LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Oct 2016 16:57

Why doesn't GoI let HAL start making the airframes for the MK-1As in the meantime?
Up production to 16/yr already, churn out the airframes, then finish them when the final MK-1A config is tested and ready.
Will atleast save some time no?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 05 Oct 2016 17:05

Sulur Construction work seems to be keeping pace

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Oct 2016 18:05

rohitvats wrote:if Tejas Mk1A itself will take 2020-21 time-frame to mature, on what basis was the R&D establishment quoting a timeline of 2018-2019 for first flight of Tejas Mk2 earlier? Something which would require design changes in addition to all that is going on with respect to Tejas Mk1A?

The more realistic date was post 2020 always. I at least never believed 2018-19 as possibility for as far back as I can remember.

From what I have heard from multiple mouths, ADA has pulled significant resources from LCA and deployed on AMCA which is going full speed. It seems there is manpower-crunch at ADA. In last two years a meagre induction has happened which should be just enough to compensate for attrition, whereas AMCA has pickup good speed. If LCA MK2 was on cards we would have seen either AMCA slowed down or increased intake in ADA, to keep LCA on track.

I am not much sure about Mk1A though. I am surprized frankly why 2020-21 time line now. HAL seems to be doing fine on production side for now and ramp up was expected, 2nd line approval pending at MoD. Now suddenly we hear induction of LCA MK1A to be stretched to 2028. Rdar seems to be the cause.

Also I have heard something new happened at MoD level but I wouldn't talk about it unless I have some more details.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Oct 2016 18:29

JayS wrote:It seems there is manpower-crunch at ADA. In last two years a meagre induction has happened which should be just enough to compensate for attrition, whereas AMCA has pickup good speed.

Why isn't ADA hiring additional resources, even if it is on contract? I assume that shortage is in engineering side.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Oct 2016 20:48

Zynda wrote:
Why isn't ADA hiring additional resources, even if it is on contract? I assume that shortage is in engineering side.

They hire significant number of contract Project Assistances at pittance. Naturally those people leave in short time. Constant erosion of manpower and skills. Some contract project engineers are also hired with decent salaries. A lot of work is shared with NAL/HAL guys in design domain. But of coarse ADA must be paying for that from LCA funding.

I always wonder what stops GoI from expanding ADA to accelerate programs. May be funding is issue. Don't know for sure. LCA funding is low by any standard.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Oct 2016 21:38

Vivek K wrote:Commodore Rakesh, guess what will be easier - adding capabilities to the LCA or adding indian tyres to the Rafales? Guess whose permission we will not need to launch punitive strikes against terrorism?

With the French, we will not need permission to launch punitive strikes - using the Rafale - against terrorism. Kargil and the use of the Mirage 2000 proved that.

ShauryaT wrote:Does France have any other aircraft for their nuclear delivery role, apart from Mirage/Rafale?

The French Air Force uses the Mirage 2000-N (now supplanted by the Rafale B/C) in the nuclear delivery role. That's it. Check these images/video out. The last link is quite interesting to watch.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-naL85HtHpZA/T ... ASMP-A.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AFBa_74DHkk/T ... g2511w.jpg

http://rafalenews.blogspot.ca/2014/12/v ... afale.html

ShauryaT wrote:Do we really need Rafale for free fall bombs. Further more, France relies on a short range ALCM for its payload delivery from the air. What is the plan for the Indian Rafale? Possible for it to carry a Brahmos or Nirbhay? I do not know of any plans to nuclear arm the Brahmos, so it has to be the Nirbhay for such a venture. Feasible for the Rafale to carry it? Will it be permitted? Is that the best use of the asset? Can the asset be even used against China, with a 3000 km, one way trip - presuming we are not looking to nuke Tibet and our deterrence is about counter value not counter force. Is there any reason on earth, why Tejas IS NOT able to carry a a free fall nuclear payload? Weight? Dimensions? I am not saying Tejas is the best bet, there are other assets that can do the job, include the Rafale.

The air force believes they need the Rafale for nuclear delivery - in free fall or cruise launched mode. How or who can argue against that? The Rafale has far longer legs than the Tejas. Again, two different aircraft designed for two different roles. Remember, the Tejas was initially designed as a MiG-21 replacement. The fact that it is better than the Mirage 2000 is certain respects is a plus. An effective platform for nuclear delivery, I doubt. While technically feasible, the question remains...will it be effective? I don't believe the IAF thinks it is best suited for that role.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 05 Oct 2016 23:15

* Bureucracy ADA wants to hire permanent staff but that doesn't occur and have to do with temp posts and people keep leaving so it becomes difficult.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 05 Oct 2016 23:31

Small Snippet from FB page:

From the Archives: The LCA Tejas In Goa
Tejas passed the flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet (270 m). Tejas recorded a speed of over 1350 km/h.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 05 Oct 2016 23:40

* Bureucracy ADA wants to hire permanent staff but that doesn't occur and have to do with temp posts and people keep leaving so it becomes difficult.

