China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 25 Dec 2016 08:17

Chola, no more of OT in this thread. Take it to China Watch thread. svinayak and GShankar too.

The chinese posters are relevant in this forum as long as they post links or photos that are related with the thread topic. If it is just opinion posts or illegible ones (aka chinese language clips or sites with just writeups), it shall be chucked out.

If China wants us to be aware of its awesomeness, it better put more effort in informing us, because we are not going to learn mandarin for shivering purposes

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 25 Dec 2016 09:51

THE BUZZ
The Chinese Army's Sneaky Ploy to Take Over China's Military

Michael Peck
December 23, 2016
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After decades as primarily a ground force with the world’s army (go tell China to never fight a land war in Asia), the Chinese military is reorienting itself toward an air-sea conflict in waters such as the South China Sea. For more than a decade, it has been China’s air and naval forces that have growing in budget and stature, while the army has not.

Yet two China scholars ask a perceptive question: Why is the Chinese army going along with these reforms? As we well know from the U.S. military, no service ever voluntarily cedes power to another. It would be like the U.S. Army telling Congress, “cut our budget and give the Air Force more money.”

The answer, the scholars suggest, may actually be Machiavellian. The Chinese army is going along with the reforms because it actually believes it will gain more power from them.

In an article in Joint Forces Quarterly, Phillip Saunders and John Chen begin their analysis by noting the decline within the People’s Liberation Army—the general name for Chinese military—of the PLA Army (PLAA), the ground force component of the PLA and traditionally the dominant service.

“Most of the 300,000 troops that will be cut from the PLA will come from army ranks. Moreover, the army is widely perceived as the likely loser in current PLA organizational reforms,” Saunders and Chen write. “Elimination of the general departments and establishment of a new army commander and headquarters reduced the army to bureaucratic equality with the other services. The PLAA also lost direct control of space and cyber units, which were transferred to the new Strategic Support Force.”

The army does not control—or has lost control—of assets that would be the cutting edge of Chinese attempts to project beyond its borders. “The army does not have rapid reaction airborne forces or the strategic lift capabilities needed to move forces beyond China’s land borders—paratroopers and strategic airlift assets both belong to the air force,” note the authors. “The PLAA does not operate long-range surface-to-air missiles that can defend Chinese airspace, does not command conventional or nuclear missile forces that can enable power projection or deter nuclear attack, and has now ceded space and command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance missions to the Strategic Support Force."

Even for ground-centric operations like invading Taiwan, China now emphasizes Western-style joint operations. The People’s Liberation Army Navy Marine Corps—the oxymoronic title of the Chinese navy’s ground force—is the lead organization for amphibious operation in the South China Sea.

So why is the army content to take a back seat? Saunders and Chen suggest a few possibilities. One is that the Chinese military was modeled after the Soviet military, where the Red Army didn’t control ballistic missiles, air defense and paratroopers, either. China’s army may also have focused too much on modernizing its forces for conventional land warfare rather than preparing for a new wave of joint operations. And while the PLAA may have been resting on its laurels as the senior service, the navy and air force were busy asserting their independence and priority, and they are not about to cede control to the army.

Yet all of this might just be a smokescreen for a sneaky bureaucratic maneuver worthy of the most devious backroom wheeling and dealing in the Pentagon.

“The military reforms could be interpreted as a way for the PLAA to reassert its strategic relevance and expand its control over other parts of the PLA,” say Saunders and Chen. For example, China’s Central Military Commission Joint Staff Department, responsible for joint operations, is commanded by the army’s former chief of staff, while all five theater commands are commanded by army officers.

“The new joint C2 [command and control] structure gives these army officers full operational command over forces from all services during both war and peacetime,” the authors write. Under the old system, military region commanders didn’t exercise peacetime operational control over navy, air force and strategic missile forces. Now, the navy and air force headquarters no longer have an operational command role. The army is also likely to define the qualifications for joint command positions in a way that favors army officers.

However, while this may be good for the Chinese army, it may not be good for China. The joint operations systems may not turn out to be joint. “The current PLA approach of placing joint C2 mechanisms at the theater command level injects an army commander into the operational chain of command even if the mission does not require it,” Saunders and Chen warn. “An army general heading the Southern Theater Command may not be best qualified to command forces in South China Sea maritime disputes; his presence in the chain of command adds an extra layer that subordinates must navigate to include other services in planning and conducting operations."

To an American, this is somewhat reassuring. China’s military services scheme to maximize their power just as America’s military services do when it comes to things like who controls fixed-wing aircraft, or nuclear weapons.

East or West, some things never change

National Interest... Need to understand in detail for its implications for India

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 25 Dec 2016 10:08

However, while this may be good for the Chinese army, it may not be good for China. The joint operations systems may not turn out to be joint. “The current PLA approach of placing joint C2 mechanisms at the theater command level injects an army commander into the operational chain of command even if the mission does not require it,” Saunders and Chen warn. “An army general heading the Southern Theater Command may not be best qualified to command forces in South China Sea maritime disputes; his presence in the chain of command adds an extra layer that subordinates must navigate to include other services in planning and conducting operations."

+±+++++++

Not much change for India front. A PLA general will head the Indian front as it is primarily a ground warfare centric theater.

