China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2016 08:34

Liu wrote:J20 is confirmed to be shown in Zhuhai.

We need good quality videos taken by people with steady hands and not some blurry edited stuff that will definitely make me pass comments about the quality of "China make" cameras

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 30 Oct 2016 04:17

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:J20 is confirmed to be shown in Zhuhai.
We need good quality videos taken by people with steady hands and not some blurry edited stuff that will definitely make me pass comments about the quality of "China make" cameras

We also need the camera person to be taller than the weeds around him or her and to not be smoking any of those weeds either because of the haziness it would cause.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 30 Oct 2016 09:27

Hopefully the clearer pictures will show the pilot shown standing in front of the J20 has a shadow that behaves like every other shadow around him

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2016 11:02

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 9852879872

Take a closer look at PL-10E WVRAAM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2016 11:05

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 2938798080

Missiles and launch vehicles developed by CASIC including various types of anti-ship missiles, air-to-ground missiles, air-defense missiles.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Oct 2016 12:25

Drone swarm:

http://www.bilibili.com/video/av6899542/?zw

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 31 Oct 2016 13:48

As I read page 2 & 3 of this thread I realized that we often convert this into a baiting and bashing thread. My suggesting is that we should limit ourselves to monitoring and commenting on what is reported in the Open Source world.

I see Lui trying to defend the position of China while many other Oldies getting into a attack mode. I wonder if its required and warrants the time and effort. You all are intelligent to pick up things which matter and filter out things that don't. Not many people like to discuss failures. Open discussion of failures on a public platform requires one to be a democracy. China is not a democracy and that is because they have taken a decision not to be one. So lets filter and report facts that matter and ones which are on the border of believable and un-believable and then have a critical discussion on the same.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2016 14:11

Looks like Chinese equivalent of Brahmos Supersonic Missile

First Picture of China's New YJ-12A Anti-Ship Missile During Launch Revealed

Ahead of Airshow China 2016 due to start this week in Zuhai, the first ever picture showing a YJ-12A new generation surface launched anti-ship missile has been released. The YJ-12A is the latest supersonic anti-ship missile of the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). It was unveiled for the first time last year during the victory day parade.

The YJ-12 (YingJi meaning Eagle Strike) was designed by the Third Academy of the China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation "CASIC" (HiWING Mechanical & Electrical Technology Corporation). It is fitted with liquid-fueled ramjet (with a combined booster and combustion chamber).

Its reported speed is around Mach 2 if launched from a low altitude and up to Mach 3.2 if launched from high altitude. According to Chinese sources, the YJ-12 maximum range is around 380 kilometers (the distance varies depending on launch altitude) and its terminal attack altitude is 15 meters. Finally the missile would be about 6,3 meters long with a diameter below 0,756 meters.

As we reported earlier, the PLAN is currently reffiting its Project 956E Sovremennyy destroyers with the YJ-12A. The future Type 055 Destroyer may be fitted with this anti-ship missile as well.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 31 Oct 2016 14:22

Anyone going to Zhuhai? What's the entry fees and structure like?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2016 14:37

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 6553658368

J-10B's Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (DSI)

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 Oct 2016 14:49

Reminds me of F16 with DSI tech Demo plan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2016 15:05

pushkar.bhat wrote:Open discussion of failures on a public platform requires one to be a democracy.

If you re-examine your own statement, you are saying that non democracies will not discuss failures openly. That means they will discuss successes only. Are you suggesting that we propagate possible lies/misinformation and accept the hiding of failures without expressing doubts and accept everything else as a success because we are intelligent/old/experienced and China is not a democracy?

Unless I have misunderstood your reasoning I am unconvinced.

pushkar.bhat · Post by **pushkar.bhat** » 31 Oct 2016 19:13

shiv wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote:Open discussion of failures on a public platform requires one to be a democracy.
If you re-examine your own statement, you are saying that non democracies will not discuss failures openly. That means they will discuss successes only. Are you suggesting that we propagate possible lies/misinformation and accept the hiding of failures without expressing doubts and accept everything else as a success because we are intelligent/old/experienced and China is not a democracy?

Unless I have misunderstood your reasoning I am unconvinced.

Siva, yes you got the first part right. The open discussion of failure is often seen as dissent against the establishment in non-democratic systems. There are costs of dissident or non-conformist behavior. Without derailing the thread I want to give the example of Stalinist USSR. It required a Khrushchev to denounce Stalin. Having said that I didn't say that they discuss success only but that candid discussion may come at a cost.

