Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

[fanne]

Very poor copy of lca video

[nirav]

Look at them vortices and the moustache and the paki.



SAME.

Normal Paki.

Thus proved, bandar is 100 % Chinese.

[shiv]

Pakistan Air Force JF-17 枭龙 Air Show China 2016

Very nice actually. Definitely influenced by Tejas shows though..

Much better videography. Nifty display. Maybe 5G turns.

[Sid]

I have never seen bunder go vertical after takeoff, it always pretends to climbs and then take a corner to run away

[shiv]

Vertical after takeoff is not such a big thing in most fighter aircraft nowadays. It just looks spectacular. JF 17 empty weight is 6500 kg and if it does an airshow take off with just 1500 kg - its total weight will be about 8000 kg which is smaller than the max afterburner thrust of 8500 kg of RD 93. So without any weapons and a light load of fuel the T/W ratio is 1 or more and a vertical climb on takeoff should be easy.

However mocking Pakis is important. If you mock them here they will read and do it next time...

[Sid]

Yup, I know on paper it's TWR is enough to pull that stunt. But seeing is believing, specially with Chinese products.

Not sure how Russian RD 93 is treating them. Hope they are getting some taste of Russian after sales support

[Indranil]

I have always loved the JF-17. It is a very practical plane. And kudos to PAF to adapting it in numbers in their airforce. They can continue to work on it and make it into a potent fighter in tranches.

[eklavya]

^^^^
Assuming you also cared for the life of the PAF pilots flying the JF-17, how would you feel if he/she were to face an attacking package that includes Su 30 MKI / Mirage 2000 / MiG-29 / Rafale? As for being deployed to attack a target in India, how would your feelings evolve?

[Rakesh]

Eklavya, there is nothing wrong in admiring a program that has the PAF's 100% support. At least the PAF believes in the Fundaar. The reality may be different - as you suggest - but the PAF believes that they have a good platform that can be progressively improved. So they don't give a fig what anyone else thinks. The same cannot be said about our own air force in which the Air Chief has gone on record in stating that it has no interest in the Mk 2.

I would feel 100% confident if the attacking package was only the Mk.1A against the JF-17. That is a turkey shoot which the IAF will win hands down. We don't need Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, MiG-29 or Rafales for that. Why use a laser when a fly swatter will do?

[Manish_Sharma]

^Since china owns porks now so I consider jf-17 indigineous platform of porkis.

I would have total respect for a pilot flying killed by Rafale, mig-29, f-16i with tears in my eyes I will salute him.

If j-17 is downed by our own home made Tejas I will do Bhangra and say "....take it you porki #%##$%@"

[eklavya]

Eklavya, there is nothing wrong in admiring a program that has the PAF's 100% support. At least the PAF believes in the Fundaar. The reality may be different - as you suggest - but the PAF believes that they have a good platform that can be progressively improved. So they don't give a fig what anyone else thinks. The same cannot be said about our own air force in which the Air Chief has gone on record in stating that it has no interest in the Mk 2.

I would feel 100% confident if the attacking package was only the Mk.1A against the JF-17. That is a turkey shoot which the IAF will win hands down. We don't need Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, MiG-29 or Rafales for that. Why use a laser when a fly swatter will do?

Rakesh, the JF-17 also has the IAF's 100% support. It will come in very handy for target practice.

Tejas Mk 1A, with an AESA radar, should also make keema nan out of the F-16 Blk 52.

Anyway, I didn't realise we were talking about Tejas on this thread? Some people want to talk about Tejas on every thread.

[Rakesh]

Happy to know the IAF supports at least one local program...even if it belongs to the PAF

[Austin]

Confirm purchase the FC-1 fighter Myanmar (JF-17)

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2234423.html

In terms of the number of aircraft procured myanmartsy declined to comment. But according to Israeli sources, which took place in January 2016, allegedly took place order 16 machines worth $ 35 million. For each fighter.

To date, the Air Force of Myanmar has 50 obsolete Chinese fighter J-7M and 30 MiG-29, and 20 and Q-5 attack aircraft. Training pilots for these aircraft carried out on Chinese jet training aircraft Nanghang K-8. The appearance of the Air Force fighter FC-1 Chinese development will facilitate its development, who have experience of piloting Chinese aircraft.

[Khalsa]

^^^^
Assuming you also cared for the life of the PAF pilots flying the JF-17, how would you feel if he/she were to face an attacking package that includes Su 30 MKI / Mirage 2000 / MiG-29 / Rafale? As for being deployed to attack a target in India, how would your feelings evolve?