But looks like PLA is fighting back hard against XI's transgressions.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 27 Dec 2016 00:09

China tests new jet fighter FC-31 Gyrfalcon prototype: Report

BEIJING: China has tested the latest version of its fifth-generation stealth fighter, state media reported Monday, as it tries to end the West's monopoly on the world's most advanced warplanes.

The test comes as the nation flexes its military muscles, sending its sole aircraft carrier the Liaoning into the western Pacific in recent days to lead drills there for the first time+ .

The newest version of the J-31 -- now renamed the FC-31 Gyrfalcon -- took to the air for the first time Friday, the China Daily reported.The so-called "fifth-generation" twin-engine jet is China's answer to the US F-35, the world's most technically advanced fighter.

The new FC-31 has "better stealth capabilities, improved electronic equipment and a larger payload capacity" than the previous version+ which debuted in October 2012, the newspaper said, quoting aviation expert Wu Peixin.
"Changes were made to the airframe, wings and vertical tails which make it leaner, lighter and more manoeuvrable," Wu told the paper.

The jet is manufactured by Shenyang Aircraft Corp., a subsidiary of the Aviation Industry Corp of China (AVIC).
The fighter is expected to sell for around $70 million, the article said, aiming to take market share away from more expensive fourth-generation fighters like the Eurofighter Typhoon.

AVIC has said that the FC-31 will "put an end to some nations' monopolies on the fifth-generation fighter jet", the China Daily reported.China is aggressively moving to develop its domestic weapons industry, from drones and anti-aircraft systems to homegrown jet engines.

In the past it has been accused of copying designs from Russian fighters, and some analysts say the FC-31 bears a close resemblance to the F-35.When completed the FC-31 will become the country's second fifth-generation fighter after the J-20+ , which put on its first public performance at the Zhuhai Air Show in November.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 28 Dec 2016 17:17

China Maritime Studies Institute | Andrew Erickson: China's Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile (ASBM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en_tqlaOeqw

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Dec 2016 10:27

Saurav Jha ‏@SJha1618 now9 seconds ago
Chinese intrusions along the Line of Actual Control are reportedly 'down'. Might be indicative of a focus on Taiwan.

To support my arguement that West is/likely to be unsuccessful in diverting Chinese priorities away from securing its sea lanes to picking up a fight with India. Xi is investing China's money into their navy to secure their sea lanes. We should reciprocate by building up the most powerful army in Asia.

We have a 10 year window to shore up our defenses and neuter Bangladesh. Chance of a lifetime....

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Dec 2016 12:07

Ryan Martinson ‏@rdmartinson88 13h13 hours ago
Ryan Martinson Retweeted Lyle Morris
Including 1 destroyer, 9 frigates/corvettes, 5 LSTs and 3 large auxiliaries. Anybody know tonnage of new USN ships commissioned in 2016?

Lyle Morris ‏@LyleJMorris 13h13 hours ago
China's navy added 150,000t to inventory in 2016, according to official stats released today http://www.guancha.cn/military-affairs/ ... 6783.shtml … remarkable clip.

List of PLAN ships commissioned in 2016!

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/-H2h64FC1JXkIsCEQtqMZQ

Translate into English

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jan 2017 15:29

Decoys made in China - these are good
https://twitter.com/xinfengcao/status/8 ... 2223964160

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jan 2017 17:05

^^ Quite good , Looks as good as the real one

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Jan 2017 18:44

China launches academy to boost aero-engine research and development

The newly established Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) has launched a research institute that aims to support the country's efforts to build powerplants for its front-line military/commercial aircraft.

The Aero Engine Academy of China is located in Beijing and will be responsible for leading AECC's research and development (R&D) activities, said AECC chairman Cao Jianguo in comments to China's state-run Xinhua news agency on 28 December.

The Aviation Industry of China (AVIC), which played a key role in the establishment of AECC earlier this year, said in a statement that the new academy will "accelerate" China's development of aero-engines and related technologies.

This will be achieved, it said, through integrating Chinese aero-engine R&D capability, enhancing related manufacturing technologies, and providing AECC with "strong technical support".

The AECC was formally launched in August. It is owned by several state-owned groups, including AVIC, and was formed through a merger of several aero-engine companies formally owned by AVIC.

Underscoring the size and scope of China's aerospace industry, AECC has registered capital of CNY50 billion (USD7.6 billion) and employs around 96,000 workers. The corporation is responsible for the design, development, production and support of military and commercial aircraft engines for fixed- and rotary-wing aircraft.

The new aero-engine academy is expected to amalgamate several related R&D facilities that were previously operated by the AVIC subsidiaries that merged to form AECC.

In this sense, the new academy will comply with Beijing's continuing strategy to maximise efficiencies across the country's defence industrial base by merging assets in a bid to promote innovation and capability advancement. It can be argued that such advancement is required more in China's aero-engine sector than in any other industrial area.

Despite years of investment, China has made only limited breakthroughs in aero-engine production. Front-line Chinese military aircraft are generally powered by Russian and sometimes Ukrainian systems, while in the commercial aerospace sector China's flagship C919 commercial jet airliner, which is scheduled to make its first flight in 2017, will be powered by an engine made by CFM International, a joint venture between GE Aviation and Safran.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Jan 2017 21:48

2016 Was a Big Year for China's Military: Carriers, Missiles and More

As the year ended, China conducted a flight test of a new missile known as the Dong Ning-3 that the Pentagon believes is a missile designed to hit US satellites in space in a crippling attack in the early phases of a conflict that would limit American military forces from navigating forces, pinpointing targets and gathering intelligence......

