Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Nov 2016 12:55

Rustom2 was tested any Challakere as per reports

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 16 Nov 2016 12:56

It was supposed to fly around 150 Kms.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 16 Nov 2016 14:01

Looks like this test from balasore will remain under the wraps. No news on any test on the east coast. HK rout is quiet too.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 17 Nov 2016 08:56

Missile Test

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Nov 2016 10:31

A Sharma wrote:Missile Test

Makes sense

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Nov 2016 11:10

^^Yeah its a shame when an ABM test "fails" because the incoming missile failed

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Nov 2016 11:27

^^ So no Nirbhay yet even with Nov ending?

aditp · Post by **aditp** » 17 Nov 2016 15:00

shiv wrote:^^Yeah its a shame when an ABM test "fails" because the incoming missile failed

But why saar? I guess the Prithvi correctly simulated the Enemy mijjile fired East to West. Didn't it?

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 17 Nov 2016 15:52

Hmm.. NOTAM for 4 hrs each for 2 days total for just Prithvi? Seems like a stretch to me.. The NOTAM had no mention of safe altitude to fly.. so a PAD/ AAD test (along with the prithvi test) could have taken place..

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Nov 2016 01:30

SR-SAM missiles in final stage, waiting for govt's nod to start production: MBDA

NEW DELHI: European missile major MBDA on Thursday said that it is waiting for the green light from India's Defence Ministry (MoD) to finalise its negotiation with the DRDO on naval air defence missile.

"SR-SAM is at very final stage, we have addressed all the topics linked to design, work share, future production, content of technology transfer (ToT)... all this has been discussed with customer, DRDO and BDL," Loic Piedevache, country head, India, MBDA group, said on the sidelines of the MBDA organised workshop on missile technologies for Indian armed forces.

"Now we need final green light from MoD to finalise our discussion and negotiation with DRDO," he added.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 19 Nov 2016 02:23

If it's ready to start production, where's the work share with DRDO?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Nov 2016 02:40

JTull wrote:If it's ready to start production, where's the work share with DRDO?

Doesn't seem to be in the development of the missile itself, but rather in the development of the system as a whole

On the partnership arrangement for the under-development missile, Loic said: "It is a partnership. DRDO is the designer of the complete system, BDL is the production agency and MBDA is a strategic partner bringing its expertise and ToT of crucial items of the SR-SAM."

On how quickly the missile can be delivered, he said: "First deliveries will start in three years after signing the contract and all the deliveries will be completed within five years."

With the MBDA having designed the missile for range longer than the required range of 15 kms, Loic, giving the rationale, said: "We realised that when SR-SAM will be manufactured in India, it will be an Indian missile and there is a very strong export potential.

"So, taking into consideration the operational requirements and export potential because there is no such missile today in the market. The design has been done to go for higher range of 40 plus km."
..

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 20 Nov 2016 09:52

Two new NAVAREA Warnings issued

INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 21 AND 23 NOV 16 FROM 0330-0630 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.25N 086-55.72E, 21-08.94N 086-52.65E, 18-39.62N 088-15.67E,
19-23.70N 089-18.63E, 21-21.78N 087-10.85E, 21-22.68N 086-56.34E
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 230730 UTC NOV 16

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL
FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 22 AND 24 NOV 16 FROM 0130-0530 UTC IN
DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 20-48.22N 087-00.88E, 19-26.77N 086-43.11E, 17-35.87N 086-54.94E,
17-36.32N 087-22.51E, 17-40.38N 087-49.78E, 19-31.58N 087-41.53E, 20-48.90N 087-09.09E (.)
2. CANCEL THIS MSG 240630 UTC NOV 16

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2016 10:45

Second chart could be target and first the interceptor.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Nov 2016 10:49

JTull wrote:If it's ready to start production, where's the work share with DRDO?

The missile is one part of the system - what is important is the network of sensors, computing and seamless integration.

Detecting the threat via Ka-31 AEW / 2248 / 2238 / Revati / Fregat radars / EO sensors, computing the significance of the threat, deciding whether to engage with LR SAM or SR SAM or AK-630 depending on max kill probability, transferring the targeting data before/after launch - these are as important as the missile which is only the visible part. The unseen part does most of the hard work.

