Castro RIP -Cuba,what next?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Nov 2016 14:07

Fidel Castro's death marks the end of the revolutionary era that began in the 20th century in the aftermath of the Russian Revolution. Mutual suspicion after WW2 by the two opposing economic blocs led to the Cold War and the two superpowers the US and USSR fought each other through proxies across the globe in every continent.

Castro,Che,Mandela,Mao,Tito and our very own Netaji
could be classified as revolutionary leaders who took up the armed struggle to free their nations. He was as tall as any of them and his uniqueness is that despite being only 90km away from the US,he survived countless Clouseau like attempts on his life by the CIA and US agents. He also survived because he had the almost total backing of the Cuban people because as one US pres. was told by the CIA,"Castro never lies". Health services was of the highest std. and available free for everyone,far superior to what exists in the US! The fall of the USSR put paid to cheap grain,aid,etc. from the Warsaw Pact and Russia in particular.Cuba has struggled to survive ince then,but thanks to the Castro brothers' leadership has survived,a remarkable achievement.Cuba and Castro was also a great inspiration ( along with India,Yugoslavia,Egypt,Indonesia) to nations of the NAM during the Cold War.

However,Communism in its pure revolutionary form has become an extinct animal.India's Commie parties fail to realise this and have been amrginalised . Adaptation with the energy of the free market is essential for nation's to grow and provide gainful employment for the masses.China is a Commie party dictatorship which is using capitalism and a captive labour force to amass wealth and expand its military. But for smaller states in the Americas,who've suffered great inequality through vicious dictatorships like Pinochet in Chile,El Salvador,etc.,Socialism is alive and kicking.

Cuba in the last decade saw signs of a gradual thaw in its inflexibility,brought bout by Fidel and Raoul.It now has the unthinkable-relations with the US and much hope lies in a further loosening of private capital into the economy.The future of Cuba will have a dramatic effect on the nations of South and Central America,impacting upon the global geopolitical situ. The Chinese have already been making deep inroads into replacing the US as aid-givers around the globe. In the early '80s Fidel Castro handed over the gavel of leadership to Indira G of the NAM summit at Delhi,with a big hug!
Raoul Castro is still there however as Cuban pres. to continue the legacy of his more illustrious brother,but change will inevitably happen.Cuba offers India a great opportunity to engage with as a springboard to other smaller states in the region in Latin America in expanding our relations and influence as we must for the remainder of the 21st century if we are to hold our own against China.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -icon-dies

Fidel Castro, Cuba's revolutionary icon, dies aged 90 - latest news, Raul Castro and world's reaction and what does it mean for the country
Fidel Castro has died at the age of 90
Chris Graham
26 NOVEMBER 2016
Fidel Castro dies aged 90
Death was announced on state TV by President Raul Castro, his brother
Former leader to be cremated on Saturday
Leaders pay tribute to former president

Fidel Castro, a revolutionary hero - obituary
Fidel Castro, the Cuban revolutionary leader who built a communist state on the doorstep of the United States and for five decades defied US efforts to topple him, died on Friday. He was 90.

"The commander in chief of the Cuban revolution died at 22:29 hours this evening," his brother, President Raul Castro, his brother, announced with a shaking voice on national television.
He ended the announcement by shouting the revolutionary slogan: "Hasta La Victoria Siempre!" (Towards victory, always!)

Castro had been in poor health since an intestinal ailment nearly killed him in 2006.

His brother said the revolutionary leader's remains would be cremated early on Saturday, "in compliance with his expressed will."

The bearded Fidel Castro took power in a 1959 revolution and ruled Cuba for 49 years with a mix of charisma and iron will, creating a one-party state and becoming a central figure in the Cold War.

A revolutionary life

He was demonised by the United States and its allies but admired by many leftists around the world, especially socialist revolutionaries in Latin America and Africa.

Transforming Cuba from a playground for rich Americans into a symbol of resistance to Washington, Castro outlasted nine U.S. presidents in power.
He fended off a CIA-backed invasion at the Bay of Pigs in 1961 as well as countless assassination attempts.

