Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

rpartha · Post by **rpartha** » 12 Jan 2017 13:00

Why should we worry about what Global Times has to say on this subject - especially the tenor? Who cares anyway? Probably it is written to the local audience and hence being jingoistic... Is there anything that says that the Chinese are communicating their global policy or conducting their external affairs via Global Times. I understand Global Times is their mouthpiece and it revels their mindset but is there anything that says that we have to worry or react to every piece of junk being written in newspapers like Global Times? Correct me if I am wrong...

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Jan 2017 13:08

We need to do what we are required to counter them. They are not going to be friends of anyone. They are either masters and rulers or enemies. They will not hide or try to hide the fact that they are rulers and they needed to be treated as such. This brash behaviour is going to be a big problem for them in the near future. Like Nazis, CPC had overtly allowed nationalists to raise. Now it can not climb down from that position as most of the Chineses are fed with this Han supremacy and middle kingdom crap for years.

rpartha · Post by **rpartha** » 12 Jan 2017 14:20

^^^ Precisely... We just should keep on building and yes they will try to put as much barricades as possible... There is no way we can back down

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 12 Jan 2017 19:42

Livefist ‏@livefist · 2m2 minutes ago

FIRST LOOK: India's Guided Pinaka rocket system tested successfully today for the first time.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 12 Jan 2017 19:48

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1-ccKbXcAAPIOS.jpg

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 12 Jan 2017 19:48

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1-ccKbXcAAPIOS.jpg

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 12 Jan 2017 19:55

This a test against samudri targets ?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 12 Jan 2017 19:57

This Pinaka thingie is very confusing hard to figure out if they are referring to the Rockets or the system

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 12 Jan 2017 19:58

I wish India would talk less & do more. We kept hearing about how India was going to export Brahmos to Vietnam, nothing has come of it. I suspect China put pressure on Russia to ensure that we cant export to Vietnam. Now we say we will export Akash to Vietnam, why cant we announce it after it has been delivered, why announce it publicly & potentially years before the actual delivery? What do we achieve?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Jan 2017 20:08

What is the range of this guided Pinaka?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Jan 2017 20:11

arunsrinivasan wrote:I wish India would talk less & do more. We kept hearing about how India was going to export Brahmos to Vietnam, nothing has come of it. I suspect China put pressure on Russia to ensure that we cant export to Vietnam. Now we say we will export Akash to Vietnam, why cant we announce it after it has been delivered, why announce it publicly & potentially years before the actual delivery? What do we achieve?

To send a message may be.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Jan 2017 20:58

Messaging has to stop and deliveries should begin. China's continuing supply of military and strategic weapons to Pak suggests messaging has not worked.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Jan 2017 21:04

Saurabh Jha on Agni V.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/588 ... power.html

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 12 Jan 2017 21:18

arunsrinivasan wrote:I wish India would talk less & do more. We kept hearing about how India was going to export Brahmos to Vietnam, nothing has come of it. I suspect China put pressure on Russia to ensure that we cant export to Vietnam. Now we say we will export Akash to Vietnam, why cant we announce it after it has been delivered, why announce it publicly & potentially years before the actual delivery? What do we achieve?

It could be misinformation, what if Akash was already sold/gifted to Vietnam 10-months back and by putting such info that "India is trying to sell xyz to Vietnam" we may be testing how much the chinks know.

Basically don't react to something you read in the news.. this is first order thinking

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jan 2017 21:21

ashishvikas wrote:^^ Images & News are getting leaked from Development labs is a matter of concern. IMHO, maximum secrecy should be maintained.

No need for concern. there is nothing secret that anyone can gain from the above picture.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 12 Jan 2017 21:43

Supratik wrote:Messaging has to stop and deliveries should begin. China's continuing supply of military and strategic weapons to Pak suggests messaging has not worked.

China doesn't send messages, then send deliveries to pakis

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Jan 2017 21:52

Those pictures are not leaked. It was a fortnight before Nirbhay's first launch. Pallava Bagla was given exclusive access to ADE to generate a video report. VK Saraswat, the then DRDO chief was present in that report standing right in front of the missile with the reporter.

Two days before that Tarmak007 was also given exclusive access to the cite to take pictures and write a report.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 12 Jan 2017 23:20

Supratik wrote:What is the range of this guided Pinaka?

Talking about the improvements done to the Pinaka, a multi-barrel rocket laucher system that has a range of 30 kilometers, he said, “Today, we have already successfully test fired a guided Pinaka for 65 kilometers. This will provide a tremendous boost to the capability of the armed forces, once it goes into production,” the minister said.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... r-4471113/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2017 01:20

ranjan.rao wrote:Rakesh sir, from whatever little followed this and other related forums, all the five points have been flogged, my question was regarding the news items that tried to portray failure of Nirbhay test due to tussle between different departments(may not be their exact words)

The tussle is due to whom to assign the root cause for the failure. Hardware or software? Or a third one of metallurgy!

