Currency Demonetisation and Future course of Indian Economy

[JohnTitor]

P Chidambaram is the biggest crook and gaddar a country can have.
I have been following his statements since India's Nuclear test.
He said "India has shot in his foot"

Since then I have not seen him supporting any good policy in India. His conduct is nothing short of a foreign mole. I am sure he was recruited when he was at Harvard.
It is unfortunate that such kind of people held high position of finance minister and home minister.
As home minister he tried to implicate Modi and supported terrorists.
He had looted Indian public money and his son is enjoying stay in Singapore and investing in real estate there.
I am sure he is involved in money laundering his own and congress money.

He is using his Harvard education to loot the system and act against country interest.

Interesting you should say that, lookie here:
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 19501.html

Gita Gopinath, Economics Professor at Harvard University said she was in favour of the principle of moving to a cashless economy. However, she added that the manner in which India has gone about it with an overnight ban of Rs 500 and Rs 100 legal tender is harder to swallow. “We are seeing a lot of costs without seeing any benefits.”

[Primus]

The day I landed in India, demonetization was announced. ...................

The only bad part was in paying tips. Normally try to be very generous in paying tips as a way of my contribution to less fortunate people. This time I had to conserve my money and felt very bad about this. If you plan properly as a traveler it is not hard to manage with card.

This is a problem I've faced often. Everything else can be managed by credit cards but for tipping the only instrument universally is cash (except of course a restaurant bill). In countries like South Africa the USD is not used and hence you need local currency, same for India.

OT, but this is something that NRIs have a difference of opinion on. Before I left India, I too was in the 'you foreigners come here and spoil it for us by tipping everybody, we give the taxiwallah the exact amount on the meter to the paisa etc'. When I became an NRI, I found it almost impossible not to tip the bellboy at the hotel, the doorman, the taxi driver, the housekeeping staff etc. It is so ingrained in the American society. I know this may sound pretentious but I also feel bad for the poor folk when I visit Desh and try to be more generous than I would be in a Western nation. Even after 30 plus years, I can't help but feel 'these are my people'. It is a strange thing.

Cashless will make this a bit more difficult now.

[Primus]

1) Security needs to be further strengthend

My brother has a credit card of one the top private indian banks. With 3d secure alert set. In addition he uses mainly the OTP way when doing online transactions

Some 3 weeks back at around 2 AM he starts getting about a dozen SMSs one after the other about his card being used for online transactions in Russia, the baltic states, spain and eastern europe.

In a panic he dials the helpline of the bank only to realise that it's 4 AM and they do not have round the clock support. He then starts his laptop, logs in to the internet (luckily he has a broad band connection and is in a metro city), tries to log in to his net banking only to get a message that the account login itself has been blocked. In a total panic wonders what to do next (go to the cops?) but then realises that the SMS's have stopped.

Waits till the morning (no intimation from the bank). Calls the bank support and is informed that his card has been hacked and hence blocked by the bank. He says that's great but why block his netbanking only to get a vague reply about security and how he will be sent a new password (by courier) in 48 hours. He does get the new password in 3 days leading him to immediately log in and see if there is any further damage (bank sends SMS alert for minimum of Rs 5000 withdrawals). Get's a new card in 7 days. No explanations about how and where the card was compromised.

For 3 days he was not able to do anything with his net banking and was without a credit card for 7.

CC hacking is universal, I've had mine compromised here in the US almost every couple of years. Usually it is the CC company that picks it up and calls me asking if the transaction was authorized by me, if not they cancel the card and issue another which is in my hands the next business day by Fedex.

Amex does it better. You do not need to inform them of travel abroad (something I need to do with Mastercard). If you lose your card, they continue to honor your recurring payments to utilities and such without need to change all your accounts. And of course they issue a new card instantly for other purchases.

It is, in the end, the bank that is the problem. In the 25 yrs of my using this particular bank here, I have never had any KYC calls or letters. I've also found that security issues are a larger concern with Indian banks, the log-in page offers a 'virtual keyboard' which none of the American banks do. I suppose the banking environment in India calls for greater security.

2) Must be made less cumbersome (or more user friendly)

This is just based on a personal experience. Not really a huge problem for me per se but might be for others.

I have been using online (cash less) payment methods for over a decade now. About 10-15 years back it was just to pay for the essential services (Electricity, Landline, Gas etc). The yearly tax returns filing were way easier to file as the number of bank transactions were low.

About 5 years ago i started to use cash less payment for more and more things (online shopping, train tickets, entertainment, dining out etc). Now the yearly bank statement runs into tens of pages. Luckily for me i am well versed in spreadsheets. So i just download the yearly statement in an MS excel format and use filters on the column of deposits, then further filters (some use the word 'Interest', some use 'Int') on which credits are taxable, which are already tax deducted and so on.