His alliance with Moscow helped trigger the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, a 13-day showdown with the United States that brought the world the closest it has been to nuclear war.

Wearing green military fatigues and chomping on cigars for many of his years in power, Castro was famous for long, fist-pounding speeches filled with blistering rhetoric, often aimed at the United States.

At home, he swept away capitalism and won support for bringing schools and hospitals to the poor. But he also created legions of enemies and critics, concentrated among Cuban exiles in Miami who fled his rule and saw him as a ruthless tyrant.

In the end it was not the efforts of Washington and Cuban exiles nor the collapse of Soviet communism that ended his rule. Instead, illness forced him to cede power to his younger brother Raul Castro, provisionally in 2006 and definitively in 2008.

Political reaction

Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto was among the first leaders to react to the news.
"I lament the death of Fidel Castro Ruz, leader of the Cuban revolution and emblematic reference of the 20th Century," he said on Twitter.

The President of India, Pranab Mukherjee, also posted on Twitter: "Heartfelt condolences on sad demise of Cuba's revolutionary leader, former President & friend of India, Fidel Castro .

President of India ✔ @RashtrapatiBhvn
Heartfelt condolences on sad demise of Cuba's revolutionary leader, former President & friend of India, Fidel Castro #PresidentMukherjee
11:43 AM - 26 Nov 2016 · New Delhi, India

In Britain, Former Labour Cabinet minister and anti-apartheid leader Peter Hain, now Lord Hain, said: "Although responsible for indefensible human rights and free speech abuses, Castro created a society of unparalleled access to free health, education and equal opportunity despite an economically throttling USA siege.

"His troops inflicted the first defeat on South Africa's troops in Angola in 1988, a vital turning point in the struggle against apartheid."

How Havana has reacted

In the capital, the death caught many people by surprise in the early hours of the morning. In Old Havana, people gathered around their radios, listening to state-run stations play revolutionary anthems and recite facts about Castro's life.

Carlos Rodriguez, 15, was sitting in Havana's Miramar neighbourhood when he heard that Fidel Castro had died.

"Fidel? Fidel?" he said as he slapped his head with his hand in shock. "That's not what I was expecting. One always thought that he would last forever. It doesn't seem true."

"It's a tragedy," said Dayan Montalvo, a 22-year-old nurse. "We all grew up with him. I feel really hurt by the news that we just heard."

Havana student Sariel Valdespino said he was "very upset". "Whatever you want to say, he is public figure that the whole world respected and loved."

Mariela Alonso, a 45-year-old doctor, called the retired Cuban leader "the guide for our people."

"There will be no one else like him. We will feel his physical absence," she said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Nov 2016 14:15

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/ ... -own-words

A revolution is not a bed of roses': Fidel Castro in his own words
Castro gave his opinion on everything from the revolution to the US, and from giving up smoking to cutting his beard
Fidel Castro: ‘We have to stick to the facts and, simply put, the socialist camp has collapsed,’ he said in 1991.

Reuters
Saturday 26 November 2016
Fidel Castro seized power in Cuba in 1959 by overthrowing the Batista regime and transformed the country into a communist state while ruling for five decades. he died on friday night, Cuban state television announced on Saturday. He was 90.

Here are some of his more memorable quotes:

I began the revolution with 82 men. If I had to do it again, I would do it with 10 or 15 and absolute faith. It does not matter how small you are if you have faith and a plan of action.” – On the revolution in 1959

I’m not thinking of cutting my beard, because I’m accustomed to my beard and my beard means many things to my country. When we fulfill our promise of good government I will cut my beard.” – In a 1959 interview with CBS’s Edward Murrow, 30 days after the revolution.

Fidel Castro pictured on a sugar plantation in 1966.

Fidel Castro pictured on a sugar plantation in 1966. Photograph: Roberto Salas/AP
A revolution is not a bed of roses. A revolution is a struggle between the future and the past.” – Castro in 1959.

