and get sanctions applied. If we dont understand this then what else do we understand. One thing I would like to point out is that this is wrong. At least dont talk rubbish. In fact I would go that extent that even if this is true, you should not do this. Even then you should understand national interest. What I am trying to tell you, that Iran and Libya gave away all papers. What is happening there ? What is the media doing there ? Everything has been rolled back. Everything is finished. Tell me what is their media doing. Are they shouting ? Is the population crying ? They understand national interest.... That maybe this was in national interest and they are sitting quietly. And here even though things are alrite people are trying to falsify it and drown(harm) national interest. That is all that I have to say.
I will take questions.
Some announcer : Ladies and gentlemen may I request you to identify yourself. Please wait to be recognised.
Some bearded guy (kinda old) around 50:12 : I am saying one thing, Musharraf Saheb. In the past 4 years you have pulled the nation out of many a calamity and have taken us towards the road to progress and recently by promoting-jamhooriyat(dunno what this means) you have done such an immense favour to the quam that the quam is never going to forget. I have one question, Sir. That Dr Abdul Qadder has confessed to you and the nation and you have forgiven him but do you think this matter will come to end here ??
Musharraf : You leave that to me. At this time we have decided. NCA has decided. Cabinet has decided. That this is the decision. Now, Insha-allah, I stand between Dr AQ Sahib and International-Whatever-that comes. Inshaallah nothing will happen.
Simon Somebody from Reuters.. around 51:59 : You told us that no military officials were involved. But many people remain to be convinced about this fact. And there are 3 things that Pakistan might be asked to do to convince people that this is indeed the case. One of those would be to hand over all of the documents to the IAEA and give them all of the evidence. The second which is being asked by some pakistani politician (Mush seen writing some notes down) is a full independent investigation into this which looks into the military's role. And the third thing which is being asked for in an editorial in washington post is for pakistan to submit to UN supervision of its weapons program. I would ask you if any of those, how you would respond to any of those three suggestions to convince those of that the military is indeed not involved.
Musharraf : Negative to all the three of them. We dont do that. (looks pretty p1ssed). We are an independent nation. Nobody comes in and checks our things. We check them ourselves. There are europeans involved. Have you gone and asked them ? That the same thing should be done there also. That they should submit their documents. That the govt should come forward and get the united nations there. Have you asked them this ? This is a soverign country (pumping fists) . Nobody, no document will be given. No independent investigations will take place here and we will not have the united nations coming in here but if anyone in the IAEA wants to come here and ask us and come and discuss what else have we found and investigate it by all means we are open and we will tell them everything. And let me also say you should see what the US is saying, what other countries are saying , leave the media aside and see their official comments. So certainly all these countries have found out, they have investigated , they have investigated the underworld. Everyone is at the moment investigating the underworld and we know the reality and they know the reality. They know that the govt is not involved. They know that the military is not involved. And that is enough for us. It is the media who is saying whatever you are saying.
Around 54:27
Another old spectacled guy : The rest of the 10 involved, in this proliferation, that they had done all this on Dr Khan's orders, is their fate decided or is yet to be decided.
Musharraf : First of all, we had to do the toughest job, which we have concluded. We have yet to decide on the others. But I do want to say that I am seeing their relatives - they appear on TV and cry and I also know that many politicians are backing them up and these politicians enfuriate them . Nobody should pressurise us. Ek to choree , doosra sinaajoree. (Roughly -> robbing and then chest-thumping ?). I would like to tell the relatives of these people who might be listening right now. First you should ask you father and your brother that when they were out to sell pakistan and put pakistan in this mess - where were they. Is that their character ? Go and ask your father or brother. And as to what are we going to do with them, we will make a decision on that . It needs some though. Its not such a simple matter. Because we have accepted Dr Sahab's mercy petition . We will have to see what should be done to them. But we will take a realistic stand and whatever govt decides we will have to do. So far we have not decided. But the politicians behind them should really get their act together (baaz aa janaa chahiye).
Around 56:16
Questioner : My name is Salim Bukhari and I am editor of "News" newspaper. Sir, the concern you have told us about regarding pakistan , there cannot be 2 opinions on that (kinda like no question about that) but for common people, those who also feel for pakistan the nation, is that the investigation you are doing - wont those things be used against us as evidence. The people who I have talked to say that today the US is stuck in Afghanistan and so they are taking all of this a little easily but are there any guarantees, if the words are bad please forgive me, have you considered things in that direction or not.