Adm. Cecil Haney, commander of the Strategic Command at the time, disclosed in a speech in January that China was adding multiple warheads to its missiles and re-engineering its long-range ballistic missiles to carry multiple nuclear warheads.”.......

Also in April, China flight tested its new ultra-high speed strike vehicle known as the DF-ZF – a maneuvering missile stage that is designed to defense missile defenses. It was the seventh flight test of the missile-launched glider and a high priority weapon for the Peoples Liberation Army to deliver nuclear weapons or conduct precision conventional attacks, such as against ships at sea.....

Li said the Chinese military is preparing for a major buildup of cyber warfare capabilities, not merely a tinkering of current structures that will complement conventional and other forces. “In the 21st century, seizing control of cyberspace is of decisive significance, like seizing control of the sea in the 19th century and seizing control of the air in the 20th century,” Li said. “Cyber operations in the future will follow the new battlefield rules determined by the winning mechanisms of ‘real-time sensing, sensitive response, source destruction and chain cutoff, joint winning.’”...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jan 2017 21:52

Gps sats are in high orbits along some 6 or 8 orbital planes. Each plane has some 4 sats.
If cheen attacks 2 planes ie some 8 sats over the scs and coast its no gps over there

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Jan 2017 22:00

Singha wrote:Gps sats are in high orbits along some 6 or 8 orbital planes. Each plane has some 4 sats.
If cheen attacks 2 planes ie some 8 sats over the scs and coast its no gps over there

Not just China but others could threaten GPS access as well. There is a reason that the fastest and most well funded programs currently under the 3rd offset are those that tackle the problems of communicating, navigating, targeting and maintaining command and control in a GPS degraded or totally denied environment. Demonstrations and Wargaming has already occurred on a few new technologies with more to come over rate next 3-5 years.

A few examples:

http://www.darpa.mil/program/spatial-te ... vironments

http://www.darpa.mil/program/program-in ... ngineering

http://www.darpa.mil/program/micro-tech ... and-timing

See THIS Presentation from DARPA for more on each program.

Background and Description of the program described above, from DARPA. Northrop Grumman is currently working towards a set of technologies with demonstrations on weapons planned in a couple of years.

The DoD relies on GPS for accurate and ubiquitous positioning, navigation, and timing (PNT) across all platforms and systems. GPS-based PNT is increasingly contested due to the prevalence of natural and manmade threats to GPS signal integrity, therefore intensifying the demand for alternative robust sources of PNT data. Inertial navigation, based on the technique of dead reckoning, is particularly relevant in that it is unjammable and is independent of external infrastructure.

The Precise Robust Inertial Guidance for Munitions (PRIGM) program is exemplary of the GPS- free navigation challenge because the operating environment and platform dynamics of munitions are among the most rigorous and demanding of DoD applications. PRIGM: Advanced Inertial Micro Sensors (AIMS) is the second of two PRIGM BAAs. The first, PRIGM:NGIMU [1], addresses navigation of glide munitions in localized GPS-denied theaters. The greater challenges associated with precision navigation of all platforms in a GPS-denied world is the subject of this BAA. PRIGM:AIMS addresses the challenges associated with navigation through gun launch, navigation of spin-stabilized munitions, and long-duration missions lasting up to 20 minutes. Together, these requirements place rigorous demands on the robustness, stability, and dynamic range of inertial sensors, which cannot be accomplished with any existing technology at any CSWaP.

Recent developments in precision fabrication of highly symmetric MEMS structures, integrated photonics, and optical measurement of force and position create new opportunities for novel modalities for sensing rotation and acceleration, the building blocks of inertial navigation. In particular, fabrication and design of highly symmetric two- or three-dimensional, Class-I, MEMS-based Coriolis Vibratory Gyroscopes (CVG) [2] enable rate-integrating gyroscopes, where the output is directly observable as angle rather than rotation rate, thereby providing unprecedented high dynamic range and high linearity. Advances in photonic-CMOS integration and low-loss, on-chip photonic waveguides enable integrated single-chip resonant or interferometric waveguide optical gyroscopes, similar in principle to ring-laser or fiber-optic Sagnac-effect gyroscopes, but with significantly higher mechanical integrity and lower CSWaP.

Recent experiments of position and force sensing of MEMS devices using optical interrogation techniques have demonstrated extraordinary measurement precision, which enables the possibility of building much stiffer, higher-bandwidth and more environmentally robust MEMS devices, as well as providing intrinsic self-calibration based on optical wavelength stability. The objective of PRIGM:AIMS is to exploit these recent developments, separately or in combination, along with other novel concepts for sensing rotation and acceleration, to significantly transform the trade space of low-CSWaP technologies for inertial sensing.

Of particular interest to PRIGM:AIMS are novel low-CSWaP inertial sensing modalities that provide increased capabilities for:
1) Navigation through high-shock and high-vibration events with high dynamic range, low- noise, and high accuracy.
2) Inertial sensors with negligible degradation of zero-rate output or scale factor calibration under conditions of high shock, high vibration, ambient temperature excursion, long-term storage, or power cycling.
3) Navigation of highly dynamic platforms for mission durations of >20 minutes, with endpoint accuracy of <10 meters RMS.

