Understanding US thread-III

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 25 Jan 2017 22:04

We are giving too much credibility to the idea that US deep state can hurt India. The closest they can come to to finish off our leader, but even then nothing will come of it. Soros was pleading the project syndicate diatribe to take his perspective seriously. The Americans have bigger problems- loss of civil society, degeneration of instiutions, debasement of monetary status among the few.

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 25 Jan 2017 22:14

The average donations to EJ charities and NGOs operating outside unkil from unkils public and govt was about 210 Billion $ / year last time i checked.

They can do a lot of damage with that money. Although it is bound to have lower influence in the coming decades. If we hang on to about 2030 without much damage and growing at the rate we are....we would have crossed the boundary of invincibility from external threats imho.

Falijee · Post by **Falijee** » 25 Jan 2017 22:21

Obama defies US Congress In His Last Hours !

US sent $221 million to Palestinians in Obama's last hours

WASHINGTON (AP) — Officials say the Obama administration in its waning hours defied Republican opposition and quietly released $221 million to the Palestinian Authority that GOP members of Congress had been blocking.A State Department official and several congressional aides said the outgoing administration formally notified Congress it would spend the money Friday morning. The official said former Secretary of State John Kerry had informed some lawmakers of the move shortly before he left the State Department for the last time Thursday. The aides said written notification dated Jan. 20 was sent to Congress just hours before Donald Trump took the oath of office.

The last-minute allocation also contained $1.05 million in funding for the State Department's Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan office and the Bureau of South and Central Asian Affairs.

The Palestinian funding is likely to draw anger from some in Congress as well as the Trump White House. Trump has vowed to be a strong supporter of Israel and has invited Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to visit Washington next month.He has also pledged to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, although White House spokesman Sean Spicer said Monday a final decision on that had yet to be made. Despite speculation in Israel that an announcement of the move is imminent, Spicer said the decision-making process is only in its very early stages."If it was already a decision, then we wouldn't be going through a process," Spicer told reporters.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jan 2017 22:32

LokeshC wrote:The average donations to EJ charities and NGOs operating outside unkil from unkils public and govt was about 210 Billion $ / year last time i checked.

They can do a lot of damage with that money. Although it is bound to have lower influence in the coming decades. If we hang on to about 2030 without much damage and growing at the rate we are....we would have crossed the boundary of invincibility from external threats imho.

In 2030 India would be the largest populated nation on earth
The EJ charities will increase under Trump and they will go worldwide.
India has to protect itself and expand worldwide on trade and commerce.

India will be under lot of pressure if Indian GDP does not grow

In 2030 India would have the most dangerous enemies in the neighborhood at the borders

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Jan 2017 22:43

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jan 2017 23:06

Lalmohan wrote:there were a lot of reports around election time that no evidence of illegal voting was found - by the various state and federal election commissioners. I expect that this paper took legal advice before using the term "fraudulent"... but to be seen

Err...if that is the standard they somehow forgot about it when reporting on the charges against Modi....or perhaps I did not notice it ? Can you pass on the link where NYT talks about Teesta Setalvad's fraudulent charges ?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 25 Jan 2017 23:10

"Once the hegemon attacks a system it created, only two outcomes seem at all likely—its collapse or recreation of the system around a new hegemon".

http://equitablegrowth.org/equitablog/m ... alisation/

----

If the latter, the new hegemon would likely be China; and that cannot be good for India. Of course, there is a tiny possibility that India could emerge as the new hegemon, but the economic and military weight now and over the next four years is not currently up to the task.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 25 Jan 2017 23:16

New brf rule - trump can claim anything. Media cannot call it as fraudulent because said media has lied about modi.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jan 2017 23:28

Gus wrote:New brf rule - trump can claim anything. Media cannot call it as fraudulent because said media has lied about modi.

Load of bullshit, that...

Media cannot be allowed to have double standards, especially where consequences of such slander / character assassination are high...there has to be legal recourse or means for driving said morons to bankruptcy. That's the point - the media has to be made accountable...Some bright soul expressed the same sentiments a few days back, if I am not wrong.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jan 2017 23:38

arjun - how are you leaping from my post about the US elections to Modi? I have made no assertions about reporting on the Indian elections...

and yes - the media has to be responsible (and much of it isn't) - but then so do politicians. trump has used falsehoods liberally through his campaign and continues to do so. it is the media's legitimate job to call him out on these

siddhu · Post by **siddhu** » 25 Jan 2017 23:45

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 25 Jan 2017 23:56

Lalmohan wrote:arjun - how are you leaping from my post about the US elections to Modi? I have made no assertions about reporting on the Indian elections...