Going further i think perhaps almost 80%-90% of my transactions will be happening in a digital way, my excel file will be huge and i will have to be even more careful. Others who are not so conversant with spreadsheets will need to bring themselves up to speed or will have to depend on external help (family, friends,CA's etc) leading to other concerns

You can use accounting software like Quicken or Money or iBank which allow automatic download of your CC or bank statements and populate the fields directly. Most CC (Amex esp) will also categorize your annual expenditure for you.

It is the cash expenses that are the most troublesome to categorize as you need to do so on an almost daily basis if you want to be precise.

[JohnTitor]

This is a problem I've faced often. Everything else can be managed by credit cards but for tipping the only instrument universally is cash (except of course a restaurant bill). In countries like South Africa the USD is not used and hence you need local currency, same for India.

OT, but this is something that NRIs have a difference of opinion on. Before I left India, I too was in the 'you foreigners come here and spoil it for us by tipping everybody, we give the taxiwallah the exact amount on the meter to the paisa etc'. When I became an NRI, I found it almost impossible not to tip the bellboy at the hotel, the doorman, the taxi driver, the housekeeping staff etc. It is so ingrained in the American society. I know this may sound pretentious but I also feel bad for the poor folk when I visit Desh and try to be more generous than I would be in a Western nation. Even after 30 plus years, I can't help but feel 'these are my people'. It is a strange thing.

Cashless will make this a bit more difficult now.

In Europe & the US, you can tip by CC - you add it as part of the bill. When they give you the terminal, there is an option to add a gratuity & specify the amount. The last time I used cash was over 2 years ago.. would be great if india can achieve the same

[RajeshG]

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/mon ... 428534.ece

The Government will start easing restrictions on cash withdrawals once 80 per cent of the new currency introduced following demonetisation is re-channelised through bank deposits, a top official said today.

Queues at banks have reduced substantially and are visibly longer only in poll-bound states like Uttar Pradesh and Punjab, he said.

The official added that the restrictions on cash withdrawals will be first eased in the case of cooperative banks and then for all the scheduled commercial banks.

[Yagnasri]

Cross post from Political thread.

5000 cr in 4 days

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 989956.cms

Did I not told you people that NCP solved its problems in DeMo and sitting happily. Maybe there are not going to be happy.

But easing things for Co Op banks first is the stupidest thing in the entire matter. that is where most of the loot is now hidden.

[prashanth]

Has this been reported before?
Link of TOI shown below quotes Mr. Shashikanta Das that new notes are designed indigenously

Focus now on printing of Rs 500 notes: Government

"It is the first time that the design of notes is done indigenously. Earlier Rs 500 notes were all designed outside. Rs 500 and Rs 2,000 notes have been entirely designed in-house. So they are much more secure. Scope of counterfeiting is far far lower," economic affairs secretary Shaktikanta Das told reporters today

[Yagnasri]

People I have spoken said that they are getting 500s from ATMS. Good.

But how come Indian designed notes are more secure? I do not understand that statement.

[SaiK]

How do I read in between the lines of "designing indigenously increases security"?

[Rishi Verma]

^^ own design is always more secure, for starters one can make subtle changes as required without asking outsiders.

On a different topic RBI Gov Patel was shown Black Flags at Kolkata Airport by Congress Goons

Problem is gujju may assume it to be local chapter of morari bapu welcoming ceremony and feel delighted

[Manish_P]

@Primus

My revert within the quoted part, in blue font

CC hacking is universal
Correct. But the best and most Customer friendly ways to address it are not>>

Usually it is the CC company that picks it up and calls me asking if the transaction was authorized by me, if not they cancel the card and issue another which is in my hands the next business day by Fedex.
In our case, the CC company was VISA and the issuing bank was the bank in India. We got a call from the bank 2 days later (the issue happened after midnight on Friday. The Bank was closed on Saturday and Sunday

If you lose your card, they continue to honor your recurring payments to utilities and such without need to change all your accounts.
No such service in the third world i am afraid. Or at least not for us regular middle class folk

And of course they issue a new card instantly for other purchases.
They did. But it can via courier a cool 7 days later. Third world-and-middle class combination again, perhaps

It is, in the end, the bank that is the problem. In the 25 yrs of my using this particular bank here, I have never had any KYC calls or letters. I've also found that security issues are a larger concern with Indian banks, the log-in page offers a 'virtual keyboard' which none of the American banks do. I suppose the banking environment in India calls for greater security.
The bank was a problem but the lesser one. The KYC was done every two years. My brother does use the virtual keyboard but not every time. The problem of the hacking or cloning of the credit card probably happened elsewhere.. maybe at an ATM, or at a restaurant or a shopping centre

You can use accounting software like Quicken or Money or iBank which allow automatic download of your CC or bank statements and populate the fields directly. Most CC (Amex esp) will also categorize your annual expenditure for you.
Sir after such an episode very few would have confidence in third party applications.

