'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Nov 2016 08:22

So there are these impending export orders and LM is in Christmas mood. So, it wants to transfer the line to us. Log bolte hain aur hum maan bhi lete hai.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 10 Nov 2016 10:56

hnair wrote:nonsense. When he was touring US as part of a team back in 1963 and 64 , Kalam-sahib was a very junior engineer. He had the time to learn the fundamental principles of NASA? As if, at the height of cold war, they opened the doors of their design and engineering teams to him? You are repeating the same old innuendo that claimed Kalam-sahib stole the Scout design for SLV. He came into prominence only by the 80s, after his switch to DRDO. There are others in the ISRO management chain, who did more to contribute towards what the launch vehicle scene is today, AFTER he left. And most of them has rarely set foot outside India

You are plain wrong there, he was the star of the ISRO. Entire org ran around him. He was supposed to lead that org at some point of time. Not just SLV, he was responsible for ASLV, PSLV and GSLV. LVM3 is first vehicle without Kalam's shadow

He was forced to leave ISRO since VSSC employees were surprised that he supported privatization of launch vehicle production. There was a general assembly meeting in which he unsuccessfully pushed the idea. That night, after IG learned about the incident of employee dissatisfaction, he left Trivandrum to Hyderabad. Thats some history for you

NB: He is a great man, he never mentioned this in his biographies

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 10 Nov 2016 11:31

Amit wrote: I think you mentioned it, and I agree with you. In terms of military aircraft I don't think the bottleneck is in design, I think the bottleneck is in productionising the design.

So how do you productionize the design?
By designing !!

There is concept design and there is product design. Indranil is absolutely correct that we need more designers. So a product is designed such that it is conducive to manufacture (this is called productionize)

Of course there are other steps such as supplier logistics but supplier will supply components that are also designed, and designed specifically for ease of manufacture.

(Added later:
by the way all production designers need not be / should not be aerospace engineers. They only need to understand aerospace specs and tolerances and design practices. )

You can't have a viable manufacturing operation if the design makes the assembly people assemble disassemble reassemble

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 10 Nov 2016 11:56

To me, another production line with a foreign fighter looks inevitable.

Having said that, the best course of action given the circumstances is for IAF to order 2 x squadrons for Tejas Mk1 beyond the 20+20 order now. This will multiple positive impacts - (a) lesser time pressure on Tejas Mk1A (b) cushion against delivery of fighters from the new production line. Because anyways you look at it, setting up and delivering fighters from this new production line is not going to be a very smooth affair. It will run into some of bumps Indian bureaucratic set-up is famous for.

When Tejas Mk1A gets FOC, the modifications under this iteration can be then applied to these 20+40 Tejas Mk1.

PS: Which radar will Tejas sport at FOC?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Nov 2016 12:01

All Mk1s have MMR. Mk1As will most likely have 2052s.

nits · Post by **nits** » 10 Nov 2016 12:50

Isn't it a possibility that once we have F-16 and American warplane become mainstream of IAF and with all "contacts" in place we go for F-22/35 plane for 5G planes... if that happen then post LCA --> AMCA don't have any future...

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 10 Nov 2016 15:57

F-22 is no longer in production.

Indranil wrote:So there are these impending export orders and LM is in Christmas mood. So, it wants to transfer the line to us. Log bolte hain aur hum maan bhi lete hai.

As if those export customers will be gladly willing to wait it out as the line gets transfered to India, and production steadily ramps up to create a surplus capacity for export

. Also, expect all those Middle East customers that were being held up by Obama to finally get faster deliveries of whatever they have on their wish list so those Bahrainian F-16's will likely come out of Fort Worth.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Nov 2016 17:33

A caveat for Yanqui man-u-farters.Assure India of at least export orders of (bank guaranteed) 200-300 aircraft before they even offer us their antique production lines!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Nov 2016 19:50

nits wrote:Isn't it a possibility that once we have F-16 and American warplane become mainstream of IAF and with all "contacts" in place we go for F-22/35 plane for 5G planes... if that happen then post LCA --> AMCA don't have any future...

