Indian Military Helicopters

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

Tsarkar sahab, that is not true. You know that Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet) and has done rescue missions at 23,000 feet!!! :shock:

The transmission limits kicked in only at lower altitudes. Even then, Cheetals had better top speed, payload and range than the Cheetah because the engine itself was lighter and had better fuel efficient. However, at high altitudes the advantages were much more significant. At higher altitudes, the engine performance degrades drastically below the transmission limits and hence the performance was limited by available engine power alone. With bigger engines, Cheetals had higher payload carrying capability (90kg vs 50 kgs) at 20,000 feet compared to its predecessor. Pilots could fly in with more fuel, reaching further and higher or stay longer. It also provides significantly better control margins making operations safer (over and above the additional safety accorded by the FADEC engine).

Even the Nepalese love them.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

I have lost some of the tender files. About a year back, HAL had issued a tender for integration of 12.7 mm guns on LUH.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Prem »

भर्तृहरि ‏@WakeMe_Up
India will buy 39 additional Apache Gunships bringing the total to 61
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4102
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Neela »

Indranil wrote:I have lost some of the tender files. About a year back, HAL had issued a tender for integration of 12.7 mm guns on LUH.
My laptop crashed recently and had to switch to a new one.
On the old laptop, I had downloaded a tender from HAL/Aero Engine division from Oct/2016 which had specifications for delivery of ingots for HP Turbine sections blades for either HTFE or HTSE.
Was reading open source material on the alloy ( it started with the letters CF and was either 5 or 6 letter name)
All I can recall now is the material was first used in ~1980s, max temperature it could handle was ~1100 C and research articles on the material it came as late as 2012 ( google prominently mentions the year in the search results)
I had the feeling at that time that this alloy was widely used even today.
I cannot recall much else.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Yes, I recall that tender as well. However, I can't make qualitative assessment of the same as I am not well-read on materials used in engines. I know that the HTFE-25 and the HTSE-1200 are very practical solutions. They are not state-of-art in the materials, but they will get the work done pretty well. As you can imagine, I love these efforts. I am also waiting for Kalyani group to report what happened of their plans of building aero-engines in the country.

Meanwhile, HAL plans to build 33 LCH's per year from 2019-20 onwards.
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by JTull »

Indranil wrote: Meanwhile, HAL plans to build 33 LCH's per year from 2019-20 onwards.
Source?
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4567
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by JayS »

Cool. There are 156 (27+33+33+33+30) SP planned as per the tender.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Saw the "crocodile" LCH flying over my house today.Lucky day
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3118
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by JTull »

Thanks.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by tsarkar »

Indranil wrote:Tsarkar sahab, that is not true. You know that Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet) and has done rescue missions at 23,000 feet!!! :shock:

The transmission limits kicked in only at lower altitudes. Even then, Cheetals had better top speed, payload and range than the Cheetah because the engine itself was lighter and had better fuel efficient. However, at high altitudes the advantages were much more significant. At higher altitudes, the engine performance degrades drastically below the transmission limits and hence the performance was limited by available engine power alone. With bigger engines, Cheetals had higher payload carrying capability (90kg vs 50 kgs) at 20,000 feet compared to its predecessor. Pilots could fly in with more fuel, reaching further and higher or stay longer. It also provides significantly better control margins making operations safer (over and above the additional safety accorded by the FADEC engine).

Even the Nepalese love them.
Yes, which is why 30 Cheetal were ordered by IA for use in Siachen.

However more orders for use in plains/desert as gap fillers until LUH matured did not materialise.

HAL Barrackpore makes Cheetal & Chetak and is not running full capacity.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

Agreed. As an aside, I am big fan of the Aloutte derivatives. I don't know if a better mosquito class can be designed. I mean what else could you add or delete from that heli? The simplicity of its design makes it such a timeless beauty. With upgrades, it can be built in 2030, and still be best in class.
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 853
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

Saurav Jha had twitted:
1. A second production line for the HAL Dhruv has been set up at Kanpur.
2. Current Production rate: Over 30 a year. Last year they delivered 35 or so.