It is the cash expenses that are the most troublesome to categorize as you need to do so on an almost daily basis if you want to be precise.
True. But in India the IT filings happen on income from sources such as Salary (deducted at source), amount in your savings account, Interest earned on term deposits, debt mutual funds etc

[JohnTitor]

^^

In Europe, the banks will not allow transactions outside the country without confirmation. For instance, when I come to India or go to another country, I login to the accuont and choose the countries/dates I will be and only then will transactions be allowed. If I go without telling them, they will call the embassy to confirm if I did indeed travel (though this usually applies to transactions totalling > $150 )

Further, if I am buying something from abroad, the bank will block the transaction and i will receive an automated call to confirm that i made that transaction, after which it is unblocked.

These are things India can and should implement - it enables safer cashless transactions and prevents fraud. I would have thought, with India's IT skills, these would be quick wins.

[Suresh S]

Chidambaram is a traitor worth thousands of crores.Inside knowledge from business community who deals with these scumbags. So is our wonderful president by the way( moneywise).

[Rishi Verma]

Shiv Sena Corporator from Mumbai Nabbed with 1.11Cr in Cash

Culprit = Dhananjay Gawade

In a joint operation, Income Tax Department and Crime Branch of Vasai Police on Thursday recovered Rs 1.11 crore in both old and new notes from the vehicle belonging to a Shiv Sena corporator in Vasai Virar Municipal Corporation, police said.

"Out of the Rs 1.11 crore, Rs 64.5 lakh were in scrapped notes of Rs 1,000 and Rs 500, while the remaining Rs 47 lakh were in the new Rs 2,000 bills," a police official said.

"Gawade has been taken into custody for questioning in connection with the cash," he said.

Burn baby burn.. I'd say.

[SSharma]

^^

In Europe, the banks will not allow transactions outside the country without confirmation. For instance, when I come to India or go to another country, I login to the accuont and choose the countries/dates I will be and only then will transactions be allowed. If I go without telling them, they will call the embassy to confirm if I did indeed travel (though this usually applies to transactions totalling > $150 )

Further, if I am buying something from abroad, the bank will block the transaction and i will receive an automated call to confirm that i made that transaction, after which it is unblocked.

These are things India can and should implement - it enables safer cashless transactions and prevents fraud. I would have thought, with India's IT skills, these would be quick wins.

is this EU policy or bank policy for some banks?

[Rishi Verma]

In my 3rd world country of India, when I make an online purchase with my card the bank sends me an SMS to my mobile phone with a code. I need to enter the code at the vendor's portal to complete the transaction. So..

[GShankar]

^^

In Europe, the banks will not allow transactions outside the country without confirmation. For instance, when I come to India or go to another country, I login to the accuont and choose the countries/dates I will be and only then will transactions be allowed. If I go without telling them, they will call the embassy to confirm if I did indeed travel (though this usually applies to transactions totalling > $150 )

Further, if I am buying something from abroad, the bank will block the transaction and i will receive an automated call to confirm that i made that transaction, after which it is unblocked.

These are things India can and should implement - it enables safer cashless transactions and prevents fraud. I would have thought, with India's IT skills, these would be quick wins.

is this EU policy or bank policy for some banks?

I encountered this Twice. Once I travelled to Brazil and used my HSBC international card. I got an email and a call from HSBC after my first transaction of just a few $$.

And again when I travelled to Canada, my first big transaction was cancelled. Then after speaking with customer support, the transaction went through.

The overall process was smooth (enough) for me.

[Sachin]

But easing things for Co Op banks first is the stupidest thing in the entire matter. that is where most of the loot is now hidden.

How have things got eased out for Co.Op banks? As per the below report, there has not been any let down in KYC requirements.
Co-operative banks can collect demonetised currency after completing KYC: Centre to SC
So the District & State Co.Op banks can start pushing money into RBI, from all accounts they have KYC for. The specific petition was filed by District Co.Op banks in Kerala who had collected lots of old currency from Nov 8th to Nov 12th. Now these folks can deposit the amount to the RBI, provided they have supporting KYC documentation. In Kerala, NABARD had found that 1000 crore worth money was there with these District Co.Op banks for which they did not have KYC. The deposits had come from Primary Co.Op societies (banks!??).

Now, how does this scenario play out in Maharashtra with its paawarful people? It may be dicey if District Co.Op banks push in lots of money, but have KYC information for all that. And if these KYC is all that of "farmers", then it becomes tough to prove that it is NOT farming income. In Kerala, this trick may not work as pretty much no one does farming/agriculture as a viable means of livelihood as individuals.

[SSharma]

In my 3rd world country of India, when I make an online purchase with my card the bank sends me an SMS to my mobile phone with a code. I need to enter the code at the vendor's portal to complete the transaction. So..

even that is now (optionally) bypassed with a 3d "secure" pin - which is like a permanent OTP

[JohnTitor]

is this EU policy or bank policy for some banks?

EU/local country regulators all require certain unified policies, such as KYC/AML etc within their jurisdiction.