This is not what I expected out of you eklavya.
Him appreciating the process adopted by the PAF does not mean he does not care about the life of the Su-30 driver.
How on earth did you manage to stitch those two ?

Remember to keep out of the 100 % hate mode. If you have it on you will be nothing just fuel for the fire.
Instead learn to tame the fire, the fire that boils the water and turns it into steam and propels an engine.

100% hate is spherical in shape and therefore consuming and without a resultant vector.


Don't hate the enemy, destroy [/b ]the enemy.

Indranil, is saying that PAF has upped the adoption of this plane at such a level that they are in the process of stripping away our capability to destroy them in 8 years. They have done this before in the 80s and early 90s before it was corrected.

Now the Pakis are repeating it again.

[Indranil]

^^^^
Assuming you also cared for the life of the PAF pilots flying the JF-17, how would you feel if he/she were to face an attacking package that includes Su 30 MKI / Mirage 2000 / MiG-29 / Rafale? As for being deployed to attack a target in India, how would your feelings evolve?

Obviously, a JF-17 cannot take on the planes that you describe in a one-to-one. But on a many-to-one scenario, I don't know. I don't believe anybody who says he knows.

I called it pragmatic from the perspective of China and Pakistan. First China. Given its know how of manufacturing and "design" know-how of J-7, they took the next logical step JF-17, i.e. a J-7 with nose mounted radar and side intakes. Avionics were made contemporary to 1990-chinese know-how. Is it a world beater: no. Was it a practical (next-logical) step for China: Yes. No multi-generation jump etc. involved. Less risks.

Now Pakistan's perspective: What else can Pakistan afford. They have got themselves an economic plane and are trying their best to fit the best avionics and weapons package they can pay for or lay their hands onto. Aerodynamically, is JF-17 not a bad plane. If you ask me objectively, it can do a pretty decent job is used gainfully. The problem with the JF-17 is not the plane, but the country operating it. If China cannot provide updated avionics and weapons, JF-17 is unlikely to get good avionics systems from elsewhere.

I personally like the fact they are manufacturing it in numbers. That is critical to develop the critical "design to manufacture" know-how that JayS beautifully explained in another thread. PLAAF have flown sub-standard fighters, taking great pride in their own planes. Today, their design and production capabilities are certainly ahead of ours. I feel no shame in complimenting them on that. I wish IAF had allowed our designs to achieve the same.

And look at what stage of development JF-17 was inducted in! The series production began before the entire envelop was even opened up! If I am not wrong it was within a couple of years of the first flight.

[Aditya_V]

^^^^
Assuming you also cared for the life of the PAF pilots flying the JF-17, how would you feel if he/she were to face an attacking package that includes Su 30 MKI / Mirage 2000 / MiG-29 / Rafale? As for being deployed to attack a target in India, how would your feelings evolve?

Obviously, a JF-17 cannot take on the planes that you describe in a one-to-one. But on a many-to-one scenario, I don't know. I don't believe anybody who says he knows.

I called it pragmatic from the perspective of China and Pakistan. First China. Given its know how of manufacturing and "design" know-how of J-7, they took the next logical step JF-17, i.e. a J-7 with nose mounted radar and side intakes. Avionics were made contemporary to 1990-chinese know-how. Is it a world beater: no. Was it a practical (next-logical) step for China: Yes. No multi-generation jump etc. involved. Less risks.

Now Pakistan's perspective: What else can Pakistan afford. They have got themselves an economic plane and are trying their best to fit the best avionics and weapons package they can pay for or lay their hands onto. Aerodynamically, is JF-17 not a bad plane. If you ask me objectively, it can do a pretty decent job is used gainfully. The problem with the JF-17 is not the plane, but the country operating it. If China cannot provide updated avionics and weapons, JF-17 is unlikely to get good avionics systems from elsewhere.

I personally like the fact they are manufacturing it in numbers. That is critical to develop the critical "design to manufacture" know-how that JayS beautifully explained in another thread. PLAAF have flown sub-standard fighters, taking great pride in their own planes. Today, their design and production capabilities are certainly ahead of ours. I feel no shame in complimenting them on that. I wish IAF had allowed our designs to achieve the same.

And look at what stage of development JF-17 was inducted in! The series production began before the entire envelop was even opened up! If I am not wrong it was within a couple of years of the first flight.

