India-US relations: News and Discussions III

[Mort Walker]

Nandan Nelikani states that global trade us nearly dead, manufacturing will not create jobs (because of over capacity in China), so India will have to depend on services sector that too within the nation.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7280&start=5760#p2094165

So, there you go.

The guy is smoking some serious stuff. India needs massive manufacturing within country be it for consumer or defense goods. It will not only generate employment, but create a larger knowledge base than the service industry.

[NRao]

Apology. False news (in honor of my President-elect)(or sitting President?).

Should have been at one restaurant.
.

thanks - philly is as third world a city you can get in US - and unions are powerful so would be surprised if any automation was done here

plus I use it all the time and see no difference.

There is one that is automated. I sent a picture of the process to an investor friend who wanted ideas.

Not true. Indians were first declared a minority for federal contracting rules in 1978.

That is Carter era.

[NRao]

I think India and the US are perhaps the only two nations that are economically 'self contained'. Not saying that they can expect huge growth, but they do not need to rely on others to do well.

???????

On a different note, what is the feel for geopolitics in the region under Trump? Looking for trends, not specifics, although that is welcome too.

[Hitesh]

Democrats also lost the Presidency for much of forty years for supporting civil rights and enabling the immigration bill that allowed hundreds of thousands of Indians and other non-whites to migrate to the USA.

Not true. From 1960-2016, the presidency has been divided evenly between both parties. In the same time period, the US congress has been mostly in the hands of the Democratic Party. No doubt many Republicans are racists, but it was under GWB that India-US relations began to really improve. Today's Democratic Party has become an anti-national party and have successfully been labeled as such. Governors in some 33 states are now Republican with a Republican controlled state assemblies. Things can change and until the Democratic Party drop their anti-national agenda, they will continue to lose.

Only in your opinion they are considered anti-national. They are considered anti-national because the whites presume to be the nation and the minorities are not really part of the nation but on the fringe. The Democrats were the first ones to recognize that the minorities are part of the nation and they must be included. Even though the Republicans were the party that abolished slavery, they never really considered blacks as part of the nation and consistently excluded the blacks and minorities from representation at every opportunity and even were seriously contemplating deporting the blacks back to Africa.

Advocating for better rights for all citizens, not just the whites cannot be considered anti-national. You have fell hook, line, and sinker for the alt right movement's BS narrative.

[Dipanker]

Beside, nationwide the democrats have the bigger coalition, both in terms of numbers and diversity. If we look at the last 7 presidential elections, Republicans have lost the majority/popular votes 6 times out of 7! 2004 is an exception because a sitting president is not voted out while he is in the middle of war he started.

Nationwide Republicans are a minority now and a minority group can not call majority group's positions on issues anti-national.

[Mort Walker]

^^^It is not my opinion, but based in fact. Take a look at many states in the US, even on the coasts, the Democratic Party is losing state elections. It is the ALT-LEFT propaganda that some people are buying in to.

[Mort Walker]

Beside, nationwide the democrats have the bigger coalition, both in terms of numbers and diversity. If we look at the last 7 presidential elections, Republicans have lost the majority/popular votes 6 times out of 7! 2004 is an exception because a sitting president is not voted out while he is in the middle of war he started.

Nationwide Republicans are a minority now and a minority group can not call majority group's positions on issues anti-national.

How convienient to find an excuse in 2004. GWB was hated in 2004 and was easily beatable by the Democratic Party, but instead they chose to nominate Lurch who is a clueless elitist.

Trump said it right, if it was to be a popularity contest and not an electoral contest, then campaigns would have been different. The Democratic Party has chosen to use class, race, and gender issues as the basis of their political goals. Less so economic issues. It was Bill Clinton that brought the party back to the core issues of economics and employment. If the Democratic Party doesn't follow BC's advice, they will lose again in 2020 and 2024. Until then please don't get you chaadis in a twist.

[Dipanker]

So what? Trump said it right, if it was to be a popularity contest and not an electoral contest, then campaigns would have been different.