I don't think EU covers fraud in the sense of what banks need to do, but rather puts the onus on banks to refund customers within a time frame for fraud etc. This in effect ensures banks do this out of self-preservation. But pretty much every bank in the EU has such systems in place (not too sure about Eastern Europe though, they might still be catching up after joining the EU), though not necessarily the same.

Things like 3D secure are not mandated by banks, but by the merchant acquirers. See, if I order something (from anyone anywhere) using an EU debit/Credit card, andI don't receive the goods, I can raise a charge-back. The bank pays me and the acquirer pays the bank. Acquirers have to get this money back from the merchants. So they incentivise merchants to use 3D secure. If they don't use 3DS, transaction costs are higher. But many merchants are willing to take the hit in order to "convenience" the customer. OTP is not generally used for purchases using the card (at least in the UK) - they are used when adding/amending payees on your online account.

So the customer always gets either the product or the refund.

Without such protections, people using online systems would become weary as there is genuine risk. Though I don't give a second thought when I buy something online because I'm confident of being protected.

Moreover, countries and the EU have data protection policies in place. So if a merchant collects your details and then "loses" it or it is stolen from them, they become monetarily responsible. Again, ensures that they cannot get away with "chaltha hai".

[Marten]

murthy saar, do not count on being able to exchange dollars or any currency at a fair rate.
you would be lucky to be able to exchange them at all, i was at rgia last week, at least the atms were out of cash.

your best bet would be to get a friend to set up an ola account for you and put some cash in it.
you can take the user/pass from him and use the app on your smartphone to get you from point A to B - can book the ride even before you get out of the airport.

whatever INR you are able to procure, save it for emergencies, go as cashless as you can - in a city like hyd you have no excuse for not going cashless.

Thank you SSharma garu. I was worried that, even at an unfair rate, I may just not be able to get any INR for my USD at the airport, and you have made me see that my worry is not groundless.

I didn't think of the ola account idea. On my recent trip, I just used cash for ola, and never set up an account, but I'll do this so that I am not stuck at the airport with family.

Unfortunately I don't have a debit card, though I have an atm card. I am hoping to be able to use my US credit card for most sizable purchases, and maybe write cheques or something.

It'll be an adventure.

You can try to set up an Ola account on any local sim and fund it online or via PayTm. Better yet, try setting up your Uber app along with a PayTM account -- and you can fund it without any issues (or ask any of us to top it up!). AFAIK, Uber will work just as well with your international card.

[Singha]

Financial express...


The Income Tax department on Thursday raided an Axis bank branch in Noida sector 51 and reportedly found out accounts belonging to 20 fake companies. According to a report, over Rs 60 crore was deposited in those accounts. This came days after raid was conducted at an Axis Bank branch in Delhi’s Chandni Chowk. According to reports, I-T officials had said that about Rs 100 crore in old notes had been deposited in the accounts since November 8, the date of the announcement of demonetisation by Prime Minister Narendra Modi with an objective to curb down the flow of black money in the country.
The officials told NDTV that these 44 fake accounts had been created by the usage of forged documents. they said that the investigators suspected that the money might have been routed to buy gold. This is the second such raid to have been reported at a branch of Axis Bank. Earlier last month, I-T officials had nabbed two people with Rs 3.5 crores of cash in new currency notes while they tried to come out of the Kashmere Gate branch in Central Delhi.

[JE Menon]

>>is this EU policy

It is not. Different banks implement differently...

[Singha]

Car with 10 crore caught by police in mumbai

[SaraLax]

Chidambaram is a traitor worth thousands of crores.Inside knowledge from business community who deals with these scumbags. So is our wonderful president by the way( moneywise).

So true sir ... my native is same as P Chidambaram's (PC) native place. Even though he belongs to a different community - i always used to admire him for his erudition until a decade or so but i hold only bad opinions about him these days. Even the whole of PC's native region of Sivaganga knows about his antics. In the last 2014 LS elections - he put up his Son Karti Chidambaram to run under the INC symbol and his son lost his deposit coming 4th in vote count. This would have been the case even if PC had himself stood for election but he truly chickened out and Nirmala Sitharaman never failed to mention this during campaigning for BJP in TN during LS 2014 elections. Even BJP with nary a party structure in TN & with very little party worker strength came 3rd in this seat and eventually a Lawyer from ADMK won the seat.