Musharraf (57:09) : No I wont mind at all. Just got a little sentimiental . But you can ask. Look, at this time we are facing 4 kinds of misperceptions, 4 very strong negative perceptions, that whatever is happening in afghanistan is from here, kashmir, internally we are extremists and fundamentalists. If we dont address these perceptions as I have already said then due to any reason , then people are just looking for excuses, excuses to catch us and squeeze us. You will hand over the excuse to them. That is the reason I am saying that if we walk on the right path then nobody is asking us to stop anything.. Nothing is happening. We just have to tell the world that we are a responsible state. We are against terrorism. We dont want Al Qaeda and Taliban here . We are going to go against them . And we are firm against them . We are looking for a resolution on Kashmir in a peaceful manner which is happening right now. Our society is moderate. Its not an extremist and toleratant(freudian slip?) society. If we just do this , Inshallah nobody is going to do anything to us. Otherwise there is the danger, the one you are talking about.
Questioner (Around 58:48) : Mr President Mujahid Brelvi (?). Sir you said that whatever has been going on. Dr Khan on the peopl under his supervision have been doing - this question keeps rising in many people's minds that our (intelligence) institutions have been strong. Even keep and eye on political activities. Even our state is not a banana republic but whatever has been happening - Dr Khan and his 11 accomplices have been doing - Why did these institutions keep their eyes closed . Arent they responsible also ? And if they are then should we investigate them just as you said Mirza Aslam Beg and Jahangir Karamat have been investigated. The other heads of agencies - are we going to question them ?
Musharraf (59:36) : You are absolutely right. There are definitely going to be doubts in people's minds. I completely agree that people are going to doubt but I did give a pretty lengthy explanation about this but I am going to give you another one at a different angle so that you understand. Thing is that there is this organisation, for example KRL, it was Dr Khan's org. There is work going on there. What is the security like ? One retired soldier or brigadier goes there and he gets to be in command over there. He reports to him (Dr Khan). He is indebted to him . He gets paid by him . He is going to get promoted by him. After retirement or service , its there that he is going to get a job. Thats one thing. Second thing. If I am a boss of some place and I am taking something away from there then is a guard going to check me out ? Would anybody even dare to check my car ? Thats the other thing. Third thing is that this knowledge that we are talking about - this is design. It can be done on this piece of paper. Put that in your pocket and go. How much is a centrifuge's design. Just this much (extends his hand, shows how long) piece of paper. He will say take this piece of paper. And how big is a nuke design. I can write it down on a piece of paper. Its in my computer. Its in my mind. How are you going to check that. Its not a plane-load. If something is in my mind and if I go and tell somebody then who is going to check. How is ISI going to know. Its on a piece of paper, computer , in my mind and on top of that the person is in charge. So this is what happened. And nobody was involved with him. Absolutely. This is our finding. And we have told this after investigating everybody. And if somebody was involved then we would have taken them to task.
Question (unknown journalist): You are assuring that there will be no rollback. But there is news coming (about it), and I can see that you are also somewhat concerned as to why such news comes – there has been talk of economic sanctions also. Now regarding Japan – I know that Pakistan is telling them to restore the economic assistance that was suspended in 1998… Japan has been our biggest donor, with assistance of 500MM dollars, now because of the North Korean angle, do you think that this aid, which was to be restored will again be put in jeopardy?
Mushy: Nothing is happening. That is why I am saying that when we ourselves write these 15 article…ourselves…it is said that ‘Aa bail mujhe maar’ (a saying in Hindi/Urdu – literally translated as ‘Hey bull, come and hit me’ ….means ‘inviting problems’) Nobody is telling us anything, but we ourselves tell them – come to such and such place and catch us (red handed). Get this (the nuclear programme) ended. There is nothing. Our relations with Japan are very good, sir. Our relations with all countries are good. At this point, there is not a single country with which our relations are bad, including that country – India – they are improving there. Our relations with Russia are very good and are developing a lot. And the others are there in any case – we have no problems. There is no basis to the talk that economic assistance from Japan is going to end, etc. etc. Because they understand that these are some individuals who have proliferated. That is what I am telling you – it is us who are bent on telling them “No, these are not individuals alone. It is the Government (that is involved)” so that they can come and end it all. That is what I am saying for all this while, do we need any enemy, we are ourselves telling them “Come, end the aid because the Government is involved”. They know that these are individuals. And we are bent on proving to them that these are not individuals. That the Government is involved.
