Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

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Karthik S
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Karthik S »

Austin wrote:India to train Vietnam air force in flying Sukhoi

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 32654.html
Expanding its outreach in China's backyard, India will train Sukhoi-30 pilots of Vietnam.

The two sides today agreed to train the pilots. This is the second major training programme after Vietnamese Navy was trained by Indian Navy in operating Russian-origin kilo-class submarines.

The agreement was signed at a meeting between Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and his Vietnamese counterpart Gen Ngo Xuan Lich on Monday in New Delhi.

Vietnam operates Sukhoi-30 MK2 while India operates the Sukhoi-30 MKI.
Indian flanker pilots will train Vietnamese flanker pilots who may fly against Chinese flanker pilots.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by JayS »

shiv wrote:
Austin wrote:
What function does grill intake louvres does , FOD ? Thanks
Being below the intakes and in direct line of dirt being thrown up from the runway I doubt it it is for FOD. But I don't know what they are for. Watching the video closely makes it seem like the wink open at low airspeed - maybe high angle of attack also to keep air coming into the engine even when the plane is slipping backwards in a manoeuvre.

There is one point in the video when the plane is almost stationary with nose pointed up and afterburners are on - so clearly it is not forward movement ramming air into the engines - they are sucking air. Possibly this is where the louvres play a role
Correct.

Mig29 has those louvres particularly for FOD prevention. In Mig29 during ground roll the main intakes are fully closed, thus the huge doors on the top to provide all the air from the top. In the later models this was dropped to save huge space they were eating up.

Su-27 has/had a mesh screen to stop FOD. Its eliminated in later models of flanker family now I guess.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Indranil »

Those doors on the Su-27 family are called suction relief doors, aka auxiliary doors like those on the LCA. Actually, it is more similar to the letter box intakes that you see on the LCA Navy.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by SaiK »

IMHO, Vietnamese are pretty fast learners.. They might be a good all-round support for both civil and mil ops including make in India initiatives
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya G »

Swarajya mag linking Brahmos-Su30 as for SFC:

http://swarajyamag.com/insta/brahmos-cr ... march-2017
...In September 2010, India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of aircraft comprising 40 Su-30MKI air dominance fighters. In October 2012, the Cabinet Committee on Security gave the permission to make structural and software modifications on 42 Su-30MKIs and acquire 216 air-launched BrahMos missiles....
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Malaysia qualifies Paveway LGBs on its Su-30MKMs

http://www.malaysiandefence.com/lgbs-qu ... -flankers/
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Indian SU-30MKI becomes aircraft of choice to test new missiles, bombs
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18061/ ... GRbl7YrJuU
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Critical India-Russia Pact to Improve Fighter Aircraft Availability
New Delhi (Sputnik) — India and Russia are at an advanced stage of signing a long-term arrangement that includes the manufacturing some of the spares of Russian-made aircraft being assembled in India.

Sources say talks between both countries are at an advanced stage for setting up a logistics hub for its most lethal combat aircraft, the Su-30MKI, at the facilities of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) in Bangalore. "Our status with Russia is much better than two years back. We have signed many of the contracts this year, very few are left. We are working on long-term arrangements including the manufacturing some of the spares in India. Earlier, there were some problems due to the need to change their [Russian] laws," Manohar Parrikar, India's Defense Minister, said.

delegation level talks are scheduled in March to sign the contract for improving spare parts availability including manufacturing some of them in India. Meanwhile, a significant improvement has witnessed in the availability of Sukhoi-30 fighter aircraft in last two years. "Sukhoi availability which had slipped to 46 per cent today is now above 63 per cent," Parrikar said.


The Indian Air Force (IAF) has finalized a long-term repair agreement with Russian original equipment manufacturers to improve the availability of aircraft for operational use. But it takes up to 18 months to deliver spare parts from Russia mainly due to cumbersome bureaucratic process and extensive documentation.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ranjan.rao »

^^over a base of ~200 aircrafts 17% jump means an increase in availability of 34 aircrafts, which is close to 2 squadrons and also the number of rafales we are purchasing
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

There were supposed to be two more low level Astra flights from Chandipur.
Any updates on that?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Comparing Rafale and MKI Purchase a simplistic comparison

Cost for MKI as per MOD figures each Sukhoi today cost $60 million , Let me do simple multiplication of 272 x 60 = ~ $16 billion that included TOT , Customisation of MKI , Infra , Local Manuf all included

Rafale $ 8.8 Billion for 36 aircraft ( no TOT ,Local Manuf ) each aircraft cost $244 million ( paid upfront for 5 years of LCC and 70 % uptimes ,50 % offsets )

Price difference in todays price between the two $7.2 billion , Extra Sukhoi for that price difference 236 more aircraft


Sukhoi uptimes today 63 % , Rafale uptimes projected 70-75 % , MKI uptimes will be get higher with the final goal to get 70 % uptime for MKI fleet
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Aditya_V »