History of PC's Family & about his community
PC hails from a very wealthy, pseudo-princely family (his grandfather - originally a well known industrialist, banker and philanthropist - was given the title 'Raja of Chettinad' by the British Colonialists) and PC was born rich. Lots of coffee estates in Coorg & other big investments were inherited by him through his family. He is related to MA Chidambaram (remember the name associated with the Chepauk Cricket ground in Chennai ) and also to erstwhile owner of Chettinad Cements (late MAM Ramasamy) & AC Muthiah (who like Vijay Mallaya has supposedly fled to Singapore it seems because one of his company - First Leasing - is caught in fraudelent activities and also former owner of the almost bankrupt SPIC). I remember that PC used to joyously attend the various annual Hindu Temple festivals local to Sivaganga and keenly took part in the associated Scholarly Tamil debate competitions during the 1980s &1990s and local people as well as his community people used to have more faith in him during those times - to make that region more prosperous. In reality - PC belongs to a very small Saivite Hindu community ... called Nattukottai Chettiars aka Nagarathars ... who are amongst the most active Hindus world over whether it is in terms of contributing to well being & taking care of the big old temples of TN or in spreading Hinduism as a part of their old business related travels ( in 19th & 20th centuries) to South-east Asia where they set up the Murugan & Vinayak temples in Burma, Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam, Philliphines, Cambodia & etc and allowed even the locals to take part in the worshipping of the Hindu gods. Many of these temples are active even these days. So you can understand about PC's history in terms of the family and community from which he comes. I used to believe he was a proper well educated person but since the 2000s he has become noticeably bent in his basic nature. These days - PC claims that there is no god.
Being rich due to his large family inheritances - there is absolutely no need either for PC to siphon of money exploiting his political & government positions, to further maintain benamis on his behalf or for his son to indulge in the same too. But PC has undergone a big transformation towards the bad side IMO and i am a long time observer of him. It is good that his son is facing failures at his first attempts to come into politics because if he were to come in as an MLA or MP .. he can influence the government & judiciary to not act against his father's willful wrong doings.

PC is a very clever & smooth operator. Still PC (& in some cases even his son Karti) is caught up in numerous cases ( Ishrat Jahan case & deliberately forging wrong info against NaMo when he was Home Minister, 2G scam & A.Raja of DMK wants to sing the truth out but is not being allowed too for some reason, Black Money to White transactions in Vasan Eye Care using foreign Venture Capitalists, Aircel-Maxis case ..). But the Father & Son duo seem to be able to escape punishment because PC seems to have help from MSM in Delhi, seems to also have planted many of his lackey IAS officers & subservient people in home ministry, finance ministry & elsewhere to prevent the cases against him from going beyond first level of investigation. Why ... oh my god ... are these cases not going any further ???. If at all any arrogant guy needs to be nailed down and shamed .. its PC ... more so after he misused his position to mint money illegally inspite of having been born in a very very rich family. Even PC's daughter-in-law and Karthi's wife .. a Vice-President in Apollo Hospitals .... is supposed to hold a sizeable chunk of shares of Apollo Hospitals. Apollo Hospitals is also caught in the Maran Brothers' Aircel-Maxis Scam and Apollo Hospitals facilities was raided once again across the nation by I-T folks in January 2016. But PC shamelessly fools himself & the rest of the observant world by faking his innocence about the corruption taints against him. The Father and Son duo did indulge in criminally punishable activities as per this article & acted in the manner that well known journalist & CA Mr.Swaminathan Gurumurthy has explained in his own article in the NEW Indian Express newspaper. If you take up this topic of PC's mask of honesty being ripped out by Gurumurthy, minority religion Tamils refuse to believe it and most will say that it is Modi who is taking revenge on PC. Not suprisingly - That is the hold PC has among educated Minority religion folks in TN even though these same folks will repetaedly vote for DMK when given the option to vote for either DMK or INC.

Gurumurthy and his recent Benami Wealth related accusations via Newspaper articles against PC & his son Karti
Gurumurthy has aready described in detail on how PC and his son used VASAN Eye Care for converting their black money to white money. When Gurumurthy's article appeared in the newspapers - PC immediately warned that he is going to file a case against New Indian Express and the newspaper as well as Gurmurthy welcomed it and dared PC to first file the defamation suite against the paper & then open his mouth. But till date - Neither PC nor his son have filed a case against the New Indian Express or Gurumurthy. Also Gurumurthy goes about answering questions from Tamil News TV channels on his assertions about the Benamis-for-PC & his-Son-Karti accusations, by repeatedly challenging PC & his Son Karti to file a case against him if there is even a slight iota of untruth in it and there are no responses yet from PC. PC is caught in a slightly tough situation but his pawns in CBI/Finance Ministry/I-T seem to be helping him out and stalling the progress in these I-T & criminal activity cases. When Gurumurthy was questioned about lack of movement in these I-T raids against Karti Chidambaram in Tamil News Channels - he keeps saying ... wait for some more time and things will start moving there too. I am eagerly waiting to see PC & his Son Karti being punished legally for their morally criminal acts that have been shielded using loopholes in the Indian law system.

The worst thing ... as a father of daughters .. for me .... is that Karti Chidambram has brought in his minor aged girl Aditi Nalini Chidambaram into the benami transactions because the benami holders have expressed in the wills (taken by I-T dept during raid at Karti's house) that they would like to transfer their complete ownership of the (benami shell) company to Aditi Nalini Chidambaram after the end of their life and the executor of this will would be her father Mr.Karti Chidambaram. Levels to which some stupid already rich people go to ... to greedily acquire immoral wealth. This young lady would be remembered for a long time - just for having featured in the wills of the benami owners of her father's companies. I dont know how Karti Chidambaram's wife felt about this sort of an arrangement - because she also comes from an illustrious family that is associated with medical field in Chennai.