The goal of PRIGM:AIMS is to develop technology for micro-inertial sensing that is capable of achieving beyond navigation-grade performance, even in the presence of extreme dynamic environments. Proposals should target unprecedented sensitivity, dynamic range, and bandwidth for low-CSWaP inertial sensing. Candidate technologies include, but are not limited to, rate- integrating MEMS gyroscopes, waveguide optical gyroscopes, and optically interrogated MEMS gyroscopes and accelerometers. Other novel technologies are encouraged, but proposals must provide analysis of the underlying physics, and their relevance and uniqueness for achieving the program objectives. PRIGM:AIMS is specifically not interested in conventional MEMS approaches (CVG class II [2]) or in evolutionary algorithmic approaches to improving the performance of existing devices or systems.

The objective of PRIGM:AIMS is to develop inertial sensors demonstrating feasibility of meeting future navigation needs in a GPS-free world. PRIGM:AIMS is soliciting proposals in two technical areas. Technical Area 1 develops sensors suitable for navigation of platforms exhibiting the most demanding dynamics of military platforms with short durations, less than 180 seconds. Technical Area 2 develops sensors with unprecedented precision and stability for navigation of platforms with mission durations on the order of 1000 seconds experiencing mild dynamics.

GPS was a DARPA run technology enabled answer to a set of problems and challenges in the military domain. Those problems, challenges and requirements aren't going to go away so it will be incumbent on the militaries of the world to find other ways of obtaining the same if one source is threatened.

Then there is also an offensive component to this. Most big players on the world military stage currently have or are developing the capability to reciprocate equally or at a higher intensity if there space infrastrcuture is challenged or attacked. It's not going to be long ( a few decades?) before they start thinking about armed escort of key space infrastructure. If you decide to go down that path and put H2K interceptors for terminal ASAT warhead defense you can probably do it in under 2 decades with policy likely the biggest challenge (as opposed to technology).

Command and Control and near-real time Communication is an easier challenge with already operationally fielded capability nodes capable of handling back-up challenges if and when required.

Here is one example. Northrop's BACN payload, onboard the Global Hawk can take an IFDL link from an F-22A, and transmit it over Link-16 to a USAF F-15 or an F-16. Similarly, it can take a NIFC-CA enabled Growler's TNTT system and broadcast that information to an F-22A or B-2 flying somewhere else. HALE offers quite an extensive horizon. The basic BACN payload is platform agnostic. For all we know a version could be onboard the RQ-180 to provide this capability in areas where the global-hawk cannot operate. The next challenge is to have hard computing, ISR processing and produce rapid C2 and EW solutions on the fly and transmit them back through these types of air assets. The idea is to not have to wait for certain parameters be piped back to land, have the data processed and then disseminated across the tactical fleet. That will take some time but cognitive abilities are being pursued and big data leveraged to solving a lot of this problems whether it's in the under-sea domain, land or in the air.

The biggest threat isn't that the entire constellation would be knocked out in a doomsday scenario but that there will be constant, persistent jamming and cyber activities aimed at degrading performance.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 02 Jan 2017 22:32

Believe USAF has a command dedicated to space defense.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jan 2017 23:01

^^ Yep....Air Force Space Command....
http://www.afspc.af.mil/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Jan 2017 19:11

Since the IN td is temp. locked, here goes:
No could've,it didn't enter the IOR for a holiday cruise!
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese- ... rt-1645798

Chinese Nuclear Submarine At Karachi Could Have Spied On India's Warships
All India | Written by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 06, 2017
Chinese Nuclear Submarine At Karachi Could Have Spied On India's Warships
A Chinese nuclear submarine docked in a Karachi harbour in May 2016 photographed on Google Earth.
NEW DELHI:

Satellite image shows nuclear submarine docked at Karachi in 2016
China has been challenging India's dominance in Indian Ocean
Submarine at Karachi is China's most advanced
Hours after NDTV reported that a Chinese nuclear submarine had been placed, through a satellite image, at Karachi last year, top sources in the Indian navy said that the submarine is from the most advanced and latest class built by China.

The Type 093 Shang submarine, docked at the Karachi harbor, is likely being used to scrutinize the movements of Indian warships far more closely than ever before at a time when China is competing with India for domination of the Indian Ocean.

Unlike conventional submarines, nuclear-powered submarines have an unlimited range of operations since their nuclear reactors rarely require to be refuelled. This means the submarines, which are armed with torpedoes and cruise missiles, can be deployed underwater for extended durations where they are difficult to track.

The Karachi image was spotted first by a satellite imagery expert (Twitter handle @rajfortyseven) and can be accessed by clicking on the historical imagery icon on Google Earth and scrolling back to May 2016.

The Chinese submarine at Karachi is estimated to displace 7,000 tonnes when it operates underwater and is armed with six torpedo tubes from which sophisticated anti-ship missiles can be fired. It's unclear if the submarine can also launch cruise missiles to hit targets on land. It is equipped with sophisticated sonars to detect and lock on to enemy ships and submarines. Chinese sources have indicated that the submarine is as quiet under water as variants of the US Navy Los Angeles Class, widely considered among the most silent and difficult to detect nuclear submarines.