Question (M.A.Niazi, The Nation): Two background clarifications. First – when we became overt after the Chagai tests of 1998, the NCA has been formed in about 2000, so in that intervening period, you were telling us about how the authority was functioning , can you please explain what was the arrangement in this period. Second, sir, in 2001, Dr. A.Q.Khan, along with the retiring Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, were both kicked upstairs.
Mush: Sorry, say again?
Niazi: they were both kicked upstairs. i.e. they were removed from their executive positions and made advisers to the Chief Executive.
Mush: yes
Niazi: so at that time, did the Government have any inkling that there were problems because of which these changes had to be made?
Mush: Yes. I became Army Chief in October 1998. As soon as I came (into that office), the first task that I took up with Nawaz Sharif Sahib, I think in early 1999, I started saying that all these organizations of ours, let us bring this under an effective command structure. And at that time, we launched a study and started developing the parameters for this. In some months, we developed them, I don’t remember exactly when…Qidwai (head of the Strategic Planning Division of the NCA, sitting in the audience), you remember when? (To Qidwai) April 1999? What did we do in April 1999? We had that in …to Nawaz Sharif…(to audience) in April 1999, we presented a structure to Nawaz Sharif Sahib. (To Qidwai) and when did he approve that? …yeah, ok…till I became Chief Executive, ok…I kept telling him several times that this is an organizational method, let us bring it into custodial control, good command and control. There was a presentation in April 1999. He heard it but he did not approve it. Lethargy as usual, thinking that this is an unimportant sort of thing. When I became Chief Executive in 1999, I immediately took this action.. (to Qidwai) when did we finally approve it? (to audience) we approved it in February 2000. And we had all this organization on ground. And from there, I told them to end the SPD (Strategic Planning Division of the GHQ) and told them here to create a Secretariat. And I moved them out. In Chaklala, the SPD…Strategic Planning Division…there is a full Secretariat, elaborate Secretariat under his command…and this comes under the Joint Staff HQ…under the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff…answerable directly to the President and the PM through the NCA. So this is the organization that we have made.
Now, the second question of yours…[Start English]yes, sir.[End English] That is correct. When we made this organization in 2000, the biggest thing was that we centralized its security. We centralized the intelligence..uh.. security of all the scientific organizations. Under the SPD. When we centralized this, all the checks and balances came to us. We moved from decentralization to centralization. We took over financial control. Started a total external audit system. We brought in total checks and balances. When we did this, we started seeing some things. And that is why… it was no easy step that I took at that time. And I immediately took the step and rectified it.
[Start English]Question (Humayun Gauhar – also referred to as Humayun Gobar on the forum): You just said that, quite rightly, that when a Brigadier is in charge of security, nobody under him is going to check him when he leaves the building. You also said in Davos that the scientists, some of them at least, they did it for greed.
Mush: they did it for…?
Gobar: greed.
Mush: for?
Gobar: for money, corruption, bribe, whatever you want to call it. We had been hearing stories, rumors, more than rumors, about the corruption of the scientists including Dr. A.Q.Khan, the houses that they made, the presents that they gave and so on and so forth. At that time, were the security agencies or whoever, the Government themselves – did it not occur to them to at least take a look? That when there is so much smoke, there might be a fire?
Mush: I will, I will agree to that. Yes, he was spending money right, left and center. I mean I know that… [End English] you must have seen that near Sohawa (?) there is a beautiful monument dedicated to Shahabuddin Ghauri.. [Start English]I don’t know how much (was spent on it). So, this was going on. But as I said[End English] , see, …. come I shall not pursue that point. [Start English]There is some… I am not a secretive man but some things even I have to.[End English]. The thing is that [Start English] if you…in the covert stage especially.. in the covert stage… [End English] if you are developing them, [Start English]you want to go forward, and have a nuclear device. You want to become a nuclear state. You want to have your missile power. Because there is a disequilibrium. And you want to set that right. Do you want to… which is your focus? You want to get hold of a man who is doing that? For you? And remove him? So that this programme becomes zero? Or overlook certain things? So I think pre… in the covert period, there was autonomy. He was tasked to do something. And he did it. So therefore, I am afraid, one couldn’t be that intrusive, I would say. For the fear that what you desire may not be accomplished. So I think it was a … those were complexities of the time.
