Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Ramu · Post by **Ramu** » 10 Oct 2016 04:31

LCA is just the right size if you think in terms of selling to countries like Vietnam or brazil or Ecuador. Remember war is a good business only if you are selling it. Its a liability if you buy lots.
We are in a war since the day of our partition and we are going to be in it for a while or more. So we better start behave like we are in one.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Oct 2016 04:46

Ramu wrote:I suspect current ACM is a leftover from UPA inner cricles.

Why? Just because he does not meet your level enthusiasm for LCA? and what about Modi and Parrikar? Are they too left-overs from UPA days? Are they lesser 'desh-bhakts' than uber-patriots on BRF like you?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Oct 2016 08:23

Cybaru wrote:They might as well restart the mig-21 line if they are going to start importing 3rd gen dead lines like mirage, f-16 and some of the cheap single engine worthies. I don't understand this dog and pony show.

The LCA is a 4th gen that the IAF does not want in numbers. Placing orders of 200-250 LCAs would build fleet strength and bring in 4th gen tech and easily upgradable aircraft.

IAF is willing to look into F16/F18 that are 3.5 gen. So if we need to make up squadron numbers why not look into M2k (which is what the IAF wanted but the French played hard to get and unloaded the Rafale instead to make more money) and the Mig29s. While you talk of this as a dog and pony show - the IAF is spending 4-5 billion on these upgrades right now.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2016 08:28

>> Any other nation - especially China would have built 500-1000 Mk1As @ 25-50 a/c per year.

uh they already did that with the J-10 which is into its fourth block now. not as good as the eurofighter, but its there - in huge numbers and getting better all the time.

on another note 12,000 Mi8/17 helis have been made and more building still

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Oct 2016 08:38

Good point Karan. The BJP is morphing into an INC look alike. Make in India is becoming a "Mirage" - pun intended.

wig · Post by **wig** » 10 Oct 2016 09:46

IAF seeks 12 radars to counter missile threat

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 07334.html

The Indian Air Force has drawn up plans to acquire 12 high-powered radars to counter the threat posed by the induction of new combat aircraft in the region, some of which are claimed to have stealth capabilities, as well as ballistic missiles.
Such radars have the capability to detect airborne targets at a range of several hundred kilometres. These will combat the growing obsolescence and plug gaps in the country’s existing air defence network.
The IAF has specified that the radars should be able to detect targets at an altitude of 30 kms with the ability to detect and track targets having a radar cross section of 0.1 square metre or less following a parabolic trajectory. The systems, which can also be deployed in high altitude areas, should also have measures to counter electronic warfare and anti-radiation missiles.
The move to procure high-powered radars comes in the backdrop of India being in the process of acquiring several other systems, including long-range surface-to-air missiles, to strengthen defences against aerial threats.
The IAF has an array of low, medium and long range radars to meet different operational requirements. At present, its requirement of high-power radars, which are large and static systems with an elaborate infrastructure, is met by a mix of Russian and French systems. The French Thales radar, which that has a range of about 600 kms, has been in service for several decades. Besides imported systems, a number of indigenously developed radars such as Rohini, Arudhra and Indra series met low and medium range requirements. The private sector in India is also reported to be working on high-powered radar systems.
The Russian S-400 missile that has a range of 380 km, Israeli Spyder low-level quick reaction missiles, the indigenous Akash and the under development medium range surface-to-air missile along with the missile shield for important cities are among the systems being put in place to enhance air defence capabilities.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Oct 2016 09:54

Vivek K wrote:Good point Karan. The BJP is morphing into an INC look alike. Make in India is becoming a "Mirage" - pun intended.