I sometimes wonder if PC has turned into a black sheep & is being blackmailed to operate for certain Criminal or Anti-Indian entities - under the pressure of release of some video evidences of him caught in some well laid out traps during his ministerial tenures in Delhi.

[Primus]

This is a problem I've faced often. Everything else can be managed by credit cards but for tipping the only instrument universally is cash (except of course a restaurant bill). In countries like South Africa the USD is not used and hence you need local currency, same for India.

OT, but this is something that NRIs have a difference of opinion on. Before I left India, I too was in the 'you foreigners come here and spoil it for us by tipping everybody, we give the taxiwallah the exact amount on the meter to the paisa etc'. When I became an NRI, I found it almost impossible not to tip the bellboy at the hotel, the doorman, the taxi driver, the housekeeping staff etc. It is so ingrained in the American society. I know this may sound pretentious but I also feel bad for the poor folk when I visit Desh and try to be more generous than I would be in a Western nation. Even after 30 plus years, I can't help but feel 'these are my people'. It is a strange thing.

Cashless will make this a bit more difficult now.

In Europe & the US, you can tip by CC - you add it as part of the bill. When they give you the terminal, there is an option to add a gratuity & specify the amount. The last time I used cash was over 2 years ago.. would be great if india can achieve the same

actually you can only use CC for tipping if there is already a bill or invoice created using it, say at a restaurant. Typically you cannot use CC for tipping the curbside check-in guy at the airport, the Skycap porters, the bellboy at the hotel or the housekeeping maid or the doorman who calls the cab for you when you check out. That's a lot of tipping when you travel. I often take a whole wad of singles with me on my trips.

You can tip by CC in all NY city cabs it is actually very easy to do so.

I still use cash quite a bit in NY, say buying a cup of coffee or a newspaper at the train station, or a $2 trinket from a local shop (feel silly using CC for something trivial like that).

In fact many vendors and small business owners even in the US will have signs that clearly say 'Credit card for purchases over $15 only" or something like that.

So it can never be totally cashless anywhere in the world, at least in my travels it hasn't been my experience.

[Rishi Verma]

Requesting credit card tipping etc discussion be halted or be taken to nukkad thread. There is lots of fun stuff happening vis a vis DeMo.

[Rishi Verma]

Field Report : in Lucknow today, few ATMs I visited all dispensing cash with no queue. Spent 900 at Domino's and gave a 2000, got two new 500 back. My first. They are much smaller than even the 100Rs notes, just slightly bigger than 10Rs notes.

[Primus]

@Primus

My revert within the quoted part, in blue font

CC hacking is universal
Correct. But the best and most Customer friendly ways to address it are not>>

Usually it is the CC company that picks it up and calls me asking if the transaction was authorized by me, if not they cancel the card and issue another which is in my hands the next business day by Fedex.
In our case, the CC company was VISA and the issuing bank was the bank in India. We got a call from the bank 2 days later (the issue happened after midnight on Friday. The Bank was closed on Saturday and Sunday

If you lose your card, they continue to honor your recurring payments to utilities and such without need to change all your accounts.
No such service in the third world i am afraid. Or at least not for us regular middle class folk

And of course they issue a new card instantly for other purchases.
They did. But it can via courier a cool 7 days later. Third world-and-middle class combination again, perhaps

It is, in the end, the bank that is the problem. In the 25 yrs of my using this particular bank here, I have never had any KYC calls or letters. I've also found that security issues are a larger concern with Indian banks, the log-in page offers a 'virtual keyboard' which none of the American banks do. I suppose the banking environment in India calls for greater security.
The bank was a problem but the lesser one. The KYC was done every two years. My brother does use the virtual keyboard but not every time. The problem of the hacking or cloning of the credit card probably happened elsewhere.. maybe at an ATM, or at a restaurant or a shopping centre

You can use accounting software like Quicken or Money or iBank which allow automatic download of your CC or bank statements and populate the fields directly. Most CC (Amex esp) will also categorize your annual expenditure for you.
Sir after such an episode very few would have confidence in third party applications.

It is the cash expenses that are the most troublesome to categorize as you need to do so on an almost daily basis if you want to be precise.
True. But in India the IT filings happen on income from sources such as Salary (deducted at source), amount in your savings account, Interest earned on term deposits, debt mutual funds etc

Manish Ji, we live in very dangerous times and face problems that are unique to a society that has become so dependent upon technology and is so 'connected'.

In your brother's case it was a perfect storm, which hopefully is not a frequent recurrence.

The point I was trying to make was that cyber crime and CC theft is universal and the response of the issuing bank/company is also highly variable. It is only Amex for example that does not want you to change your recurring payment set up. My other cards are all MC and I always have to run down the list of payees and redo the whole thing again. With some of them (like the guy who supplies our heating oil) we have to have them send us a form, fill it out with the new CC details and send it back. Even in the US, Amex is not accepted everywhere (they charge a higher commission) and thus many of my payees are on the MC list.