Are you saying that Trump who had historically low popularity rating of 36%, would have ran a different type of campaign and become more popular ? Sure!

[Mort Walker]

^^^Yup. Celebrity Apprentice style. Kanye would have been his running mate instead of Pence.

[pankajs]

So Trumpet is being *forced* to open a case against Hillary!

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/a ... ils-232990
Appeals court revives suits over Hillary Clinton emails

A federal appeals court has revived a pair of lawsuits seeking to force the federal government to sue former Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in a quest to try to recover more emails from the private server she used while secretary of state.

A three-judge panel of the District of Columbia Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously Tuesday that a lower court judge erred when he threw out the cases as moot after the State Department received tens of thousands of emails from Clinton and more from the FBI following the criminal investigation it conducted.

[Mort Walker]

^^^Not Trumpets, but rather 3-judge panel. What HRC did as SoS was criminal, any other federal employee would have been fired and faced felony charges including a 5 year jail sentence. David Petraus was prosecuted for a lesser crime and paid $100K penalty with 2 year probation.

[Kashi]

I don't speak Hindi so don't fully understand your quote. But only the GOP disputes the role the Democrats played in expanding civil and economic rights to African Americans. The Democratic vote bank was the racist vote bank and they could be milking it today. They chose not do so. And Indian immigration to the USA is one benefit.

If you believe that the modern day GOP would have passed the 1967 Immigration Act, you are mistaken.

I don't have an in depth understanding of US politics and political history, so I have no way of telling who would have done what. But when people start talking about "sacrifices" made by political parties, I feel that merits a small chuckle and a rejoinder. If there's one cardinal rule out there, it is that politics is not about sacrificing yourself for others, but sacrificing others for you.

You talk about the Democratic votebank, pray tell me what constitutes the democratic votebank as of today? The very same immigrants and their progeny among others. And you say "Indian immigration to the USA is one benefit." Benefit to whom? Indian immigrants were looking for better opportunities than they could find in India, USA had them and also it needed more people of varying calibres to take up the tasks that their own people were unwilling or unable to take up. What's so altruistic about it? It's a mutually beneficial relationship- One gives you money and shelter in exchange for knowledge and skills.

This thread is about Indo-US relations, so let us keep it that way shall we?

[Prem]

Not Indo US but interesting development
Breaking News Alert ‏@PzFeed 14m14 minutes ago
BREAKING NEWS: U.S. EXPELS 35 RUSSIAN DIPLOMATS IN WASHINGTON AND SAN FRANCISCO. THEY HAVE 72 HOURS TO LEAVE.

[kit]

thats the response to Russia s hacking of the US elections

[GShankar]

thats the response to Russia s hacking of the US elections

Not just the response. But another gift to DT. Normalizing ties with Rus is not going to be easy. This could also be a reason why DT claimed in teetar that roadblocks are being put in place.

[Yagnasri]

DT may be an idiot and all that, but he won the elections as per the rules of the game. As far as poular vote is concerned, the same is known to every one from the start. Then why weep now when they lose. They can change the system even now. I do not say any effort on that till date from Dem side.

Neo-cons are on full flow as of now. More may come soon.

[IndraD]

RT ‏@RT_com 1h1 hour ago
'Violation of the #ViennaConvention: #Obama kicking out diplomats breaches intl law - #Wikileaks https://on.rt.com/7z6q
#sanctions

[Cosmo_R]

Nandan Nilekani states that global trade us nearly dead, manufacturing will not create jobs (because of over capacity in China), so India will have to depend on services sector that too within the nation.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7280&start=5760#p2094165

So, there you go.

That is exactly why NaMo wants MII for defense. It's manufacturing employment. And it's why LM and Boeing are pitching their wares. The world has long ago passed by India as the next China. It is now solely our domestic demand that can underpin exports. It's a small window and I'm sure we will manage to miss it. We always have.