Its not that bad Vivek. The problem is very simply, there are too many things to fix and I suspect, defence is one of those things BJP is simply scared to really fix. They can't touch some of the real problems - OFB for instance (trade unionism). Forces - OROP was a huge headache. So they will go by whatever AHQ etc suggest. Its herding cats. And sadly a reflection of how broken our system is. I only hope (and I do think) that Parrikar will continue its focus on local programs to a degree. DRDO got 2 raises on its R&D budget IIRC - lets hope that continues. People like Tarun Vijay (BJP spokes) are genuinely interested in indigenization (as versus INC fatcats who were lobbying for MMRCA imports and getting a finger in).. so its not all one color or good or bad. Unfortunately, till things settle down & BJP gets a second mandate or even a third, I don't think a Defence Minister (and that too, only if he has had that constant experience) will move beyond merely being a procurement minister to a proper DM. So much needs to be fixed.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Oct 2016 10:17

is there an israeli equivalent of the american X band radar ??

Arjunn · Post by **Arjunn** » 10 Oct 2016 10:18

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 10 Oct 2016 10:26

Congress strategy was better IMO. Spend the least possible on weapons since most of them were being imported or money was being siphoned off. Spend the savings on social services to raise IQ and get more people trained up.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Oct 2016 12:20

wig wrote:IAF seeks 12 radars to counter missile threat---->>>http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 07334.html

Finally, an effort towards replacing the vaunted THD-1955 radars.

@Karan M - Any local R&D program in this category?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2016 12:48

For realistic abm coverage of launches from deep in the ocean, cheen or blochistan...we need the football field sized static radars the russians and khans have put up.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 10 Oct 2016 13:20

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Oct 2016 13:21

Singha wrote:For realistic abm coverage of launches from deep in the ocean, cheen or blochistan...we need the football field sized static radars the russians and khans have put up.

Do static radars have the resolution of a X band ?? Also i posted that idea long back .. the mountainous regions seem to limit their range ..unless you have something like the Jindalee radar system that is currently undergoing upgrades !!

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Oct 2016 13:25

a Jindalee like system (that upgrade is supposedly capable of intercepting 5th gen stealth) in central India can cover the whole of China and beyond ..Pakistan is small fry to such a capable system .. this can be a huge force multiplier vs China enabling continous surveillance in situations of hostilities .. an alternative is Radar imaging satellites / imaging reconnaissance satellites in GTO

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2016 14:37

X band is targetting for abm interceptors
Football fields and jindalee are early warning and wide are surveillance
Sats are for thermal signature of launches

We need all three they r for tasks in the kill chain and 2nd strike decision loop, leadership evacuation

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Oct 2016 14:38

Anything with gaps or tokenism is not fit for top table

If we play then lets play properly bot **** around with tokens and hopes

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Oct 2016 15:31

vina wrote:
All they can do is poach from HAL or others, which will impact current projects
You couldnt be more wrong . All they are going to do is screwdrivergiri. What HAL did for 50 years, those guys are going to do with a new name outside in a new place. That is all.

For that, they are NOT going to poach any HAL guys. They will hire fresh young folks out of ITIs, and pay them entry level wages and put a few Gora overseers/foremen to run the show. Chotta Bhai or Mota Bhai and others are not going to do any R&D and definitely are not going to hire any folks to even design a screw. Foggedaboutit.

This is like saying when Altsom /Bombardier/GE/Hitachi set up loco and rolling stock plants here, they will go and poach from ICF Perambur, RCF Kapurthala, Chittaranjan LW or Diesel LW at Varanasi. No way. Those guys are old PSU /stuck in their groove overpaid , unionised and politicised . No one will touch them. They will hire fresh off the industrial training institutes and employ them and allows them the opportunity to start with a fresh slate and inculcate a different culture from the Govt/PSU kinds.