Is is something to do with pay? Like the oft repeated cliche, 9 women cannot give a baby in 1 month. Similarly, a 100 engineers cannot solve a problem without the necessary skills that 10 engineers can solve with the required skills. Instead of paying billions for imports and billions more on indigenous projects that are way past the deadline, spend some of that money on paying the staff to attract quality talent and then retain them. PSU's should create a class of engineers/scientists who gets paid an amount that makes it attractive to stay in India/work for PSU rather than go abroad. I believe it would be around 50% of international pay. Given the lower cost of living in India, the savings for the engineer would be around the same he would save with 100% pay abroad. Added incentive would be he can stay in India closer to family, good food, PSU vacations, job security and PSU retirement benefits.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Oct 2016 10:01

Tejas LCA

For the first time, the IAF chief spelt out a detailed commitment and road map for inducting 120 Tejas fighters into the IAF in a decade.

Raha said the first squadron, which will have 20 Tejas with “initial operational certification” (IOC), will have four fighter this year, with HAL boosting production to eight fighters annually from next year. “So in another year and a half’s time, we will have a full squadron of LCA’s – the IOC version.”

Raha revealed the long-delayed “final operational certification” (FOC) of the Tejas was imminent. “I’m sure in another five-six months FOC would be cleared and production will start as soon as [HAL] finishes producing the IOC version. So we expect that the FOC version [of the Tejas] will be operationalised in an IAF fighter squadron in another three years’ time.”

Meanwhile, the Tejas Mark 1A, with improved radar, weapons, electronic warfare capability and maintainability would fly in three-four years. “We should be able to start production of this aircraft by 2020-21; and in another five-seven years [i.e. by 2025-28], we’ll have 80 Tejas Mark 1A fighters,” said Raha.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 819_1.html

don't read on the "second line fighters".. it will have a surgical strike at your H&D

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 06 Oct 2016 10:15

I've been hearing the same stuff about human resources since 2010. Even the poster prasannasimha had provided me with name of a consultancy which hires folks on contract for ADA. When someone I know with some aerospace experience from outside India, was looking to relocate to India ,so that he could be part of product development, the consultancy said that they only place freshers. He wanted to visit their office and just speak to them but he was told not to waste his time. There are a small set of experienced folks in BLR/outside India who are committed/interested in working in a product dev environment, willing to compromise a little on the compensation part. Not pittance like 15K/month which is usually what these folks pay to freshers...but these folks are willing to stick on and learn during the process unlike most freshers who quit at the first opportunity of more money. Unfortunately, I have not seen any recruitments ads or any avenues for folks like above to work with Govt labs. The Chinese have established a Pvt aerospace company in CA, which "consults" COMAC back in China. They are hiring contractors at both locations i.e. China as well as CA office from US. We drag our feet on building up resources while spending billions on imports. No wonder India gets treated like junk when it comes to aerospace engineering. Sorry for the rant...have to periodically get it off from my chest.

kvraghavaiah · Post by **kvraghavaiah** » 06 Oct 2016 12:22

Which MP/Minister or ruler cares for the common money of the country?

All big names are only for self promotion; not for diligent work on this kind of issues.

I wrote to PMO multiple times with practicable and needed solutions to many issues like these. They just trash my letters.

They will work on something only if they find future fame in it.

Some how even apparent Gods happened to be demons after contact and closer look, in my every interaction with people.

I am frustrated with this system.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Oct 2016 12:40

^^ Not only ADA, even for DRDO no significant recruitments have happened in last 4-5years. Last time the SET was conducted was in 2009 IIRC. There was a news that DRDO lacks some 2000+ scientists about 2yrs ago. I had high hopes from current govt that they will resolve this HR issues. But alas, nothing concrete has been done in last 2years. in fact more problems have been created, it seems.

There are a lot of good people itching to do some quality work and (also out of nationalism) are willing to go to govt organisations. Sadly our system is incompetent to keep such talent. Same people who could do far better work in DRDO are doing PPTgiri in some body shopping offices next door.