What I have stated is fairly clear - it is a comment not on US elections but on NYT reporting standards....This rag needs to explain on what basis it uses the term "fraudulent assertion" for one of Trump's statements. Based on NYT explanation - I see a strong opening for either Trump OR Modi to consider legal options against it and make the world in general a happier and smarter place.

and yes - the media has to be responsible (and much of it isn't) - but then so do politicians. trump has used falsehoods liberally through his campaign and continues to do so. it is the media's legitimate job to call him out on these

Yes there needs to be accountability for all....for politicians that is generally thru the ballot box. For media, it better be the courts - thru some tightened and legally enforceable standards.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 00:07

clear to you maybe, but I'm not bright enough to follow your leap

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 26 Jan 2017 00:08

This Netherland thing is nothing. I have seen each and every US Presedent (from JFK and onward ) shouting from roofs about US first?US best country in the world,we are the best etc; Why to grill DT onlee. Heck even Uk leaders repeat in every speech about UK being the best in world etc.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 26 Jan 2017 00:27

Lalmohan wrote:clear to you maybe, but I'm not bright enough to follow your leap

oh, forgot that you are a democrat

If there is some journalistic standard that enables the NYT to pass judgement on Trump's statement, surely the same standard should have been applied in the past. And if by not applying the same standard the result has been character assassination or slander then surely that is the basis for a legal case ?

Chalo, I gotta go. Nuff said on this topic.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 26 Jan 2017 00:28

Singha wrote:

Australia is included on the wrong side.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 26 Jan 2017 00:50

Arjun wrote:
Gus wrote:New brf rule - trump can claim anything. Media cannot call it as fraudulent because said media has lied about modi.
Load of bullshit, that...

Media cannot be allowed to have double standards, especially where consequences of such slander / character assassination are high...there has to be legal recourse or means for driving said morons to bankruptcy. That's the point - the media has to be made accountable...Some bright soul expressed the same sentiments a few days back, if I am not wrong.

New brf rule - modified: No media can ever report anything Trump says ever as lies because media cannot be allowed to have double standards. Or George Soros. Or something like that. Now shut up.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 01:12

Gus, Curious why you keep bringing in brf in your rules?

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 26 Jan 2017 01:30

Troll is back

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 26 Jan 2017 01:46

I think as far as DT is concerned, we need to watch what he does and says about Pakistan. He has shown willingness to do what he says until now instead of beginning to distance away.

Will he continue to fund Pakistan? If so, then how will he justify it? If not, then what are the implications?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Jan 2017 01:48

Bannon registered to vote in 2 states!!

There u go! Isn't THAT clear evidence of voter fraud, hain? Are only donkeys allowed to do fraud, hain? Trump stands vindicated, and now he can sue the pants off the NYT reporter. Surely he didn't say WHO was doing the fraud, did he?

Probably it was Obama's Russian hackers who signed Bannon up in multiple states. Do they know for sure that it was REALLY Bannon who signed up, not, say, Bill Clinton?

Also, just because someone has the name "steve bannon" (I suppose there's only one in the US with that name?) doesn't tell you which way he would vote, does it? Maybe it was Podesta who signed up as Bannon here, Spicer there, Kell Anne still somewhere else. Come to think of it, why do I assume that Podesta would vote for One Party and not the Other Party?

Once again, we see ppl of One Political Leaning make these huge leaps across logic and land in pakistan.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 26 Jan 2017 01:52

Lalmohan wrote:emerging news of steve bannon having registered to vote in more than one state... waiting for the explanation for this one!!

Steven Mnuchin. Not Bannon.

As for Trump's claims about millions of illegal votes, two things come to mind
1. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence of which no one from his administration has provided any.
2. If he is serious, he should order an investigation forthwith, since this would be a crime of "yuuge" proportions. Not ordering an investigation would be grossly inappropriate on Trump's part. Unless of course, he was pulling it out of his musharraf like so many other things during the campaign.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Jan 2017 02:26

Question: What evidence has anyone here seen, that Russia hacked the US elections and influenced them? Genuinely curious, because I have seen none. Someone claimed "some hacking was done with a keyboard that had Cyrillic Characters". So what? Probably Ukrainian. Or Chinese. Or CIA. Or no one: we did not see this keyboard, or the evidence. Just hearsay.