[NRao]

Nandan Nilekani states that global trade us nearly dead, manufacturing will not create jobs (because of over capacity in China), so India will have to depend on services sector that too within the nation.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7280&start=5760#p2094165

So, there you go.

That is exactly why NaMo wants MII for defense. It's manufacturing employment. And it's why LM and Boeing are pitching their wares. The world has long ago passed by India as the next China. It is now solely our domestic demand that can underpin exports. It's a small window and I'm sure we will manage to miss it. We always have.

I was a LOT more confident until a few hours ago.

India - I think - needs a InExit. Pretty much everyone is closing their borders to trade. India cannot afford to open hers. That too to keep others nose above water and let Indian ones sink.

On the F-teens or any other plane, India needs to demand the entire set of techs, expecting to absorb the entire production. If something appears on the horizon down the pike then recalculate.




OT for this thread. CPEC is DoA. Who the craps are they going to trade with if India keeps out?

[Cosmo_R]

^^^techs to do what? If it's the ability to churn out 30 a/c a month as LM did with the F-16, I'm for it. If its for stuff like the APG-81, forget it we don't have either the industrial capacity nor the human (R&D) to do it.

We are importing assault rifles not for the lack of tech but for the lack of of tech to make it in quantity day in day out.

What LM is offering IIUC, is the ability to pay for the 100 a/c order with exports and the training of people to make high tech stuff in quantity which creates an ecosystem.

But he=y! we can close our borders to this but we diminish our ability to defend them.

[chanakyaa]

... Pretty much everyone is closing their borders to trade. India cannot afford to open hers. That too to keep others nose above water and let Indian ones sink...

Out of curiosity...what are the data points (other than youtube clips) that suggest everyone are closing borders to trade?

[komal]

... Pretty much everyone is closing their borders to trade. India cannot afford to open hers. That too to keep others nose above water and let Indian ones sink...

Out of curiosity...what are the data points (other than youtube clips) that suggest everyone are closing borders to trade?

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/c ... flatlined/

[chanakyaa]

Thank you. Looks like the underlying data to Stockman's chart going back to 2000 is available on CPB's website below

CPB World trade monitor

The webpage has a spreadsheet with all the data point, including massive dip post-2008. Easy to put together a spreadsheet chart. Assuming the data is correct, why do you think the last 2 years of data (not adjusting for other macro factors and wars, sanctions etc etc) is sufficient to conclude that it is purely a result of de-globalisation or everyone closing trade door?

[Neshant]

The Russia hacking circus is being pushed forward because the powers that be want to pass a law for US govt to counter "propaganda".

However the "propaganda" they want to target is more so domestic than foreign. Namely domestic bloggers and other independent posters of information & opinions who don't jive with the official state narrative.

Its a back door way of "cracking down" on free speech now that CNN & other legacy media has lost their ability to influence the public & election outcomes.

What you are going to see is a flood of Machine Learning Troll & Spam bots trying to post messages and influence reader opinions with fake commentary and fake news. Posters of so called subversive opinions will be trolled by these bots and their websites/blogs clogged up and/or shut down via denial of service attacks. All under the banner of fighting foreign propaganda which is a loose and broad definition.

[Austin]

Response from Russian Embassy

https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/stat ... 7230271489

[komal]

And you say "Indian immigration to the USA is one benefit." Benefit to whom? Indian immigrants were looking for better opportunities than they could find in India, USA had them and also it needed more people of varying calibres to take up the tasks that their own people were unwilling or unable to take up. What's so altruistic about it? It's a mutually beneficial relationship- One gives you money and shelter in exchange for knowledge and skills.

This thread is about Indo-US relations, so let us keep it that way shall we?

Agree there was mutual benefit. In fact, the USA benefited much from all the IITs. I doubt the moon launch would have been successful if not for Indians. IBM/INTEL have acknowledged how the 1967 act increased their productivity.