But Rafale has a much RCS, AESA radar, Access to French weapons like MICA and Meteor, AASM etc which Chinese do not have like R-77, R-73 etc, plus Isareli and Nato weapons can be more easily intergrated with. So not exactly Apples to Apples.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Aditya_V wrote:But Rafale has a much RCS, AESA radar, Access to French weapons like MICA and Meteor, AASM etc which Chinese do not have like R-77, R-73 etc, plus Isareli and Nato weapons can be more easily intergrated with. So not exactly Apples to Apples.
RCS don't matter once you carry external load and MKI are RAM treated, AESA point is taken but BARS mk3 is no slouch either , on weapons you can integrate any weapons on mki due to open architecture framework and source code availability
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Raptor, Rambha & Growler among others....all in one frame!
https://twitter.com/OC_Jaguars/status/8 ... 7935412224

This is an offical USAF Photo. I tried searching for the high resolution image at af.mil but no luck. If someone can find it, please post the link. Would be a great wallpaper image.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

These crazy photos show a Russian Su-27 Flanker dogfighting with a U.S. Air Force F-16 inside Area 51
https://theaviationist.com/2017/01/06/t ... e-area-51/
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by brar_w »

David's made them better and clearer. I posted them back in November when they were originally published by the photographer.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by kmkraoind »

Rakesh wrote:Raptor, Rambha & Growler among others....all in one frame!
https://twitter.com/OC_Jaguars/status/8 ... 7935412224

This is an offical USAF Photo. I tried searching for the high resolution image at af.mil but no luck. If someone can find it, please post the link. Would be a great wallpaper image.
Google reverse image search has thrown this. Link Among this, this one has insane 5700 x 3900 pixels. Link
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

dude, you are amazing. Thank you sir!
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Kartik »

India seeks to manufacture spare parts for Su-30MKI
India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) aims to begin manufacturing components and spare parts for the Sukhoi Su-30MKI multirole fighters it licence-builds for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

A HAL official told IHS Jane's on condition of anonymity that India and Russia are negotiating a transfer of technology that would enable the company to locally produce 322 Su-30MKI line replaceable units (LRUs) under the Indian government's 'Make in India' initiative.


"HAL is in advanced talks with Russia to make these LRUs," said the official on 9 January, adding that the company is likely to involve public and private sector firms in the venture at a later stage.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Serviceability of Su-30, helicopter fleet have risen over 60 per cent
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... r-4471113/
"Customer satisfaction is so much important that in the first one year I was having complaints on a daily basis; today hardly any complaints come," Parrikar said.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

^^^Rafale vs SU30 simplistic cost comparison:

50% offset + 50 year service agreement
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cybaru »

So it seems that the sukhoi line will get another 50 plane order. That seems reasonable. Did the order for Brahmos-M capable Su-30 get executed?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Rakesh wrote:Serviceability of Su-30, helicopter fleet have risen over 60 per cent
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... r-4471113/
"Customer satisfaction is so much important that in the first one year I was having complaints on a daily basis; today hardly any complaints come," Parrikar said.
He gets that right on the need to have higher availability and that leads to lesser buys .......Hope he can achieve that figure to 70 % for fighter , transport and chopper fleet.

He seems to have failed in rationalising the fleet that stuff is as important to improve availability and lower opex
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Cybaru wrote:So it seems that the sukhoi line will get another 50 plane order. That seems reasonable. Did the order for Brahmos-M capable Su-30 get executed?
where did you get that another 50 plane , the total order for MKI stands at 272 aircraft that has been the case for some years now and we are today at 200 + MKI in service
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Kartik wrote:India seeks to manufacture spare parts for Su-30MKI
are negotiating a transfer of technology that would enable the company to locally produce 322 Su-30MKI line replaceable units (LRUs) under the Indian government's 'Make in India' initiative.
I presume the the 322 number is the eventual run number. No order yet, but will probably will happen. Am I reading this wrong? MKI will be at 16-17 squadrons in total.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ashishvikas »

Cybaru wrote:
Kartik wrote:India seeks to manufacture spare parts for Su-30MKI
are negotiating a transfer of technology that would enable the company to locally produce 322 Su-30MKI line replaceable units (LRUs) under the Indian government's 'Make in India' initiative.
I presume the the 322 number is the eventual run number. No order yet, but will probably will happen. Am I reading this wrong? MKI will be at 16-17 squadrons in total.
I think 322 are number of LRUs (not number of MKIs).
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Okay, that makes more sense. My bad.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

cybaru: please check PM :)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Austin »

Indian Su-30MKI Aircraft To Last 30-40 Years In Service: IAF Chief

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18066/ ... HsXEn1cuPU
Indian Air Force (IAF) Sukhoi Su-30MKI aircraft currently in service is said to last for another 30-40 years in operation, IAF chief Arup Raha said.

Raha during a press conference in New Delhi on Wednesday said that India has enough numbers of Sukhois in service that will last for another 30-40 years.

