I know how this happened. When j20 took off everybody was so stunned that they forget to turn the radars on.neither j10/j11/su30 nor ground radar station detected j20.
Liu wrote:it is reported that j20 showed overwhelming edge on j10/j11/su30 with a final of 1:10 in one recent "Military exercises.
neither j10/j11/su30 nor ground radar station detected j20.
No. You must not say this. Posts by Liu are designed to evoke 'mine is bigger' responses. The intent is to provoke and angry/jealous reaction and this makes bilathers happy. Better to say "OK mine is smaller, and let them feel happy".snahata wrote:Inspite of all chinese bluster indian armed forces will kick chinki ass nice and proper in a one to one fair fight even today. Why I have this cockiness because of primarily the men behind the machines and also in the machines, come to think of it. What india needs to do is to do a Napolean and remove the paki threat first which I think is going to happen in the next 5-6 yrs.Chinese think they are so super dupper India just does not matter we are equal to US only, India can be ignored.Keep thinking that way comrade.
This story is a copycat story of an American one that came out a few months ago which was pretty similar. The US keeps coming out with boastful stories about the F-22 ad F-35 and how they will dominate wherever they go and no one else stands a chance. I guess it is funny to watch China give the us a piece of its own legend building propagandu.Liu wrote:well,in the exercises ,
dozens of 4g birds(j10,j11,su30) were supported by awac .
but awac was "shot down" first,then so were the dozens of 4g birds.
many chinese are discussing if it is wise for china to develop air_superiory 4g+ birds like j10c/j11d while 5g birds like j20 have such overwhelming edge on them.
well,i don't think so.shiv wrote:This story is a copycat story of an American one that came out a few months ago which was pretty similar. The US keeps coming out with boastful stories about the F-22 ad F-35 and how they will dominate wherever they go and no one else stands a chance. I guess it is funny to watch China give the us a piece of its own legend building propagandu.Liu wrote:well,in the exercises ,
dozens of 4g birds(j10,j11,su30) were supported by awac .
but awac was "shot down" first,then so were the dozens of 4g birds.
many chinese are discussing if it is wise for china to develop air_superiory 4g+ birds like j10c/j11d while 5g birds like j20 have such overwhelming edge on them.
Liu if that is true then my two paisaLiu wrote:
well,in the exercises ,
dozens of 4g birds(j10,j11,su30) were supported by awac .
but awac was "shot down" first,then so were the dozens of 4g birds.
many chinese are discussing if it is wise for china to develop air_superiory 4g+ birds like j10c/j11d while 5g birds like j20 have such overwhelming edge on them.
MOSCOW, December 14. /TASS/. Russia will provide to China the first batch of four Sukhoi-35 jets by December 25, 2016, a source within the system of military-technical cooperation with other countries told TASS.
"The first four Sukhoi-35 are to fly over to China by December 25," the source said.
Originally the deliveries were to begin as of next year, but eventually a decision was made to speed up the process and to provide the first batch in the last days of the outgoing year.
In November, the deputy chief of the federal service for military-technical cooperation, Vladimir Drozhzhov, told TASS that Russia had started acting on the first phase of its contractual liabilities to China to provide the Sukhoi-35 jets.
Russia and China in November 2015 concluded a contract for 24 Sukhoi-35 fighters. Under the $2 billion deal Russia is also to provide ground equipment and spare engines.
As a source within the military-technical cooperation system told TASS earlier, the contract will be effected in three years’ time.
The governor of the Khabarovsk Territory, where the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft building plant (manufacturer of Sukhoi-35 planes) is located, earlier said the first four planes will be provided to China by the end of this year. A short while later, though, the head of Rostec corporation, Sergey Chemezov, said that no Sukhoi-35 planes will be delivered to China in 2016.
The Sukhoi-35 is Russia’s multirole highly maneuverable fighter (generation 4++) with a phased array antenna radar and thrust vectoring engines. It can develop a maximum speed of 2,500 kilometers per hour and fly 3,400 kilometers without refueling. The combat range is 1,600 kilometers. The fighter is armed with a 30-mm gun and has twelve bomb and rocket suspension units.
f35 is the low-end 5g bird and is outperformanced by j20 by almost all features.ranjan.rao wrote:Liu if that is true then my two paisaLiu wrote:
well,in the exercises ,
dozens of 4g birds(j10,j11,su30) were supported by awac .
but awac was "shot down" first,then so were the dozens of 4g birds.
many chinese are discussing if it is wise for china to develop air_superiory 4g+ birds like j10c/j11d while 5g birds like j20 have such overwhelming edge on them.