Even a potbellied constable with .303 rifle can shoot a terrorist - what is important is identifying the hidden terrorist early on among thousands of people.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Nov 2016 13:36

If the missile is just like a bullet then India has plenty of bullets - Akash, dropped Trishul, etc. Infact ballistics is what India is best at. As per some interviews in next 2-3 years once our seeker tech gets upto mark, we won't import any new missiles. Now I see a rush to import everything before we reach that stage.

arun · Post by **arun** » 20 Nov 2016 15:38

kurup wrote:Two new NAVAREA Warnings issued

Good spot Kurup

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 20 Nov 2016 19:16

ramana wrote:Second chart could be target and first the interceptor.

Both are for different days .

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 20 Nov 2016 19:17

arun wrote:
kurup wrote:Two new NAVAREA Warnings issued
Good spot Kurup

Thanks ...

John · Post by **John** » 20 Nov 2016 19:33

SR SAM is essentially a repackaged VL MICA, not sure why we didn't go with C Dome which is Israeli replacement for barak 1 ( I assume it uses existing barak 1 launchers).

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Nov 2016 19:44

Req for Israel Short range Naval SAM is different from that of us.
Repackaged VL Mica can operate without FCR. So good that it can be piggybacked on small vessel giving several config and opportunities.
It comes with transfer for certain goods along with seeker tech, I believe.

John · Post by **John** » 20 Nov 2016 20:04

Yes it uses Active guided missiles ( don't think IR missiles are in the 40 km ranged variant) so it doesn't need FCR same as Barak-8 or Aster. However latter systems require a sophisticated tracking radar for Mid course guidance.

Don't we have already have access to Barak-8 seeker which is much newer design than Mica. Which you recall was turned down by Royal Navy in favor of ASRAAM based Sea Cepter missile.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Nov 2016 20:43

We already have access to one set of weapons that have common lineage,ie Barak-8, Python, Derby etc. Now we have access to different lineage of Seekers and their tech. Mica and Aster seekers have same genealogy.

Yes, Naval vessels, Old as well as new, that operates only 2D/3Dsurveillance radar say S-band, doesn't need X-band FCR radar for SR-SAM/N-Mica to operate, trait shared by Sea Ceptor too.

MBDA website data on Sea Ceptor:
The weapon system can be easily retrofitted into a wide range of platforms, ranging from 50m OPVs to
frigates and destroyers. Two main features provide this flexibility. Firstly, the use of “soft-launch” weapon
technology for a highly scaleable and compact launch system that can easily be installed in a number of
locations. Secondly, Sea Ceptor can be targeted from the ship’s existing surveillance radar sensors and therefore
does not require dedicated fire control radars.

John · Post by **John** » 21 Nov 2016 00:10

Kanson wrote:We already have access to one set of weapons that have common lineage,ie Barak-8, Python, Derby etc. Now we have access to different lineage of Seekers and their tech. Mica and Aster seekers have same genealogy.

Unless we plan to grab every seeker technology it doesn't make much sense. We discussed SR SAM a couple years ago and i said it will end up being repackaged VL MICA under guise of Made in India, which is exactly what it has become. VL Mica itself is over a decade old with MBDA actively promoting Sea Ceptor not former for export and new repackaged variant is not going to have much export prospect as well. Even worse MICA is an expensive missile don't be surprised if SR SAM missile rounds cost more than Barak-8 .

This deal simply likely it was carved up to promote political interests, if not we would have either gone with co-development of new system based on Sea Ceptor or would have designed a new system based on Astra.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 21 Nov 2016 12:15

Breaking news: India successfully tests nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile in Odisha

All India Radio News ‏@airnewsalerts 13s13 seconds ago
#India successfully test-fires nuclear capable #Prithvi-II missile twice in quick succession as part of user trial.

India successfully conducts twin trial of Prithvi-II missile

India today successfully test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile twice in quick succession as part of a user trial by the army from a test range at Chandipur in Odisha.