India so far has more than 200 planes delivered, and the Su-30MKI is the most numerous of the multirole fighters currently in service with the IAF.

However, Raha stressed on adding medium weight fighters to the IAF aircraft fleet. “Over the next 10 years, we must have 200-250 aircraft. It has to be balanced out. In the heavy weight spectrum, we have enough. But in the medium weight category, we need to have more. Yes, about 200 will be very good,” the Air Chief said Economic Times.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by shiv »

Some Su-30 facts from Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj
Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India. Of the 43,000 components that go into a Su-30MKI, 31,500 components - or 73 per cent - are now being built in India. Further indigenisation is blocked since the Indo-Russian contract mandates that all raw material that goes into the Su-30MKI - including 5,800 titanium blocks and forgings, aluminium and steel plates, etc - must be sourced from Russia. The contract also stipulates that another 7,146 items like nuts, bolts, screws and rivets must be sourced from Russia. HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.
...
BTW those nuts and bolts are high strength alloy material. Unless HAL goes into fastener business it's ok to import. Further those raw materials and forgings again value added is in machining. So should look at cost basis.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cosmo_R »

shiv wrote:Some Su-30 facts from Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj
Says the chief of HAL's Nashik facility, S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India, a little more than the 49 per cent agreed with Russia in the contract signed in 2000 to build 140 fighters in India. .....
...
BTW those nuts and bolts are high strength alloy material. Unless HAL goes into fastener business it's ok to import. Further those raw materials and forgings again value added is in machining. So should look at cost basis.
" S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India'

How do we square cost basis with ~half the cost being imported from Russia? HAL does not have to go into the fastener business but isn't the stuff that ecosystems are for? SMEs who churn out the nuts and bolts leveraging their machining skills to find other domestic and foreign markets outside the a/c business for example.

Just asking.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

If these were posted earlier, my apologies....

IAF plans for dedicated satellite on track; Sukhoi to fire BrahMos in 3 months
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1402970
Oct 04, 2016

Top Gun Sukhoi pilot in an inspiring role as ASTE Commandant
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/features ... -1.1405428
Oct 05, 2016
Hailing from Delhi, AVM Sandeep has been serving the IAF since 1983 and today he is the leading pilot who knows the frontline Sukhois like the back of his hand.
Can someone please identify the missile in the above link?
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by andy B »

Saar thats an CATM 84 D (captive carry training missile) Harpoon onlee

Not sure in background if its an IN or IAF dhruv as its blurry as hell...Not sure if this is at a Jag or a P8 I Neptune base!
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Thanks Andy! If it a Jag base (which I suspect it is) then it is No 6 Dragons Sqn at Jamnagar AFS. If it is the P-8I base, then it is INS Rajali in Tamil Nadu. Being an IAF officer, greater odds is that it is an IAF base itself.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Cybaru »

Don;t be so sure Rakesh! ;)
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

I am not saying I am right, just guessing. AFAIK, the two airbases where air launched Harpoons are stored is at Jamnagar for the Jaguar IM and Arokannam in Tamil Nadu for the P-8Is. Now if that is not either, then the third base I can think of is somewhere at the Mumbai naval base where sub launched Harpoons are kept for the Shishumat Class boats.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by shiv »

Rakesh wrote:Thanks Andy! If it a Jag base (which I suspect it is) then it is No 6 Dragons Sqn at Jamnagar AFS. If it is the P-8I base, then it is INS Rajali in Tamil Nadu. Being an IAF officer, greater odds is that it is an IAF base itself.
Rakesh it is ASTE Bengaluru
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Rakesh »

Damn...I was way off :oops:

It was in the article itself :rotfl: :oops:
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by Indranil »

andy B wrote: Not sure in background if its an IN or IAF dhruv as its blurry as hell...Not sure if this is at a Jag or a P8 I Neptune base!
It says Bharatiya Vayu Sena on the boom.
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Re: Su-30: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

Post by ramana »

Cosmo_R wrote:
shiv wrote:Some Su-30 facts from Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj
" S Subrahmanyan: "More 51 per cent of the Su-30MKI by value is currently made in India'

How do we square cost basis with ~half the cost being imported from Russia? HAL does not have to go into the fastener business but isn't the stuff that ecosystems are for? SMEs who churn out the nuts and bolts leveraging their machining skills to find other domestic and foreign markets outside the a/c business for example.

Just asking.
A simpler way is to look at his talk this way

Plane India Russia
Value 51% 49%
Parts 31,500 11,500

Imports 5800 + 7146 = 12,946 close enough. These represent the 49% import costs.
Indian 51% includes cost of machining, assembly, integration and test.

Engine India Russia
Value 53% 47%
Parts ~88% ~12%

The 12 % imports cost the 47%

Also means Indian labor addition is low priced and cant blame HAL for high price. And the Russians are getting a big benefit in this deal.

Cosmo_R, Those nuts and bolts require double melt refiing and high grade strength. Unless MII picks up in aerospace mfg expect import of high quality aerospace fasteners.
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