By the way I am ok with you agreeing to disagree. We happen to live in a democracy.

chola · Post by **chola** » 31 Oct 2016 19:29

What are all those drones powered by? My bet is they are powered by smaller russian engines.

Drones are not very sophisticated technology (you can buy made-in-china drones at Walmart's toys aisle.)

But anything that's useful runs up against the same issue on manned aircraft, an engine with enough TWR to carry an useful load.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 31 Oct 2016 21:02

chola wrote:What are all those drones powered by? My bet is they are powered by smaller russian engines.

Drones are not very sophisticated technology (you can buy made-in-china drones at Walmart's toys aisle.)

But anything that's useful runs up against the same issue on manned aircraft, an engine with enough TWR to carry an useful load.

well, there are many kinds of engines (turban-fan,turbanjet,scamjet，propeller..etc..)

long long ago(manybe after soviet helped China set up its militray industry-complex in 1950s), CHina could manufacture most kinds of engines(turbanjet,propeller,scamjet..etc),except turbanfans.

however, CHina failed to develop turbanfans until ws10a.and Turbanfan is the most popular engines for aircrafts nowdays.

those drones might be powered by turbanjet or propellers,because long voyage is more important to drone than highspeed cruzing( propeller is more fuel-saving than turbanfan)

BTW, all hypersonic crafts are powerd by scamjets.....CHina's rapid developement of hypersonic crafts proves that China-made scamjet engine might be as advancing as yankees.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 31 Oct 2016 21:28

The core tech of drones is not frame/engine/weapon,but long~distance communication/control tech.(otherwise drones would be out of control or hijacked easily)

And long distance communication/control tech is usualy based on space assets and adcanced communication tech.

Either USA or China has active and massive space assets and pioneering communication tech( What huawei is best at is not smartphone,but communication infrastructures)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Nov 2016 08:27

J-20 video
Useless videography/Chinese camera operated by a dunce?
https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 9035296769

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Nov 2016 09:12

Austin wrote:Looks like Chinese equivalent of Brahmos Supersonic Missile

First Picture of China's New YJ-12A Anti-Ship Missile During Launch Revealed

It's actually looks like a close copy of Taiwan's Hsiang Feng III HF3, minus the booster placement.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 01 Nov 2016 09:26

<POOF>

Admin note: dont repost the same large photos of the original post. And no more trolling

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Nov 2016 09:32

-- self deleted---

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Nov 2016 10:29

Dont know if this thread was following the construction of Typ001A?

From wiki, the timeline from keel laying to floatout seem to be around 18 months:

On 27 July 2015, a report of the China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation stated that the corporation is "go well with key projects represented by aircraft carrier and nuclear submarine", which is the first time that the builder mentioned the construction of the Type 001A class.[3]

On 31 December 2015, a spokesman of the Chinese Ministry of Defense confirmed that China is designing and building its second aircraft carrier.[2]

On 26 September 2016, pictures of the Type-001A carrier under construction was leaked on the web. The pictures showes the carrier being in its finale stage of assembling.[4]

The Type001A carrier's blocks seem to have been assembled at the pace of a commercial vessel. If this was done with attention to modular blocks with plumbing, cabling et al, then it is of note to a lot of nations.

A few days after the official confirmation, December 2015, The china-defense.blogspot posted initial hull blocks, with blurring of the cabling/duct of outer walls. Probably officially sanctioned photo

Completed hull without the superstructure/island

Forward part of the large size, Soviet-era superstructure gets integrated

Aft part of super structure gets integrated

Closeup of the Varyag style superstructure

Distant shot with the aft radar array integrated

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Nov 2016 11:38

X-posted in Single-engine fighter td.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... tary-might

China unveils J-20 stealth jet fighter in show of military might

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Nov 2016 12:19

Video:

So far the best footage of J-20s' debuting flight

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 2051102720

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Nov 2016 16:11

hnair wrote:Dont know if this thread was following the construction of Typ001A?

From wiki, the timeline from keel laying to floatout seem to be around 18 months:

I began following this after it popped up out of nowhere around six months ago on Popular Science.