AFAIK there was an exodus from all govt establishments in BLR to booming IT/Engg services companies during 2000, significant erosion of experienced talent happened. In those pre-6CPC days salaries of permanent employees itself were pittance. Now the situation is that for fresher to say 6-8yr experience, one can get better salaries in govt than in pvt aerospace companies. After that things diverge rapidly. So erosion is experienced man power is a given. But even for entry level positions the opportunities are few and far between.

Well, the least said the better about all this crap. But make no mistake this all hurt our programs very badly.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 06 Oct 2016 13:21

I've been hearing the same stuff about human resources since 2010. Even the poster prasannasimha had provided me with name of a consultancy which hires folks on contract for ADA. When someone I know with some aerospace experience from outside India, was looking to relocate to India ,so that he could be part of product development, the consultancy said that they only place freshers. He wanted to visit their office and just speak to them but he was told not to waste his time. There are a small set of experienced folks in BLR/outside India who are committed/interested in working in a product dev environment, willing to compromise a little on the compensation part. Not pittance like 15K/month which is usually what these folks pay to freshers...but these folks are willing to stick on and learn during the process unlike most freshers who quit at the first opportunity of more money. Unfortunately, I have not seen any recruitments ads or any avenues for folks like above to work with Govt labs. The Chinese have established a Pvt aerospace company in CA, which "consults" COMAC back in China. They are hiring contractors at both locations i.e. China as well as CA office from US. We drag our feet on building up resources while spending billions on imports. No wonder India gets treated like junk when it comes to aerospace engineering. Sorry for the rant...have to periodically get it off from my chest.

It is incredulous really. India IS criminally lethargic when it comes to Aerospace investment.

A thing or two could be learned from the Chinese.

$15 billion injected into Chinese jet engine program. Mock them all you want. But such large sums invested over several years will pay dividends.
The Chinese know that for their own market alone, buying foreign jet engines & their lifetime support will bleed their aircraft industry and companies.

They mocked Huawei once. Today they edge out Ericsson from the mobile infrastructure market in !!Europe!!

Comac C919 - 10 years investement. Pitting against the A320 - the most widely sold aircraft in the world. In a few years, they will have the CHinese market. And in 5-10 years, they will undercut Airbus elsewhere. yes, it is driven by LEAP engine from CFM . And people can deride the program by saying the engine is foreign.
But at least they are not waiting for their own engine to be ready....parallelizing and mmaking up with domestic knowhow as they learn and grow.

Parrikar mentioned that there is a need for 4000-6000 turboshaft engines for the domestic market alone.
But makes no mention of passenger aircraft.
Saras was left to hibernate for 5 years or so. RTA-70/90 didnt manage to cross paper-work milestone. (even the military IJT seems to be spin and stall tests forever. )
And we aren't even thinking about 150 passenger aircraft.
India will keep buying aerospace nuts, bolts to CKDs to fully assmebled aircrafy and bleed every $ that others work hard to earn.

Is there anyting stopping us from making a high by-pass for commercial variant derived from Kaveri? Throw some money there. Let the initial work start. There will be tonnes to learn , identify problems and gain experience in that. Why are we waiting and twiddling our thumbs.
Have we tried even integrating the existing Kaveri with say a Mig-29? Again, there will be so much to learn and gain experience from.

There seems to be no urgency to think about competing in the domestic market with our own product , let alone thinking of far more time-consuming things like resource pool, univ education, internships, domestic aviation manufacturing policy etc.

Yet $8 billion gets stuffed into Raha's Gucci bag in no time.
We are destined to be slaves.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 06 Oct 2016 19:04

Indeed SP3 in IAF colors looks beautiful

2 super-noob questions,
1. Between the edge of Radome and Cockpit, there is some thing protruding in forward direction (some pitot tube?), what is it and what is its function? (Normally fuel refueling probe appears on that place in most fighters)
2. Is the Radome painted differently than rest of the aircraft for better range OR may be the painting of Radome is matched later to the rest of the body paint of the aircraft ? (My understanding is that better range from radar is 95% due to the involved radar-technology, Radome metallurgy and not due to painting).

Anantha Krishnan (tweet id - writetake) - #Tejas SP-3 taxiing for first flight on Sept 28 from HAL Airport in Bangalore. It is now painted in IAF colours, but MAY miss Hindon trip.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Oct 2016 19:12

^^Its pitot tube for velocity measurement. There are three of them. One at nose and two on either sides. See in this picture.

Also notice two AoA indicators just a little downstream.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 06 Oct 2016 19:29

Thanks JayS for the picture and showing the extra 2 pitot tubes plus the 2 AOA's

I will wait for answer on the Radome from BRFites.