Question (Victoria ???, Sunday Telegraph): Mr. President, if I speak in my mother tongue…in your speech this morning to the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Assembly (PoK Assembly) you mentioned that you had been quoted out of context on the UN resolutions. First I wanted you to tell me what your position is on the UN resolutions as you lead up to the talks with India. And secondly, you again made a distinction in your speech between freedom fighting and terrorism. The United States has said that no distinction can be made between freedom fighting and terrorism. So I would appreciate your comments on that as well.
Mush: The first point, on the UN Security Council Resolutions. I have been.. it has been said that I have said that it is no more there or that I rejected the basis of the UN Security Council resolutions. Now the UN resolution is not a simple piece of paper which I can just throw away like that (points to the paper on his table). The point is .. what the point I was making and that is our stand, that all our.. Pakistan’s stand on Kashmir remains as it was..there is no change as yet. But I had said that we must start the process of dialogue, And that must contain Kashmir. We must start moving forward on Kashmir. Now when And in that also, I had said, and I still maintain, it cannot be unilateral. It has to be by both sides. By India and by Pakistan. We are prepared to be flexible, I said. We ought to move beyond stated positions. At that time, not now. I cannot take a unilateral decision that this is what we will do, whatever India does. No, that is not the case. We start moving forward. And when the time for the resolution of the dispute comes, when we start discussing what is the solution to Kashmir, then we must show flexibility and resolve and boldness to leave stated positions and move forward. Both, not unilaterally. This is our stand. The other, when you talk of freedom. Yes, that may be the US stand. But Pakistan’s stand is very clear. That whatever is happening in Kashmir, we don’t call it terrorism. Certainly, there is a freedom struggle going on. Nobody has been able to define what is terrorism really. And I made it… in my speech…at the United Nations I said, “We need to define what is terrorism”. That definition has not been forthcoming from any side really. [End English]
Question (unidentified journalist): When newspapers don’t have information, then there is a desire for kite flying. And despite listening to all that you said with great attention, one question lingers. People keep asking. Yesterday, Chaudhry Shuja’at Hussain has said that there is no money involved in this in this activity by Dr. Qadeer Khan. And today we have all seen that he was a great patriot and did a lot of work – that is why he was pardoned. So how do we answer … he knew the most in Pakistan as to how sensitive this matter was, so why indeed did he do what he did. People will ask us and we will have to answer them.
Mush: Correct. That is correct. I have also heard what he (Shujaat Hussain) has said. But I want to tell you that many of these things were not known to anybody. This investigation .. this was such a sensitive matter.. that this investigation was being conducted in a very covert manner, people were being questioned and we were collecting data, collecting proof. Things were known to very few people … nobody knew. And Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know it at all. He had no idea what the details were. Someone suddenly asked him and he did not know the facts. Now he has been told the facts. After that (his statement) the facts have been communicated. And I think now… let’s see if he gives any interviews…now he should know what the reality is. Because there is nothing hidden in reality. I told them to show everything to him, so that he gets to know. I say that see, A.Q.Khan Sahib is my hero too. And I think he is a hero for all of us. He is my hero. I keep dealing with him and I had raised him to the heavens. When this was first shown to me, even I was surprised, shocked …that it is impossible. Initially, the brain did not agree… that a hero… how is this possible. But when the proof comes in front of you…documentary and totally clear cut, in written stuff then a man has to accept it. So Chaudhry Shujaat Sahib did not know when he gave the statement.
Question (Ikramullah – The Nation and Nawa-e-Waqt): Mr. President, you have just said that many people were not aware of the facts of this matter. And even such a big leader (Shujaat) was not aware. And when you said about many newspapers that they were indulging in irresponsible behavior, so when this matter started and when the IAEA brought the Iran report to our notice, wasn’t it the duty of the Govt. and our media managers that senior representatives of newspapers should have also been called and told that these investigations are going to take place. The requirements of national security are such and such. We are investigating. Please exercise discretion regarding this matter.
Mushy: I wish it were like this that it was so easy .. that I called you and gave you a bit of a briefing and you would have understood and wrote with full sincerity. But unfortunately, that is not the case. You write from several angles, isn’t it (very condescending tone here). Drop those angles. You are told, and many times, I personally tell you … the Foreign Minister tells you…(to the Minister) when did you hold the Press Conference?