F22 not possible. But F35 very much likely. And with F35 from bottom and FGFA coming from top, AMCA surely will face headwinds.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Nov 2016 19:57

nits wrote:Isn't it a possibility that once we have F-16 and American warplane become mainstream of IAF and with all "contacts" in place we go for F-22/35 plane for 5G planes... if that happen then post LCA --> AMCA don't have any future...

This is the classic Indian thought process. I am sure many people in industry, research, armed forces and politics feel this way - it kinda explains "us"

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Nov 2016 23:02

nachiket wrote:
JayS wrote: We'll see which company can bring 200 of any type of Jet in IAF by 2021.
Cosmo_R has peddled this fantasy here in multiple posts despite several people (including those in favor of this F-16 screwdriver-giri) pointing out that it is impossible to do.

Why is it impossible? Have you looked at LM DFW's production record? Or, Boeing's record in St Louis? True SAAB can't deliver the Gripen E before 2023-24. Ditto the F-35

36 Rafales, 32 LCAs, 100 F-16s, 32 F-18s. This is 200 and this is not my wish list, it is simply based on actions take by GoI and its statements about lines for single and twin engined fighters. The first x will be imported, the rest will progressively be indigenized.

Is that perfect? No. But it's the price we pay for no decisions over decades.

Heck, we're going to tender for assault rifles—after all the hoohah about INSAS (which I believed and wanted to).

What's the alternative? New build MiG 21s, Qatari M2Ks? Please don't say 160 SU-30s or SU-35s. What's your take?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 10 Nov 2016 23:44

It'll take 5 years from now to get the assembly up and running. Going by my calendar, that is 2021.
You'll have NADA - ZILCH - ZERO planes from any new facilities from this new tender by 2021. Hear that? NONE!

Stop downhill skiing from the "LM will produce 200 by 2021". Price paid over decades? You mean we will continue to make bad decisions to pay for those bad decisions already made? Sounds right sensible, yeah right.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Nov 2016 00:55

I think Bharat and US interests are aligning wonderfully.

F 16 = Used to Sabotage Tejas Mk1 + Mk1A + Mk2

F 35 = Used to Sabotage AMCA later

While usa will save us from two front war. As we know that we desperately need a "medium" fighter, this "medium" can be any fighter from grippen to f-18 so far as its "western". As we all know that only this "western" "medium" is going to protect Bharat from "two front war".

In case there are delays in line or problems in production then our technicians can be easily blamed for not being talented and skillful enough to absorb the advanced TFTA tech, like in case of Scorpene.

While parallely rajat pandit types will used to condemn Tejas on each and every level.

While the evangelists are waiting silently in the shadows; as soon as the production is done and payment is given to khan their can be a pressler kind of amendment to ground a third of IAF, or at least a big leverage in their hands to armtwist the govt. in seeing the things their way.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Nov 2016 05:04

It would be a great gesture to new-found friend and Godfather,Don (Standalone)Trump.Tribute from India on his assuming office,buying Yanqui antiques at a premium.Making him an offer he can't refuse!

Rammpal · Post by **Rammpal** » 11 Nov 2016 05:38

Philip wrote:It would be a great gesture to new-found friend and Godfather,Don (Standalone)Trump.Tribute from India on his assuming office,buying Yanqui antiques at a premium.Making him an offer he can't refuse!

And the offset = golf course in/near every air base

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Nov 2016 11:09

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/17594/ ... CVXJctMHqC

Well LM sure doesn't waste time. The plan seems to be...
First few direct from TX
MII to start with 12 p.a...up to 36. How many do they expect to produce anyway? 200?

Swedish delegation visiting and offering their swede dish gripen...doubt they can match Lockmart though

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Nov 2016 11:17

Manish_Sharma wrote:I think Bharat and US interests are aligning wonderfully.