My 2 questions l, if anyone can clarify please.
Is this 2nd production line is operational ?
and how many of them are remaining on orders ?
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

India blames Ecuador for Dhruv losses
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
06 December 2016

http://www.janes.com/article/66017/indi ... hruv-losse
The Indian government has blamed Ecuador for the high loss rate of its Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Dhruv utility helicopters after the Latin American country decided to get rid of its remaining platforms.

Answering questions in parliament in late November, the Indian minister of state in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), Dr Subhash Bhamre, said that all of the four crashes of the Ecuadorian Air Force's (Fuerza Aérea Ecuatoriana: FAE) Dhruvs between October 2009 and January 2015 were found to be the fault, or to probably be the fault, of the Latin America operator, and were not down to any inherent design deficiency in the Indian-built aircraft.
Nick_S
BRFite
Posts: 533
Joined: 23 Jul 2011 16:05
Location: Abbatabad

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Nick_S »

Indranil wrote: Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet)
World Altitude record by Helicopter – 42,500Ft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_al ... Rotorcraft
tushar_m

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by tushar_m »

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

From Twitter Siachen rescue
Image
Hiten
BRFite
Posts: 1130
Joined: 21 Sep 2008 07:57
Location: Baudland
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Hiten »

HAL looking away from MBDA's Mistral-2 for the LCH & ALH-WSI

HAL To Arm Its LCH & ALH Platforms With A New Air-to-Air Missile
aame.in
HAL To Arm Its LCH & ALH Platforms With A New Air-to-Air Missile

Equipping the helicopters to engage in aerial warfighting.

Air to Air Missile For India's Light Combat Helicopter [LCH] & Advanced Light Helicopter [ALH]

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL], currently developing the Light Combat Helicopter [LCH], as well as the Advance Light Helicopter [ALH], plus its armed variant, the ALH-WSI plans to arm them with Air to Air Missiles [AAM]. Its Rotary Wing Research and Design Centre [RWR&DC] recently floated a Request For Information [RFI] seeking response from Global vendors for a suitable AAM solution.

20161231 - LCH - ALH-WSI - AAM - 03

The LCH & ALH-WSI are intended to be armed with AAM capable of hitting aerial targets at a distance of 5 km, utilising passive, fire-and-forget, heat-seeking, Infrared [IR] guidance system. Ideal for engaging other rotor-mounted adversaries, or UAV/UCAV. The chosen solid-fuel missile would need to demonstrate the ability to be targeted, by either the pilot or the Weapon System Operator [WSO], using the helicopter's Helmet-mounted Pointing System [HPS], as well as slewable Electro-Optical Sighting System [EOSS]. Each LCH & ALH-WSI is being developed to eventually hold 4 such missiles - 2 each under either of its 2 weapon stub-wing pylons. Depending on the mission requirements, the pylons can, in tandem, be mounted with land-attack Anti-Tank Guided Missiles [ATGM], unguided Rockets/bombs, or Anti-Radiation Missiles [ARM].

Interestingly, this means that, earlier reports, that HAL would be integrating the MBDA Mistral-2 with both the helicopters, may no longer hold true. This, despite both the helicopters being photographed, on various occasions, with the Mistral-2 on its pylons. The ALH has, in fact, test-fired the Mistral-2 ATAM during weapon trials. The missile's overall specifications, on paper, match that stated in the RFI's specification document. Incidentally, MBDA had announced giving a local Indian company the Work Order to develop a suitable missile launcher for mounting on the helicopters.

Three possible reasons pop up in the mind. First, the missile has not performed as desired during this year's trials. Suspect, given that the RFI was initially floated in April 2016, even before the LCH weapon trials were scheduled to begin, later, in July 2016. Second, the RFI states that the chosen missile system would need to be manufactured & maintained locally through the Transfer of Technology [ToT] route. A logical view given that, the Indian Army, Air Force & Navy would have a combined requirement of more than 300 heptrs of both types. Economy of scale, & all that. Possible disagreement may have risen on the nature & extent of ToT that the OEM is willing to part with. Thirdly, a negotiating tactics designed to strengthen India's hands. India, presently, has no on-going, indigenous, programme for developing such a short-range Air-to-Air Missile. Thus, it has to acquire one from the international market. Would be interesting to see which 1 it finally zeroes in on & why the change in preference away from the MBDA solution.