I reached the conclusion long ago that the one last sacrifice I must make for (Cuban) public health is to stop smoking. I haven’t really missed it that much.” – Castro in December 1985 upon announcing he had stopped smoking cigars.

I never saw a contradiction between the ideas that sustain me and the ideas of that symbol, of that extraordinary figure (Jesus Christ).” – Castro in 1985.

We have to stick to the facts and, simply put, the socialist camp has collapsed.” – Castro in 1991.

Castro smoking a cigar during interviews with the press during a visit of US senator Charles McGovern in Havana in 1975. Photograph: Prensa Latina/Reuters
These changes [the opening to international tourism, foreign investment, some small business and family remittances] have their social cost, because we lived in a glass case, pure asepsis, and now we are surrounded by viruses, bacteria to the point of distraction and the egoism created by the capitalist system of production.” – Castro in 1998.

One of the greatest benefits of the revolution is that even our prostitutes are college graduates.” – Castro to director Oliver Stone in 2003 documentary Comandante.

I realized that my true destiny would be the war that I was going to have with the United States.” – Castro’s opening quote in Looking for Fidel, Stone’s second documentary on the Cuban leader from 2004.

Here is a conclusion I’ve come to after many years: among all the errors we may have committed, the greatest of them all was that we believed that someone ... actually knew how to build socialism. ... Whenever they said. ‘That’s the formula,’ we thought they knew. Just as if someone is a physician.” Castro in 2005.

I’m really happy to reach 80. I never expected it, not least having a neighbor, the greatest power in the world, trying to kill me every day.” July 21, 2006 while attending a summit of Latin American presidents in Argentina.

With Pope Benedict in Havana in 2012.

With Pope Benedict in Havana in 2012. Photograph: Anonymous/AP
We are not a developed capitalist country in crisis, whose leaders are going crazy looking for solutions amidst depression, inflation, a lack of markets and unemployment; we are and we must be socialists.” – Castro writing in one of his “reflections,” or newspaper columns in 2008.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 26 Nov 2016 14:16

Castrated who?
IB4TL
Added L8er, now we know why a certain poster has unconditional love for Soviet era junk, and hatred for right wing Modi. Such people should feel lucky that their divergent and devious views are allowed in India - unfortunately.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Nov 2016 15:07

socialism has never worked and it never will work.

why should anyone work hard when the lazy lout next door get the same as the hard worker?

sic semper tyrannis

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Nov 2016 17:08

TSJones wrote:socialism has never worked and it never will work.

why should anyone work hard when the lazy lout next door get the same as the hard worker?

sic semper tyrannis

+ 1 million.

actually, all socialism is taurum excretum and a pox on their houses.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Nov 2016 18:48

Cubans in exile in Miami celebrate Castro's death many West press paint him as demon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... o-streets/

habal · Post by **habal** » 26 Nov 2016 18:55

A great man for being a thorn to the right peoples.

as they say a man is known by the enemies he keeps.
Red Salute to you sir.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Nov 2016 19:06

Fidel Castro survived 600 assassination attempts, officials say http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/12/ameri ... d=31596648

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 26 Nov 2016 20:10

habal wrote:A great man for being a thorn to the right peoples.

as they say a man is known by the enemies he keeps.

Exactly... those questioning Fidel should read up on history, of how US destroyed Cuban society making it a playground for semi-criminal southerners, and an imperialist colony. Read about Batista, and Hershey's role in running the country, reintroduction of slavery from what was then a free land. He did his bit, brilliantly.

Viva la Revolucion

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Nov 2016 20:34

another garbage of the yesteryears

good riddance

and hope his naxalite brothers feel depressed today

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Nov 2016 21:12

Like all the so called Great Leaders of this World He Did Many Good Things and Killed Many People.

May History Judge Him.

RIP Fidel Castro

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 26 Nov 2016 22:01

To Cuba or Singapore? A tale of two roads diverging http://www.atimes.com/cuba-singapore-two-roads-wood/

In 1959, the post-colonial Third World confronted its two roads, both untraveled and without signposts.