Post from the past:
Original link is dead but quoted text is there on BR.
viewtopic.php?p=443305#p443305

Shortage of manpower is another crippling factor. When the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) project began on the drawing board, the team had more than 120 scientists looking after different aspects. However, when the plane was finally ready to fly, less than 25 scientists were there. Thanks to the boom in the information technology industry that required trained engineers and scientists.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Oct 2016 18:14

Indigenisation requires massive funds and resource commitment. Babus simply don't have the mindset to support the push.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Oct 2016 18:46

For talent retention, HAL needs to function like an autonomous unit free from political interference with a merit based system. And most importantly, talent will be retained if IAF really wants to Make in India. If for its needs IAF will go rushing to Dassault or Sukhoi or Mig or BAE, then local talent will find employment with those companies.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 10 Oct 2016 19:35

Root of all such illnesses is $$$ and a lot of $$$s.

We can cry out output this and that, but unless we pour mad money (without reading CAG reports every few years) there won't be any real progress. While we count pennies spent on LCA program, we sign multi billion contracts one after another with zero vision for this country.

1. Research into metallurgy needs huge funds.
2. Research into composites needs huge funds.
3. Expansion of production facilities require huge huge funds ( remember HAL gloating about not enough orders).
4. Research into aero engines requires huge huge funds.

Throw enough money and solutions will start to show up little by little. When the money is right countries can sell even the most guarded secrets.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2016 21:10

Vivek K wrote:For talent retention, HAL needs to function like an autonomous unit free from political interference with a merit based system. And most importantly, talent will be retained if IAF really wants to Make in India. If for its needs IAF will go rushing to Dassault or Sukhoi or Mig or BAE, then local talent will find employment with those companies.

HAL is a PSU. The GOI has to privatize it. Not about to happen. And thus everything else you said - which is spot on - will not happen.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 10 Oct 2016 21:46

Let's rename Defense R&D as International Games, Babus will immediately alot 100,000 crores. 20% we can pay as bribes, rest can be used as R&D expenditure

Arjunn · Post by **Arjunn** » 10 Oct 2016 22:55

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 11 Oct 2016 01:09

Vivek K wrote:For talent retention, HAL needs to function like an autonomous unit free from political interference with a merit based system. And most importantly, talent will be retained if IAF really wants to Make in India. If for its needs IAF will go rushing to Dassault or Sukhoi or Mig or BAE, then local talent will find employment with those companies.

I had posted a few weeks back (in another thread) about NAL sending home the contractors who were associated with AMCA structural engineering. Apparently, NAL did not get project to continue their involvement with AMCA design iterations.

SOme of the contractors whom I know were folks with <3 years of experience...most of them moved to Pvt Sector with some disappointment knowing that they may never work again in a Product Development environment. A few others switched over to other industries due to dull aero engg job market in desh.

We have been citing talent resource crunch since mid-2000s and yet it seems like incidents like the above keep on happening. How will India develop & nourish talent if we don't encourage domestic programs? No wonder with above practices, we come up decent (not great) products and services will scream that we want state-of-the-art. MIL is a symbiotic relationship...

I a little concerned for LCA Mk2 and AMCA. I hope we don't have a Marut episode all again.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Oct 2016 02:11

This resource crunch is manufactured. There is no dearth of talent in India. They are squandered away. Our entire situation is screwed up. The market (aka our forces), netas, babus, industrial set up (read PSU monopoly). Otherwise, we have new graduates from at least 20 good schools in India graduating every year. All they need is a decent salary and good work. Otherwise, they will continue to design automobile engines, and software solutions and financial solutions like most of my friends. And no, they don't enjoy it. They would rather remain aero-engineers. They don't have a real choice.

Ours is a country where the powers that be want to kill a desi product before it is born (read HTT-40, Saras etc.) or before it can mature (read LCA).

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Oct 2016 02:19

Zynda wrote: We have been citing talent resource crunch since mid-2000s and yet it seems like incidents like the above keep on happening. How will India develop & nourish talent if we don't encourage domestic programs? No wonder with above practices, we come up decent (not great) products and services will scream that we want state-of-the-art. MIL is a symbiotic relationship...