From reports the 2 confirmed crashes of JF-17 occurred when pushing the aircraft over 6G and the plane does not have any electronic limit as most its FBW is analogue. So as a fighter aircraft its use is questionable. In fact you will never the aircraft complete a full loop like Tejas in Bahrain or SU-30/ MIG 29's in IAF displays.

and remember reading a Kargil blog from a PAF officer, at that time F-16 was the only Air superiority fighter, the F-7, Mirage III/V, F-6, A-5/q-5 did not have airborne intercept radar and could get off air to air shots only within seeker range of IR missiles.

So the question is apart from H&D is the JF-17 any better than an F-7PG, as of today it does not have digital FBW, ability to carry smart bombs, BVR, high G maneuvers or a high sortie rate. Neither a bomb truck or a fighter but a hanger queen.

[Austin]

Barbaria Airforce is planning to buy JF-17

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/163018 ... -air-chief

[Manish_P]

Probably with Pakistani Pilots..

With Pakistan being a rented military this doesn't much surprise me

Well actually it does unless the reports of the fast dwindling coffers are true and sound strategy too... get ummah brothers to fly the Bandar on suicide trips against other ummah brothers.. and save the shiny American and European stuff for the real deal

[shiv]

Barbaria Airforce is planning to buy JF-17

https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/163018 ... -air-chief

In the last 12 hours i have heard that Barbaria and Myanmar are going to buy it. Add to that the Sri Lankan AF and Nigerian AF. I am seeing too many reports of who is going to buy. But no images in the colours of the buyer nation yet

[Mihir]

I have always loved the JF-17. It is a very practical plane. And kudos to PAF to adapting it in numbers in their airforce. They can continue to work on it and make it into a potent fighter in tranches.

+1

We can laugh at it all we want, but it is an excellent design the suits the needs of the PAF quite well. The PAF has to be commended for wholeheartedly supporting the program and placing large orders without bellyaching over minor shortfalls in performance.

[Bheeshma]

They did not have any other choice. And it is never going to evolve into a true 4.5 gen or anything. Like the old Mirage-3/5's they need something to make up the numbers..thats JF-17's USP.

[Mihir]

What is a "true" 4.5 gen? If they can upgrade it to include an AESA radar, a Chinese/European designator pod, an EW pod, it should be capable enough for the next ten years or so. I wouldn't be surprised to see periodic avionics upgrades courtesy Chinese investments in their own programs either.

If the MiG-21 that first flew in 1959 could perform well enough in 2001, there's no reason why the JF-17 couldn't follow a similar path.

[Khalsa]

I have always loved the JF-17. It is a very practical plane. And kudos to PAF to adapting it in numbers in their airforce. They can continue to work on it and make it into a potent fighter in tranches.

+1

We can laugh at it all we want, but it is an excellent design the suits the needs of the PAF quite well. The PAF has to be commended for wholeheartedly supporting the program and placing large orders without bellyaching over minor shortfalls in performance.

Yeah .... here we go.

This is the beginning of the path.
Adopt / Learn / Improvise / Evolve / Produce
Repeat

[Rakesh]

Pakistan can’t expect to be welcomed into NSG due to procurement record
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=39059

[shiv]

We can laugh at it all we want, but it is an excellent design the suits the needs of the PAF quite well. The PAF has to be commended for wholeheartedly supporting the program and placing large orders without bellyaching over minor shortfalls in performance.

Well since it's Pakistani I prefer to laugh.

We have very little information on this aircraft. While the idea of putting side intakes on MiG 21 may be good - we don't really know how good this aircraft is in terms of maintainability, turnaround time, specs etc. We don't even know what Paki CAG is saying about it.

Under the circumstances praise cannot carry more weight than LOL

[partha]

I have not studied JF-17 in depth but do note the fact that Pakis still prefer F-16s (if someone else pays for it, of course). Why F-16 if JF-17 is so great? There were also reports of Pakis trying to buy Russian planes and even Gripen. Why not buy more of JF-17s?

[Aditya_V]

While talk of Aesa etc is ok, but the JF-17 is not even been considered by PLAAF to replace its J-7 and J-8's. J-10 numbers are in the few hundreds, J-11 and flanker family is in few hundreds and J-20 and J-31 are many years from Induction. if it was a half decent as advertised PLAAF who have taken a few hundreds.