John · Post by **John** » 13 Jan 2017 01:33

arunsrinivasan wrote:I wish India would talk less & do more. We kept hearing about how India was going to export Brahmos to Vietnam, nothing has come of it. I suspect China put pressure on Russia to ensure that we cant export to Vietnam. Now we say we will export Akash to Vietnam, why cant we announce it after it has been delivered, why announce it publicly & potentially years before the actual delivery? What do we achieve?

Vietnam choose Bastion (ground based Yakhont) over Brahmos and have already inducted the system. DDM keeps spewing out old news.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 13 Jan 2017 04:52

Yagnasri wrote:We need to do what we are required to counter them. They are not going to be friends of anyone. They are either masters and rulers or enemies. They will not hide or try to hide the fact that they are rulers and they needed to be treated as such. This brash behaviour is going to be a big problem for them in the near future. Like Nazis, CPC had overtly allowed nationalists to raise. Now it can not climb down from that position as most of the Chineses are fed with this Han supremacy and middle kingdom crap for years.

True. You should also see what fiction the young Han are reading. Chinese online novels have a reader base of over 200 million. In those novels, the MC's freely go around killing millions along with the occasional rape. This is what is portrayed as a hero in their novels.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2017 05:49

Hoping to hear about Astra tests today or tomorrow.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Jan 2017 06:27

I do not understand this 'tested for the first time' guided Pinaka.

Pinaka Mk- II missiles, with a range of 55 Kms, were successfully tested at the Pokhran range in July 2013. Pinaka II is a 214 mm guided rocket whose development was announced by the DRDO as completed after a series of tests at Chandipur between 9th and 12th December, 2014. The Pinaka Mk II rocket has pre-frag, incendiary, practice and three types of submunition warheads. According to reports then, a total of 20 rockets were fired in the four-day-long trial to ranges of 20-60 km. Though these missiles have been tested to ranges beyond 60 Kms, DRDO is not revealing the exact range. The Honeywell TALIN 2000 inertial navigator is supposed to be fitted on these.

During Modi’s September visit to the US in c. 2014, a deal was signed between DRDO and Honeywell Corp. to install the latter’s TALIN 2000 (Tactical Advanced Land Inertial Navigator) which can guide a weapon to hit a designated target with near-zero error, to be fitted on the Akash (as well as Pinaka). This is being manufactured in India by TATA Power SED. Honeywell has been authorized by the US government to share this technology for manufacture in India (apart from Germany, the only other country) but for use only by the Indian armed forces. The agreement will be extended to cover Honeywell's TALIN 3000, 4000 and 5000 products, which offer varying capabilities to suit a wide range of operational requirements.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jan 2017 06:42

SS are you sure its the TALIN that is being used for Pinaka Mk-II? TALIN seems more like a navigation system for military vehicles, tanks etc. Maybe used for the launch vehicle to feed coordinates?

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Jan 2017 23:11

Delay in wing deployment caused Nirbhay missile’s third failure

By: By Anantha Krishnan M13 Jan 2017, 08:40 pm

Bengaluru: The recent failed mission of subsonic cruise missile Nirbhay is pointing towards a slight ‘pause’ (delay) during the process of wing deployment. This malfunctioning of the mechanism that deploys the wing appears to have resulted in the missile developing a very high roll-rate, which led to the Inertial Navigation System (INS) losing its frame of reference. This caused the missile to veer away from its intended flight path, leading to a situation which called for aborting the mission from safety considerations.

Sources within the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), who reviewed the video footage of the missile’s failed flight, confirmed to Mathrubhumi that the wing is normally deployed in less than 500 milli-seconds (0.5 sec.) after booster burn-out and separation of the booster section from the main missile.

“In the previous missions, we have been achieving the wing deployment in around 300-350 milli-seconds. This time the wing seems to have got stuck at 60 degrees position for about 1.5 seconds causing the damage. This is what we have assessed so far. The missile appears to have developed the high roll rate due to the partially deployed wing”, an official said.

{ Lets see: 1.5/0.500 = 3 i.e the wing deployment was off by 3 times. And at its velocity depending on the aerodynamics induced roll.}

During the vertical launch of the missile the booster fires for about 10 seconds, resulting in the missile gaining height and acceleration. It is in this phase that the Thrust Vector Control (TVC) system rotates the missile from vertical to horizontal attitude. On burn-out of the booster, the booster section is detached from the main missile by activation of pyro-bolts. Small thrusters ensure that the detached section separates safely from the main missile.