One led to Cuba under Fidel Castro whose revolutionary army had just overthrown the Caribbean island’s US-backed right-wing regime to end over a century of political turbulence and neocolonial influence.

The other, half a world away, led to Singapore which achieved peaceful independence after 140 years of British rule, paving the way for Lee Kuan Yew’s rise as the city-state’s founder.

Lee, who died at 90 last year, and Castro, who recently turned 90, were larger-than-life independence fighters who, without hesitation or irony, imposed authoritarian control on those they had just liberated. The two leaders were also ideologically opposed. Had they met in battle, Castro would have attacked Lee for selling out his people to foreign imperialists in the pursuit of wealth; Lee would have dismissed Castro as an ideological crackpot out to doom his countrymen to poverty and isolation. Both were probably correct.

Castro adopted nationalistic policies that kept Cuba hunkered deep inside the anti-US communist bunker throughout and after the Cold War. He has won the respect of both friends and enemies for surviving decades of tough US political and trade sanctions, not to mention attempts on his life. Combining austerity with support from Russia, China and Venezuela, Cuba has largely upheld its egalitarian ethos in an increasingly unequal global economy. It has retained the use of Spanish in a mostly English language-driven world.

Lee took the opposite route by embedding Singapore into the US-led order. Instead of joining the anti-West bandwagon of former colonies, he turned the Southeast Asian state into a hub for global capitalism. His government facilitated foreign domination of the economy to develop export-oriented businesses. It rejected the advice of left-leaning economists who argued for state-protected import-substitution industries. English, the language of the recently deposed colonial power, superseded Chinese, Malay and Tamil as Singapore’s main medium of communication. Instead of expelling the British, Lee sought to prolong their presence, including their military. Singapore wore its British colonial heritage with more than a tinge of pride; Cuba was desperate to wash off its American legacy.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Nov 2016 22:53

please note that while Cuba was trading economically with europe, russia, china and the rest of latin america, because of the economic trade embargo with the US, Cuba remained as poor as Old Joe's turkey.

the US must be incredibly powerful !!

or maybe socialism just plain old inhales very bad air..........

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 26 Nov 2016 23:18

Forever I have heard that commie leaders die on Friday and lo, so did Castrated. It sounded implausible at first. Then I found out that once a commie is deadski (on any day) the comrades de-gut then embalm the carcass then dress him up with smile and makeup then announce on nearest Fridin that KimJungVeryIllCastro is deadski. A tooth or bone is kept for Carl The Groucho Marx Museum for posterity. Then in Mayavatisque estyle they bus in the unwashed to line up for the "viewing". Infidel Castrated might end up like Five Famous Comrades.

I prefer the below pose.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 27 Nov 2016 05:48

There is a good discussion regarding President Castro in this comment section:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... /#comments

The actual article is simplistic, but some of the comments do a good job in examining the complexities of history. See, for instance, this one (misspellings corrected):

JEinCA says:
November 26, 2016 at 5:26 pm

"I like many Americans once believed that the Communist system and its icons like Castro were the epitome of evil. Given the hyper aggressive, murderous, neo imperialist behavior of the United States government and its allies and puppets in the post cold war era I can no longer with a straight face see the Communists and their heroes like Castro as the epitome of evil. Castro had to choose between Cuba remaining a US puppet exploited by US corporations and organized crime or partnership and alliance with the Soviet Union. Unlike many nations further from the US, Castro knew Washington would not let Havana be non aligned and Moscow would be reluctant to militarily aid a non aligned Cuba. So Castro chose partnership and alliance with Moscow which meant a communist revolution and everything that came with it. We can curse Castro all we want but is not Cuba a highly educated, truly Sovereign nation just 90 miles off the coast of the most aggressive imperialist power the world has ever known."

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 27 Nov 2016 05:54

^which was virtually propped up by funds from Russia!!