1. China has a lot more to worry with F35, which has edge over almost J20 in almost all parameters and is entering service with a very high production rate, in addition to the already present F22. Also, the bulk of chinese fleet will remain to be 4G or 4.5 G for near to medium term
2. IF dozens of planes were shot by J20,
a. then small planes like Mig's 21/LCA can also huge damage with long range A2A missiles assisted with AWACs or ground based radars in a
networked environment
b. Ground radars not being able to detect also doesn't show too well about the situation, although not sure if terrain had some role to play
c. Aassuming my interpretation of your text is correct) Doesnt speak too well about your fighter jet tactics
Lastly, request you to please post links or clarify if it is insider info or your opinion
Liu, Man you made my day. Unfortunately, In war it does not matter what most chinese think, because it is not a voting competition.f35 is the low-end 5g bird and is outperformanced by j20 by almost all features.
f22 is the sole match of j20.
most chinese think f35 is a failed project with extreme low costperformance.
Better to say "OK mine is smaller, and let them feel happy".
Ah, but there are many among us (master Shivji, for example) who believes that propaganda is detrimental to the mental. From my standpoint, propaganda is nothing in a kinetic world. No amount of propaganda can change the fact that Unkil surrounds the PRC with bases that can annihilate the chini military within hours of any hostilities, for example.ranjan.rao wrote:Chola,
while i agree with your point, I am not in their favor of their outright ban. they do bring the propadanda which I and presumably many other posters would not have known otherwise.
That said, i see this trait of propagandus to claim "mine is bigger" without telling the height and radius not just here but also on quora, just like Liu has gone quiet on specific points where he thinks F35 is a failure and J30 is a sterling success and only f22 has match and it did shoot down DOZENs of planes. That strongly calls for orderirng more Tejas as that tells the state of their ground and plane radars
Unkil surrounding China is no comfort to the Indian except for the Indian who has a dual identity both as part of unkil as well as Indian - typically one who lives in both worlds due to various reasons. Given that the US is no ally of India in times of distress, Indians without a US connection cannot boast on behalf of the US. Either we cock up and shut up or get into a mine is bigger game.chola wrote: From my standpoint, propaganda is nothing in a kinetic world. No amount of propaganda can change the fact that Unkil surrounds the PRC with bases that can annihilate the chini military within hours of any hostilities, for example.
But for a proper discussion of China it is better to just ban the chinis. There is nothing to gain from having them post. And seriously, I am tired of the same ones anyways.
I hope they can reach South AmericaLiu wrote:
frankly speaking,with enough logistics,sereral PLA battlions are enough to crush most african native arm forces,except a few say south africa and egypt.
that is because yankees are not sure now if they are as ahead of chinese as they thought.shiv wrote:Unkil surrounding China is no comfort to the Indian except for the Indian who has a dual identity both as part of unkil as well as Indian - typically one who lives in both worlds due to various reasons. Given that the US is no ally of India in times of distress, Indians without a US connection cannot boast on behalf of the US. Either we cock up and shut up or get into a mine is bigger game.chola wrote: From my standpoint, propaganda is nothing in a kinetic world. No amount of propaganda can change the fact that Unkil surrounds the PRC with bases that can annihilate the chini military within hours of any hostilities, for example.
But for a proper discussion of China it is better to just ban the chinis. There is nothing to gain from having them post. And seriously, I am tired of the same ones anyways.
Chinese propaganda from Liu has basically boasted about dominating everything - but in the last 15 years Chinese propaganda has gradually moved away from mocking the Indian to challenging the US.
Just like Indians are provoked by the Chinese to respond with a "mine is bigger", I am increasingly noticing that Americans too are now responding to China with "mine is bigger". The "twin identity" Indian-US person can always reject mocking of India by pointing out that America is bigger, nyahaha. But the fact is that the Chinese are successfully provoking responses from Americans.
Both banning and claiming that America is bigger and better are useless in my opinion. Right or wrong I see the Chinese playing a game that sets them up with a psychological advantage. They have suckered India in this game for decades and it is a game that Indians don't play well - a game of highlighting and exaggerating Indian achievements.
The US however is already master at this game. Despite Liu's denials - he is wrong. Just in the past 2-3 months there has been news of an exercise where the F-22 won hands down against legacy US fighters because they could not see the F-22 and so they had to put radar signal enhancing devices on the F-22 to balance things out a bit
And guess what - just a few weeks later we have Liu and the Chinese coming out with EXACTLY the same story. First the J-20 put up that pathetic and shameful display at Zhuhai - but it was notable because it had radar signature enhancing devices. A sound propaganda ploy - not just a security measure. After all who which foreign nation would have a snooping device in Zhuhai?