F 16 = Used to Sabotage Tejas Mk1 + Mk1A + Mk2

F 35 = Used to Sabotage AMCA later

While usa will save us from two front war. As we know that we desperately need a "medium" fighter, this "medium" can be any fighter from grippen to f-18 so far as its "western". As we all know that only this "western" "medium" is going to protect Bharat from "two front war".

In case there are delays in line or problems in production then our technicians can be easily blamed for not being talented and skillful enough to absorb the advanced TFTA tech, like in case of Scorpene.

While parallely rajat pandit types will used to condemn Tejas on each and every level.

While the evangelists are waiting silently in the shadows; as soon as the production is done and payment is given to khan their can be a pressler kind of amendment to ground a third of IAF, or at least a big leverage in their hands to armtwist the govt. in seeing the things their way.

not to mention our boys doing the grunt work in some god fors aken theater like the middle east or even defending NATO!!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Nov 2016 11:42

Indranil wrote:All Mk1s have MMR. Mk1As will most likely have 2052s.

Are there any major changes planned which will impede upgrading existing Tejas Mk1 to Tejas Mk1A? Something which require that Tejas Mk1A be manufactured de novo?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Nov 2016 13:34

The only advice I can give is that with the Swedes,we will have them by the t*ts and b*lls,as they will be more beholden to us than the Yanquis.It will be the opposite case with the Yanquis.India buying upto 200 Swedish chicas will boost their further export opportunities.If they're smart,they'll offer it to us at "friendship " prices,as the Soviets used to do.Just supporting 200 Gripens for 30 years at least will be a massive market for spares,etc. If the Yanquis make a fuss about the engines,then we will know positively that they will screw us too in the future!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Nov 2016 19:19

rohitvats wrote:
Indranil wrote:All Mk1s have MMR. Mk1As will most likely have 2052s.
Are there any major changes planned which will impede upgrading existing Tejas Mk1 to Tejas Mk1A? Something which require that Tejas Mk1A be manufactured de novo?

HAL mentioned somewhere that all 20 FOC will be upgraded to MK1A. CAG report from 2015 also mentioned that the 20 FOC contract is gonna be renewed. HAL also said, if IAF wants and signes separate contract, they can upgrade 20 IOC to MK1A standard. To me, there are minimal changes in the basic aircraft from manufacturing POV. From FOC to MK1A, only some LRUs will change and some change will be in SW (Radar/SPJ/some fine tuning of FCS). I am sure they would make all the required changes to structures for heavier Radar and all, in FOC itself. Since the upgrade path is known now.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 11 Nov 2016 19:41

ks_sachin wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:I think Bharat and US interests are aligning wonderfully.

F 16 = Used to Sabotage Tejas Mk1 + Mk1A + Mk2

F 35 = Used to Sabotage AMCA later

While usa will save us from two front war. As we know that we desperately need a "medium" fighter, this "medium" can be any fighter from grippen to f-18 so far as its "western". As we all know that only this "western" "medium" is going to protect Bharat from "two front war".

In case there are delays in line or problems in production then our technicians can be easily blamed for not being talented and skillful enough to absorb the advanced TFTA tech, like in case of Scorpene.

While parallely rajat pandit types will used to condemn Tejas on each and every level.

While the evangelists are waiting silently in the shadows; as soon as the production is done and payment is given to khan their can be a pressler kind of amendment to ground a third of IAF, or at least a big leverage in their hands to armtwist the govt. in seeing the things their way.
not to mention our boys doing the grunt work in some god fors aken theater like the middle east or even defending NATO!!!!

Sounds like kejriwal type political rhetoric. Has nothing to do with topic of this thread.

If 45-year old "F-16" is used to "sabotage" LCA-Tejas "MK1, MK1A, MK2" then shame on us right?

To make your point you even made up an imaginary future MK2 version.

Instead of conspiracy theories why don't ppl make productive suggestions?