2. Is the Radome painted differently than rest of the aircraft for better range OR may be the painting of Radome is matched later to the rest of the body paint of the aircraft ? (My understanding is that better range from radar is 95% due to the involved radar-technology, Radome metallurgy and not due to painting).

JayS wrote:^^Its pitot tube for velocity measurement. There are three of them. One at nose and two on either sides. See in this picture.

Also notice two AoA indicators just a little downstream.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Oct 2016 00:01

Bhaskar: Check these links on Radomes.

http://www.radome.com/generic.aspx?id=197268

http://www.radome.com/generic.aspx?id=197270

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Oct 2016 00:15

SP3 looks really good in that picture..I somehow am not that big a fan of the two-tone grey camo that the IAF has gone with on the Tejas..IMO would've been better with all around dark grey with the lighter grey radome.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 07 Oct 2016 01:48

Bhaskar_T wrote:
2. Is the Radome painted differently than rest of the aircraft for better range OR may be the painting of Radome is matched later to the rest of the body paint of the aircraft ? (My understanding is that better range from radar is 95% due to the involved radar-technology, Radome metallurgy and not due to painting).

Anantha Krishnan (tweet id - writetake) - #Tejas SP-3 taxiing for first flight on Sept 28 from HAL Airport in Bangalore. It is now painted in IAF colours, but MAY miss Hindon trip.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuDndG5VIAAesj0.jpg

The picture was while SP-3 was taxiing for its first flight and it was not painted at that time but according to Anantha Krishnan it has been painted in IAF colours now.

Jayram · Post by **Jayram** » 07 Oct 2016 05:02

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... mpare.html
J17 vs LCA

In summation, the Xiaolong is the aircraft of today and the Tejas is the aircraft of tomorrow.

Not sure if this was discussed earlier here.. Published in China Times in 2015

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Oct 2016 08:13

Kartik wrote:SP3 looks really good in that picture..I somehow am not that big a fan of the two-tone grey camo that the IAF has gone with on the Tejas..IMO would've been better with all around dark grey with the lighter grey radome.

Absolutely. I love the all Tippy grey. Looks much more menacing than the dual tone.

jahaju · Post by **jahaju** » 07 Oct 2016 10:27

First flight of LCA Tejas SP3 followed in Vietnam

Tejas aircraft takeoff and opportunities for Vietnam
Google translation

Because according to Jane's Defence Weekly Journal in mid 7/2016, together with BarhMos missiles, fighter Tejas New Delhi are also being sold to Vietnam promotion. According to the source, there Tejas fighter comparable to American F-16 Block52 JAS-39 Gripen and Sweden ".

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 07 Oct 2016 13:42

Forget about selling LCA Tejas to anyone if the second line of F-teens or Gripen comes. Our marketing is getting ahead of what HAL can deliver.

jahaju · Post by **jahaju** » 07 Oct 2016 17:01

^
That is the tragedy of India. Newer products will keep on coming and we will keep on racing behind them.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 07 Oct 2016 21:18

There was a tv program on undytv walk the talk with the guys at ADA. Quite a few info on
LCA and AMCA. If anyone can find the link and post it.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 Oct 2016 23:09

ashthor wrote:There was a tv program on undytv walk the talk with the guys at ADA. Quite a few info on
LCA and AMCA. If anyone can find the link and post it.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-th ... o-featured

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Oct 2016 23:13

how come some linked in guys always have access to resources and others don't?

it is high time there exists more reliable channels.
http://idrw.org/air-chief-arup-raha-per ... ore-110854

disha · Post by **disha** » 07 Oct 2016 23:25

Some questions are interesting and just thinking of those questions make me grab my hair sometimes to pull out.

Comparison with France is ridiculous. France is the size of AP+Telangana put together (almost) and does not have to defend a very very very long border on both east and west. A better comparison will be to combine all the airforces of the EU with two nuclear neighbors (Russia and Turkey, yes count turkey twice) and see what size of air force they have and compare it with IAF. Note that it is still not near., since one has to keep a long deep desert on the EU border to even get the comparison near. Also throw in generation changes of aircrafts and a comparatively meagre budget.

Can Tejas carry a nukular phool., yes - it can. Can it come back safe after dropping a nukular phool., I doubt so. It just does not have enough legs. Delusions of kamikaze not withstanding.

enaiel · Post by **enaiel** » 07 Oct 2016 23:43

Some interesting points from that ndtv program:
1. Tandem pylons have just been tested on Tejas.
2. AMCA has only just completed feasibility studies. Sanction for Full Scale Development will only be given after a few technical gap filling studies are done.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2016 00:01

disha, I would not consider nook role for LCA /period. Put those as requirements for AMCA

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 08 Oct 2016 00:11

disha wrote: Can Tejas carry a nukular phool., yes - it can. Can it come back safe after dropping a nukular phool., I doubt so. It just does not have enough legs. Delusions of kamikaze not withstanding.