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 27 Nov 2016 10:43

Che Guevara's impressions of India, after a visit in 1959. The sensitivity of his remarks is noteworthy. Via @sjha1618 (Saurav Jha). The entire article is interesting; this is a short excerpt.

http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl2 ... 805900.htm

In this city [Kolkata] we saw a strange example of the complexity of the Indian panorama: alongside the most abject misery, the signs of an industrial development which is capable of creating products of heavy industry that we will take a long time in producing, such as locomotives; and the signs of a technical development in all the fields of research for which Indian scientists are regarded highly all over the world.

Indaruta · Post by **Indaruta** » 27 Nov 2016 11:22

Good riddance , Hell has special place reserved for him along with the likes of Stalin,Kim jong, Mao,Nehru and Gandhi.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 27 Nov 2016 12:09

Indaruta wrote:Good riddance , Hell has special place reserved for him along with the likes of Stalin,Kim jong, Mao,Nehru and Gandhi.

funny you don't name nikson, reagan..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Nov 2016 12:29

This about sums up the castro orgasm in india. good riddance!!

Paul Joseph WatsonVerified account‏@PrisonPlanet

What we leaned today: Killing political dissidents, interning gays, & being a dictator for 50 years is fine, so long as you're left wing.

RETWEETS 6,898 LIKES 9,825

5:44 AM - 26 Nov 2016

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Nov 2016 12:37

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Indaruta wrote:Good riddance , Hell has special place reserved for him along with the likes of Stalin,Kim jong, Mao,Nehru and Gandhi.
funny you don't name nikson, reagan..

And the biggest of them all, as far as India is concerned: Churchill

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Nov 2016 12:38

Nothing says "People's Revolution" like that trademark two-Rolexes-at-once thing Castro favored.

Yes, of course, a Rolex watch was always a working class symbol, back in 1963 most working people owned at least one Rolex watch, and in some cases over thirty.
After all Rolex = Communism.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Nov 2016 12:53

He outlasted 9(?) US presidents and survived hundreds od assassination attempts.How?Becos like Uncle Ho,another great revolutionary who packed off the Frogs,Yanquis and Chinese for good measure, had the support of their people,why they could never be overthrown like numerous other gents,the Yanquis own bumchums like the Shah and Marcos!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Nov 2016 13:43

^^^^^^^

Sirji, all of what you say is undoubtedly true.

He survived with the help of the soviets onlee and not on his own. He was a dictator and was all that that single word conveys. He was not a benevolent, avuncular grandfatherly type.

Any which way you slice it, a dirty commie dog remains a dirty commie dog ( with deep apologies to all canines!! ).

better dead than red.

vina · Post by **vina** » 27 Nov 2016 14:15

RIP. A great man, who liberated his country from tyranny and proxy American Colonialism.
A true patriot. A great man . A Hero! They dont make too many like him any more.
The other man I would rate him alongside him was Ho Chi Minh.
My deepest respects to him.

Despite everything "wrong" about the Soviet Union, it was a historical enterprise , and contributed to the demise of imperialism and deconolisation the world over. Soviet support and it's role in the world was immeasurable. Entire parts of Asia and Africa and Latin America(where the imperialist Monroe Doctrine held sway) would never had de colonised and been liberated but for the ability to the Soviet Union to be a pole of resistance, power and difference to the tyrannical west.

Viva La Revolucion.

Castro and Che did their bit.
I am not sure about the "lal salaam" bit. Castro too would have been preferred being non aligned, but was forced to pick sides in the cold war, and the overt American hostility and the innumerable attempts to murder him drove him to the side of the Soviets.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Nov 2016 15:05

Communism is a failed ideology but one can't deny that most major communist leaders in the world were nationalists and patriots.

India has the singular misfortune of having communists who were basically traitors/anti-nationals almost by definition. There is really no comparison between Indian communists and any other leaders of communist nations.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Nov 2016 16:10

This is an end of an era.

What he meant for Cuba? Is it fair to say that the people of Cuba are the only ones who can truly comment on it- having lived through his reign, his governance and his overbearing presence? The rest will always view him through ideologically tainted prisms.