The Greens Party, with all of 0.01% of the vote, was sufficiently perturbed about perceived election fraud, to raise $6M and give it various States to order recounts. They went to court over the same and spent more $$. The Democrat Party fully supported their campaign in this.

AFAIK, they did not introduce any "evidence" that the machines were kaput. But there was nothing, was there? The recounts showed pretty-much exact repetitions. I didn't hear anyone calling the Greens and Democrats liars for bothering everyone with the recounts. Whiners, OK, but the LalMullah says Whining Is The American Way. Hu am I 2 disagree?

But why is it wrong for others to also have some suspicions without "producing evidence"? Huge amounts of tax dollars are paid to various Investigating Agencies. It is their job to produce evidence etc. Where did CNN get the notion that victims have to produce evidence, deliver the criminals to court etc?

Now let's go back to voting day in Nevada. The polling booth in at least one locality was mysteriously kept open for several hours beyond the lawful closing time, with people pouring into the line (totally against the rules). So who were these and why were they coming then? They were certainly illegal VOTERS, but were they aliens? Does that make them illegal aliens?
As for California, the suspicion was there loooong before election day. Open secret. If I heard it, then it had to be.

BTW, he HAS ordered an investigation. By whom, I have no clue. Maybe by FOXNews. Or the Christian Science Monitor. Or the Eph Bee Aye. Would you vouch for the standards of any of these over any others?

bhalluka · Post by **bhalluka** » 26 Jan 2017 02:29

Wow! Things are moving fast.

Trump's Next Executive Orders: "Drastically Reducing" US Role In International Organizations, Ending Treaties

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-2 ... ganization

This has to be good for India and returning the world to the 4000 year old civilizational mean.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2017 02:31

I think by 2020 election some form of voter identification has to be brought in.

One troubling thing is the multi-uty level study of 2010 and 2012 elections with a lot of hedging suggested there could have been some fraud. See I used many weasel words to not upset our resident Democrat supports.

Now if those elections were a trial run, what prevents similar tactics in states with similar milieu?

UB known admitted cases are 1960 elections in Chicago and Texas had real fraud.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Jan 2017 02:33

Per Sub Swamy, election machines are inherently fraudulent.

Of the crooked, by the crooked, for the crooked.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 26 Jan 2017 02:36

How do these Exec Orders work? Do they become invalid unless COTUS approves them within X months? Or do they stay until& unless repealed by COTUS or SCOTUS? Looks like one can get most of one wants, done b4 anyone gets around to those things. Like deportations. and executions. Quite Permanent, too.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 26 Jan 2017 02:57

ramana wrote:Gus, Curious why you keep bringing in brf in your rules?

because one current mod, one ex mod, and several senior member say stuff - in response to a demonstrably fraudulent trump claim that millions of illegals voted is

- NYT is no more reporting news, it is passing off its opinion as fact.
- I have never seen such vicious infantile behavior from the US media, let alone the hordes of whiners.
- Can you pass on the link where NYT talks about Teesta Setalvad's fraudulent charges ?,
- forgot that you are a democrat

I thought arguments should be looked at its own merit. Trump makes claim that millions of illegals voted. This is ...just false. There is zero evidence. But apparently media should not call it as fraudulent, because media have lied in various things.

But I forget, this is the new brf. Apparently brfites are also not allowed to post any contrary opinion.Now if you don't join the chorus, you get "Troll is back". And a senior mod comes asking curious questions ignoring all else that goes on...

I know I am not welcome here...Apologies..I try to ignore this thread and not post. I will try harder. Please go ahead and ban if you want to..

komal · Post by **komal** » 26 Jan 2017 03:54

bhalluka wrote:Wow! Things are moving fast.

Trump's Next Executive Orders: "Drastically Reducing" US Role In International Organizations, Ending Treaties

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-2 ... ganization

This has to be good for India and returning the world to the 4000 year old civilizational mean.

A lot of eywash. Nothing is happening. Lot of headlines to make his followers happy. USA controls the world through these organizations.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 04:12

Arjun wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:clear to you maybe, but I'm not bright enough to follow your leap
oh, forgot that you are a democrat

no i am not, i do not affiliate to any political party, but i am centre-right on most issues and centre-left on some. and since i don't live in the US there is no alignment to any US political grouping. brf as a whole is right-right-centre but i see that a lot of people here are right^4-centre... which frankly when you are a dark minority in a white country - sounds quite amusing to me.