Question is at what range. Indian phools are 500Kg each. There was a talk by Saraswat at IIT, but its no longer online. I posted a summary of that talk in missiles thread. In one of the slides he showed clearly next gen land based missile will have a payload of 3000kg to deliver 6 phools and sub based one will have payload of 2000Kg to deliver 4 phools. With 1000Kg phool+missile payload and with 2 external fuel tanks, Tejas will have radius of action of ~500Km (one way range ~1000km), so anything in porkistan is game. It won't be enough for peking, but Rafale will be no good for that either.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 08 Oct 2016 00:26

I don't understand your logic that Teen/Gripen assembly will kill LCA export chances.

LCA is to replace at least 14 Mig Squadrons and development started in 1990's. Teens/Gripens are for 80 MMRCA fighters (126 - 36 Rafales) and this need was realised around 2002-2005. LCA and Teens/Gripens can co-exist if allowed so. LCA has started production assembly and will have firm 100 orders (MK1A flight 2019/2020) before even the Teens/Gripen contract is signed (How long it took us to sign Rafale deal after being announced a winner?). In fact, Parrikar ji (hopefully) would have doubled the LCA production line capacity from 8 to 16. Say, we agree/sign Teen Production assembly on contract by 2020, establishing a production line in Karnataka/Marashtra will take another 3-4 years, i.e. 2024. For 80 Teens, initial capacity planned might be 8/year.

JTull wrote:Forget about selling LCA Tejas to anyone if the second line of F-teens or Gripen comes. Our marketing is getting ahead of what HAL can deliver.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Oct 2016 01:38

What one way hain ji?
Drop the phool, land in Afghanistan, refuel and fly back onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2016 01:44

but not validated phools. sometime back after shakti peet ceremony, people felt the dial-in failed.

assumption: the siva's pillar of light (ends) is yet not reached. it was only a.k. brahma telling us the truth

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Oct 2016 02:02

ShauryaT wrote:
ashthor wrote:There was a tv program on undytv walk the talk with the guys at ADA. Quite a few info on
LCA and AMCA. If anyone can find the link and post it.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/shows/walk-th ... o-featured

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody should watch this. Wow! Wow! Wow!

1. Tandem carriage already tested. All I would love to see now is multi-racks for BVR missiles.
2. Leh, hot day: 28-29 degree C. Trainer with two pilots, two 1200 ltr tanks, two 1000 lbs bombs got airborne with plenty of margin to spare. That is short of MTOW by a few hundred kgs !!!!

A plane with such features must be very maneuverable in the air, I have no doubt now.
3. Air chief flew it uninitiated from the back completing both take off and landing, and pulled 4.5-5 G maneuvers loving every aspect of it. It is a testimony of its ease to fly.

We have moved the goal posts to fit imported aircrafts. E.g. Rafales chosen for MMRCA are now being touted as our nuclear delivery platform! Let us stop moving them for our own aircrafts.

Kill this nonsense of yet another extra line right now! Pour money into accelerating Tejas/Su-30 deliveries. If required, get a few more Rafales.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 08 Oct 2016 02:09

Another interesting data point from the walk the talk video:

A 'twin' seater LCA could TO at Leh with 2x1000lbs bombs + 2x1200ltr fuel tanks (+ 2xCCM should also be there) with margin in thrust as it took off in less that expected distance.

In recent time ADA has seen better than expected performance from Tejas. So we can expect some more juice out of existing set up in coming days. We saw one such incidence in NLCA where the ascent rate was significanly higher than expected from ski jump.

PS: Just saw IR's post. Point 3 is known and discussed here previously from that video of ACM flying LCA. But he didn’t do Landing. (no mention in this video at least)

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 08 Oct 2016 02:12

^^^
+100. Yep very nice video. It was good to hear about probably a secret hidden project as well. Perhaps something on the lines of Neuron.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 08 Oct 2016 02:17

Also I found it funny how ADA guys call AMCA "Aamka". I never knew this one.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 08 Oct 2016 02:23

indranilroy wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:
1. Tandem carriage already tested. All I would love to see now is multi-racks for BVR missiles.

By tandem carriage we mean this, yes?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/-qKtynYtR_6k/UbhdP ... t-2013.jpg