LBJ jettisoned his vote bank (southern whites) to expand immigration knowing full well that economic benefits will accrue decades later. The price the Democratic Party paid for LBJ's civil rights policies was loss of the Presidency (save for 1 term) between 1968 and 1992. Southern whites were furious (and still are) that people of color do more than shine shoes.

[Austin]

The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries

[Raj]

Agree there was mutual benefit. In fact, the USA benefited much from all the IITs. I doubt the moon launch would have been successful if not for Indians. IBM/INTEL have acknowledged how the 1967 act increased their productivity.
.

Could you please tell, how Indians had any significant role in "moon launch"?
Here is the list of "moon launches" per wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_the_Moon

[komal]

Agree there was mutual benefit. In fact, the USA benefited much from all the IITs. I doubt the moon launch would have been successful if not for Indians. IBM/INTEL have acknowledged how the 1967 act increased their productivity.
.

Could you please tell, how Indians had any significant role in "moon launch"?
Here is the list of "moon launches" per wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_the_Moon

I stand corrected. There were no Indians at NASA in Greenbelt.

[UlanBatori]

Could you please tell, how Indians had any significant role in "moon launch"?
Here is the list of "moon launches" per wiki.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_the_Moon

I stand corrected. There were no Indians at NASA in Greenbelt.

How shocking can the lack of awareness be, hain? Mullah Kaleem Kawaja, IIT KGP grad, was Manager of NASA in Maryland only in the 1960s. He built all the pakistans in NASA Goddard Research Center, per the glowing biography written by his wife's son. And without pakistans, hain, how could NASA function, let alone softland on the Moon, I ask you? Q.E.D.

[krisna]

And you say "Indian immigration to the USA is one benefit." Benefit to whom? Indian immigrants were looking for better opportunities than they could find in India, USA had them and also it needed more people of varying calibres to take up the tasks that their own people were unwilling or unable to take up. What's so altruistic about it? It's a mutually beneficial relationship- One gives you money and shelter in exchange for knowledge and skills.

This thread is about Indo-US relations, so let us keep it that way shall we?

Agree there was mutual benefit. In fact, the USA benefited much from all the IITs. I doubt the moon launch would have been successful if not for Indians. IBM/INTEL have acknowledged how the 1967 act increased their productivity.

LBJ jettisoned his vote bank (southern whites) to expand immigration knowing full well that economic benefits will accrue decades later. The price the Democratic Party paid for LBJ's civil rights policies was loss of the Presidency (save for 1 term) between 1968 and 1992. Southern whites were furious (and still are) that people of color do more than shine shoes.

may be OT but does have some meaning possibly here.

I will quote tangentially the above wrt Indian migration wrt doctors.

The reason for any country to allow foreigners should be acute. No country allows others to enter their own. Be it India America uk Europe middle east etc etc. They want everything for themselves.

But due to population economy etc they need people to do the jobs ---could be simple as in middle east as labourers or highly skilled as in Europe or America.(Mexicans/latinos take care of low skilled jobs here. In Nato nations ,muslim migrants and eastern Europe do this)

It benefits the host as in middle east or western nations in taking these foreigners.

It is highly advantageous for local to have foreigners. They establish rules and regulations to make sure the foreigners conform to what they want them to do. In return they make sure they are paid for their services.


wrt Indians -
The payment is key for many nations inlcuding Indian citizens to go all places. They are found in all corners of the world. checking Internet will help. even in isolated places with poor facilitiers Indians have made a name for themselves. They are wealth generators wherever they go

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wrt America, due to acute shortage of doctors due to their own inability to produce at enough pace to keep up with population they were forced to shed their anti immigration of colored persons. It is often said necessity is mother of invention. here due to shortage to their the American population they created immigration of skilled people.

The skilled people came from various countries including India.

---------------------------------------------------
Poorer nations educated their citizens at considerable cost (in relation to gdp and other socioeconomic indictaoirs) but America snared them with better payments for services. unfortunately these skills are western based educational system. (Traditonal system and culture are destroyed in asia Africa due to less finance and subversion by gunga dins with fat packet from western nations. India is one of them here. Every poorer country has its gunga dins including India.)