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 26 Jan 2017 04:13

snahata wrote:Troll is back

^
snahata ji,
Whats the use of this post ?
First post since a while for a poster & you are immediately dishing out personal attacks ?!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 26 Jan 2017 04:16

UlanBatori wrote: Once again, we see ppl of One Political Leaning make these huge leaps across logic and land in pakistan.

over reach and massive extrapolation... and frankly you can do better

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 26 Jan 2017 04:20

Gus wrote:But I forget, this is the new brf. Apparently brfites are also not allowed to post any contrary opinion.Now if you don't join the chorus, you get "Troll is back". And a senior mod comes asking curious questions ignoring all else that goes on...

I know I am not welcome here...Apologies..I try to ignore this thread and not post. I will try harder. Please go ahead and ban if you want to..

It's not that contrarian opinions aren't welcome, but that the focus on one orange faced guy is getting tiresome. This isn't a critique of your posting as such, and I have no dog in the US political fight personally.

What's the end game here, though ? Do people go on talking about Trump until Jan 20 2021 ? When does talk about election 2016 stop ? When does talk about various things he said or did, stop ? What good does that talk do for this site ? The conversation so far can be summarized as 'there are two groups of people with very hard positions about one funny looking guy'. That's not new understanding. People had the same opinion of Trump back when he known for running a TV show and theatrically firing people on it.

Let's say tomorrow Trump says/does something new. How does an impassioned discussion on that here benefit this site or anyone, including those commenting ? The SNR is trending so close to zero through this entire electoral process that any debate on the topic here is indistinguishable from that anywhere else like comments on WaPo/NYT/YahooNews or anywhere else. Except we have additional soothsayers claiming 'Trump will be great/terrible for India! Mark my words!'

The whole thing is quite revealing in the sense that one guy can get so many people so emotional or even divide them like that. I think Trumpullah is a genius that way. He can get people far away to do or say things to other people far away, just like that. Why do we let ourselves be wrapped around his ungli like that, though ?

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 26 Jan 2017 05:47

The whole thing is quite revealing in the sense that one guy can get so many people so emotional or even divide them like that

That's nothing. Did you see what he did saturday: got millions of wimmins to get off their butts and go for a walk. Improved wimmins health already, and allowed some of their long suffering SO's some peace and quiet

. Only tragedy was there was no football game that day

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Jan 2017 08:40

MurthyB wrote: That's nothing. Did you see what he did saturday: got millions of wimmins to get off their butts and go for a walk. Improved wimmins health already, and allowed some of their long suffering SO's some peace and quiet . Only tragedy was there was no football game that day

Actually there was hardly any room left to walk, the crowd was 3 times bigger than the Trump inauguration numbers it filled the entire space. Samething happened in Chicago too, the crowd was lot bigger than the area of march and thus march was converted into a rally.

disha · Post by **disha** » 26 Jan 2017 09:42

It is interesting that there is much debate going on the 3M voters in US who one prez candidate says one and other says are fraud or illegal.

Of course any suggestion that there might be some kernel of truth in the allegation that 3M voters could actually be illegal immigrants who legalized themselves in US and voted one way is never entertained and in fact vociferously shot down. And demands for proof are asked.

Let us do a small quiz before we go further on the facts.

Q. If I were to ask you how many percentage of latino population are illegal immigrants. That is take 10 latinos., if you think 2 out of 10 are illegal then your answer is 20%.

Ans:
1. <5%
2. 10%
3. 20%
4. 40%
5. >40%

If your answer is 2,3,4 or 5., then you *have* to believe Trump. The numbers are terrible.

Of course distaste of trump should not mean you change back your answer to option #1 above! Since even if 2% of latinos are illegal., then you still lend a credible nod towards Trump

Before blowing your steam., one has to chew the following facts:

1. Hispanic popln in US rose from 12% to 17% of the total popln. Note that the asian and the black population share remained almost same. Total latino population as of today stands at 55 M.

2. Since 1960s., the latino population has grown 9x. From 6M to 55M., it will be ridiculous if somebody states that this growth is only due to natively born latino popln

. In effect significant growth of the latino population is actually illegal immigrants. Yes., just because they could vote and find themselves in electoral lists does not make them legal.

Now take this map of latino population by county http://www.pewhispanic.org/2016/09/08/l ... graphy-03/ and map it to 2016 elections votes by county - a distinct trend emerges.

3. Here is another breakdown of latinos: California (15 million), Texas (10 million), Florida (5 million), New York (4 million) and Illinois (2 million).