Godspeed

Also Read: Bolstering India's Coastal Defences - Navy On The Hunt For New Missiles

WSI - Weapon Systems Integration

Related Posts Plugin for WordPress, Blogger...
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

41 "early variant" Cheetahs and Chetaks to be replaced with new helicopters from the ALH "reserve stock”. This is a very pragmatic decision by IA since Ka-226s are nowhere in sight and the LUH will take at least 3-4 years to start serial production. Use the ALH for now and send them back to reserve/alternate role as the LUHs come online.

Cheetah, Chetak choppers to retire after string of crashes raise safety concerns DDMs stop this willful distortion of the headlines.
The army has firmed up plans to retire its oldest light-utility helicopters, pushing the panic button, as a string of recent crashes have blemished the safety record of the machines.

A South Block source said that the early variants of the Cheetah and Chetak fleet will be replaced by the locally-made advanced light helicopter (ALH), also known as Dhruv.

The source said the army’s aviation wing would replace 41 Cheetahs and Chetaks with new helicopters from the “ALH reserve stock” and the proposal would be sent for Cabinet committee on security approval soon.

The army and air force grounded their fleets of 280 light-utility helicopters last December, concerned if the machines were fit to fly, after three aviators were killed in a crash in West Bengal.

The Kamov-226T light utility choppers, to be built with Russia, are to replace these helicopters. However, the $1-billion programme is yet to kick off and the military may have to wait several years for the new machines. Russia will supply 60 helicopters in flyaway condition while the remaining 140 will be manufactured in India.

The manufacturing line of the ALH is quite stable and the machines are coming out at a pretty steady rate. The Kamovs will take time to come,” a senior officer said. The army operates a mix of 150 Cheetahs and Chetaks. A new line of ALH has also been commissioned at Kanpur.

The design of these helicopters is more than 50 years old and their airworthiness is being questioned after a string of mishaps. Nine personnel were killed in six accidents involving these machines during 2012-15. The Cheetahs play a crucial role in supporting the army on the Siachen glacier, one of the world’s highest battlefields, flying at more than 20,000 feet.

A group of army wives met defence minister Manohar Parrikar in 2015, demanding the helicopters be retired. HAL has licence-produced 625 Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. It no longer builds them but is responsible for their maintenance and repair, a cause for concern.

CHEQUERED PAST
November 30, 2016: A Cheetah helicopter crashes at Sukna in West Bengal, killing three officers
March 11, 2016: A Cheetah helicopter crash lands in Hoshiarpur
February 3, 2015: Army chief Gen Bipin Rawat (then a Lt Gen) survives Cheetah crash in Dimapur
October2, 2014: Three army aviators killed in Cheetah crash near Bareilly
May 23, 2012: Pilot killed in Cheetah crash at Siachen
August 18, 2010: 3 officers die in Cheetah crash in Nagaland
The Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, lifeline of troops in high-altitude areas, including the Siachen glacier, are being cleared for flying in batches by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after carrying out a comprehensive safety check.
Frankly, I can never get my head around HAL producing both the Ka-226 and the LUH. Now that it is quite sure that if they come, the deliveries would roughly start at the same time, it makes all the more sense to push Ka-226 into the "back-up" option. If LUH doesn't pan out the way it should (very unlikely but a firm deadline should be issued), then Ka-226s will be produced. Otherwise, HAL should be asked to just double the currently envisioned production rate of LUH. Give Russians other business where we can't design the machines on our own: more FGFAs, submarines, Klub missiles, regional airliner etc.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Indranil wrote:41 "early variant" Cheetahs and Chetaks to be replaced with new helicopters from the ALH "reserve stock”. This is a very pragmatic decision by IA since Ka-226s are nowhere in sight and the LUH will take at least 3-4 years to start serial production. Use the ALH for now and send them back to reserve/alternate role as the LUHs come online.


Frankly, I can never get my head around HAL producing both the Ka-226 and the LUH. Now that it is quite sure that if they come, the deliveries would roughly start at the same time, it makes all the more sense to push Ka-226 into the "back-up" option. If LUH doesn't pan out the way it should (very unlikely but a firm deadline should be issued), then Ka-226s will be produced. Otherwise, HAL should be asked to just double the currently envisioned production rate of LUH. Give Russians other business where we can't design the machines on our own: more FGFAs, submarines, Klub missiles, regional airliner etc.
Great move. We have been asking for this for a while now! Glad the IA can use these birds at some of these locations!