It's a complete knockoff of the Kuz, Varyag down to the smallest detail so that undoubtedly helped with the fast build. The chini ability to construct things with speed is impressive nonetheless.

Liu · Post by **Liu** » 01 Nov 2016 16:35

chola wrote:
hnair wrote:Dont know if this thread was following the construction of Typ001A?

From wiki, the timeline from keel laying to floatout seem to be around 18 months:
I began following this after it popped up out of nowhere around six months ago on Popular Science.

It's a complete knockoff of the Kuz, Varyag down to the smallest detail so that undoubtedly helped with the fast build. The chini ability to construct things with speed is impressive nonetheless.

its internal structure is revised,thus It can hold much more fighters than varyag.

Varyag can hold Only 30 crafts while oo1a might hold 50 orSo ones.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Nov 2016 18:36

More on the J-20 here

http://m.wsj.net/video/20161101/110116c ... ec664k.mp4

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 01 Nov 2016 20:48

TOI says pakis already in talks with chinese for export version of J-20 . pretty fast. Even a sqdrn will be great boost for pakis as they do not have to pay and will get hands on Gen 5 tech

kit · Post by **kit** » 01 Nov 2016 21:24

parshuram wrote:TOI says pakis already in talks with chinese for export version of J-20 . pretty fast. Even a sqdrn will be great boost for pakis as they do not have to pay and will get hands on Gen 5 tech

how will they pay for it

RohitAM · Post by **RohitAM** » 01 Nov 2016 21:36

More than paying for it, how will the Pakis manage the operational expenses for these jets?? These are twin-engined jets, and unless the Chinese are able to refine the W-15 enough to not be as fuel guzzling as the RD-33 based W-10, it is gonna be a major problem for them. Let's not forget that they're having issues flying even their single-engined jets for normal training schedules.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 01 Nov 2016 21:49

kit wrote:
parshuram wrote:TOI says pakis already in talks with chinese for export version of J-20 . pretty fast. Even a sqdrn will be great boost for pakis as they do not have to pay and will get hands on Gen 5 tech
how will they pay for it

Do they have to pay? Why would China not just give it to them to mess with us?

RohitAM wrote:More than paying for it, how will the Pakis manage the operational expenses for these jets?? These are twin-engined jets, and unless the Chinese are able to refine the W-15 enough to not be as fuel guzzling as the RD-33 based W-10, it is gonna be a major problem for them. Let's not forget that they're having issues flying even their single-engined jets for normal training schedules.

The Pakis are very resilient. They will find a way to make this work if China agrees to its side of the bargain. It may take a few years, but they will manage.

The real question is what will we do about it? Is our entire strategy to wait and hope that Pakis fail in their efforts? Or do we have a more robust fix?

The J-20 has its flaws, but once you have an airplane on hand and in numbers, the fixes for its flaws will come in the form of Mk-1, Mk-2 etc. The J-10 is a good example of in the incremental changes that are enhancing its capabilities every time we see a new picture of them. The Chinese are leapfrogging ahead while we fumble and stumble even to bring the LCA to a single squadron (and/or prevent its scrapping altogether).

-Vivek

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Nov 2016 22:17

RohitAM wrote:More than paying for it, how will the Pakis manage the operational expenses for these jets?? These are twin-engined jets, and unless the Chinese are able to refine the W-15 enough to not be as fuel guzzling as the RD-33 based W-10, it is gonna be a major problem for them. Let's not forget that they're having issues flying even their single-engined jets for normal training schedules.

The J-20 is still dependent on Russian AL-31 engines, not that it will make any difference with the bakis since the russkie mercenaries already supply the RD-93 to the JF-17 Blunder. The smokey RD-93 is derived from the RF-33 but not the WS-10.

The WS-10 is a AL -31 class engine cloned from the CMF56 which itself is the civilian core derived from F4O4.

Not that engines will really matter here. The bakis will not be able To Pay for the J-20 just like they weren't able to Pay for the J-10. What 5th gen they will get will be the J-31 which like the JF-17 is an inferior craft that the chini airforce doesn't want.