He may not have been a complete reformer, but he was no Kim Il Sung/Kim Jong Il/Kim Jong Un either...

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 27 Nov 2016 16:41

vina wrote:RIP. A great man, who liberated his country from tyranny and proxy American Colonialism.
A true patriot. A great man . A Hero! They dont make too many like him any more.
The other man I would rate him alongside him was Ho Chi Minh.
My deepest respects to him.

Despite everything "wrong" about the Soviet Union, it was a historical enterprise , and contributed to the demise of imperialism and deconolisation the world over. Soviet support and it's role in the world was immeasurable. Entire parts of Asia and Africa and Latin America(where the imperialist Monroe Doctrine held sway) would never had de colonised and been liberated but for the ability to the Soviet Union to be a pole of resistance, power and difference to the tyrannical west.

Viva La Revolucion.

Castro and Che did their bit.

Avarachan wrote:There is a good discussion regarding President Castro in this comment section:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/ ... /#comments

The actual article is simplistic, but some of the comments do a good job in examining the complexities of history. See, for instance, this one (misspellings corrected):

yensoy wrote:
Exactly... those questioning Fidel should read up on history, of how US destroyed Cuban society making it a playground for semi-criminal southerners, and an imperialist colony. Read about Batista, and Hershey's role in running the country, reintroduction of slavery from what was then a free land. He did his bit, brilliantly.

Viva la Revolucion

Cuba is far away from India.But anyone who loves his own country would appreciate the above sentiments,particularly when a country is up against a hegemon which sees Life itself in simplistic,superficial ways and claims to be 'exceptionalist' and has a boorish sermonising narrative to understand other nations and formulate policies impinging on lives of millions even billions.

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 27 Nov 2016 16:57

habal wrote:A great man for being a thorn to the right peoples.

as they say a man is known by the enemies he keeps.
Red Salute to you sir.

Philip wrote:He outlasted 9(?) US presidents and survived hundreds od assassination attempts.How?Becos like Uncle Ho,another great revolutionary who packed off the Frogs,Yanquis and Chinese for good measure, had the support of their people,why they could never be overthrown like numerous other gents,the Yanquis own bumchums like the Shah and Marcos!

Today,India and US are in the cusp of a great relationship but it was very different in the 60s.The Russian revolution and the mantle of leadership of "West" had transformed the US to a conservative polity with more than a strain of reactionary worldview.

habal sir and philip sirs posts reflect those 'ancient' perspectives.just to remind.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Nov 2016 19:03

History has a way of repeating itself.China is poised to replace the US as global hegemon.Modi is trying out his own revolution in India.As an arch-capatalist remarked about demonitisation at one of my clubs,"he's turning us into Communists,giving us only 2000 bucks at ATMs!".

Modi's war against black money should really be
seen as a war against corruption.Cleansing the system.That's whst Castro did decades ago!

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 27 Nov 2016 21:05

chetak wrote:He survived with the help of the soviets onlee and not on his own. He was a dictator and was all that that single word conveys. He was not a benevolent, avuncular grandfatherly type.

Any which way you slice it, a dirty commie dog remains a dirty commie dog ( with deep apologies to all canines!! ).
better dead than red.

Easy for you to say that from wherever you are.

Castro had to maintain a tight leash on the runnings of the country because of the overt belligerence of our new friend the USA. Would USA have brought lovely fresh-smelling democracy to Cuba? No bloody way. Cuba would have become a Haiti. Instead Castro used his powers to ensure his people were literate, did not starve, and did not kill each other. Could he have done things differently? If he were located about 8000 km to the North-East, yes he likely would have.

Castro was first and foremost a nationalist; communism was a choice he couldn't have avoided.

Soviets were terrible to their own people and to their close friends, but they were good to the developing world.
Americans were terrible to the developing world, but great to their own people and close friends (and you had to be white, rich or both to be a close friend, no exceptions).