It is hugely cheaper to acquire non americans for doctors to treat americans than producing americans themselves.


-----------------------------------------------------
The cause for the above though undesirable to many americans is the destruction of family structure in various forms . This resulted in many becoming less skilled and less support with more money debts etc.

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Hence the simple answer is stealing from other countries legally.
The poorer countries could not match it whatever they do. This can be reversed only if these poorer countries rise in economy but current powers does not allow any country to rise above certain level.

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talking about individual party in usa is useless exercise like intellectual masturbation.

[komal]

And they have the moon on their flag. what more proof is needed??

[TSJones]

sigh....we're such simple folk......I don't know what we would w/o our South Asians......we'd still be sloppin' the pigs and ridin' mules.

[GShankar]

to all sdre, given room to 'rub', 'rubbed' you will.

sigh....we're such simple folk......I don't know what we would w/o our South Asians......we'd still be sloppin' the pigs and ridin' mules.

tsj, when you say "we", not sure who are all included there . Hindus (what else is sooth asia?) may not may not be included there but I am sure it is a healthy mix of germans and their 'scientists' (who are not germans)

[UlanBatori]

^^ U mean, EAT the pigs and bu**** the mules, surely?

I thought it was dem Mexicans and Salvadorans that know any more how to "slop the pigs and ridin' mules".
BTW, a Happy (Eyetalian) New Year!

[A_Gupta]

China mocks Trump (photo from buzzfeed)


The China state newspaper Global Times has this:
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1026442.shtml

Less than one month before China's year of the rooster arrives and US President-elect Donald Trump takes office, he has made a celebratory appearance in China. Recently in Taiyuan, capital of North China's Shanxi Province, a giant rooster statue with Trump's signature hairstyle and tiny hand gestures was erected in front of a local shopping mall, and will be used as a mascot.

Many netizens in and outside China were amazed by the "cute" and "hilarious" rooster. A Twitter user based in New York even suggested China present a replica of the rooster as a friendship gift at Trump's inauguration ceremony and it be placed on the White House lawn.

Since the doppelganger rooster will predictably get popular, as Trump-related products often do, a series of rooster replicas will be offered for sale in the future, with some already being sold on Taobao, according to CNN.

In November, a picture of a pheasant sporting a similar hairstyle to Trump went viral in China. Actually, it is not just the Chinese that like to make fun of the real estate mogul-turned reality TV star. People around the world have found a variety of plants and animals that look like the billionaire, especially his infamous swept-up hairstyle, including corn, a half-cut pimento, a dog and an ostrich.

It is quite unusual for a US president-elect to be mocked so often and so widely, with people making light of his candidacy across the world right from the very beginning. No one seems able to tell what part of the rhetoric and deeds by the unruly and outspoken businessman can be taken seriously, and no one, not even the most intelligent and experienced political analyst, can say for sure what the unpredictable president-elect will do in the first year he is in office.

Trump's emergence suggests there will be a huge plunge in the US' famed soft power, to the worry of many US officials and lawmakers. The US has always boasted of offering a level playground that enables everyone to fulfill their American dream, and stayed open to the outside world.

But unfortunately, the president-elect is showing hostility to immigration, women's rights and international responsibility, and is expected to steer the country inward.

As Shashi Tharoor, former UN under-secretary-general, wrote in an article titled "The end of US soft power?" Trump's win has "exposed and encouraged tendencies the world never used to associate with the US: xenophobia, misogyny, pessimism, and selfishness."

Joseph Nye coined the concept of "soft power" to describe a country's ability to attract and co-opt in noncoercive ways. But as the US tends to increasingly present itself as divided, isolated and unpredictable under Trump's presidency, perhaps the only thing that will attract and lighten up the world is being able to mock the eccentric and bombastic president.

[durvasa]

Chinese people have full fleedom to make fun of every leadel in the world as long as he's not their own!