An image posted on twitter by Duam Dang, a journalist who works with the Vietnamese daily Thanh Nien, reportedly shows the same submarine returning to Chinese waters a month later (June 2016) while crossing through the Malacca Straits off the coast of Singapore.

chinese type 093 shang class submarine
A Chinese Type 093 'Shang' class submarine, possibly the same boat to have docked in Karachi, spotted in the Malacca straits a month later in June 2016. (Source: @duandang)
China's aggression in the Indian Ocean, strategically crucial for India's security, has been a growing concern. Last month, Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba said, "As far as People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy ships and submarines are concerned, the Indian Navy keeps a close eye and monitor their movements. We launch surveillance missions in the form of aircraft and ships to keep a track of them."

For the last few years, the Indian Navy has been convinced that the presence of Chinese nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean is part of a carefully-choreographed exercise to expand Beijing's military presence in the region. Senior Navy officers NDTV has spoken to reject China's earlier assertions that its submarine deployment has been in aid of the anti-piracy mission off the coast of Somalia.

What is clear, however, is that a great game of underwater subterfuge, a feature of the Cold War, is presently underway in the Indian Ocean. To operate in the Indian Ocean, Chinese submarines need to sail through either the Malacca, Lombok or Sunda Straits where the shallow depth of the waters international regulations mean that they have to remain surfaced or visible.

This gives regional navies, including the Indian Navy, the ability to monitor the movement of Chinese submarines before they can dive to depths where tracking them is far more difficult. Indian Navy officers have told NDTV that the addition of the new version of the US-built P-8 aircraft have been a game-changer and a key asset in tracking Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean. The P-8 is Washington's most advanced submarine-hunting weapon, equipped with sensors that can track and identify submarines by sonar and other means.

Over the last decade, Pakistan has strengthened its naval links with China, its biggest international partner. In August last year, Pakistan State Radio announced a deal to acquire eight Chinese conventional diesel-electric powered submarines. The first four submarines are expected to be delivered by the end of 2023, while the others will be assembled in Karachi by 2028. Perhaps most significantly, China has access to Pakistan's strategic Gwadar port, central to the $46 billion China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) that is under development, in addition to its own recently constructed naval base in Djibouti situation in the Horn of Africa.

Farooq · Post by **Farooq** » 07 Jan 2017 15:30

May have been discussed here but this news is from 6th Jan dating back to events in May '16

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/chinese- ... rt-1645798

NEW DELHI:
HIGHLIGHTS
Satellite image shows nuclear submarine docked at Karachi in 2016
China has been challenging India's dominance in Indian Ocean
Submarine at Karachi is China's most advanced
Hours after NDTV reported that a Chinese nuclear submarine had been placed, through a satellite image, at Karachi last year, top sources in the Indian navy said that the submarine is from the most advanced and latest class built by China.

The Type 093 Shang submarine, docked at the Karachi harbor, is likely being used to scrutinize the movements of Indian warships far more closely than ever before at a time when China is competing with India for domination of the Indian Ocean.

Unlike conventional submarines, nuclear-powered submarines have an unlimited range of operations since their nuclear reactors rarely require to be refuelled. This means the submarines, which are armed with torpedoes and cruise missiles, can be deployed underwater for extended durations where they are difficult to track.

The Karachi image was spotted first by a satellite imagery expert (Twitter handle @rajfortyseven) and can be accessed by clicking on the historical imagery icon on Google Earth and scrolling back to May 2016.

The Chinese submarine at Karachi is estimated to displace 7,000 tonnes when it operates underwater and is armed with six torpedo tubes from which sophisticated anti-ship missiles can be fired. It's unclear if the submarine can also launch cruise missiles to hit targets on land. It is equipped with sophisticated sonars to detect and lock on to enemy ships and submarines. Chinese sources have indicated that the submarine is as quiet under water as variants of the US Navy Los Angeles Class, widely considered among the most silent and difficult to detect nuclear submarines.

An image posted on twitter by Duam Dang, a journalist who works with the Vietnamese daily Thanh Nien, reportedly shows the same submarine returning to Chinese waters a month later (June 2016) while crossing through the Malacca Straits off the coast of Singapore.
...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Jan 2017 19:59

X-posted from 'Managing Chinese Threat' thread:

China could own a third aircraft carrier - Atul Aneja, The Hindu

China is expected to “own” a third aircraft carrier in the near future, the People’s Daily online reported, quoting a leading naval expert.

The website quoted Liang Fang, a military expert as saying that “the Chinese military’s combat capability has grown by leaps and bounds in the past decade”.

He added: “At present, China’s second aircraft carrier is under construction. In the near future, the Chinese Navy is expected to own a third aircraft carrier strike group, capable of safeguarding territorial sovereignty and maritime rights.”

Current carrier

A website affiliated with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) also relayed the report.

China has so far deployed Liaoning, its sole, aircraft carrier — an import from Ukraine — whose prime purpose is to impart training, so that a skilled core of personnel is developed, capable of marshalling more combat-worthy aircraft carriers of the future.