What is interesting from my POV is that cyber security is probably much better implemented in India, with the KYC, virtual keyboard for log-in etc. None of this exists in the US. Yes, there may be better customer service (although that is a hit and miss too), but overall it seems to be much easier to steal somebody's ID and commit other cyber crimes.

Taxation here too is on income that is easily identifiable.Every penny I have ever earned is documented somewhere by the IRS. My point about categorizing cash expenses is simply to keep track of your earnings/expenses, i.e. an electronic budgeting.

I highly recommend a program like Quicken if you are at all interested in analyzing your own financial situation. You can disable automatic download and enter the data yourself, but it is an invaluable tool for what it does.

[Primus]

is this EU policy or bank policy for some banks?

I encountered this Twice. Once I travelled to Brazil and used my HSBC international card. I got an email and a call from HSBC after my first transaction of just a few $$.

And again when I travelled to Canada, my first big transaction was cancelled. Then after speaking with customer support, the transaction went through.

The overall process was smooth (enough) for me.

In the US the situation is highly variable depending upon your CC and your bank/company that issues it.

Amex does not require you to declare that you are traveling abroad, but then it is not universally accepted even within the US and much less so outside, so has limited benefits, but they also do not set spending limits so it is a very useful card to have.

MC by Citibank requires me to call every time I go outside the US. They will usually overlook it if you don't but sometimes will decline the purchase.

MC by Amazon was the worst I've used. They would decline a purchase even within the US if I did not call to say I was traveling outside my local area. Even then it was so random that I stopped using it.

There is no government regulation about this, AFAIK.

[Dipanker]

I sometimes wonder if PC has turned into a black sheep & is being blackmailed to operate for certain Criminal or Anti-Indian entities - under the pressure of release of some video evidences of him caught in some well laid out traps during his ministerial tenures in Delhi.

Unfortunately such a model of blackmail will be applicable to most of our corrupt politicians. Just assume that USA, Russia, China, Pakis etc. have proof against these politicians they can exploit, meaning our national interest can be seriously compromised.

Politics in India needs to be completely cleaned up of corruption. Removing corruption must start from the top, then it will automatically trickle down to lower levels.

[RajeshG]

Sorry this doesnt add any valuable info but it cracked me up.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 004009.cms

"He (Rahul Gandhi) is bound by the law, criminal procedure code, to report it to police station or to a court of law and not to doing so carries a punishment of three years," he told reporters outside Parliament.

Only Swami can deliver this type of punches..

Also

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/% ... 834276.ece

The Finance Ministry on Thursday said the Rs. 12.44 lakh crore figure reported by the Reserve Bank of India as the amount having been deposited in banks since the November 8 demonetisation announcement could be inflated due to double-counting.

Govt has asked RBI to confirm the numbers again.

[Suraj]

This 'double counting' thing repeatedly gets mentioned. What exactly is 'double counting' here ? This isn't simply a ledger exercise. RBI literally gets all the physical notes back. Banks don't just handle the task of tallying and destruction themselves in a bonfire in the alleyway behind the bank buildings after calling RBI and telling them 'yes yes saar, there's Rs.20 lakh burning in the garbage bin here. We counted.' The process of final serial number based settlement of RBIs liabilities and destruction is a methodical process. How does 'double counting' happen here, unless there's some guy seated on a floor with 'counted' and 'uncounted' piles of cash he keeps confusing ?

Sure, there's some scope for ledger based confusion before the old notes are physically sent and verified by RBI. I wouldn't necessarily blame SBI for this. They don't have the infrastructure to handle the incredible volume of cash they're receiving. They have ~Rs.17.5 lakh crore in deposits as of March 2016. Their deposit base grows by about 1.5-2 lakh crore a year. Since Nov 10 they've added perhaps 6-7 lakh crore in deposits. That's >3x their annual deposit growth, in just one month.

It's easy enough to say 'GoI/RBI/SBI should have planned for this'. Actually no, one time surge activity simply cannot be planned for in advance. What you do have, is administrative ability to handle issues on the fly. As in surge warfare, Moltke's rules apply: a) No prior plan survives initial contact with the enemy and b) Strategy is a system of expedients.

[SaraLax]

I sometimes wonder if PC has turned into a black sheep & is being blackmailed to operate for certain Criminal or Anti-Indian entities - under the pressure of release of some video evidences of him caught in some well laid out traps during his ministerial tenures in Delhi.

Unfortunately such a model of blackmail will be applicable to most of our corrupt politicians. Just assume that USA, Russia, China, Pakis etc. have proof against these politicians they can exploit, meaning our national interest can be seriously compromised.

Politics in India needs to be completely cleaned up of corruption. Removing corruption must start from the top, then it will automatically trickle down to lower levels.