Sometimes I feel, Lack of talent thing is a hoax spread by Indian industries who want incoming engineers who can just start delivering from day one. They don't want to invest anything from their pocket on HR development. Just observe how a value of engineer increases in mere 6months of experience in any random company, they learn industry standard tools/practices in those 6 months. But no company is willing to hire the same freshie guy and give him same 6month training. Neither they would help academia in giving proper exposure to students. In my observation, Indian industry is utterly incapable of giving any decent job for even those handful people who are talented and can do something good. PPTgiri can earn you far more than good engineering skills.

As far as Aerospace is concerned, engineers are dime a dozen in BLR. With little to no training most of them can take up routine definition work. A handful of them who are really good can work in Design phase. There is no dearth of talent at least for white collar aero jobs. YOu don't need too many engineers. Entire DRDO has only about 7000 engg of all sorts.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Oct 2016 10:49

Sid wrote:
VinodTK wrote:IAF kicks off contest to make single-engine fighters in India

I hope this nation is not stupid enough to go down this path.

Is the LCA being killed via the above method.

Does anyone know what's going on?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 Oct 2016 16:14

India started developing L Band long range radars as part of / along with BMD missile system in and around 1995-96. Development of L band radars have been additionally funded as part of India AWACS programme.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Oct 2016 06:30

Not sure if we have a tanker thread, so posting this here. Admins, please move if necessary.

Boeing offers KC-46 tanker to India
http://www.stratpost.com/boeing-offers- ... nker-india

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 12 Oct 2016 11:57

KC-46 may be as expensive as Airbus. Sure that MOF shall reject the Funding.

IL-78 certainly looks to have an Upper Hand. Frequent Cancellations are only hurting the IAF as it been a Decade since it was Last Planned for.

Jai Hind!!!

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 12 Oct 2016 14:25

Can KC 46 do drogue refuelling?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 12 Oct 2016 14:32

Report from Feb 2016

EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. (AFNS) -- An Air Force and Boeing aircrew aboard a KC-46A Pegasus successfully refueled an F/A-18 Hornet fighter jet in flight Feb. 10, marking the program’s first using the tanker’s hose and drogue system.

Double Boom Drogue - very safe for work link

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Oct 2016 16:26

pkudva wrote:KC-46 may be as expensive as Airbus. Sure that MOF shall reject the Funding.

IL-78 certainly looks to have an Upper Hand. Frequent Cancellations are only hurting the IAF as it been a Decade since it was Last Planned for.

Jai Hind!!!

KC-46 will be better long term bet than Airbus 330MT. It'll be a new aircraft with USAF/USN assuring large orders. This will ensure availability of spares for much longer. Far better choice than end-of-line C-17s.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2016 16:34

equal size and cost...neither the KC-X or A330 or C17 are going to be out of service in next few decades. too much capex invested on them. amrika operates 120 C17 as the global workhorse with the bigger C5 tailing off with low uptime and age...the c130j is too small for trans oceanic hauling. A330 is a workhorse and hugely successful.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Oct 2016 16:40

From Todays Deccan Herald, on the subject of Aerospace talent in India
To hasten launch, govt may downsize Centre of Excellence in Aerospace

“There is a severe shortage of qualified engineers in aircraft overhaul and maintenance. Even for basic repairs we have to look at engineers from abroad. Bengaluru, being the hub of aerospace industry, needs an institute to provide specialised training in aircraft maintenance at the earliest”, Minister of State for Information Technology and Biotechnology Priyank Kharge said. The initiative to set up the Centre has jointly been taken up by the departments of Industries, IT & BT and Higher Education.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Oct 2016 22:34

CROSS-POST

Kartik wrote:Not exactly related to transport aircraft for the IAF, but hey, its MRTT, so in a way its a part time transport too. So it's going to be KC-46, Airbus A-330 MRTT and Il-78MD-90A MRTT.

Someone please start a new thread for Indian Military Aviation, the old one is over 100 pages and locked.

posting article in full from AW&ST

The Indian air force is working to define its qualitative requirements for an aerial tanker to replace its seven Ilyushin Il-78MKIs after scrapping plans to buy six AirbusA330 Multi-Role Tanker Transports (MRTT), and will accept offers from any global vendor capable of meetings its needs.