And now Liu tells us the same story that the Yanks told us "The <F-22/J-20> showed a 10-1 superiority over opposing forces of <F-15/16/J-11, Su-27)
The US is saying "The future lies with F-35 and F-22" Liu is saying "the future lies with J20 which is == F-22. No need for 4th gen fighters
And Americans are responding and saying "No no no we are better"
In short the Chinese are now challenging the US and their challenges is being validated by the US responding to their boasts. The more the US or American citizens respond, the greater the validation for the Chinese that they have arrived.
Indians can only watch this drama and stay prepared for getting attacked by China on the one hand and a coalition of China+America via Pakistan
In the 1970s and 80s a desperate US decided that they should co-opt China to fight the USSR, and supported Pakistan.
Who knows, if India gets too big for its shoes the US and China may once again cooperate to screw us. So US capabilities versus China are not necessarily reassuring to India
It does not bother me personally if you feel this way. I ruefully admire the Chinese for the pride they have in stuff that may not be great and am sorry that Indians are always running down Indian stuff. Chinese boasting and American propaganda both have the same effect on Indians - that is to increase the amount of self shame and self mockery of the abilities of their own people. This increases American and other foreign business prospects in India and Chinese pride.Liu wrote: obviously, yankees's confidence is decreasing while chinese one is increasing. it is a reflection of power balance.
The meetings, conducted in New Delhi and Kolkata, and the visit have been kept under wraps, but sources confirmed to The Tribune that the Commander of the PLA’s western theatre, Gen Zhao Zongqi, and his delegation was in India for three days — December 8 to 10.
This was the second unpublicised high-level meeting after the annual defence dialogue (ADD) between India and China was conducted without even a word being spoken about it in public on November 8. Defence Secretary G Mohan Kumar and Sun Jianguo, deputy chief of the Joint Staff Department of China’s Central Military Commission, had met in Delhi. The latest round of meetings is the third engagement between the two neighbours in the past five weeks.
Indian Army Chief General Dalbir Singh Suhag had led a military delegation to China on a four-day (Nov 21-Nov 24) visit.
The Western theatre of PLA, carved out following a rejig in November last, covers Xinjiang and Tibet—it is tasked all along the entire 3,488 km un-demarcated Line of Actual Control (LAC) that is the de-facto boundary with India.
The Chinese delegation during its visit to Kolkata met Lt Gen Parveen Bakshi, the Eastern Army Commander and the seniormost commander after General Suhag. In Delhi, Vice Chief of Indian Army Lt Gen Bipin Rawat hosted a banquet for the Chinese delegation and also held talks.
The two sides exchanged views on military-to-military relations between the two countries, especially the cooperation between the PLA Western Theatre Command and the Indian military. The PLA Western theatre has some 4.5 lakh troops, tanks fighter jets, artillery regiments and India matches almost the same number all along the Himalayan divide running in an east-west axis.
The two sides agreed to jointly implement the important consensus reached by leaders of the two countries in May last year when a joint statement at Beijing, after a meeting between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Chinese President Xi Jinping, had spoken about the need to “expand the exchanges between the border commanders, and establish border personnel meeting points at all sectors of the India-China border areas”.
Saar, i give you rs. 10000/- in cash (all legal 100rs notes ) for the above.shiv wrote: It does not bother me personally if you feel this way. I ruefully admire the Chinese for the pride they have in stuff that may not be great and am sorry that Indians are always running down Indian stuff. Chinese boasting and American propaganda both have the same effect on Indians - that is to increase the amount of self shame and self mockery of the abilities of their own people. This increases American and other foreign business prospects in India and Chinese pride.
But if I leave Indian attitudes out of this - I feel more happy for several reasons. The Americans are absolutely ruthless - a degree of ruthlessness that China has never ever used in its history against outsiders. The Chinese have been cruel only to their own people. China will restrict itself to feeling pride at its becoming equal with the US. China does not really want to feel pain.
The US is different. The US has been at war constantly for the last 70 years. They pretend that they are at peace but are constantly hitting someone or the other and they are constantly getting back dead American bodies Other threads on BRF show just how ruthless and callous Americans were in the 1971 war in which India created Bangladesh.