“While the Liaoning is far from a game-changer in the naval balance of power in the region, it has been efficiently utilised as a training platform to educate the foundational core of officers, sailors and airmen that will build the future Chinese aircraft carrier force,” says Brian Kalman, a military analyst, on the website South Front.

Analysts say that the focus on aircraft carriers marks a doctrinal shift, allowing China to gradually transition towards exercising “sea control” far away from shores. At present the Chinese Navy is in a “sea denial” mode, focused on deterring external forces from intruding into Chinese waters.

Mr. Liang pointed out that though Chinese aircraft carrier strike group is not comparable with its U.S. counterpart in tonnage or number of aircraft, it can nevertheless boast of stamina and a bright future. He stressed that “from the perspective of future development, the U.S. military clearly lacks stamina, and the country’s insufficient military spending is proof of that. In addition, frequent problems with U.S. Navy Super Hornet, F-35C and other carrier-borne fighters have seriously hampered the aircraft carriers’ combat capability.”

U.S. deployments

The website highlighted China’s assertiveness, in the wake of upcoming naval deployments in the western Pacific by the U.S. Navy.

“On the first day of the new year, a fleet headed by aircraft carrier Liaoning held drills in the South China Sea. Around the same time, news was released that the USS Carl Vinson, a nuclear-powered American aircraft carrier, would deploy from San Diego, California to the Western Pacific region.”

China’s second aircraft carrier, CV-17 is currently at an advanced stage of construction at Dalian Shipbuilding in northeastern China.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Jan 2017 20:51

I would be surprised if India did not have the floor of the Bay of Bengal and Arabian sea peppered with listening devices that would hear Chinese sailors farting in their sub

Once the sub exposes itself in port it will be watched every day and shadowed when it leaves..

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 07 Jan 2017 21:38

Philip wrote:A Chinese nuclear submarine docked in a Karachi harbour in May 2016 photographed on Google Earth.

Strange that it took an image from GoogleEarth (circa May 2016) to expose the nuclear sub in a jihadi hotspot like k'rachi. It's sitting out there openly in broad view. I am sure western and Indian satellites and ground based intelligence have been watching this situation evolve.

Surely the pakis and chinis are up to something. Perhaps na-pakis getting their hands-on-training on a nuclear sub as the first step? Maybe the chinis have an understanding with the rentier state to lease them a nuclear sub? Or is it just a plain and simple nuclear blackmail which the pakis are famous for?

Didn't India lease its first nuclear sub from the soviets in the '80s?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 07 Jan 2017 21:55

anupmisra wrote:
Philip wrote:A Chinese nuclear submarine docked in a Karachi harbour in May 2016 photographed on Google Earth.
Strange that it took an image from GoogleEarth (circa May 2016) to expose the nuclear sub in a jihadi hotspot like k'rachi. It's sitting out there openly in broad view. I am sure western and Indian satellites and ground based intelligence have been watching this situation evolve.

Surely the pakis and chinis are up to something. Perhaps na-pakis getting their hands-on-training on a nuclear sub as the first step? Maybe the chinis have an understanding with the rentier state to lease them a nuclear sub? Or is it just a plain and simple nuclear blackmail which the pakis are famous for?

Didn't India lease its first nuclear sub from the soviets in the '80s?

Do you really think the chinese will risk leasing/renting their nuclear sub to pakis to go against IN? IMO, this is just a show of friendship.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jan 2017 22:00

for h&d reasons perhaps one could be leased out - if not the 093 then atleast a Han!

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 08 Jan 2017 11:08

Karthik S wrote:Do you really think the chinese will risk leasing/renting their nuclear sub to pakis to go against IN? IMO, this is just a show of friendship.

Sure. Where is the risk? Who is going to complain? India? Complain to who?

The chinese recently threatened to up the ante and provide the pakis with ICBMs to match India's missile development. Hear anyone complain? Pakis are just useful pawns in this game of one-upmanship between India and China. What stops the chinese in providing hands on training to the pakis in one of their subs parked in the open for everyone, especially the Indians, to see, and then follow up with an older Type 091 submarine on a "wet lease" (co-managed by PLAN and PN personnel)?

nits · Post by **nits** » 08 Jan 2017 12:27

Austin wrote:^^ Quite good , Looks as good as the real one

they are anyways good in copying stuff

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Jan 2017 12:39

Karthik S wrote:Do you really think the chinese will risk leasing/renting their nuclear sub to pakis to go against IN? IMO, this is just a show of friendship.

Why not, Karthik? After all, China specializes in defying the world, proliferation, ~~South~~Indo-China Sea, NSG, UNSC 1267 etc without a care. It has been only a matter of time for a Chinese n-sub to appear in PN colours, for quite sometime now. A Han-class sub is likely to be transferred to PN. The PN Chiefs have been giving some hints for sometime now.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Jan 2017 19:23

SSridhar wrote:
Karthik S wrote:Do you really think the chinese will risk leasing/renting their nuclear sub to pakis to go against IN? IMO, this is just a show of friendship.
Why not, Karthik? After all, China specializes in defying the world, proliferation, ~~South~~Indo-China Sea, NSG, UNSC 1267 etc without a care. It has been only a matter of time for a Chinese n-sub to appear in PN colours, for quite sometime now. A Han-class sub is likely to be transferred to PN. The PN Chiefs have been giving some hints for sometime now.