Remember this aircraft

1) Does not have full FBW

2)Cannot complete 1 full loop

3) 2 crashes when high G maneuvers attempted and int he 1st case confirmed parachute did not open and pilot did a gravity fall to the ground, 2nd case pilot body not recovered- so don't if it was repeated again(Confidence inspiring to PAF pilots no doubt), dont know if there are other crashes which are not reported

4) Even there was great talk on SD-10 etc, the first 50 Block 1 were inducted did not have ability to fire BVR as the radar had very limited range, Block II which is supposed to have this capability is still in progress

5) In flight refueling again missing in Block I inducted, plan is to get it when block II comes

6) No pics of laser, GPS bombs, anti ship missiles, only claims of AKG 400 carrier killer- no tests of this done and whether the airframe can lift such a missile

All in all as of today the JF-17 is supposed to have the capabilities of Mig 21-Bis with future aim moving towards Bison's capabilities with refueling. It has so far been only about H&D and poking how they inducting something while LCA is in development with no details of PAF KAMRA doing anything other than screwdrivergiri for a Chinese product which the Chinese do not want.

[parshuram]

While talk of Aesa etc is ok, but the JF-17 is not even been considered by PLAAF to replace its J-7 and J-8's. J-10 numbers are in the few hundreds, J-11 and flanker family is in few hundreds and J-20 and J-31 are many years from Induction. if it was a half decent as advertised PLAAF who have taken a few hundreds.

Remember this aircraft

1) Does not have full FBW

2)Cannot complete 1 full loop

3) 2 crashes when high G maneuvers attempted and int he 1st case confirmed parachute did not open and pilot did a gravity fall to the ground, 2nd case pilot body not recovered- so don't if it was repeated again(Confidence inspiring to PAF pilots no doubt), dont know if there are other crashes which are not reported

4) Even there was great talk on SD-10 etc, the first 50 Block 1 were inducted did not have ability to fire BVR as the radar had very limited range, Block II which is supposed to have this capability is still in progress

5) In flight refueling again missing in Block I inducted, plan is to get it when block II comes

6) No pics of laser, GPS bombs, anti ship missiles, only claims of AKG 400 carrier killer- no tests of this done and whether the airframe can lift such a missile

All in all as of today the JF-17 is supposed to have the capabilities of Mig 21-Bis with future aim moving towards Bison's capabilities with refueling. It has so far been only about H&D and poking how they inducting something while LCA is in development with no details of PAF KAMRA doing anything other than screwdrivergiri for a Chinese product which the Chinese do not want.

Interesting with all this unavailable in a plane still Three Airforces are keen to Buy it. Ok it comes cheap, But Is is the only cheapest option available to them and There tiny airforces content with spending money on such a flawed platform ?

[nirav]

The Saudis if they ever buy the bandar would prove to be masters of recruiting jihadis.

Where else in the world you get air borne jihadis along with a fighter jet hain ?
half the bandars will crash in real combat pulling 6 odd Gs and the others will AoA on their targets.

All this for 20-30 million a pop is incredible.

[arun]

X Posted from the “Pakistani Role In Global Terrorism” thread.

“In an exclusive interview with VOA in Kabul, Rahmatullah Nabil, the former head of the National Directorate of Security, said Pakistan helped create a strike force called the Red Force or Red Brigade in late 2014, and that it started operating in early 2015 when international forces had mostly left and surveillance had been reduced.” :

Former Afghan Intel Chief Accuses Pakistan of Militarily Supporting Taliban

[DavidD]

I think Block II has been in service for a while now, and the 2-seater version (JF-17B) should be delivered within the year as well. The radar for Block III is ready as well. It'll be the KLJ-7A, AESA, and according to the manufacturer it'll have 1000+ 10W T/R modules. The Pakistanis need numbers to replace their obsolete fleet of J-7's etc., so they're inducting them while upgrades are being introduced instead of waiting for everything to be ready. It sounds like they're planning to retrofit the Block I and II planes with the KLJ-7A and retrofit Block I with the IFR probe as well.

http://quwa.org/2016/10/31/klj-7a-propo ... block-iii/

[rohitvats]

Eklavya, there is nothing wrong in admiring a program that has the PAF's 100% support. At least the PAF believes in the Fundaar. The reality may be different - as you suggest - but the PAF believes that they have a good platform that can be progressively improved. So they don't give a fig what anyone else thinks. The same cannot be said about our own air force in which the Air Chief has gone on record in stating that it has no interest in the Mk 2.<SNIP>

Your comparison would've been correct but for one small fact which you missed - That each and every program is conceived and guided by the Services in Pakistan. They take a call on what they require and what is the best possible option to fill the requirement.

That cannot be said of LCA - where the R&D establishment decided what the IAF should have as replacement for Mig-21 in every possible term - from level of technological sophistication to domestic R&D effort. Had the R&D establishment paid heed to what the IAF wanted, there would've been JF-17 tech level plane flying at least 7-8 years earlier. And we might have been looking at a great Tejas Mk2 version to enter service by end of this decade.