RohitAM · Post by **RohitAM** » 01 Nov 2016 22:25

The Pakis don't have to pay for the aircrafts themselves - they'll just get a couple of squadrons worth for free, regardless of it being the J-20 or the J-31. The problem for the Chinese is that they don't have funding to spare to fund the operations of these aircrafts once they are in the PAF. The Pakis can get training in China itself for the initial training and familiarization on the type, but a couple of weeks of initial training does not in any way equate to continuous training based on DACTE tactics and operational evolution. Having a superior aircraft is one thing, being able to put it up in the air with competently trained pilots against a fully networked numerically superior opponent with the ability to monitor your entire airspace while loitering on his side of the border during wartime is quite another.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Nov 2016 23:20

Austin wrote:Video:

So far the best footage of J-20s' debuting flight

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 2051102720

Sedate display.

12 seconds to roll off the top at the end. Maybe 3-4 G

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 02 Nov 2016 00:09

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:Video:

So far the best footage of J-20s' debuting flight

https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/7 ... 2051102720
Sedate display.

12 seconds to roll off the top at the end. Maybe 3-4 G

Yea, a pretty tame performance. Here's the same video in 4K:

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 02 Nov 2016 00:09

Vivek ji, if things really move fast in paki and chinese marriage of J -20 . What options does IAF really have practically speaking. F-22 's if Unkil indeed gets ready to sell us or JSF? T -50 Is distant far i beleive ....

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 02 Nov 2016 00:15

chola wrote:
RohitAM wrote:More than paying for it, how will the Pakis manage the operational expenses for these jets?? These are twin-engined jets, and unless the Chinese are able to refine the W-15 enough to not be as fuel guzzling as the RD-33 based W-10, it is gonna be a major problem for them. Let's not forget that they're having issues flying even their single-engined jets for normal training schedules.

The J-20 is still dependent on Russian AL-31 engines, not that it will make any difference with the bakis since the russkie mercenaries already supply the RD-93 to the JF-17 Blunder. The smokey RD-93 is derived from the RF-33 but not the WS-10.

The WS-10 is a AL -31 class engine cloned from the CMF56 which itself is the civilian core derived from F4O4.

Not that engines will really matter here. The bakis will not be able To Pay for the J-20 just like they weren't able to Pay for the J-10. What 5th gen they will get will be the J-31 which like the JF-17 is an inferior craft that the chini airforce doesn't want.

Right, the J-20 will be expensive, and it's the top of the line fighter for the PLA, it won't be sold to Pakistan even if they can afford it, which they can't, and China can't afford to give them out for free.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 02 Nov 2016 00:20

Sid wrote:
Austin wrote:Looks like Chinese equivalent of Brahmos Supersonic Missile

First Picture of China's New YJ-12A Anti-Ship Missile During Launch Revealed

It's actually looks like a close copy of Taiwan's Hsiang Feng III HF3, minus the booster placement.

Right, the YJ-12 has been around for a while now, supposedly the picture in Austin's post is one of CM-302, the export variant of the YJ-12.

The Chinese Brahmos is the CX-1, even the specs are quite similar: 8850mm length, 3500kg weight, 280km range, speed Mach 2.2-3.0

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Nov 2016 08:58

Some random comments that may not mean much..

When a plane turns on its side i.e rolls 90 deg there is a loss of lift that causes the plane to lose altitude - in a movement that I have heard described as a side slip. In airshows I have observed pilots in tight turns prevent or reduce loss of altitude by either maintaining a slight "yaw" - so that tailfin lift, which will push the nose down gets compensated by yawing the nose.

For some reason the J-20 at 18 and 34 seconds does not do that - and in the 90 degree roll attitude the nose can be seen to drop and the plane loses altitude. I am not reaching any conclusions about this - the pilot may merely have wanted to stay close to the ground and crowd. But a tight turn in a combat situation will also cause a loss of altitude like this unless compensated by a yaw - and that requires extra power. Lack of power causing loss of altitude was exactly what the HF-24 was accused of in turns.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2016 09:46

The more I look at J-20 and its manouvering , The more I am made to believe the purpose of J-20 is primary of Heavy Class Strike Fighter with secondary capability of an Interceptor likely in 45 T MTOW category like Mig-31.

Mostly certainly it lacks the finness , agility and manouverability of Air Superiority fighter may be they have not released the entire FBW control or it might be in intermediate state of testing and they might not want to try any thing stupid that may lead to a crash or chance of crash and bad publicity , Much like when PAK-FA was displayed for first time in public 2011 its demonstration was sedate.

J-21 looks more like an Air Superiority Fighter in Medium Class

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 02 Nov 2016 12:34

China's new swarm drones