If there is a bird that we want to collaborate with Russians, it would be Mil-17 or Mil-38 which is the follow on with western engines.

BTW what is reserve stock? New builds hanging around not being delivered yet? or specially aged for siachen like johhny walker blue?
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

That will kill the IMRH/NMRH.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Where is that bird? Have they started on it? or will they wait for some tender to start doing it up.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

They had proceeded quite some distance till 2013. They got stuck a little bit in rolling in the requirements of all the three services into one helicopter. Thereafter, AFAIK the project has been on the back burner for a while. But now that Rudra and LCH have been certified, and LUH is in testing, they will probably get back to IMRH soon.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

I think there are two different needs. IN will need something in the 9-10 class weight and IA will need something in 13-15 ton weight. So there maybe two projects here. IA could surely use the 9-10 class weight helicopter as well, but I doubt IN could put two off AH101 class beasts on its boats. It will need something closer to NH-90 category.

So perhaps there is an IMRH and IHRH category that HAL could push for instead of one type, which doesn't satisfy anyone or it could focus on IMRH and then co build the Mi-38 which is in the IHRH category with 7000 kg payload. The Mi-38 isn't finished, it could be a starting point for our development and customization, cutting down long lead time to prototype.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

It is the other way around. IA/IAF requirements can be rolled in nicely into a bird which is around 10 Tons. IN requirements require a slightly larger heli, around 12 Tons. This is what Unnipillai sir said at Aero India 2013 in the Q&A session of his talk.
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

That number puts it between two different class of engines. RTM322s on lower side and T700 and PW127s on the other side. It will be interesting to see how HAL designs this bird. Hope they do it soon. Those Sea Kings need replacement. I hope HAL takes the design lead and hawks a few designs around.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18262
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rakesh »

Not sure if this link was posted. related to the discussion above...

HAL Medium Lift Helicopter
http://aermech.in/hal-medium-lift-helic ... ed-forces/
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 853
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

Ramp up copter production, Defence Ministry tells HAL

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 49695.html
Last edited by ashishvikas on 14 Jan 2017 01:24, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18262
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rakesh »

ashish: as much as possible, please do not post entire articles from links. Title and link is sufficient. Copyright laws are fairly stringent now. If you want to make a point, quote a portion of the article. But nothing more.
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 853
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by ashishvikas »

Rakesh wrote:ashish: as much as possible, please do not post entire articles from links. Title and link is sufficient. Copyright laws are fairly stringent now. If you want to make a point, quote a portion of the article. But nothing more.
Roger that.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

I especially love its horizontal stabilizer. I was hoping and so something this for the LUH. The endplates on LUH's horizontal stabilizer look huge.
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1987
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Atmavik »

Any news on the LCH? Last we heard was weapons integration as desired by the end user.
sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sankum »

Main cabin dimensions of IMRH should be minimum that of Mi 17 (5.37 × 2.34 × 1.80 meter)
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

I had taken photos of the first displayed "concept images" in either 2013 or 2011 Aero India. Can't recall. The agonizing part is that one hears nothing for years and years until Aero India resurfaces..
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by abhik »

I hope the Naval requirement is also kept in mind for the IMRH. IN will require 100+ of these, and a Mi17 size helicopter will probably be too big.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Thakur_B »

shiv wrote:
I had taken photos of the first displayed "concept images" in either 2013 or 2011 Aero India. Can't recall. The agonizing part is that one hears nothing for years and years until Aero India resurfaces..
Well the IMRH was effectively dead for the last 5 years. Now with LCH winding up, Rudra/Dhruv attaining maturity and LUH in flight testing, the rotor craft division can spare some manpower to the project.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

LCH winding up?
Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2911
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Design and testing winding up, if I understand what Thakur meant correctly.

If we can find out if the powerplant has been explored, then it will probably show movement soon.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8428
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Indranil »

I agree Thakur_b. LCH, LUH and Rudra were prioritized over IMRH. Now that all those designs are either in production or flight-testing, the design team has shifted focus to the IMRH. HAL did send out tenders for purchasing MAIN ROTOR WHIRL TOWER OF 10-12T CAPACITY a few months back.
Locked