The Onboard Computer (OBC), which manages all these critical events, initiates the wing deployment process after separation of the booster section. After wing deployment, the cruise phase engine is started, which takes about six seconds to develop the operational speed (RPM) and thrust required to sustain the flight of the missile.
“At this point the control system puts the missile through a constant altitude phase for a short duration before initiating the pre-programmed way-point navigation phase of the mission,” says the official.

{So even engine speed could be off in those six seconds.}

One perfect mission and three misses so far

During the first launch of Nirbhay, the output from one of the sensors of the INS froze for a short duration.
Though a redundant sensor was available, the navigation system lost its reference and the missile deviated from its intended flight path. After about 15 minutes of flight from ‘range safety considerations,’ the mission had to be aborted by destroying the missile.

{ so as it happened before it was easy to jump to conclusions that INS did it again!}

The second launch of the missile was a success and the missile travelled for about 72 minutes covering around 1050 km, meeting all mission objectives.

The third mission again failed owing to a malfunction of the control system. Incidentally, it is understood from reliable sources that the particular system had indicated a problem during the pre-launch checks, during the countdown. The launch was delayed by a few hours, and the system was cleared when it was seen to be working after some investigation.

“The missile went through the launch phase, but the control system failed during the flight. This probably points to avoidable haste in clearing the system and inadequate implementation of quality standards and procedures,” says the official. He said the DRDO is working on a digital controller for the actuator to replace the control box which caused the failure.

{This probably explains the inputs to Hemant Rout that control system gaps were not yet taken care of and the flight date is being rushed. Since the root cause is not the control system the fears were misplaced. I wish the Flight Review committee had taken this digital controller vs control box issue as not a hold back for conducting the flight test.}

During the fourth recent flight, the wing appears to have rubbed against a supporting bush and was held in that position for a short duration of time, which caused a pause in the deployment process. “The video from the 4th flight and the telemetry data clearly show the pause,” says the official.

Sources say there could be flaws in the details of design implementation. With most of the components being ‘fabricated’ in small numbers, rather than being ‘manufactured’ in larger quantities, there are quality concerns as well.

“The chaltha-hain attitude of those at the assembly lines after some initial success, is also a cause of worry,” says the official.

ADE has no rift with Missile Complex team

When asked about the widely-talked about rift between Team Nirbhay at Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) and those linked to the project from the Missile Complex at Hyderabad, the official said: “We haven’t faced such issues. There could be a difference of perspective which cannot be termed as rift. This is a project sanctioned to the Aero cluster and the Missile Complex has always extended whole-hearted support.”

For Nirbhay, the booster comes from ASL (Hyderabad); while the thrust vector control system and INS is from RCI (Hyderabad) and the launcher from R&D Engineers (Pune). The booster is designed by ASL (Hyderabad); the propellant comes from HEMRL (Pune) and the power plant is from a foreign source. The missile’s total system design and integration is done at ADE, Bengaluru.

DRDO’s DG (Aero) C P Ramanarayanan did not respond to repeated calls on his mobile for an official version. He is said to have been pulled by the Defence Minister and the PMO soon after details of the failed mission was out in the media.
Despite three failures in four missions, the Ministry of Defence is understood to have extended the PDC (Probable Date of Completion) by another one-and-a-half years (till mid of 2018). In the last 12 years, around Rs 120 crore has been spent on this project.
{ This is average Rs 10 crores/year. about $1.6 M/ year. What can you do for that in a missile project in the world? Zilch. Point to note is for a project sanctioned 2004-2005 (12 years ago) the first flight was in 2013. So the detail design and sub-systems were developed during those 7-8 years. After that 1 flight every year 2014, 2015, & 2016. Which is pretty good effort.}

Insiders in ADE say that inadequate PDCs are killing the project. “More time and money should be given for this project. Repeated extension of the project with incremental PDCs makes it impossible for the team to effectively process procurements and outsourced developments within available time-frame. Whenever procurement is cleared, if the delivery of the item is not within the PDC, then it is not processed. This slows down the project further,” says a scientist.

{This is the underlaying circumstances for the 3 out of 4 failures. Inadequate time and more than that money which prevent ground testing, CFD, simulations etc.}

(The writer tweets @writetake.)

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1651801

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Jan 2017 23:32

prasannasimha: your birdie was right all along

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 13 Jan 2017 23:54

^ Yes that is what I also thought when I read it however it was also interesting to see how some dismissed the possibility.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jan 2017 00:17

I did dismiss it because all reports said that it flew for one to two minutes. Looks like this test did not last two minutes. The missile would have started rolling at around 14 seconds. If the rolling could not be arrested, the unpowered missile was basically a ballistic projectile. Starting at an apex of about a thousand feet, it would have hit the sea within ten odd seconds.