I get your point Sridhar. What is the probability of IN sinking this SSN in the first few hours or day of any conflict? Proliferating technology is one thing but to lease a nuclear submarine that will go against a formidable navy with good chance that it will be sunk is another. I am not a technical person in this regard but as someone mentioned that we probably would have installed our sensors in sea beds and considering the chinese subs are not among the silent submarines around, I personally think we'd be able to track the sub using various intelligence sources. Even if don't have the acoustic signature of chinese SSNs, would they risk us discovering it? Again, my point is that why would the chinese risk losing their rented sub to us if they know there is a high probability of them losing it. If their motive is to cause maximum damage to IN ships, I'd think they'll go with supplying cruise missiles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Jan 2017 21:25

China presents flying wing stealth drone projects in Zhuhai

Some B-2 style stealth unmanned aerial vehicles appeared at this 11th edition of Airshow China, being held until Nov. 6 in Zhuhai. Among them are the Star Glory SG-1 concept, showcased by the Chinese company Star UAV System Co. Ltd and the CH-805 designed by China Academy of Aerospace Aerodynamics.

The Star Glory SG-1 and the CH-805 adopt a stealth design which seems directly inspired from the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit stealth bomber. They both feature a stealthy design and are powered by two engines inside the main fuselage with air inlets at the front and exhaust at the back.

If the China Academy of Aerospace Aerodynamics didn’t disclosed more details about its project, the Beijing company revealed a few details about its own concept that may foreshadow the technical specifications of the Academy one.

According to Star UAV System is to features a 15 m wingspan, a length of 6.8 m and an overall height of 1.8 m. Its two engines will give it a maximum speed of 650 km/h and a cruise speed of 600 km/h.

The SG-1 will have an endurance of 8 hours within an operational ceiling of 12,000 m. The operators will be able to control it in a radius of 2,000 km. The whole UAV will have a take-off weight of 4,000 kg and will be designed to carry up to 400 kg of payload.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 08 Jan 2017 21:35

While they innovate & develop, all we do is import and do screw-driver level assembly.

The industry has no chance to develop an R&D ecosystem as every project is quickly killed before it enters mass production - with foreign planes/tanks quickly imported.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 09 Jan 2017 00:30

Because India is full of traitors that praise phoren maal (junk) and diss local systems.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2017 07:21

I believe it is not necessary to come on to the China thread, look at the images and discussion and then collapse into a mess of regret, jealousy and self flagellation of India, Indians and Indian systems.

I am always amazed at the way my countrymen collapse into a state of frustrated helplessness and anxiety on reading about China, even as we insist on placing ourselves as second rate or third rate in comparison to everyone else. Our missiles are not as efficient as other missiles. Our programs don't work. We are weak. We are walking towards defeat. If this is "constructive criticism" i have not seen any positive result from this in 2 decades. We still bash ourselves and get bashed in every sphere from society to population, rapes, corruption, nutrition, tolerance of others, public defecation and military. This seems to define our national character.

At least part of what China displays is designed to provoke fear and jealousy - so I believe that we should reserve our cries of self criticism to appropriate threads like drdo thread, Indian aviation/navy thread etc. Let us stick to talking about the Chinese weapons and systems here. Let us take our national character of howling self flagellation to other threads and not treat our Chinese visitors to an open display of how inferior we see ourselves.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jan 2017 07:32

the FCS sw of these flying wing designs with less control surfaces & restricted airflow into engine must be pretty tricky. I wonder how they handle stall with the air intakes above and well behind the LERX area, wont it break airflow even at 25' aoa ?

chola · Post by **chola** » 09 Jan 2017 07:36

Vivek K wrote:Because India is full of traitors that praise phoren maal (junk) and diss local systems.

Shivji, as raja of the BR jingoes, you can try to get me banned once again but I'll say my one piece.

It has nothing to do with traitors and everything to do with mistaken calculus of the threat levels. We are always in the we must have the "best" (on the market) mode. We need the best "immediately" to deal with paki and cheen -- neither of whom are first rate military nations. The porkis we defeat handily every time and the PLA had not fought a true war in four decades.

Meanwhile, the chinis perservered with home grown projects even when faced with far more formidable warrior nations -- US, Japan, Taiwan (who actually and inducted a homegrown fighters decades before the LCA) and Vietnam (who clobbered the chinis the last time they fought.)

That is the real difference between us and them. They cheat, lie and steal to get their J-copies in the air. But in the end, they are theirs to change and enhance as they see fit. While we cannot do the same with the MKI and from the looks of things we'll be locked in same type of relationship on the PAK-FA.

The truth is we have plenty of time for home-grown solutions. A decade ago, the LCA and the Kaveri were ahead of the J-10 and WS-10. We wavered and procrastinated while they went ahead. Today where are we now? Two production Tejas vs hundreds of J-10s. No Kaveri vs hundreds of WS-10s. Did we go to war with a major power in the meantime? Let's just follow a damn bharati project through.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Jan 2017 08:06

china is the worlds leading developer and producer of consumer and professional drones too. this kind of skill and production base will surely help their UAV and UCAV efforts

NYT

DJI, the Chinese company that dominates the personal and professional drone market for high-end aerial photography.