China is actually doing the right thing by restricting US space. Selfishness is the paradigm that rules international relations. The US pretends great power but cuts corners and does deals with anyone if they feel it is convenient. It is important to recall that technology per se does not translate to power. technology helps, but ultimately ruthlessness and the ability to take casualties and cause deaths is what counts. I will not discuss India here - India is a different nation making its own path in a world with nations comparing dick sizes - it used to be US/USSR and now it is US/China
+1 Shiv ji, Looks like chinese communist party has seriously messed up by giving bad loans to Venezuela to the tune of $65 billionshiv wrote:I hope they can reach South AmericaLiu wrote:
frankly speaking,with enough logistics,sereral PLA battlions are enough to crush most african native arm forces,except a few say south africa and egypt.
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/ ... t-4429578/
Hopefully their brand new J-20s will help them to recover their money.Whether crisis-ridden Venezuela will default is a question increasingly on the minds of bond traders. It’s now also one that is getting front-page treatment from China, one of the Latin American country’s biggest financial backers.
On June 11, the People’s Daily -- the mouthpiece paper of China’s Communist Party -- published an article in its overseas edition with the headline “Will Venezuela Default?” After considering its willingness and ability to pay, the author concludes the answer is no and chalks up all the talk about default to media speculation. The article also makes the case for China, whose $3.2 trillion of foreign reserves are the world’s largest, to maintain its support to Venezuela.
“From a long-term perspective, it makes emotional and rational sense for the Chinese side to provide aid within our capacity for partners stuck in economic difficulty like Venezuela,” the article said.
Yet despite its apparent willingness to back Venezuela, Barclays Plc and Exotix Partners LLP are part of a growing group of market watchers that are skeptical that China is truly prepared to increase financing. Over the past decade, China has lent Venezuela about $50 billion, much of it intended to be repaid with oil supplies. But with Venezuela’s economy in tatters and political tensions rising, the country is struggling mightily to stay current on its debt.
“China does not seem willing to increase exposure to Venezuela in the current conditions of political and economic uncertainty,” said Alejandro Arreaza, an analyst at Barclays. “I’d be very surprised if they increase the debt.”
He estimates Venezuela owes about $20 billion to China.
China’s Foreign Ministry didn’t reply to a Bloomberg request for comment on the People’s Daily article and the country’s financial commitment to Venezuela.
Last month, China Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said the country agreed to explore ways to make the financing cooperation with Venezuela “more flexible” as oil prices plunge. On Wednesday, the Foreign Ministry said the two countries have enjoyed "real benefits" from cooperation.
Oil, Economy
Back when China’s appetite for oil and commodities seemed endless, the Asian nation bolstered its influence in Latin America through funding deals with a number of countries. Venezuela sits on the world’s biggest oil reserves.
Venezuela didn’t reply to a request for comment on financing from China. Vice President for Economic Policy Miguel Perez Abad had said in a May interview that China wants to keep supporting Venezuela, and a renewal of a $5 billion loan was likely to be completed in about 60 days.
This comment smells of jealously Darshan ji.Hopefully their brand new J-20s will help them to recover their money.
Not wrong. Just too boring and too much pompous patronization on the part of the advice giver speaking as if no one else knows and has never heard it before. And it was '62MaverickV wrote:Never knew it was so wrong to respect one'e enemy.
We forget the mistakes we made in '61 when Nehru asked the army to 'drive out the chinese intruders'. Such an under-estimation.
Well we all know who was driven out from where and who learnt the lesson, well sorry in our case we did not learn the lesson.
Definitely some of the above are exaggerations just like how US sometimes says that F-25/22 are "invisible"DISCLAIMER: there are rumors
The 2x J-20 had been the aggressors (blue force). During one engagement, the red force had been comprised of AWACS, J-10, J-11, Su-30. There is some confusion here, whether they were J-11/Su-30 or J-16. But the J-10 were at least J-10B, possibly even J-10C. Both KJ-200 and KJ-2000 were part of the exercise but not clear which one was used during that engagements with the J-20. Anyway, at the very early stages of the confrontations, one of the J-20 takes out the AWACS. Once the AWACS was gone J-10s and flankers were completely lost. They were totally unable to locate the J-20. Not clear whether the AWACS itself detected the J-20. All of the Red-force were taken-out by the 2x J-20. It seem even in WVR J-10s and flankers RADARs were unable detect the J-20. There were also rumors about complete confusion between the Red-forces and their ground-control units once the AWACSs were gone. Essentially they were fighting ghosts. And according to more rumors, since things are extremely one-sided, they are planning the bring in counter-stealth assets to even the odds (Probably RADARs JY-50 and systems like DWL001/DWL002).