I also dismissed it because I can't believe that the QC can miss such a case. This is a case of, "for want of a nail" ...

Anyways, prasanna ji your paan walla is a keeper. Rout's report was more despondent than necessary. This problem should not be too difficult to fix.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Jan 2017 00:33

So all the bollywood masala of rift between ADE and Missile complex was garbage after all.

During the fourth recent flight, the wing appears to have rubbed against a supporting bush and was held in that position for a short duration of time, which caused a pause in the deployment process. “The video from the 4th flight and the telemetry data clearly show the pause,” says the official.

That must be so difficult for the team. The entire test and valuable mission data lost because of failure of something relatively mundane ( among the scheme of other things associated with the missile)

But what is really depressing after reading about the other tests in the article is that after some 3 decades of IGMDP , the QA process isn't something sacred but still has a "chalta hain" attitude. I blame the paisa pinching attitude from GoI for all this. Scientists,engineers & technicians forced to cut corners to go for cheaper/faster options to meet deadlines and pressurizeded into delivering. Worse, the lot are at the mercy of those who have no clue about the technical part but control financing.

Insiders in ADE say that inadequate PDCs are killing the project. “More time and money should be given for this project. Repeated extension of the project with incremental PDCs makes it impossible for the team to effectively process procurements and outsourced developments within available time-frame. Whenever procurement is cleared, if the delivery of the item is not within the PDC, then it is not processed. This slows down the project further,” says a scientist.

You would imagine that this is financed well and scientists are given freedom to do a lot more tests to study and play with it to gather a lot of data. This after all could be the basis for a range of variants.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jan 2017 00:37

Indranil wrote:This problem should not be too difficult to fix.

I hope you are right but am alittle skeptical. If that is indeed the case why the issue about timeline for June 2018 not long enough?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jan 2017 04:15

Ah! But there is no smoke without fire.
If Hemant Rout suggested some acrimony, then something has been going on.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Jan 2017 04:39

Gagan wrote:Ah! But there is no smoke without fire.
If Hemant Rout suggested some acrimony, then something has been going on.

Who knows. There might not be. It might be the unnamed source could possible be a habitual whiner and needs to feel heard and that's why he also talking when he shouldn't be to rout or Rout could be embellishing for higher readcount.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Jan 2017 05:50

20 million dollars spent on a national project of such high significance in the last 12 years. Wow! Wow! Wow!

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 14 Jan 2017 05:54

^^^still higher than the zero loss in coal scam.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Jan 2017 06:01

So the reports of "utter failure" and another talk of closing down the programme are all rubbish? I mean if only the delay in wing deployment causes the failure then it is something that can be fixed. Right?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2017 06:09

Of course it can. Stop believing DDM. My Brother, it is a wing deployment. That's it! No need for rhona dhona.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Jan 2017 06:14

I do not believe them, sir. Please see my earlier posts.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2017 07:10

First good the root cause is wing deployment mechanism.

I can easily see the recrimination. We didn't see the telemetry nor the video/animation driven by telemetry that caused the range safety to destruct the test vehicle. Early quick look would show the rolling vehicle which the mind would say is due to the control package. Its the video which would show the partial wing deployment which caused the roll. Anyway its good they isolated the root cause. Now they need to dig deeper as to why the bushing was allowed out of spec. and take systematic corrective action.

I agree the PDC are pulled right out of the air and some higher authority should have stepped in.
Also world over they are called ECD (Estimated Completion Date). Why come up with new acronym?
One thing I didn't like is the reporter calling up director Aero (D) who has a lot to do during this investigation and writing as if D Aero owes him an input!!!! Would suggest D Aero change his cell number.

For Nirbhay, the booster comes from ASL (Hyderabad); while the thrust vector control system and INS is from RCI (Hyderabad) and the launcher from R&D Engineers (Pune). The booster is designed by ASL (Hyderabad); the propellant comes from HEMRL (Pune) and the power plant is from a foreign source. The missile’s total system design and integration is done at ADE, Bengaluru.

Very good usage of resources and subject/domain knowledge expertise. The pyro bolts for separation are also from ARDE?

some one asked me why didnt the INS recover once the wing came back. Once frame of reference is lost its lost. So my analogy was the partial wing spun the missile and cause loss of frame of reference. Its like spinning a person in a dark room and telling him to head to the door without lights on.

There is no GPS to realign. And don't want it in a strategic weapon.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jan 2017 07:39

Folks was the NOTAM for the Guided Pinaka! Where are the low level Astra tests? The NOTAM expires on 14 Jan 2017!!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jan 2017 07:45

As a conventional strike weapon nirbhay should have backup glonass and irnss too