Foreign Minister Kasuri [Start English] I briefed the national media both in Lahore and Islamabad many months ago - the top editors and columnists. I gave them a background briefing and most of them are present here.[End English]
Mush: so this has happened. Even when I come on televisions, for 5-10 mins, I say many times. But they don’t listen…they don’t come under control. The second thing is that – ok forget that. My crib is not that. You tell me, don’t you understand what national interest is? That if you newspaper prints that military generals are involved, the army is involved and the Government is involved. Don’t you know that this can be very damaging? So I have a question for you that even if this were accurate, why are you writing it? Isn’t this your country also? Do you want to damage it? Stop writing such stuff. Even if it is truthful, don’t write it. This is my demand from you. Because this is a question of Pakistan.
<1 hour and 18.50 minutes>
Question: Sir, my name is Tahir Khalil connected with Daily Jung. I want to bring to your attention an interview by Gen Beg recently, a tv interview, he said that during Benazir’s duration Uranium enrichment was reduced to 5%. I want to seek your comment on it.
Yes, Its an unfortunate thing. I said that, these military philosophers, I would call them pseudo-intellectuals, they want to come in the limelight. You know the names, there are 2-3 people (almost a giggle). Now…, I have also absolutely heard it (the interview). Now…, I will ask you to challenge them. The first thing is, if you reduced the enrichment from 95% to 5% and if you asked (permission) Benazir, he said, Benazir and he had decided, the two decided this together. 4 four things they said. 1,2,3, 4 and 4th was this one. Actually roll back, this is rollback. What else is rollback? If you haven’t reached minimum deterrence level and you end enrichement, you have stopped your nuclear development. This is called rollback. I would like to ask him and Benazir Sahiba both, in my opinion the whole nation should ask them, why did you rollback at that time? Under what pressure?
Now look at this. Secondly, he has given another statement. That he referred to NCA. Don’t know, they must have seen NCA in dreams. There was nothing at that time. These things… Another thing I noted, when he (looks at his notes) … I think, he was saying, deployment…, at that time when there was confrontation between India and Pakistan. He himself was saying that I was not concerned with the development. Then he said, I took permission from Benazir about taking action-vaction against Hindoostan.
Two strategies are involement, two controls are involement. This NCA - development control and employment control. I don’t think they have any understanding of these two. One is development and the other is employment. Development, I have said it, is connected to that chain and certainly army chief is related. Employment is government decision. When it needs to be used and what needs to be used. Use of strength … so obviously, government has to come into play. So development’s answer cannot be from employment. He must have talked to Benazir about employment but development, certainly, was being decided by President and Army chief and science organization.
Question: Mr President, Why you could not provide the face saving to AQ Khan if you yourself have described him as national hero? Why he was brought on TV? This is the.. I.. it’s a bit emotional but I think many people will ask you this question. Thank you.
No, I pers..(garbled) I thought I provided with face saving. Meaning, meaning, from my side whatever I have done I have tried to shield him actually. I have not tried to... but there was a minimum. One has to balance between international requirements and shielding. I have told you, that you cannot shield a hero and damage the nation. That cannot be done. So the balance is required. In protecting the nation first of all and also shielding your hero. And I thought this fine line, the way we did it was the best way of doing it. This is our judgment. This was the judgment of the whole NCA and the cabinet. And this is what we thought was the best. And still I think that is the best way that one could do.
Question: You have said that minimum nucklear (sic) deterrence is one of the objectives of your administration. And whatever has happened in the recent past, this is not going to affect your program in that direction. But the important question is that we also have a peaceful nucklear development program which is also important to the country including the installation of atomic nucklear plants. What are your pro… what is your program in that particular field that is important for the country’s economy?
Now, when you are talking about deterrence theory you are talking about military use of nuclear power and in that we have to maintain our strategy to maintain a minimum deterrence level. And we have quantified this minimum deterrence level and we are fulfilling that. And I have very clearly said that mashallah, allamdullah we have crossed the minimum deterrence level. That side is well taken for. The other is peaceful use. In that you already know… Pervaiz Butt sahib you want to say something? Pervaiz Butt sahib, you say it.
----------------
1:25 till end.
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Pervez Butt: We are making a lot of progress under your guidance, in the peaceful uses of nuclear energy. We are making advances in finding minerals, Uranium. Processing it to make fuel. Two reactors, one is 30 years old, now back in operation. And the second one is operating very well. And we are about to sign the contract for the 3rd one. In the field of medical we have 13 nuclear medical centers. Five (?) more are under consideration and they will be established in the next few years. And our research & development in peaceful uses is going ahead at a fast pace. And in agriculture sir, crops that we have introduced, as a result of nuclear radiation mutations, new crops, diverse and additional income, give the farmers an additional income of more than a hundred million dollaras a year. So, we are making a lot progress in all the peaceful uses of
nuclear energy.