[Singha]

in other news, foxconn reports that it has automated some 40k jobs and will do more. when electronic gear assembly is fully automated (it needs higher capex but less opex and no labour issues), cannot such manufacturing be done more cheaply in massa, japan, europe itself - less cost of transport in ships from china, tighter integration with OEM, probably good tax breaks and cheaper electricity and water....


http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/30/1412 ... ufacturing

Foxconn, the Taiwanese manufacturing giant behind Apple’s iPhone and numerous other major electronics devices, aims to automate away a vast majority of its human employees, according to a report from DigiTimes. Dai Jia-peng, the general manager of Foxconn’s automation committee, says the company has a three-phase plan in place to automate its Chinese factories using software and in-house robotics units, known as Foxbots.

FOXCONN PRODUCES 10,000 FOXBOTS A YEAR FOR AUTOMATION PURPOSES
The first phase of Foxconn’s automation plans involve replacing the work that is either dangerous or involves repetitious labor humans are unwilling to do. The second phase involves improving efficiency by streamlining production lines to reduce the number of excess robots in use. The third and final phase involves automating entire factories, “with only a minimal number of workers assigned for production, logistics, testing, and inspection processes,” according to Jia-peng.
....
The slow and steady march of manufacturing automation has been in place at Foxconn for years. The company said last year that it had set a benchmark of 30 percent automation at its Chinese factories by 2020. The company can now produce around 10,000 Foxbots a year, Jia-peng says, all of which can be used to replace human labor. In March, Foxconn said it had automated away 60,000 jobs at one of its factories.

In the long term, robots are cheaper than human labor. However, the initial investment can be costly. It’s also difficult, expensive, and time consuming to program robots to perform multiple tasks, or to reprogram a robot to perform tasks outside its original function. That is why, in labor markets like China, human workers have thus far been cheaper than robots. To stay competitive though, Foxconn understands it will have to transition to automation.

FOXCONN HOPES TO AUTOMATE 30 PERCENT OF ALL FACTORY WORK BY 2020

Complicating the matter is the Chinese government, which has incentivized human employment in the country. In areas like Chengdu, Shenzhen, and Zhengzhou, local governments have doled out billions of dollars in bonuses, energy contracts, and public infrastructure to Foxconn to allow the company to expand. As of last year, Foxconn employed as many as 1.2 million people, making it one of the largest employers in the world. More than 1 million of those workers reside in China, often at elaborate, city-like campuses that house and feed employees.

In an in-depth report published yesterday, The New York Times detailed these government incentivizes for Foxconn’s Zhengzhou factory, its largest and most capable plant that produces 500,000 iPhones a day and is known locally as “iPhone City.” According to Foxconn’s Jia-peng, the Zhengzhou factory has some production lines already at the second automation phase and on track to become fully automated in a few years’ time. So it may not be long before one of China’s largest employers will be forced to grapple with its automation ambitions and the benefits it receives to transform rural parts of the country into industrial powerhouses.

There is, however, a central side effect to automation that would specifically benefit a company like Foxconn. The manufacturer has been plagued by its sometimes abysmal worker conditions and a high rate of employee suicide. So much so in fact that Foxconn had to install suicide netting at factories throughout China and take measures to protect itself against employee litigation. By replacing humans with robots, Foxconn would relieve itself of any issues stemming from its treatment of workers without having to actually improve living and working conditions or increase wages. But in doing so, it will ultimately end up putting hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people out of work.

[Singha]

almost anything that is manufactured by hand labour now can be automated by robots at current levels of technology.

but for cheap seaonally variant stuff like clothes and shoes and toys may not be worth it to buy such costly robots.

for costly stuff like electronics I think so.

stuff like cars are already made using highly automated processes except relics like enfield motors which proudly wears its handmade status on its sleeves.

[Yagnasri]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 281795.cms

Are we sending AD there? Serious step to promote relations under DT if this report is true,