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 11 Nov 2016 19:48

Philip wrote:It would be a great gesture to new-found friend and Godfather,Don (Standalone)Trump.Tribute from India on his assuming office,buying Yanqui antiques at a premium.Making him an offer he can't refuse!

Senior member Philip resorting to trolling when not buying from Russia at a premium.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 11 Nov 2016 22:27

symontk, read carefully what I wrote, before coming up with such claims. My post was to say Kalam-sahib had zero opportunity to learn from NASA as he is accused of, based on the few months he spent touring the US and not, for you to twist that into something exactly the opposite

symontk wrote: Thats some history for you

NB: He is a great man, he never mentioned this in his biographies

And it is convenient for your version of "history". In general, writing about Ravana et al that you do, is oddly entertaining, but saying IGMDP came about because of a union meeting against privatisation in Trivandrum is pushing it.

Anyways, last on on this topic, because it is not relevant

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 11 Nov 2016 23:12

Rishi Verma wrote: To make your point you even made up an imaginary future MK2 version.

Instead of conspiracy theories why don't ppl make productive suggestions?

Oh so now Mk 2 is imaginary while grippe 'E' and block 70 is real? Wah bhai wah kya Gora Bhakti hay?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2016 23:29

Philip, The Swedish Grippen buy would be like going off on a limb which is away from the trunk of aeronautics developments.

They themselves fly with US made engines.
So it will be doubly dependent : plane-Sweden, Engine-US
So US can cut the limb any time it wants.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Nov 2016 01:08

Philip wrote:The only advice I can give is that with the Swedes,we will have them by the t*ts and b*lls,as they will be more beholden to us than the Yanquis.!

Comrade Philipovsky sir....you sound like The Donald -grabbing things here and there. But yes, this is a good point..it always helps to be richer, ahem, "they'll let you do anything," if you are.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Nov 2016 01:45

JayS wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Are there any major changes planned which will impede upgrading existing Tejas Mk1 to Tejas Mk1A? Something which require that Tejas Mk1A be manufactured de novo?
HAL mentioned somewhere that all 20 FOC will be upgraded to MK1A. CAG report from 2015 also mentioned that the 20 FOC contract is gonna be renewed. HAL also said, if IAF wants and signes separate contract, they can upgrade 20 IOC to MK1A standard. To me, there are minimal changes in the basic aircraft from manufacturing POV. From FOC to MK1A, only some LRUs will change and some change will be in SW (Radar/SPJ/some fine tuning of FCS). I am sure they would make all the required changes to structures for heavier Radar and all, in FOC itself. Since the upgrade path is known now.

True. The only thing driving the decision of whether to upgrade or not will be money. I expect all Tejas's to be fitted with the IFR, external pod, and the internal layout refined to Mk1A standards. But I don't think that they are going to throw away the MMRs before their service lives.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Nov 2016 06:27

ramana wrote:Philip, The Swedish Grippen buy would be like going off on a limb which is away from the trunk of aeronautics developments.

They themselves fly with US made engines.
So it will be doubly dependent : plane-Sweden, Engine-US
So US can cut the limb any time it wants.

Here's a list of suppliers to Gripen E
http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... _39_Gripen

Plus of course, Sweden will help us with developing an engine, an aircraft carrier and support us with their navy against the PRC. They will do this with the formidable Swedish Bikini Ski Team

https://youtu.be/pDjcvf0Q4Vk?list=RDpDjcvf0Q4Vk

D.Mahesh · Post by **D.Mahesh** » 12 Nov 2016 07:10

Cosmo_R wrote:
nachiket wrote:....

Heck, we're going to tender for assault rifles—after all the hoohah about INSAS (which I believed and wanted to).

What's the alternative? New build MiG 21s, Qatari M2Ks? Please don't say 160 SU-30s or SU-35s. What's your take?

Have you read the thread right here on the MIL forum on the INSAS?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Nov 2016 07:46

D.Mahesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:
Have you read the thread right here on the MIL forum on the INSAS?