The world has moved on. We are dealing with Americans from a vastly different position, as their own racism has ebbed, not counting the huge number of Indian-Americans in the US administration. It was very different 40 years ago.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Nov 2016 21:18

yensoy wrote:
The world has moved on. We are dealing with Americans from a vastly different position, as their own racism has ebbed, not counting the huge number of Indian-Americans in the US administration. It was very different 40 years ago.

The problem that India faced with America in the 40s and 50s is that the Americans virtually outsourced their India desk to the malicious Brits who spared no efforts to undermine and spite us. If they had dealt with us directly the same way that they did with Japan or Korea or other Asian countries we could have had a genuine shot at a good relationship - not that they would have done a great deal for us, but at least we would have been less socialist. It's easy to say that people like Nehru or Indira should have done this or that, but while they made a great deal of mistakes, they managed to navigate us through a very treacherous environment with problems and pressures that perhaps we cannot fully appreciate today.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Nov 2016 21:34

Yep ,Lyndon B (for b*stard)Johnson made us beg for every shipment of PL-480 grain which also brought the desdly parthenium weed to India.
The US refused to treat us as Non-Aligned,fed the Pakis with aid,arms and diplomatic support galore,
labelling us as Soviet lackeys.It is to Mrs.G's credit that despite the intimate relationship we had with the Soviets they never even had the equiv of a logistic/CISMOA agreement let alone a naval base!

Castro's survival against such odds is nothing short of a miracle.Look how the US in the last 15 years has militarily intervened all over the ME ,Afghanistan,Libya,etc.,but why not Cuba?
For one the deal between JFK and Kruschev,resulting in the US having to get rid of Castro by covert means.

Secondly,any US invasion would've seen millions of Cubans fighting the US invasion forces in guerilla warfare apart from Cuba's well trained,battle hardened regular forces, resulting in an even greater fiasco than the Bay of Pigs disaster ,plus the humiliation and debacle in Vietnam was an open raw wound that has still not fully healed.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 27 Nov 2016 21:43

This commie worship needs to end now. Last I checked USA practically invented everything the world is using. From airplanes to internet.

It's easy to sit in the slums of Mumbai and type Lyndon B (B for bast*rd) Johnson. Another to say it to any American because they kick butt. Communism is defeated fair and square. No need to shed tears on Right Wing Hindu Nationalist Forum. P is for pathetic. Trump Zindabaad, Modi Zindabaad, Down with Castrated Castro, Down with godless Communists C for Chu*tias

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 27 Nov 2016 22:05

Bart S wrote:The problem that India faced with America in the 40s and 50s is that the Americans virtually outsourced their India desk to the malicious Brits who spared no efforts to undermine and spite us. If they had dealt with us directly the same way that they did with Japan or Korea or other Asian countries we could have had a genuine shot at a good relationship - not that they would have done a great deal for us, but at least we would have been less socialist. It's easy to say that people like Nehru or Indira should have done this or that, but while they made a great deal of mistakes, they managed to navigate us through a very treacherous environment with problems and pressures that perhaps we cannot fully appreciate today.

"Oh these guys were the earlier masters, so they know how to deal with the natives" kind of racism, yes.

US entered Korea during the Korean war. Guess what, India did take the American side during this war - I have actually seen a monument to this war in a US base with the Indian flag as part of the alliance - see this http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/loca ... 56287.html. Agree with your comments on Nehru/Indira who played a delicate game reasonably well with rotten cards.

Rishi Verma wrote:This commie worship needs to end now. Last I checked USA practically invented everything the world is using. From airplanes to internet.

It's easy to sit in the slums of Mumbai and type Lyndon B (B for bast*rd) Johnson. Another to say it to any American because they kick butt. Communism is defeated fair and square. <don't quite understand, so trimming> Down with godless Communists C for Chu*tias

You are under the mistaken notion that sucking up to the Americans will make them consider you equal to a gora. It doesn't work that way. You will be used and discarded like any number of other American stooges during the past 50 years. You need to come in from a position of strength.