[English end]
[Urdu begin]
Someone: Our leader, you have given us consolation, it is a good news, that you have debriefed General Beg and General Karamat too. Then as a result of this debriefing, in your opinion, is it (true) that these two army chiefs were completely unaware of the activities of Mr. A.Q. Khan? Number two, Mr. Ishaq Dar, who is minister of treasury(?), he has said that Mr. Beg had come to Mian Nawaz Sharif, and he had said that if you give nuclear technology to Iran, then are willing to pay 12 billion dollars. And the linkages that Mr. Beg has with Iran, details of that have been coming through the years. Then what is the true position in your opinion?
Musharraf: Correct. See, the thing is, the first thing is that I have told you the organizational structure, i.e. the president, army chief and the scientists. This was the channel. And they were definitely in the channel. And all the developments have happened according to their will, according to their permission, and with their involvement. No chief of the army staff can deny this fact. Since they were in the chain. Only they used to interact with all the scientists, be it Mr. Samar or be it Mr. A.Q, or be it Dr. Ashfaq. Mr. Samar was in NDC, Mr. A.Q. was in KRL, in PAC Mr. Ashfaq. So, totally, all these army chiefs were involved, in the development and in the programming. They knew what was going on. Now the question arises whether they were involved in proliferation or not. Now you have…frankly, definitely, we have asked them many questions, I have asked these questions. Now these are statements. Now, you can’t accept these. One person says this, another says, no I didn’t , I have in some other context. And if they talk like this, then I am afraid that that is not evidence really. Therefore, whatever we have investigated, the investigation that we have done with evidence, those who are physically involved, and those who are involved in the money, and those who are involved in the transfer of the designs, those who are being named in that, the names we have got from outside through our investigation, in that they were named nowhere. That is what I will say.
Someone: You mentioned that, there will be no compromise on our vital national interests. One being the nuclear program, no rollback, the other is Kashmir, upon which you have said that there won’t be any compromise. You also mentioned that an honorable solution to the Kashmir issue will be reached. In your view, what can be an honorable solution to the Kashmir problem? And next the dialog process that is going to begin this month, which points it will go through to reach the core issue of Kashmir, so that talks could start on that.
Musharraf: Look, I don’t talk about solution…. I have many solutions in my heart and mind. They are not my own, I have read about them, people have talked about them. But I tell you that the time for those solutions hasn’t arrived yet. The time to discuss those solutions hasn’t arrived yet. I, I have said thousand times, lets start talking first, and in step two accept that Kashmir is a dispute that we need to solve. Both these steps have happened, alhamdullah, these two steps have been taken. These two steps had never been taken before. Now these two steps have happened. Now third and forth step that I have been talking about is lets eliminate what is unacceptable to the Kashmiris, Pakistanis and India. And from the remaining, lets move towards a solution that is acceptable to India, Pakistan and the Kashmiris. Now I don’t wish to discuss this. Because this discussion is premature. Now we can’t discuss, because we will keep fighting amongst ourselves. If we start fighting at this then we can’t move forward. So lets leave this. Now, from 16th to 18th Februray their foreign secretary will come here. These discussions will start. We have to decide in this which committees are there, which issues are there. Certainly, one committee should be the Kashmir committee. And when that is formed, then it should move forward. And frankly, this.., even in my mind there are blank areas, there are gray areas, that how are we going to move forward now. When we will start moving towards this, and when the discussions will start, that what is the solution for this. I will tell you people, you discuss if you wish, what is the solution. It will be information for me if you want to suggest any solutions. But these are to be done later. When the official level talks will start then the talk of solution will come, and then we will consider these. Now I can’t say anything.
Hamid Mir: I only want to ask this that, the statement of Dr. Qadeer that we heard on the TV, he said “whatever I did, I did in good faith, but I made an error of judgement”. I would like know that in whatever investigation has been done, what he talked about “good faith”, he must have given a definition of “good faith”, what is this “good faith”? Have you come to understand the meaning of this “good faith”.