Again ... So true.
We need politicians who have lots of moral will-power, equi-poised when engulfed with either buckets of praise or batches of brickbats, situational awareness to understand how the counter-party is trying to deal with us. All of this can actually be indicated with proper examples of both failure & success case scenarios - to the newly elected folks at start of every new assembly and atleast make them ready in some way. But when new politicians see so many of their ilk - going scot free or just getting rapped in their knuckles rather than being punished severely for having been corrupt, things will change for the worse after a few years in power & the same politician will get tempted to cheat his own folks that voted for him. We need regular de-weeding both on the inside and the outside.

[RajeshG]

Suraj, regarding double-counting.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 867288.cms

SBI, which had been releasing its collection data on a daily basis, has stopped reporting the numbers this week, stating that these were not giving the right picture as they included interbank deposits and deposits of legal tender, which have started coming in. The net deposits mobilised by the bank since November 10 is understood to have touched Rs 3.5 lakh crore. "We are not releasing our numbers because we believe that there is a possibility of double-counting. Post offices and cooperative banks have accounts with us and we also started receiving new notes as deposits," said Arundhati Bhattacharya, chairman, SBI.

She said it was not possible to comment on the RBI numbers as she was not aware whether the issues were being addressed. The research wing of SBI, however, said that there is a possibility of double-counting of 10-15% in bank deposits.

[Suraj]

Ok thanks. Sounds like something they'll just settle after a while when they have time to wade through all the notes properly. Right now, the actual task of accepting and processing deposits is more important.

[maxratul]

X-posting from the poll thread

I have a take on this which I would like to share:

Every political move has to tell a story to the electorate. The BJP campaign for the general election told a particular story, so did the intolerance campaign, Anna Hazare etc etc. What is the political story that the BJP is trying to sell here -
a. Namo is incorruptible
b. Serious against black money offenders
c. Man with a vision, building a modern economy

As far as point (a) is considered, the battle has been won. By and large NaMo image is one of an honest leader except to the most bitter political opponents. However, it is in points (b) and (c) that the BJP has cause to worry, and worry big time.

Firstly, it is undeniable that the public by and large is facing hardship of various degrees - one cannot (and must not) gloss over it. That, however, is not the real problem - the public in india is used to facing hardships of different kinds. What is damning is that the government has not been able to showcase a "big catch" - say Damaad ji, to back up its big talk of not sparing any offenders. As the days go by, the perception WILL solidify that the fat cats will do their setting and escape, some minor idiots will be caught and mango people will just suffer for nothing. The government needs to display heads of the beasts that have been hunted plain and simple, or else all big talk of fighting corruption systemically will appear just hawa baazi - hot air. The people will say Modi has honest intention but system cannot be changed, and we will destroy the very credibility of a values based governing structure in india.

Secondly, the government has not spelled out in terms of policy what are the benefits of cashless economy, for consumers as well as small businesses. Just saying cashless is easy and next gen is not going to cause generational change - why cant an e-payment attract less service tax? why cant businesses selling essentials be given tax rebates for cashless transactions? why cant farm equipment and seeds/fertilizers be drastically subsidized if procured through e-payment? what are the real, meaty policy incentives to go cashless beyond mere sloaganeering and idiotic lotteries?

Right now, the gov. needs to get its act together or else it is heading for a disaster, no matter how much online echo chambers like twitter/whatsapp etc. say that all patriotic Indians are supporting move.

[SaiK]

Raids at branches impacting morale, say bankers; efforts on to reach out to staff

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Also please post your black money information (raids etc) links to viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7291, no discussions

[Bart S]

In Europe, the banks will not allow transactions outside the country without confirmation. For instance, when I come to India or go to another country, I login to the accuont and choose the countries/dates I will be and only then will transactions be allowed. If I go without telling them, they will call the embassy to confirm if I did indeed travel (though this usually applies to transactions totalling > $150 )

Further, if I am buying something from abroad, the bank will block the transaction and i will receive an automated call to confirm that i made that transaction, after which it is unblocked.

These are things India can and should implement - it enables safer cashless transactions and prevents fraud. I would have thought, with India's IT skills, these would be quick wins.

You seem to have an unfairly dim view of the Indian banking system. Fraud protection for international transactions is very much active on Indian bank cards as well, most people travelling internationally from India (frequent travellers) take care to inform the banks of the countries they are visiting and the dates, as a precaution. Otherwise your transaction can be blocked, and they also call you from the call center. It's good to notify them as a best practice so they add a note in their system since our mobile phone might not be reachable when that happens.

Heck, I have even gotten calls within 2 mins for using my card from India on a foreign website for a forex transaction.


Not only that, but Indian cards have had 2FA and mandatory chip cards before many countries including the US.

[Sicanta]

No target of printing new notes worth entire Rs 15.44 lakh cr: Govt

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 136_1.html

Centre to absorb MDR on debit card payments of up to Rs 1 lakh to govt

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 256_1.html