In salvo mode, the two surface-to-surface missiles which have a strike range of 350 km and are capable of carrying 500 kg to 1,000 kg of warheads were successfully test-fired in quick succession from mobile launcher from launch complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at around 9.35 AM, defence sources said.

...
The missiles were randomly chosen from the production stock and the entire launch activities were carried out by the specially formed strategic force command (SFC) and monitored by the scientists of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of training exercise, a defence scientist said.

The missile trajectory was tracked by the DRDO radars, electro-optical tracking systems and telemetry stations located along the coast of Odisha, sources said.

The downrange teams on board the ship deployed near the designated impact point in the Bay of Bengal monitored the terminal events and splashdown.
...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Nov 2016 12:53

^^^The above press release clearly talks about Prithvi-2 being held by the SFC - I have mentioned this earlier as well that contrary to popular literature, Prithvi missiles are not held by our artillery divisions.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Nov 2016 14:32

^^ Was it really a P-II test since everything and its uncle seems to get tested under the P-II name?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Nov 2016 15:22

My thoughts exactly...

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 21 Nov 2016 19:20

India in Top Gear :: Three N-Missile Tests in Three Days

AAD and Agni 1 next

srin · Post by **srin** » 21 Nov 2016 19:30

Why do we still have Prithvi's ? Especially when we have longer legged and canisterized solid-fueled Shaurya ...

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 21 Nov 2016 19:35

Another NAVAREA Warning has been issued .

INDIA EAST COAST – OFF GOPALPUR (.) CHARTS 31 352 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 26 AND 27 NOV 16 FROM 0530-0930 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 18-11.47N 085-47.16E, 18-40.21N 089-17.82E, 20-18.33N 088-42.27E, 18-34.14N 085-38.51E (.)

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 271030 UTC NOV 16

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 21 Nov 2016 20:29

^^

http://www.darrinward.com/lat-long/?id=2428722

These tests are away in sea. This is either for extended range Brahmos or K15. Seems ships from Visakhapatnam will launch weapon from close to the shores of Brahmapur and will end up ~200KM south of Kolkata.

Main points -

1> Recently we have been focusing only on short range, small caliber weapons. No strategic weapon tests.
2> All these test seems too close to BD and Burma shorelines. They can be managed away from these country borders, towards A&N Islands.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2016 22:02

sum wrote:^^ Was it really a P-II test since everything and its uncle seems to get tested under the P-II name?

They said it was salvo fire by SFC of inventory of PII missiles.
Salvo fire is used for same target two payloads in quick succession.
SFC is serious.

BTW, PII is the longer range vehicle.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Nov 2016 23:17

John sir,

I don't know how getting VL-Mica five years from now is beneficial for India. Thankfully, some desi QRSAM/SRSAMs are in the works.

I am guessing that this is based on the current Astra missile with additional nose strakes.

We are also coming up with a Meteor equivalent using Astra Mk2 airframe. Although the setup used below is only for testing, one does wonder what it would take to integrate this system into a SRSAM system.

Indranil wrote:More details of the SFDR missile (desi Meteor/R-77M-PD/RVV-AE-PD) being developed at DRDL from the tender for Manufacturing And Supply Of Ground Launcher.

1. SFDR is an Air to Air class of missile working on booster-ram jet sustainer propulsion system.
2. It is a technology demonstration vehicle to prove various technologies like: controlled ram jet propulsion system, chin mounted air intakes, nozzle less booster and boron based propellant with high burn rate.
3. The base line design for the SFDR vehicle is ASTRA missile.
4. The missile is required to be launched from pylon of the wing of aircraft which is underslung.

John · Post by **John** » 22 Nov 2016 02:10

We are also coming up with a Meteor equivalent using Astra Mk2 airframe. Although the setup used below is only for testing, one does wonder what it would take to integrate this system into a SRSAM system.

Thanks Indranil that's my point, considering in all likely they won't be inducted before 2025 with usual delays. At which point they will replace all Barak-1, we are look at this system remaining in service well into 2040 only then we are looking at domestic replacement for this from Navy's standpoint.