It is a matter of fact that Services throw their weight behind any weapon system once they've inducted it - it happened with Marut and will happen with Tejas as well. In case of the army, just take the example of T-90 - which army backs to hilt with all the warts ad pimples.

As for IAF not backing Tejas Mk2 - well, it is for IAF to work out whether they need that weapon system or not, no? Why this constant shoving-down-the-throat approach? Is weapon system means to an end or and end in itself?

[Aditya_V]

I think Block II has been in service for a while now, and the 2-seater version (JF-17B) should be delivered within the year as well.

OK Block II has been inducted in May 2016.

[Rishi Verma]

J-10 may be called a widower-maker? A Chinese lady mohtarma went to heaven in a J-10 crash. If Paki mohtarma goes up then does she become one of 72?

[eklavya]

^^^^
Please don't talk in crude terms about women, even if it is a Pakistani combatant.

[tsarkar]

Eklavya, there is nothing wrong in admiring a program that has the PAF's 100% support. At least the PAF believes in the Fundaar. The reality may be different - as you suggest - but the PAF believes that they have a good platform that can be progressively improved. So they don't give a fig what anyone else thinks. The same cannot be said about our own air force in which the Air Chief has gone on record in stating that it has no interest in the Mk 2.

I would feel 100% confident if the attacking package was only the Mk.1A against the JF-17. That is a turkey shoot which the IAF will win hands down. We don't need Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, MiG-29 or Rafales for that. Why use a laser when a fly swatter will do?

The JF-17 is like Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction speech. Apparently Saddam gave a WMD speech to deter Iranians/Southern Shia/Northern Kurds who combined outnumber the Sunni Iraqis but the Americans picked on it.

Similarly the Chinese & Pakistanis brag to deter as the emperor with new clothes is naked. The F-7/P/PG that they purchased in 90s are being retired. Look at the 3 JF-17 squadrons - 16 & 26 flew F-6 while 2 flew F-7. The Wopen engines TBO is a few hundred hours, and we know the life of RD-93 engine, given RD-33 two variants serve in IAF & IN.

Pakistan purchased every second or third hand hand Mirage 3 in the market and equipped it with South African missiles. No one buys new missiles for obsolete aircraft.

They're buying third hand Dutch/Belgium F-16 sold to Jordan.

They're desperate for Su-35 or Rafale - only affordability keeps them away.

These are the indicators one needs to look at.

Having said that, they've even equipped their conversion trainers with Sidewinders, so while they're not competent for an open fight, they can back stab under favourable circumstances of their choice.

[Aditya_V]

I think Trainer aircraft with sidewinders will be more to deter Mig 27, Jaguar's( that if the Mig 27 and Jaguar are not carrying thier R-77 with Radar pod or IR R-73 or Jags having their Asraam's) take on Drones or the the occasional transport aircraft. Useful in war where fighters cannot be everywhere.

[tsarkar]

Pakistani FT-5 with sidewinders were used for pop up attacks on strike fighters when they are in the weapon delivery dive and need to fly a stable hence predictable flight path to lase the target or just use the laser as a rangefinder using either their nose laser markers or LDPs.

MiG-27 used to carry R-60s in their inner wing hardpoints while Jaguars carry Magic II / ASRAAM for self defence.

The trainers and above strike fighters don't need radars to use the missile - they use the missile as a sensor. When enemy aircraft are in vicinity, they get the enemy in missile seeker field of view and activate the missile seeker and when target is locked by seeker, a tone is emitted and the pilot fires the missile. Not very sophisticated but works.

[Austin]

I think PAF will eventually buy few J-20 Squadron from China ( buy or donate ) and will also Scout the world for F-16 and upgrade them via turkey etc that will be their frontline aircraft so called tip of spear. The block 2 and block 3 J-17 will be their spear itself , they will be mass product and will get BVR/WVR stuff from China , plus host of other A2G weapons.

If they manage this then they will have some thing to defend their airspace

[Austin]

Russia Not in Talks With Pakistan on Supplies of Su-35 Jets to Pakistan - Moscow

Read more: https://en.ria.ru/military/201611141047 ... stan-su35/

"This [information] has emerged at the instigation of the Pakistanis and is not true. I suppose that the FSMTC [Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation] and [Russian state arms exporter] Rosoboronexport have already responded, there are no such negotiations," Zamir Kabulov told RIA Novosti.