Could you be more specific or is that the limit of your viewpoint?

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 12 Nov 2016 20:42

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2016 03:55

Phiilp, Since F16 are at end of mfg life, India should agree only at half price.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Nov 2016 04:06

India should pay only half the price for the fsolahs aircrafts and assemblies

India should be willing to pay the full price for the Engine and TOT

The end of life product should be used as an advanced trainer for IAF

Maybe only 30% to used for warfare in the eastern front.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 13 Nov 2016 05:48

svinayak wrote:
The end of life product should be used as an advanced trainer for IAF

Trainers are light aircrafts, this will be too costly to run as trainer.

It is a heavy jet and we have light Hawks as trainers.

IAF isn't saying they are short of trainers. They are short of fighter-striker aircrafts.

F-16 will consume too much fuel, it will make training expensive.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Nov 2016 08:02

svinayak: no fighter is going to come at half price. This is not Mother Teresa's Home for the Dying. This is a for-profit organization whose sole purpose is to make money for its shareholders. You can request half price, get laughed at and then you will pay full price. But you will not get a single plane without paying full price. Secondly, you will not get engine tech or any other form of ToT. What the manufacturing line is designed to is provide screwdrivergiri. That's it. You cannot put a price on intellectual property. With the US election that just passed, even if President-elect Trump wanted to provide that level of ToT, the US Congress will not let him. Since Manish_Sharma has answered about the trainer aspect, I will not comment on that.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Nov 2016 18:32

I guess it all depends on how one defines "price". If its technically acceptable or a superior proposal, Lockheed and its industry partners would have to bid with a lower price than their competitors. Does half the price mean that whosoever is selected as he lowest bid gets its bid amount slashed in half in a "take it or leave it" deal? I don't think anything like that is likely to happen with either of the teams bidding for the single engine or the twin engine deals if they are indeed floated as such.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Nov 2016 20:08

svinayak wrote:India should pay only half the price for the fsolahs aircrafts and assemblies

India should be willing to pay the full price for the Engine and TOT

The end of life product should be used as an advanced trainer for IAF

Maybe only 30% to used for warfare in the eastern front.

You know what, LM will simply scrap the line without a second thought if GOI tries to push them in corner like this. They have taken full juice out of the production line anyway and have huge business lined up in F35 for a decade to come. In half price we will get the F16 which could be used only as a trainer. Because it will not have much useful stuff under the skin to be used as fighter.

Giving TOT is decision USG will take not GE. And we can never pay enough to get key engine technology from them. I had given some numbers regarding this on some thread. Imagine on the height on coldwar, even to protect NATO missiles installed on USSR frontier, US didnt give away much to Sweden. That US will simply gift anything that matters to India just because they see us as counter weight against China is wet dreams at best. If I were US, I would be wary of China in short to medium term and be wary of India in long term. US will have to be incredibly foolish to give anything to India like Jet Engine tech.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2016 22:10

Good then. Getting half price is better.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Nov 2016 22:29

^^ Then this is what you will likely get...Lockheed Martin will not sell a Block 70 for anything less than what they consider its value to be.

This Is Lockheed's Training Plane Built With F-16 DNA
http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... -aircraft/

And then there will be a new single, double or triple engine fighter competition. The IAF will be back at square one. Then we can go for the Block 70 (at full price).

P.S. Thank You JayS and brar_w for making sense

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Nov 2016 23:39

ramana wrote:Good then. Getting half price is better.

I have met the official in 2010 who was part of the Indian team which received the LM team during inspection of the various aero industry sites in India. He said that LM exec know that the Indian aero manufacturing and scaling is still behind. The offer from LM is to bring Indian aeronautics industry to upgrade and bring it to world class standards.

India has to pay only for upgrade and mfg tech for the aero industry. India should not pay for the F16 planes but only for the engines and Tech.
The real info is that India will be lowest cost of production of most of the world class weapon system. LM cannot afford to be left behind.