So even IF part of this is true, yes, the J-20 has made nice handsome debut but it also shows even with AWACS support, how poorly earlier gen fighters like the J-10, J-11 will fare against 5th gen fighters like the F-22 and F-35. If the engagements involved the KJ-2000 with multiple J-10C and they were unable detect the J-20, that is extremely worrisome. J-10C, KJ-2000, KJ-500 are some of the most advanced assets in the PLAAF.
shiv wrote:Unkil surrounding China is no comfort to the Indian except for the Indian who has a dual identity both as part of unkil as well as Indian - typically one who lives in both worlds due to various reasons. Given that the US is no ally of India in times of distress, Indians without a US connection cannot boast on behalf of the US. Either we cock up and shut up or get into a mine is bigger game.chola wrote: From my standpoint, propaganda is nothing in a kinetic world. No amount of propaganda can change the fact that Unkil surrounds the PRC with bases that can annihilate the chini military within hours of any hostilities, for example.
But for a proper discussion of China it is better to just ban the chinis. There is nothing to gain from having them post. And seriously, I am tired of the same ones anyways.
Chinese propaganda from Liu has basically boasted about dominating everything - but in the last 15 years Chinese propaganda has gradually moved away from mocking the Indian to challenging the US.
Just like Indians are provoked by the Chinese to respond with a "mine is bigger", I am increasingly noticing that Americans too are now responding to China with "mine is bigger". The "twin identity" Indian-US person can always reject mocking of India by pointing out that America is bigger, nyahaha. But the fact is that the Chinese are successfully provoking responses from Americans.
Both banning and claiming that America is bigger and better are useless in my opinion. Right or wrong I soee the Chinese playing a game that sets them up with a psychological advantage. They have suckered India in this game for decades and it is a game that Indians don't play well - a game of highlighting and exaggerating Indian achievements.
You are not the first Indian to rise up indignantly to protect America's honour when the said honour appears to have been slighted by an unworthy individual. You are only the latest. Sorry if you don't like my opinion. I don't agree with your opinion but I have no emotions about them and see no need for you to agree with me.chola wrote:
As for the US surrounding China and your dismissal of it, why would you ignore the fact that China is bottled up and castrated by a superior force with forward based firepower all around it? Why wouldn't that affect India when the chini's war machine is pretty outmatched actoss the board by the US and its allies?
Or do you secretly like to self-flagellate by listening to chini propaganda and ignoring the fact that the PRC can't make a move without worrying about the US? The PRC is shit in a world of American, Japanese and South Korea kinetic firepower, Shivji. Propaganda is not real but steel is.
Ban the chinis and their propaganda so we can have a proper discussion.
Sorry. My opinions remain as they are. China is rising or pretending to rise and Americans are getting upset making a change from the days when only Indians used to get upset and Americans were dismissive. But the Chinese copy the same tactics as the US to highlight their power - and Americans, who had a monopoly on that are upset. I only wish Indians would learn.Propaganda is not real but steel is.
When Hitler invaded Poland, he made a grave miscalculation, no one in the Reich expected the allies to declare war over Poland. As a result, the conflict initiation happened a few years before the Kriegsmarine or even the Wehrmacht was really ready for conflict. Its a different matter that the German general staff and war plans were so good that they were able to defeat the allies in Europe.Austin wrote:Beijing seizes US underwater drone in South China Sea
https://www.rt.com/usa/370559-china-us-drone-sea/
Unstable until the chinis hand the drone back just like they did with the EP-3 back in the days of GW.sudeepj wrote:When Hitler invaded Poland, he made a grave miscalculation, no one in the Reich expected the allies to declare war over Poland. As a result, the conflict initiation happened a few years before the Kriegsmarine or even the Wehrmacht was really ready for conflict. Its a different matter that the German general staff and war plans were so good that they were able to defeat the allies in Europe.Austin wrote:Beijing seizes US underwater drone in South China Sea
https://www.rt.com/usa/370559-china-us-drone-sea/
When the history of this era is written, I think people will generally agree that Xi Jinping initiated conflict when he was not really ready to face the US Navy. Even if he gets away with it, this may be the Czechslovakia moment, when his goals and methods become crystal clear to the world. China's rise is not going to be peaceful and it intends to challenge the US supremacy over the sea.
Very unstable situation..
Nice summation Shivji.Much appreciated on your valuable data points. The dhimmitude is brazen and shocking. I always wonder if it is solely a result of colonial influence or there is more to it than meets the eye.shiv wrote:Darshan, before you criticize China you need to have a disclaimer of your own - like this one
viewtopic.php?p=2043132#p2043132
More than one point that you have been lectured about is also mentioned in the disclaimer. This happens so often that I always make it a point to test the waters and post the disclaimer if I am going to mock China or else "Blam!" some Indian will lecture you. Mao's re-education camps must have bee like this