Only an imbecile will kick the ladder they climbed on, and yes we did use the "Chu*tia Commie" ladder to get where we got to; and we also used the American ladder when we could. We didn't become communist, did we? We stayed true to our ethos, benefited from the delicate balance (and also paid the price for things like the US encouragement of Pakis).

Not knowing more about you, I can only guess that you may be from a different generation than me.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Nov 2016 22:33

Rishi Verma wrote:This commie worship needs to end now. Last I checked USA practically invented everything the world is using. From airplanes to internet.

It's easy to sit in the slums of Mumbai and type Lyndon B (B for bast*rd) Johnson. Another to say it to any American because they kick butt. Communism is defeated fair and square. No need to shed tears on Right Wing Hindu Nationalist Forum. P is for pathetic. Trump Zindabaad, Modi Zindabaad, Down with Castrated Castro, Down with godless Communists C for Chu*tias

Boss, you have slid right to the other extreme. No nation, leader or ideology is our friend or particularly worthy of our allegiance. We need to ruthlessly pursue our national interests without any feelings of loyalty or ideological moorings. Both communist countries and capitalist countries are useful if they meet our needs.

Our citizenry seem to have a weakness for such emotions. You still see people posting stuff like America cannot be trusted and Russia is our true friend (based on stuff that happened decades ago) in response to Russia backstabbing us with Pakistan. Or the embarrassing fetish for one-sided bhaichara, cloying admiration and fawning on any Jewish/Israeli forum/article comments section while the Israelis on the same couldn't give a flying **** about India except for seeing us as a walking cash register! Unfortunately this is an affliction common among both right and left leaning people in India.

As Tagore said, our minds are not yet free, or perhaps still dealing with the effects of centuries of being messed with by invading occupiers. Our own identity and the process of self-actualization based on that identity has been weakened to the point where we rely on external entities for validation and somehow feel grateful and forever indebted to crumbs that other nations throw at us in their own self-interest. To quote a cheesy line from Sucker Punch, 'if you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything'.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 28 Nov 2016 00:00

^
Well said.

Bart S wrote: It's easy to say that people like Nehru or Indira should have done this or that, but while they made a great deal of mistakes, they managed to navigate us through a very treacherous environment with problems and pressures that perhaps we cannot fully appreciate today.

Yensoy wrote:Agree with your comments on Nehru/Indira who played a delicate game reasonably well with rotten cards.

Nehru simply bent over for the West behind closed doors - for which he was given the monikers like "Institution builder" ,"democrat par excellence","Statesman" etc by the flattering rags in the West & Briturdia.
Before praising Nehru ,one better visualize a scenario where instead of him - a Bose, a Sardar or a Tilak were the PM of India for its first 15 years.
Even commonsense duties like maintaining armed preparedness,basic education for a largely illiterate population,food security(agricultural productivity) were lost on Nehru for the sake of his showpiece domestic & diplomatic initiatives designed to put spotlight on himself while he swaggered on the world stage like a gay peacock.

In comparision IG was far more ballsy, atleast until she was pacified beginning with her post emergency term. She refused to bendover for the West, in that regard IG is the nearest to a Fidel India had, post independence.

habal · Post by **habal** » 28 Nov 2016 07:04

In 1973 Fidel Castro sent an armoured brigade to Syria. In the war against Israel there were some 3,000 Cubans on the Golan Heights front

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 28 Nov 2016 07:46

TSJones wrote:socialism has never worked and it never will work.

why should anyone work hard when the lazy lout next door get the same as the hard worker?

Does it apply to medicare and social security? Was 'new deal' socialist? Are unions socialist? Weren't capitalist industrialists keeping the cubans in virtual bondage hand in hand with dictator Batista. Was that in any way good for the people? . maybe the tyrannic thingy applies a bit??

Nothing is entirely one-sided.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 28 Nov 2016 08:40

social programs due not necessarily denote a socialist state. taxation of a capitalist state does not equate to socialism

that would make the department of defense a harbinger of socialism.

the Marine Corps is a deeply fascist socialist organization (beyond anything in Cuba) in defense of the republic. does that make the republic fascist socialist?

clearly it does not.