A high-ranking Indian air force official tells Aviation Week that the tender for six Airbus tankers was withdrawn related to cost concerns and an ongoing reassessment of requirements. The official stressed that the demand for more tanker capacity is greater now than ever, and the acquisition process will resume when the requirements and quantity have been revalidated. He anticipates an “open and transparent competition” between the Airbus A330 MRTT, Boeing KC-46 or other aircraft capable of meeting India’s needs. The official says Russia could even offer its new Ilyushin Il-78MD-90A-based multirole tanker, which is slated to begin testing in 2017.

“We talk about an open and transparent competition,” the Indian official says. “We don’t say we need this airplane or another. We state what capabilities the air force needs; whichever manufacturer can meet those needs obviously goes into the competition. It’s a global tender. Every country or industry that has the capability and can prove it will be cleared to respond, and there are people who can respond even if they cannot meet the qualifying requirements. Everybody is free to respond, [but] only those who meet the qualitative requirements will be considered.”

...

Boeing has an entrenched presence in India on the commercial and military side, with New Delhi ordering the company’s C-17 Globemaster III, P-8i aircraft and AH-64E Apache and CH-47 Chinook rotorcraft. The company will almost certainly pitch its Boeing 767-based KC-46 tanker to India, having now entered low-rate production for the U.S. Air Force after resolving significant development issues that had set the program back. Airbus will be looking to revive the A330 MRTT deal, which is worth $1-2 billion. The wide body tanker can double as a troop or executive transport aircraft and has long been the Indian air force’s preferred choice over Russian alternatives or a purpose-built Boeing KC-767.The A330 type is operated by Australia, France, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, the United Arab Emirates and UK. South Korea signed for the type last year.

The KC-46 is being procured by Japan, and Israel has expressed interest too. Thanks to the reset of India’s tanker acquisition, Boeing now has the time needed to enter its now fully developed KC-46A in New Delhi’s third tanker race since 2006. In August, Boeing secured U.S. Air Force contracts worth $2.8 billion for production of the first 19 operational KC-46s.

“Since the start of the program there has been strong interest from nations looking to modernize their air refueling capabilities,” Boeing said of its KC-46 in an Oct. 13 email. “Recently, with the KC-46 successfully completing the Defense Department’s Milestone C requirements, a number of potential international customers have reengaged with Boeing and we look forward to continuing our conversations with them.”

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Oct 2016 23:17

pkudva wrote:KC-46 may be as expensive as Airbus. Sure that MOF shall reject the Funding.

IL-78 certainly looks to have an Upper Hand. Frequent Cancellations are only hurting the IAF as it been a Decade since it was Last Planned for.

Jai Hind!!!

The MoD will end up with the KC-46. This is NOT about the platform. This is about the pivot to America. This is pure geopolitics. Some will call it we-are-becoming-an-American-stooge, but it is more likely we are being armed to stand against China. F-Solah, Block 70 is coming as well, with the F-35 coming right after. America is too broke to stand against China by herself, so they are arming China's neighbours as well.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 25 Oct 2016 23:24

I thought more IL-78s were done deal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Oct 2016 23:31

Saar, look at the story line here. The MoD will gladly spend 8+ billion euros for 36 Rafales + who knows how many more billions (in dollars) for shiny new F-Solah, Block 70s....but they cry hoarse that six A-330 refuellers cost too much money for the IAF?

The IL-78 has not had a fairy story episode in the IAF either. KC-46 Pegasus it is.

Pegasus Pegasus Pegasus, aaja aaja aaja
Pegasus Pegasus Pegasus, aaja aaja aaja

Aajare mere saath, yeh jagi jagi raath
Pukare thuje sun, sunade wohi dhun

Pegasus Pegasus Pegasus, aaja aaja aaja
Pegasus Pegasus Pegasus, aaja aaja aaja