DJI’s consumer drones, which sell for $399 to $1,199, have built-in safety measures, including auto-return and landing for when the battery is low, obstacle avoidance and “geofencing,” which prevents a drone from flying near airports, nuclear power plants or other sensitive locations (including anywhere in Washington, D.C.).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2017 08:08

Singha wrote:the FCS sw of these flying wing designs with less control surfaces & restricted airflow into engine must be pretty tricky. I wonder how they handle stall with the air intakes above and well behind the LERX area, wont it break airflow even at 25' aoa ?

After seeing the spectacular OMG flying performance of the J 20 at Zhuhai - I would not ask such questions. The Chinese have everything under control

Please allow me also to digress a bit. Last night I had a dream about 2 small children arguing. One was the son of an F-35 developer and the other the son of an F-35 opponent

F35 kid: It will replace F-15, F-16, A-10 everything. Better than all
Anti-kid: Rubbish F-16 can shoot it down
F35 kid: Nonsense F-35 cant be seen - will win 6:1
Anti-kid: Lies. Too expensive. Too many bugs. Too fat
F35 kid: Best in everything Invisible. Standoff. Endurance Unmatched situational awareness unlike legacy losers you support
Anti-kid: ROFLMAO. It will never replace the A-10
F35 kid: It will and will do a better job

No matter what - both show pride in US made things. Replace this dream with Chinese kid vs American kid and again you will see pride on both sides

Tomorrow I will write about the dream I had about an Indian kid (not) arguing with a Chinese kid and agreeing with everything. Watch this space

</digression>

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Jan 2017 08:13

chola wrote: Shivji, as raja of the BR jingoes, you can try to get me banned once again but I'll say my one piece.

er I didn't "get you banned". You showed your own superlative capability in that department. Please don't waste effort attributing imaginary powers to me on a thread on which we normally put in much effort to praise the Chinese while cursing and criticising India to show the abject contrast between us and the Chinese

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 09 Jan 2017 09:20

Neshant, your contribution in various threads seem to be very generic, one-liner type flame-baits that seem designed to evoke a strong, negative response from others. Please desist.

Other folks, please! This thread is for appreciating the might of China with links, pics and maybe, host an occasional drone hunt. China Watch thread should be the place for discussions on national resolve or lack of one! We already had a meltdown of Navy thread last week, not this one too!

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 09 Jan 2017 11:02

The 3rd 055 destroyer/cruiser under construction, this time at Dalian. Rumor has it that a 4th is under construction as well, also at Dalian.

So we now have 3 055s confirmed under construction and a rumored 4th being built concurrently. It's very unusual for the PLAN to construct so many warships of a new class so quickly. My guess is that these first 4 utilize all mature subsystems, so they're not much more than enlarged 052D's using Liaoning's propulsion.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Jan 2017 13:13

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/china-restarts ... its-711263

https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... t-carrier/

New Naval Power? China Expected to Have 3 Aircraft Carrier Groups in Near Future © Photo: Wikipedia/Voice of America

MILITARY & INTELLIGENCE 21:39 07.01.2017

The Chinese military’s combat capability has significantly grown in the past decade. At present, China’s second aircraft carrier is under construction. According to military expert Liang Fang, the Chinese navy is expected to build its third aircraft carrier battle group in the near future and that would be capable of safeguarding territorial sovereignty and maritime rights, Chinese People’s Daily newspaper reported. Liang further noted that “China is developing its aircraft carrier technology to defend national interests rather than to seek hegemony,” the publication reported. © WIKIPEDIA Chinese Navy Seizes US Underwater Drone in South China Sea - Reports Earlier last week, a fleet headed by aircraft carrier Liaoning held drills in the South China Sea. Around the same time, reports came in stating that the USS Carl Vinson, a nuclear-powered American aircraft carrier, would deploy from San Diego, California to the Western Pacific region. As tension between two powers rise there is a lot of debate ongoing regarding the capabilities of both the navies. The military expert Liang Fang said that although the Chinese aircraft carrier battle group is not comparable with its US counterpart in tonnage or number of aircraft, it nevertheless boasts stamina and a bright future. “From the perspective of future development, the US military clearly lacks stamina and the country's insufficient military spending is proof of that,” Liang told People’s Daily. In addition, frequent problems with US Navy Super Hornet, F-35C and other carrier-borne fighters have seriously hindered the aircraft carriers’ combat capability. In contrast, the Chinese military’s combat capability has grown tremendously in the past decade and continues to grow.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/military/201701 ... t-carrier/

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2017 13:43

It would be a great day, and I hope that day is not far off, when a Google photo is published of INS Arihant docked at Cam Ranh Bay.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 09 Jan 2017 13:55

Karthik S wrote:Again, my point is that why would the chinese risk losing their rented sub to us if they know there is a high probability of them losing it. If their motive is to cause maximum damage to IN ships, I'd think they'll go with supplying cruise missiles.

Karthik, just think of why we leased a bare-metal Chakra for a decade with just Klub. PN needs training in operating a nuclear sub so that when a more formidable n-sub, than a Han-class, would be transferred, there is a reserve of PN officers & men ready to go for just transition training. Which other nation would give the Pakis training on a n-sub? It would be between five & ten years to build up talent. At the same time, the Pakistanis can keep praising the 'sweeter-than-honey' friends for standing thick-and-fast while the Chinese consolidate their strangulating grip even more.