Note the numbers about are rounded. Some will call me a 5th grader by pointing out that florida actually has 4.8 M and hence the entire set invalidated. But that is of course besides the point., If you (3rd party you) look at the total number - 36 Million, they are still just 65% of the hispanic population.

If 20% of them are illegal (2 in 10)., that will mean that 7million latinos are illegal and if 20% of them somehow got on the voter roles (yes they can get)., then we are talking about 1.4 million illegal voters. Of course not all latinos are adult., another way to look at it is only 27 million are legal citizens., leaving 38 million as illegal citizens. Assuming that 5% of them are adults and are on voter roles., you have @2 million illegal voters.

California as of today is majority latino., that is the total latino popln >50% in CA. Next state to be latino majority will be New Mexico followed by Arizona and Nevada & Texas. Of course the order can be different - based on the growth of each state but demographically, all of those states are doomed to be latino majority by 2040.

--

So I hope people who mindlessly scoff at Trump come back with real data and prove that there is ZERO illegal voters in the voter list. Note that voter list can be manipulated at county, district and block level. Yes, several kinds of electoral malpractices were invented in US first. Let us get this straight., just because US Congress can set up a commission to ensure free-&-fair elections in other countries does not mean that their own record is spotless. And so far the only news we hear and thus assume is voter suppression of 'minorities' (black/asian)., but guess what - the new minorities are asian, black & increasingly white and their voices are getting suppressed!

disha · Post by **disha** » 26 Jan 2017 09:44

Gus wrote:New brf rule - modified: No media can ever report anything Trump says ever as lies because media cannot be allowed to have double standards. Or George Soros. Or something like that. Now shut up.

Gus'ji - will I be allowed to say that @2Million latinos on the voter list of US are illegal?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 26 Jan 2017 10:26

ramana wrote:I think by 2020 election some form of voter identification has to be brought in.

One troubling thing is the multi-uty level study of 2010 and 2012 elections with a lot of hedging suggested there could have been some fraud. See I used many weasel words to not upset our resident Democrat supports.

Now if those elections were a trial run, what prevents similar tactics in states with similar milieu?

UB known admitted cases are 1960 elections in Chicago and Texas had real fraud.

Absolutely.

Why can't the US implement a positive voter identification system like there is India? More than 700 million people voted and presented positive photo voter identification. Yes, it too some 7-9 years to implement and it still has some gaps, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of not have positive voter identification.

disha · Post by **disha** » 26 Jan 2017 11:19

Mort Walker wrote: Absolutely.

Why can't the US implement a positive voter identification system like there is India? More than 700 million people voted and presented positive photo voter identification. Yes, it too some 7-9 years to implement and it still has some gaps, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of not have positive voter identification.

Part of the problem is that due to pseudo-federalism., the state laws for voter identification are choppy and there is complete non-uniformity.

Asking for a common, strict voter identification law and a process is actually a third rail. Is trump trying to set off the process to touch the third rail? I do not know., but this is the only chance.

California., the largest state in the union has a no-photo-id requirement to cast a ballot. As long as you are in the voter list and you can prove that the address in the voter list is where you are currently residing (utility bill for example) you are good to cast ballot. In fact you can even cast a provisional ballot if you can prove the name but not the address. This is ridiculous to say the least., but this is the current situation.

Voter list mischief is very high. For example., to register as a voter in California - all one needs:

Driver license or CA id <- This one is not mandatory either...
Your SSN &
Your date of birth.

So it is just fair to say that the room for voter fraud is immense., for example getting a DL (once you have SSN & DoB you can get DL) itself gets you into voter list immediately and that is one reason why several latinos aim for a driver's license.

Given the above now., I would like to hear how there are ZERO illegal citizens who voted. I gave my numbers above., can somebody take up and prove that ZERO illegal citizens voted. And if they admit that there is indeed "some voter fraud" in that "illegals did vote in this as well as past elections"., the onus is on them to prove that the illegal citizen voting is not in millions.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 26 Jan 2017 11:25

Why can't the US implement a positive voter identification system like there is India? More than 700 million people voted and presented positive photo voter identification. Yes, it too some 7-9 years to implement and it still has some gaps, but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages of not have positive voter identification.

because it is a tool of racism and will be used to keep minorities from voting.

everybody knows this.

historically the southern states employed laws like poll taxes and literacy tests to keep minorities from voting.

therefore they will also use photo ID for the same purpose,

that's the liberal viewpoint anyway..........