I don't think VL MICA launcher can carry a missile the size of Astra Mk2 (Barak-8 launchers in other hand might be able to). Keep mind Barak-8 system can technically also be fitted into even 400 ton missile boats (Israel is fitting them on Saar 4.5) and guided using EL/M-2238. IMO this system is bit redundant would be better off developing an indigenous RAM type system or gun missile hybrid to replace the aging Ak-630.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Nov 2016 11:43

http://www.oneindia.com/india/india-suc ... 69244.html
India successfully test-fires n-capable Agni-I ballistic missile

Bhubaneswar, Nov 22: India on Tuesday successfully test fired indigenously built nuclear-capable intermediate range Agni-I ballistic missile from Odisha coast. Agni-I was launched from LC-IV in the Adbul Kalam Island in full operational configuration on Tuesday.India on Monday successfully test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Prithvi-II missile was successfully test fired on from a test range at Chandipur in Odisha

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 22 Nov 2016 12:20

MICA has two unique capabilities -

1. Mid body mounted motor that along with control surfaces and TVC allows great Bank to Turn and Skid to Turn capabilities. This is not available in any other sea based SAMs like ESSM, RAM etc

2. IIR seeker that works great at sea. This is not available anywhere except RAM.

More than missile speed and range, missile maneuverability and probability of kill are important.

We anyways have state of the art Barak-1 but I'm impressed by IN's willingness to wait for SR-SAM for Type 15A & Type 28

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 22 Nov 2016 13:42

Is this Agni-1 750 Km missile now ? I thought it was Agni-2 which was a shorter ranged missile derived by removing one stage from longer ranged Agni-1.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Nov 2016 13:49

jamwal wrote:Is this Agni-1 750 Km missile now ? I thought it was Agni-2 which was a shorter ranged missile derived by removing one stage from longer ranged Agni-1.

Nope, A-I was is an A-II with only the Second stage removed. The original Agni missile was a liquid fueled missile fired in late 1980's, after which all tests were stopped due to international pressure, in 1999 post Pokran, Agni -II missile was tested with 2000 Km range.

Then the Govt decided Prithvi being Liquid fueled and short legged was not an ideal candidate for our Nuclear deterrence with respect to Pakistan and Agni -II was too much of Long ranged missile to Target main areas of Pakistan. Agni-II was initially a deterrent against China. In Jan 2002 during operation Parakram, a new missile which had the same First stage of the A-II was tested, it was rechristened Agni I with a claimed range of 700KM

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Nov 2016 06:03

https://sputniknews.com/military/201611 ... c-missile/

Will India’s membership of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) make a difference to the fourth test of a sub-sonic missile? Indigenous technology has so far led to two failures and one partial success.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — Has India’s recent membership of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) made a difference in the indigenously designed and developed long range sub-sonic cruise missile ‘Nirbhay’? © AP PHOTO/ India Tests Twin-Engine Nuclear-Capable Missile India has to depend on indigenous technology so far because it was not a member of MTCR. This led to two failures and one partial success. The missile has recently undergone changes and Indian scientists are geared for a fourth test in December this year. “A low-flight trial (Of Nirbhaya) will be held next month. This will be followed by two more flights. Work on the air variant is on,” said Aeronautical Development Establishment Director M V K V Prasad. India’s Defense Ministry had claimed success in some operations that the missile had performed during its last test lasting over 11 minutes. “DRDO needs to get over the critical challenges experienced in stability of the missile in flight over long range which has led to abortion of the mission twice so far,” defense analyst Brigadier Rahul Bhonsle (retired) said. India had sanctioned the project in 2010 with plans to complete it after three years. Later on, Government had extended the date of completion and adds extra cost to the project. Of late, it was speculated that plans to extend the range of Indo-Russian BrahMos missile may sink the Nirbhay project. “Technically speaking a BrahMos with extended range and Nirbhay are two separate projects by different agencies. Thus the move to extend the range of BrahMos should not impact the development of the Nirbhay. What is to be decided is do we want two sets of cruise missiles – one with a range of 600 and another 1,000 kms? Is there an operational requirement of the two categories of missiles for the armed forces and is there enough money to develop both?” asked Bhonsle. However, the Governments wants to provide full backing to a completely indigenous project as it will give the defense planners greater autonomy in production and deployment.