Musharraf: There is an FIR against him. There is a written appeal, mercy appeal, from his side. And there is a written pardon from my side. I don’t want to talk about them. And this topic of shielding, I don’t want to talk about it. Because as I said, I want to protect his honor. Not completely, it hasn’t been… whatever has happened had to happen. And more than that I don’t want to… “in good faith”..I don’t want to define really. I don’t. I don’t know what is good faith.
Someone: Mr. President if you can just tell us that, was Dr. A.Q. Khan involved in this proliferation till the time of his retirement from KRL in 2001? And secondly when you say that the government and the army was not involved, so what could have been the motivation for Dr. Khan and ten other people from KRL to transfer information to not just Iran and Libya but also to North Korea.
Musharraf: (giggles) I mean, why are you asking me, you know it yourself what is the motivation of people to do these things. Money, obviously, that is the reality. Unfortunately money, this lust for money, may Allah give to no one. Because there is no limit to it. Don’t they know that a person has to finally go to his grave? But I don’t know why there is so much lust, money will be left behind in the bank.
Jang Columnist: I have a sincere request that in the national interest, and in the interest of national security, couldn’t you have kept this whole affair secret? Since the way our enemies have been writing, the way their TV has been commenting, that is paining us. After all this you pardoned him, this could have been done secretly too in the national interest. This is my question to you.
Musharraf: I am surprised that you would give us permission to keep things secret! I mean, how can you say such a thing? If you open your newspaper, there is a heavy bombardment…, whole newspaper is filled with this, then when do you allow anything to be secret? I am still keeping things secret, what do you know about the investigations? Which… who really knows what he (A.Q. Khan) has really done. You don’t know at all. Nobody knows. So, this investigation is still secret. We haven’t told, where, how, what has he done. This we haven’t even told so far. But we have told that he is definitely involved. Now you should take my word for it, you have to trust us that this is the reality.
Someone: Would experiences of Dr. A.Q. Khan.. (not clear part)?
Musharraf: We have so much, alhamdullah, talent. These scientists are sitting here. You could talk to them. We, alhamdullah, have no problem regarding anything. There are 6000 scietists here. As I have told, 2000 km range Shaheen-II is ready. Mr. Samar, tell them about this, so that inshallah they will know. So we have everything. Thank you very much.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
From B. Raman's article...
"A.Q.Khan made at least half a dozen visits to Dubai to meet officials of the Iranian intelligence and nuclear establishment. On at least one of his visits, he was accompanied by Lt.Gen.Ehsan-ul-Haq, the Director-General of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI)."
"A.Q.Khan made at least half a dozen visits to Dubai to meet officials of the Iranian intelligence and nuclear establishment. On at least one of his visits, he was accompanied by Lt.Gen.Ehsan-ul-Haq, the Director-General of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI)."
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
See Powell's Response to this question, which followed a reference to AXK:
>>QUESTION: Is there any concern based on evidence that he has sold nuclear materials
SECRETARY POWELL: He?
The bugger knows very well... Just does not want to let a peep out before its time, is my guess. They want to use the condom to the max before throwing it away.
>>QUESTION: Is there any concern based on evidence that he has sold nuclear materials
SECRETARY POWELL: He?
The bugger knows very well... Just does not want to let a peep out before its time, is my guess. They want to use the condom to the max before throwing it away.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
The video of the Mush lyingathon is an amazing spectacle. Among many things, I noticed:
(1) The fury in the beginning. The Big Scold was on - not unlike a very cross headmaster lecturing the assembly of errant boys in middle school.
(2) All the prime Mushlets were sitting in the front rows. Utterly subservient, as you can expect - "Sir, this; Sir that" when given a chance to speak. Two examples were phoren minister Kasuri, and that other fellow in charge of civlian nuke works (hospital radiation centers etc.), who both sprang to their feet to go "Sir, Sir, Sir etc." when asked by Mush to catch a few additional spears.
(3) And at the end, when you watch the last 2 or 3 questions, you see a ***very*** smug and satisfied Mush. His elation at having sustained his lies is hard to conceal. For him, I bet this was not much different from conducting a meeting of the Commanders of the Crore Corpses in the army house.
And yes, as others have pointed out, it was hilarious to see him say again and again and again that there was no government involvement in leaking nukes because the only people involved were:
(i) Xerox Khan (Head of a Prime Government Lab, and a top paid givernment servant), and (ii) the president of the Islamic republic (only the Head of State, and obviously enjoying a good government salary), and (iii) the army chief (obviously representing the apex of government power in Pakistan).
Amazing.
And yes, while hammering Iran and Libya in very insulting terms (ghutneh taek diye... woh sub lait gayeh i.e., them wimps put their knees down in total surrender), he completely swallowed the whistle when talking about NoKorea.
(1) The fury in the beginning. The Big Scold was on - not unlike a very cross headmaster lecturing the assembly of errant boys in middle school.
(2) All the prime Mushlets were sitting in the front rows. Utterly subservient, as you can expect - "Sir, this; Sir that" when given a chance to speak. Two examples were phoren minister Kasuri, and that other fellow in charge of civlian nuke works (hospital radiation centers etc.), who both sprang to their feet to go "Sir, Sir, Sir etc." when asked by Mush to catch a few additional spears.
(3) And at the end, when you watch the last 2 or 3 questions, you see a ***very*** smug and satisfied Mush. His elation at having sustained his lies is hard to conceal. For him, I bet this was not much different from conducting a meeting of the Commanders of the Crore Corpses in the army house.
And yes, as others have pointed out, it was hilarious to see him say again and again and again that there was no government involvement in leaking nukes because the only people involved were:
(i) Xerox Khan (Head of a Prime Government Lab, and a top paid givernment servant), and (ii) the president of the Islamic republic (only the Head of State, and obviously enjoying a good government salary), and (iii) the army chief (obviously representing the apex of government power in Pakistan).
Amazing.
And yes, while hammering Iran and Libya in very insulting terms (ghutneh taek diye... woh sub lait gayeh i.e., them wimps put their knees down in total surrender), he completely swallowed the whistle when talking about NoKorea.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Consider that Lt. Gen. Mahmood Ahmed on the one hand, warned AQK about a potential raid on an outbound proliferation flight, and that on the other he wired $100,000 to Omar Shaikh for onward transfer to Mohammed Atta. And remember he's still walking free.
Anybody who still doubts that key Paki generals knew about and most probably participated in the planning of 9/11 needs a thorough head examination.
See, the tech has been transferred to Al Qaida. I think that's what gave them the confidence to go ahead with 9/11. That's why they still warn of worse to come. The US knows that. The weapon (dirty maybe) is already shifted to the US mainland. That is the main (but not the only) reason why Bushadmin is treating Pakistan delicately.
Anybody who still doubts that key Paki generals knew about and most probably participated in the planning of 9/11 needs a thorough head examination.
See, the tech has been transferred to Al Qaida. I think that's what gave them the confidence to go ahead with 9/11. That's why they still warn of worse to come. The US knows that. The weapon (dirty maybe) is already shifted to the US mainland. That is the main (but not the only) reason why Bushadmin is treating Pakistan delicately.
Re: Pakistan Nuclear Proliferation - 04 Feb 2004
Interesting Iraqi angle to the proliferation episode by B.Raman
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.........Pakistani sources claim that there has been another bombshell in the admissions of guilt made by Khan's colleagues and juniors, who are still under custody and questioning. They are reported to have stated that during his over 40 visits to Dubai in the last three years, he had met Iraqi intelligence officials who sought his help in having some of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) material of Iraq airlifted from Syria to Pakistan for being kept in safe custody there to prevent their falling into the hands of the UN inspectors. Khan allegedly agreed to their request. According to them, in October,2002, Khan had a Pakistani aircraft, which had gone to Iran to deliver some equipment, stop in a Syrian airport on its way back . It picked up the Iraqi WMD "material" and brought it to Pakistan for safe custody on behalf of Iraq. It is not clear what did they mean by material -- only documents or something more? ...................
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Read the full article @ Outlookindia
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.........Pakistani sources claim that there has been another bombshell in the admissions of guilt made by Khan's colleagues and juniors, who are still under custody and questioning. They are reported to have stated that during his over 40 visits to Dubai in the last three years, he had met Iraqi intelligence officials who sought his help in having some of the weapons of mass destruction (WMD) material of Iraq airlifted from Syria to Pakistan for being kept in safe custody there to prevent their falling into the hands of the UN inspectors. Khan allegedly agreed to their request. According to them, in October,2002, Khan had a Pakistani aircraft, which had gone to Iran to deliver some equipment, stop in a Syrian airport on its way back . It picked up the Iraqi WMD "material" and brought it to Pakistan for safe custody on behalf of Iraq. It is not clear what did they mean by material -- only documents or something more? ...................
------------------------------------------
Read the full article @ Outlookindia